Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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Atri
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

Pratyush wrote:Atri,

In my part of the county, not very far from Ayodhya. A good poet composer and singer is called Vyas and compared to Vyas muni not Valmiki. So it seems to me that even though MHB may have been composed by more then one man. Ramayana may well have been the work of one man.

JMT.
Yes, Ramayan is much more coherent than MBH. MBH itself mentions initial composition of a treatise called "Jay" with 24000 verses. Later it became 100000 verse long epic. The names like Sauti, Vaishampayan, Jaimini come up as co authors (or probable coauthors).

Hence, I put forth three possibilities. one has to accept Raama the way he is described by Valmiki, IMO. He was a historical king, IMHO, and Valmiki was his contemporary chronicler. He has mentioned Raam the way he saw it. Once we accept that, things get simpler.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

No evidence to back this up, but I have always had a feeling that the idea of Rama as an avatar of Vishnu was a later interpolation onto the original story. I think many disparate stories were meant to be unified with a coherent idea by Vishnu taking form on earth into these men. Has Rama always been linked to Vishnu?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Carl_T wrote:No evidence to back this up, but I have always had a feeling that the idea of Rama as an avatar of Vishnu was a later interpolation onto the original story. I think many disparate stories were meant to be unified with a coherent idea by Vishnu taking form on earth into these men. Has Rama always been linked to Vishnu?
Luckily we have access to the original "Valmeeki Ramayana" online and we can read it too :D unlike millions of "uneducated" and computer-illiterate Indians.

Read yourself at http://www.valmikiramayan.net/bala/sarg ... _frame.htm
evam uk{}taH suraiH sarvaiH cintayitvaa tato.abraviit |
hantaa ayam viditaH tasya vadhopaayo duraatmanaH || 1-15-12


When all the deities spoke to Brahma thus, he thought for a while and then said "Aha! The idea to kill that evil-minded Ravana is discerned. [1-15-12]

tena gandharva yakSaaNaam devataanaam cha rakSasaam |
avadhyo.asmi iti vaaguk{}taa tatheti uk{}tam ca tan mayaa || 1-15-13


"Ravana said while seeking boon that, 'I shall not be killed by gandharva-s, yaksha-s, or by gods, or by other demons...' and I also said 'so be it..." [1-15-13]

na akiirtayat avaj~naanaat tat rakSo maanuSaam tadaa |
tasmaat sa maanuSaat vadhyo mR^ityuH na anyo.asya vidyate || 1-15-14


"That demon did not express about humans then with his disrespect to them, and evidently his death does not occur otherwise." So said Brahma to gods. [1-15-14]


etat shrutvaa priyam vaakyam brahmaNaa samudaahR^itam |
devaa maharSayaH sarve prahR^iSTaaH te abhavan tadaa ||1-15-15

On hearing Brahmathe explaining himself , then all those gods and great sages became adequately happy. [1-15-15]

etasmin anantare viSNuH upayaato mahaadyutiH |
sh~Nkha cakra gadaa paaNiH piita vaasaa jagatpatiH || 1-115-16
vainateyam samaaruuhya bhaaskara toyadam yathaa |
tapta haaTaka keyuuro vandyamaanaH surottamaiH || 1-15-17


In the meanwhile the great resplendent Vishnu, the Lord of the Universe, arrived there mounted on his Eagle-vehicle Garuda, handling conch-shell, disc, and mace in his three of four hands, clad in yellow-ochre robes, wearing golden bracelets, and while best gods eulogised him, and his arrival there is like the arrival of sun mounted on black cloud to accord the gratuitous gift called the rain. [1-15-16, 17]

tataH padma palaashaaxaH kR^itvaa aatmaanam catu.rvidham || 1-15-31
pitaram rocayaamaasa tadaa dasharatham nR^ipam |


And then that lotus-petal-eyed one agreeing to manifest himself in fourfold way is predisposed towards Dasharatha to be his father. [1-15-31b, 32a]

tato naaraayaNo devo viSuNuH niyuk{}taH sura sattamaiH |
jaanan api suraan evam shlakSNam vacanam abraviit || 1-16-1


