Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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RajeshA
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from "off-topic thread"
sudarshan wrote:Like the kheer drunk by Dasharatha's wives, which is also a recurring theme in many of the other stories.
In Valmiki's Ramayana, the word used is पायसम् (paayasam).

The relevant portion on pregnancy is in Baala Kanda, Sarga 16

ततस्तु ताः प्राश्य तद् उत्तम स्त्रियो
महीपतेः उत्तम पायसम् पृथक् |
हुताशन आदित्य समान तेजसः
अचिरेण गर्भान् प्रतिपेदिरे तदा || १-१६-३१


The relevant words are प्राश्य (praasya) and पायसम् (paayasam). प्राश्य means on consuming, and पायसम् is translated as dessert.

The question is "consuming" in what way? What kind of dessert was it?

It does not say that they ate it. And everything that looks like kheer may not be kheer.

Every era has its legitimate ways of solving problems.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

Paayasam is a common enough dessert in tamizh brahmana houses and comes in many varieties-paal(milk) paayasam,kadalaiparappu(channa dal),semiya,vellam(jaggery-gud),moong dal(payitham paruppu).Boil the rice and/or pulses in water and add sugar or jaggery/milk.Add cardomom,cashew,saffron,dry grapes etc.

It is standard naivedyam for Iswara on auspicious/festive occasions.Has the paayasam evolved from Ramayanam days,is it the same ?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

In Bengali paayas = kheer.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by shaardula »

ramana,
transcript of the parts which i was referring to..
according to the story, all the prominent warriors f the time were involved in the battle of kurukshetra. which prolly was infact an internal war between the kshatriya clans. but this has been understood as, and given the stature of, an end of an epoch type of war. this war ended the system of governance based on small local kshatriya clans, so that in the middle ganga region a centralized aristocracy system could be established.
for this reason, the purport and wails of kurushkhetra are not merely the wails at the loss of kith and kin, it is also a wail of the end of a society and system ~ samaaja. and then another unique aspect of this war is that, this is the first war for sovereignty over land, the vedic wars before this used to be over live stock. but here for the first time, overlordship of land is important. the land has become the most important asset, to the extent that even the relatives and clans become enemies (in a previously clannish society).

for these reasons, the end of this war is also considered the beginning of a new era (kali yuga). this represents the confusion and chaos of changing times and systems. even later on whenever, big clans were nullified or big social upheavels happened it was attributed to kaliyuga.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by sudarshan »

RajeshA wrote:Continuing from "off-topic thread"
sudarshan wrote:Like the kheer drunk by Dasharatha's wives, which is also a recurring theme in many of the other stories.
In Valmiki's Ramayana, the word used is पायसम् (paayasam).

The relevant portion on pregnancy is in Baala Kanda, Sarga 16

ततस्तु ताः प्राश्य तद् उत्तम स्त्रियो
महीपतेः उत्तम पायसम् पृथक् |
हुताशन आदित्य समान तेजसः
अचिरेण गर्भान् प्रतिपेदिरे तदा || १-१६-३१


The relevant words are प्राश्य (praasya) and पायसम् (paayasam). प्राश्य means on consuming, and पायसम् is translated as dessert.

The question is "consuming" in what way? What kind of dessert was it?

It does not say that they ate it. And everything that looks like kheer may not be kheer.

Every era has its legitimate ways of solving problems.
The interesting thing is with the description of how Kaushalya first consumed (in whatever way) part of the offering, then passed it to Sumitra, who passed it on to Kaikeyi, who passed it back to Sumitra. So Sumitra ends up with two boys - Lakshman and Shatrugan. Meaning, her share somehow counted as a double dose. Was it because of the time delay, or did she really consume twice as much as the other two? Meaning if one of the women had consumed all of it, she'd have got four boys?

These are the kinds of details that are hard to account for, when you try to see if there could be some deeper physical or biological meaning behind the legends.