Later when the Omnipresent Narayana is thus nominated by best gods, and though he knows the outcome, he gently spoke these words to gods in this way. [1-16-1]

upaayaH ko vadhe tasya raakshsaadhipateH suraaH |
yam aham tam samaasthaaya nihanyaam R^iSi kaNTakam || 1-16-2


"What is the idea to eliminate that demon's chief Ravana, oh, gods, adopting which strategy I will have to eliminate that thorn in the side of sages?" Thus Vishnu asked the gods. [1-16-2]

evam uk{}taaH suraaH sarve pratyuucuH viSNum avyayam |
maanuSam ruupam aasthaaya raavaNam jahi sa.nyuge || 1-16-3


Asked thus all the gods said to that sempiternal Vishnu, "on assuming a human form, eliminate Ravana in a war." [1-16-3]

sa kR^itvaa nishcayam viSNuH aaman.htrya ca pitaamaham |
antardhaanam gato devaiH puujya maano maharShibhiH || 1-16-10


On taking a decision Vishnu took leave of Forefather Brahma, and vanished while he is still being extolled by gods and sages. [1-16-10]

tato vai yajamaanasya paavakaat atula prabham |
praadurbhuutam mahadbhuutam mahaaviiryam mahaabalam || 1-16-11


Then, from Fire of Altar Dasharatha's ritual there emerged a greatly vigorous and energetic Divine Being with an unparalleled resplendence, called yajna puruSa. [1-16-11]

kR^iSNam rak{}taambara dharam rak{}taaasyam dundubhi svanam |
snigdha haryakSa tanuja shmashru pravaram uurdhajam || 1-16-12


He is clad in black and red garments and his face is red and his voice resembled the drumbeat. His moustache and hairdo are soft like that of a lion's mane. [1-16-12]

divaakara samaaakaaram diipta anala shikhopamam |
tapta jaambuunadamayiim raajataanta paricChadaam || 1-16-14
divya paayasa sa.mpuurNaam paatriim patniim iva priyaam |
pragR^ihya vipulaam dor.hbhyaam svayam maayaamayiim iva || 1-16-15


That great ritual being personally brought a big golden vessel carrying it with both of his hands as if he would personally handle his own wife, which vessel is made from the molten gold and covered with a silver lid, and which appeared to be crafted out of a divine illusion, since it is dazzling like sun and glowing like the tongues of flame, and that vessel is full with the divine dessert. [1-16-14, 15]
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

I know it is written in the Valmiki Ramayana. Question is, was it always there? If it was always there in the particular edition, was Valmiki writing down an even older story?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

^ Selective acceptance huh, carl_T garu?

Indication of secularist world-view. One accepts the existence of Ravana and his Dalit history :P , but cannot accept Rama for what he is as depicted.

Secular Intellectualism at its best! This is what I was pointing at in that infamous "off-topic" thread to Archan-ji.

P.S: An honest advise Carl_T garu. You would be more happy and content if you do not believe/accept any part of Ramayana at all (like non-Indians) instead of 'selectively' accepting it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by negi »

Learned folks who wrote classics like Ramayana/Mahabharata might not have even thought that mofos in future would be twisting stuff and spinning tripe for petty interests.

Firstly the people who try to see a Dalit in every demon or asura in hindu mythology themselves are responsible for bringing down the 'dalits' of today, worst for pushing their agenda they have to first demonize and make a complete caricature out of the 'character' in question so that it fits into their fcked up worldview. In this case Ravana who was was a great Brahman and greatest of all shiv-bhakts of his times is being pulled down and shown as a demon and then this cast angle brought in to claim as to how upper casts and Brahmins have been doing injustice to the Dalits and then of course there is yet another elite group of ba$tards who use the same to further the Aryans vs the Dravidians tripe (irony is Ravana himself was a 'rishi' putra and knew all the four vedas :roll: ).
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by naren »

No need to worry. They have already failed in TN. Its bound to fail anywhere they try. Religion is a very sensitive nerve for the hindu - you touch that and you ruin your political career.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