BTW, another potential jarring detail could be the fact that all four children were boys. What are the odds? One out of sixteen? Maybe not. I remember reading in a Reader's Digest article, that it's possible to control (to a large extent - not perfectly of course) the gender of your child. Apparently male children are more likely to develop in an acidic environment, and female in an alkaline one (or could be vice versa). There are also other factors which could affect the outcome. It's not entirely random.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by shaardula »

the middle men and king maker types get no love do they? duryodhana says, i lie here disabled and pathetic defeated by conceit on the battle field. what did bheema do, he only fulfilled his vow. the conceit was all of that deceiver of indra, that player of cosmic games since eternity, that ever so popular wily krishna through the mace of bheema is the one who brought an unconceited man of honour like me to this state.

gaandhaari visits vyshampaayana
duryodhana: much as it hurts to be disabled like this, bheema by dragging me by my hair and striking me on the groin has even taken my ability to reach upto my elders and prostrate before them.

really moving is when duryodhan's son wants to sit his father's injured lap. there are symbolisms and then there are symbolisms. can the son fulfil his father's duties?

duryodhana finally says, listen son like you served me, serve the pandavas. listen to the honorable mother kunti. pay the same respect to subhadra and draupadi as you do to your mother. remember son honour above everything else. you father himself has fallen to an honorable opponent no shame in that.

D-man was something.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Muppalla »

abhishek_sharma wrote:In Bengali paayas = kheer.
In Telugu it is paayasam. In some dialects of Hindi also it is paayas.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sushupti »

RajeshA wrote:Continuing from "off-topic thread"
sudarshan wrote:Like the kheer drunk by Dasharatha's wives, which is also a recurring theme in many of the other stories.
In Valmiki's Ramayana, the word used is पायसम् (paayasam).

The relevant portion on pregnancy is in Baala Kanda, Sarga 16

ततस्तु ताः प्राश्य तद् उत्तम स्त्रियो
महीपतेः उत्तम पायसम् पृथक् |
हुताशन आदित्य समान तेजसः
अचिरेण गर्भान् प्रतिपेदिरे तदा || १-१६-३१


The relevant words are प्राश्य (praasya) and पायसम् (paayasam). प्राश्य means on consuming, and पायसम् is translated as dessert.

The question is "consuming" in what way? What kind of dessert was it?

It does not say that they ate it. And everything that looks like kheer may not be kheer.

Every era has its legitimate ways of solving problems.
It is kheer. In "Payasam" or Paayas, "Paya" mean milk.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RajeshA »

Sushupti wrote:It is kheer. In "Payasam" or Paayas, "Paya" mean milk.
Sure it can be kheer. I just proposed that the word "kheer" may be being used figuratively.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RajeshA »

sudarshan wrote:The interesting thing is with the description of how Kaushalya first consumed (in whatever way) part of the offering, then passed it to Sumitra, who passed it on to Kaikeyi, who passed it back to Sumitra. So Sumitra ends up with two boys - Lakshman and Shatrugan. Meaning, her share somehow counted as a double dose. Was it because of the time delay, or did she really consume twice as much as the other two? Meaning if one of the women had consumed all of it, she'd have got four boys?
Dhasharatha distributes the kheer.

1) Kaushalaya gets half of the kheer (one-half)
2) Sumitra gets half of rest half (one-fourth)
3) Kaikeye gets half of the rest fourth (one-eighth)
4) Sumitra gets the rest (one-eighth)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by member_22872 »

Is giving birth to number of children proportional to the amount of kheer consumed? it is magical kheer no? just consuming a drop should be sufficient?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RajeshA »

There is a lot of symbolism here, and all this symbolism is not clear to us today.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Prem »

RajeshA wrote:There is a lot of symbolism here, and all this symbolism is not clear to us today.
Got Milk Kind of symbolism By Chance?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Vayutuvan »

abhishek_sharma wrote:In Bengali paayas = kheer.
AS ji,

You might know this already - but the following maps the possible etymology of kheer

Code: Select all

              savarNa deergha sandhi              degeneration             simplification
ksheera anna -----------------------> ksheerAnna --------------> kheerAnna ---------------> kheer
ksheera = milk, anna = rice (or generically food)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

^^ Actually I did not know that. :oops: Thanks.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by sudarshan »

Speaking of Bhim's understated role in the MB, what was Shatrugan's role in the Ramayan? The focus is massively on Ram, Lakshman, and Bharat. Did poor Shatrugan have a role at all?

I'm extremely unfamiliar with the Ramayan, so this could well be a newbie question.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/SouthernRec.pdf

The link I promised. Standard disclaimers apply, his citing Witzel and other things would push buttons of some people. And of course his topic of Brahmin migrations will upset even more anti-AIT people......
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

I read five pages so far. I think its the Aryan-Dravidian drivel.

Two points.

Krishnaswamy Ayyangar in his Some contributions of South India to Indian history says its the Southern scholars from Kanchi who went to Benaras and revived Hinduism.

Second Nambudris are supposed to be from Andhradesa in the 7-8th centuries.

I really think above pdf should be in Distorted History thread and not in this thread.

So please move it there.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Atri, I get the feeling that the Ramayana should be read with the Shiva Purana.

What flummoxes me is Valmiki Ramayana is earlier than the Vyasa written Shiva Purana.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by member_20317 »

venug wrote:Is giving birth to number of children proportional to the amount of kheer consumed? it is magical kheer no? just consuming a drop should be sufficient?
Or it could be a prelude to the unfolding of the story. About the roles to be played by each of the brothers. So there you have it Shatrughn is the equivalent of Bharat. But still no role for him. Hein ji.

Anna == cereal. So could be that KsheerAnna may have been milk with any variety of cereal.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by shaardula »

or kheer may be euphemism? like EVV Satyanarayana and his use of fruits.

mat ksheera itself could be directly vulgarized to kheer, why do do we need ksheeraanna?
Last edited by shaardula on 14 Jun 2013 10:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

MB and Ramayana are not shy of stating things as they are.

Hanuman flight to Lanka.

Some king who is the real father of Satyavati.

So why would they use euphemism when they have not been shy of it in other locations?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

If this is about discussion, we cannot just take what we like and discard what does not suit our preconceived notions. Are there recessions or not?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by shaardula »

well prolly coz it fit the meter better? i dont know. but how many of known people have been conceived by kheer? i have a feeling it is symbolic.

completely out of context, much of our texts are allegoric and are meant to be read as such.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Vayutuvan »

shaardula wrote:or kheer may be euphemism? like EVV Satyanarayana and his use of fruits.

mat ksheera itself could be directly vulgarized to kheer, why do do we need ksheeraanna?
Did not occur to my slow mind. Yes it could be
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Nilesh Oak »

ramana wrote:Atri, I get the feeling that the Ramayana should be read with the Shiva Purana.

What flummoxes me is Valmiki Ramayana is earlier than the Vyasa written Shiva Purana.
Ramana Garu,

I have never read Shiv Purana, and thus was curious to understand your rational behind the suggestion of 'reading Ramayana along with Shiv Purana'
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

Ramana garu

Vyasa was perhaps a designation and many vyasa were there aft veda vyasa, like todays sankacharya and adya sankaracharya. There may be more than one ved vyasa
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

ramana wrote:MB and Ramayana are not shy of stating things as they are.

Hanuman flight to Lanka.

Some king who is the real father of Satyavati.

So why would they use euphemism when they have not been shy of it in other locations?
IN fact, Ramayana never says Hanumana "flew" to lanka while going.. It clearly says that Hanumana "returned" from lanka by flying. But while going, Valmiki describes how he was going towards lanka with his chest breaking the waves of ocean. It was a sneak operation. Hanumana would not have risked a dramatic entrance. Hence he was tortured by sea-dwelling creatures. While flying back, no sea-monsters touched him. I think he was swimming or boating towards lanka while going just to keep the stealth. but while returning, he had to hastiliy escape from Ravana's airforce after burning lanka and taking everyone by surprise. he had to hastily return to safety before Rakshasas woke up from shock and awe and start retaliating. hence the flight on return.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Atri wrote:
ramana wrote:MB and Ramayana are not shy of stating things as they are.

Hanuman flight to Lanka.

Some king who is the real father of Satyavati.