From here: http://www.valmikiramayan.net/bala/sarg ... _frame.htm
Hindu mythology philosophy has no devils, but has only raakshasa-s, who can hardly be called demons, either. Not all the raakshasa-s are evil-doers. Some of the raakshasa-s are the fallen angels who take birth as mortals. They have their Vedic education, and they perform Vedic rituals and penance etc., thereby they get the patronage of any one of the gods among the Hindu Trinity, viz., Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. On attaining the cherished boons, they suddenly revolt against their own patron deities and commence the atrocities only to conquer the Heavens, knowing well that they cannot be attained with a mortal body. In order to snub the upsurge of such violence or the unnatural ascension to Heaven, the deity who gave the boons seeks the help of any of the other two of the Trinity. Then one from the Trinity will take birth as mortal, as an incarnation of god on earth. Usually Vishnu incarnates himself to eradicate the evils created by the intrepid raakshasa-s.

Here the celestials bring in a preamble for Vishnu's incarnation as Rama and thus the topic of Ravana occurs in this chapter of Ramayana. Ravana need not be taken as an evil spirit, devil, hobgoblin or a monstrous being. He is said to be a Brahman well versed in all Vedas, musicologist, and a great king of Lanka, with unlimited riches, and very many of his clansmen with their vast dominions, and what not. Though Brahma and Shiva bless Ravana with boons, Ravana flouts all the norms in conquering Heavens in which course he did not hesitate to torture anyone who becomes his personal hurdle or hindrance. Hence it is inevitable for the Trinity to curb Ravana's atrocities, and Vishnu will now be requested by all the deities to incarnate himself on earth. As such, the expression of the word "DEMON" may not always be taken as an ugly and monstrous looking devil or Satan, as per the usual religious conceptualisation of evil.

In Hinduism evil is not a separate entity from humans, but available in the same personification and resides along with virtue, like the two sides of a coin. These raakshasa-s are also mortals, extraordinary beings with extraordinary powers like god incarnates. But, with wickedness in their will, monstrosity in mind and a conqueror's ambition in their heart, they are rendered themselves as demons.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

RamaY wrote:^ Selective acceptance huh, carl_T garu?

Indication of secularist world-view. One accepts the existence of Ravana and his Dalit history :P , but cannot accept Rama for what he is as depicted.

Secular Intellectualism at its best! This is what I was pointing at in that infamous "off-topic" thread to Archan-ji.

P.S: An honest advise Carl_T garu. You would be more happy and content if you do not believe/accept any part of Ramayana at all (like non-Indians) instead of 'selectively' accepting it.
Would you mind pointing out exactly where I have accepted "existence of Ravana and his Dalit history"? Let's start from there. So now you imagine straw man arguments that I haven't made, and then you call my point as "secular intellectualism" based on those arguments. Brilliant logic! Looks like it is not just the pseudosecularists who fabricate evidence.


An honest question RamaY garu - Since your only responses to those who dare disagree with you are either "secularist" or "haven't read the Ramayan". Are we now to believe that only you have read the Ramayana? I'm still waiting for a response on the OT thread. Your only response there was as usual "read the Mahabharat"! Bravo.

As for the argument that "Ravana=dalit". That's an argument that has never been taken seriously among Ramayana scholars either in India or the west. Do you have any other straw man arguments you want to accuse me of?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Yayavar »

Carl_T wrote:I know it is written in the Valmiki Ramayana. Question is, was it always there? If it was always there in the particular edition, was Valmiki writing down an even older story?
What is the reason to doubt if it was in the oringinal? or, why do you think it is a later interpolation? I dont understand about 'older story'.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

Even I like to think of Raam, krishna etc as normal human beings and not Avataar of gods. They were historical figures who did something awesome and became what they are, slowly with time. But as far as literary evidence goes, the authors are unequivocal about their "status" as Vishnu's avataar. Ramayana makes it clear in the very verse which describes Rama's birth that he is Vishnu's incarnation.