So why would they use euphemism when they have not been shy of it in other locations?
IN fact, Ramayana never says Hanumana "flew" to lanka while going.. It clearly says that Hanumana "returned" from lanka by flying. But while going, Valmiki describes how he was going towards lanka with his chest breaking the waves of ocean. It was a sneak operation. Hanumana would not have risked a dramatic entrance. Hence he was tortured by sea-dwelling creatures. While flying back, no sea-monsters touched him. I think he was swimming or boating towards lanka while going just to keep the stealth. but while returning, he had to hastiliy escape from Ravana's airforce after burning lanka and taking everyone by surprise. he had to hastily return to safety before Rakshasas woke up from shock and awe and start retaliating. hence the flight on return.
Atri ji,

That is indeed correct interpretation.
-----------------
Not all Vanara could fly and those who could had different capacities. How they actually did it (gliding?) is a problem to solve (mystery).
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

This is from PV Vartak's Vaastav Ramayana.. :)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Atri wrote:This is from PV Vartak's Vaastav Ramayana.. :)
Right.

On that point, I would encourage Ramana, Venug, et al to read English translation of P V Vartak's 'Vastav Ramayana'. I can not recall what the title of the book is in English..but it is worth the read for all seekers interested in Ramayana and specifically historicity (and its value in the context of Indian civilization) of it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by sudarshan »

Nilesh Oak wrote: Correct. I did say that 'Draupaid disrobing incident and subsequent supply of Sarees by Krishna' may not have been in the Vyasa Bharata.
So what we have as "Vyasa Bharata" today does show the incident, but it may have been inserted by somebody later? Do we have the *original* Vyasa Bharata in Sanskrit, or only commentaries or translations?
Nilesh Oak wrote: (3) Draupadi is pulled into the court (ekavastra and rajaswala) by Dushasan. By this time, all Pandavas have lost with each round of Dyuta (game of dice) and now it is turn of Draupadi. Draupadi asks all those present in the court..."If Yudhishthir has lost himself first, does he have right to wage Draupadi for the next round of game of dice?". All the members of the court become silent. ................At this point..text/verses related to Draupadi Vastraharan begin.. with Duryodhana asking Dushasan to make her nude and she praying to Govinda...etc." After this incident the text of MBH resumes.. with Vidura asking the court members ....to answer Draupadi's question. Vidur or any of the members (including Pandava) ...none of them refer to the mysterious/amazing/magical incident that took place right in front of them all.
This could also be a variation of cognitive dissonance? When something this amazing takes place, that shows an entire assembly in bad light as having gone against the "will of God" to such an extent that God himself had to intervene, it is also possible that all the folks there simply tuned out the incident and pretended like it never happened. A very rough example would be the treatment of Modi by the p-secs. First it is "there is nothing amazing about Gujarat's development." When that statement is proven wrong, the entire establishment simply dumps the statement as if it had never been made, and moves on to "malnutrition." When the stats are presented to disprove that, it becomes "the model cannot be scaled up to the rest of India." The malnutrition argument is forgotten as if it never even happened.

This is just a rough analogy. The human mind, however, is very capable of great deviousness, and certainly, an entire assembly is capable of tuning out a miraculous deed if it shows them in bad light.

I'm just trying to gauge the weight of the evidence in favor of your statement WRT the disrobing incident.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Vayutuvan »

sudarashan ji

> Do we have the *original* Vyasa Bharata in Sanskrit, or only commentaries or translations?

I took a look at the compilation and translation published by BORI, Pune.

Here is a quote from the following link
The Critical Edition of the Sanskrit Text: The Mahābhārata for the First Time Critically Edited, 19 vols. (Pune: Bhandarkar Oriental Institute, 1933-1966), edited by V. S. Sukthankar, S. K. Belvalkar, and P. L. Vaidya, general editors, and Franklin Edgerton, Raghu Vira, S. K. De, R. N. Dandekar, H. D. Velankar, V. G. Paranjpe, and R. D. Karmarkar. A massive editorial project which recorded the readings of hundreds of manuscripts and other forms of testimony from all over the Indian sub-continent and Indonesia. Begun in 1919 at the Bhandarkar Institute in Pune, Maharashtra, this edition was fundamentally shaped and guided by Sukthankar, who laid out his editorial map in his brilliant Prolegomena to the first volume of the edition. The project was controversial from the beginning: Several scholars have argued that the Mahābhārata textual tradition is too complex, too rooted in living, oral traditions, to be amenable to edition on the basis of principles developed in the more simply literary traditions of Western texts. These scholars judge the Pune text to be an unwarranted simplification of the tradition that has produced an artificial text that never existed for anyone at any time in the past. At the same time the Pune edition (though only in its complete version, that is, with its full apparatus) makes available not only the editorially determined critical text, but all the variants to that text and all the passages that were judged to be additions to the putative original text. This text is the basis of most contemporary Western scholarship on the Mahābhārata, but at the same time few such scholars, if any, take the critical edition simply at face value.
What I gathered form the prologue are the following:
  • - They collected several tALa patra recensions from various geographical regions - Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra, and and IIRC Gujarat, mainly.
    - It is not an easy read. Each page has several notes arising from recensions. Sometimes each shlOka is given in its various recensions.
In view of the above the question you posed is hard if not impossible to answer even from the source which supposedly is the one all the researchers use. IMVHO and all that.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Nilesh Oak »

^^^Matrimc, your understanding of critical edition is correct. What I like about it is that they write down (full apparatus) on each page all variants of each sholka, including those shloka they decided not to include in their so called critical edition. It is a gold mine for any researcher of Mahabharata.

I have look at least 4 (in reality they could be 3).. Gita press, BORI-Critical edition, Chitrashalala press which could be same as the 4th I referred to is by KinjawadekarShastri)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Sudarshan ji,

(1) Your theory of Cognitive dissonance is welcome addition. I do feel that it would be hard to corroborate (bad for the theory) and of course impossible to falsify (very bad for the theory) :)

(2) This theme -about 'divine intervention' or 'magical -awe inspiring incidents' and its discontinuation occurs in other places of MBH too.

For example...While Vishwarupa Darshana shown by Krishna to Arjuna ...was only for Arjuna to see and thus can be ignored.. Krishna also showed something similar when he was in Hastinapur on peace treaty. Apparently that was not enough for Dhritarashtra, Duryodhana, Karna etc. to realize that if such 'Universal avatar' is on Pandava side..they better agree to a settlement.

In fact, later on.. when Duryodhana send Uluka to Pandava camp just before the War begins... Duyrodhana asks Uluka to convey this message to Krishna..

"I know you showed some magic trick (referring to What Krishna showed -Vishwarupa.etc in Hastinapur court) when you were in Hastinapur. Anyone with magical knowledge can do such trick. But I am not fearful of such things and such things are of no use in fight. So come and fight and show us what you are made up of."
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Vikas »

Did Sanjay also see the vishwaroop of Sri Krishna while narrating events of MBH war.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Nilesh Oak »

VikasRaina wrote:Did Sanjay also see the vishwaroop of Sri Krishna while narrating events of MBH war.
Apparently he (Sanjay) did.

At least we can make a case for it, based on Bhagavad Gita 11:9-14, where Sanjay described what Arjuna saw.

However, other than these Shlok, What was Vishwarup Darshan is based on first person account of Arjuna (BhagvadGita 11:15-31) and Krishna's own descriptons (Bhagavad Gita 11:5:8, but also 11:47-49.

And while what exactly Arjuna saw (perceived) is anybody's guess.. Krishna explains it as Jnana-Darshan that became possible through Arjuna's devotion (trust) in Krishna. (Bhagvad Gita 11:54)
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Are we witnessing a case of sophisticated hypnotism? I wonder.
ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Nilesh Oak wrote:
Atri wrote:This is from PV Vartak's Vaastav Ramayana.. :)
Right.

On that point, I would encourage Ramana, Venug, et al to read English translation of P V Vartak's 'Vastav Ramayana'. I can not recall what the title of the book is in English..but it is worth the read for all seekers interested in Ramayana and specifically historicity (and its value in the context of Indian civilization) of it.

What would be the title and where can we get it?
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