Our system gives the necessary freedom to think of such characters as normal humans (in fact they were normal humans, even if they were Vishnu's incarnations, they were in human form, and hence had similar faculties and drawbacks as that of any other human being).

From PoV of many schools, they were as human and as divine as all of us. After all, what is the difference between Raam, Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, You and me? No difference whatsoever.. Sarvam Khalu idam Brahma.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

Carl_T wrote:No evidence to back this up, but I have always had a feeling that the idea of Rama as an avatar of Vishnu was a later interpolation onto the original story. I think many disparate stories were meant to be unified with a coherent idea by Vishnu taking form on earth into these men. Has Rama always been linked to Vishnu?
Vishnu was not a prominent deity in the Vedic times. He gets mentioned several times, but he does not share the same time on the stage like some of the other devas. Some scholars are of the opinion that Rama gained divinity in books that were added later. Other scholars believe some stories were introduced in the Bala Kanda later. The standardized text hence are supposed to contain verses that were interjected or added in different period. Valmiki is supposed to have know about Rama from Sage Narada; who gave an introduction of Rama and his story. IIRC, much of the physical characteristics of Rama are described by Narada. Valmiki composes Ramayana after the forest incident when one of the birds is killed by the hunter.

India has a rich history of deifying humans.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

viv wrote:
Carl_T wrote:I know it is written in the Valmiki Ramayana. Question is, was it always there? If it was always there in the particular edition, was Valmiki writing down an even older story?
What is the reason to doubt if it was in the oringinal? or, why do you think it is a later interpolation? I dont understand about 'older story'.
The oldest manuscript of the Ramayana we have is really not that old, about a thousand years or so IIRC. I think you would agree the story is older than that. Whether the Ramayana as it survives today is the same Ramayana that was told earlier is very much an open question.

As for Rama's connection to Visnu, for most of the Ramayana, Rama's nature as a incarnation of Vishnu is practically absent apart from a few references. In the first book there is the story of Visnu incarnating to earth. In the same book there are a few times when he is compared to Visnu. However, apart from a few such references, the core story makes hardly any, if at all, connections to Rama's nature as Visnu.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
You are referring to Bala Kandam. Some consider the entire Bala kandam to have been added, along with the last book. While others think select verses were interjected into Bala Kandam. Must be the verses that make him an incarnation of Vishnu.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by BajKhedawal »

I hope one of you gurus can answer a novice question

Can it be said that Vali, Sugriva, Tara, Gandhamadana, Nala, Neela, Mainda-Dvivida, Sushena, and Sarabha were friends of Hanumanji? how about Jambavanta?

Other than who gave birth to them where can i find characterization of Hanumanji's peers like Tara, Gandhamadana, Nala, etc?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Carl_T wrote: Would you mind pointing out exactly where I have accepted "existence of Ravana and his Dalit history"? Let's start from there. So now you imagine straw man arguments that I haven't made, and then you call my point as "secular intellectualism" based on those arguments. Brilliant logic! Looks like it is not just the pseudosecularists who fabricate evidence.


An honest question RamaY garu - Since your only responses to those who dare disagree with you are either "secularist" or "haven't read the Ramayan". Are we now to believe that only you have read the Ramayana? I'm still waiting for a response on the OT thread. Your only response there was as usual "read the Mahabharat"! Bravo.

As for the argument that "Ravana=dalit". That's an argument that has never been taken seriously among Ramayana scholars either in India or the west. Do you have any other straw man arguments you want to accuse me of?
Carl_T garu,

I am sorry if I appeared to impose that Ravana is a Dalit point. I didn't mean that way. I was pointing the inconsistencies.

I can really give the answers you have asked for, in fact some of those points were discussed in the early pages of this thread. But you claimed to have read ALL epics and puranas (I think it was managing paki failure thread or something like that - i can dig that for you).

All I am asking you is to not just READ those books. Understand them, question each scenario why a person like Drona/Krishna/Parasurama/Bhishma/Arjuna/Dharmaraja did what they have done. Try to analyze them and understand them. That is the way to read those books.

How could so many of us come to so many different conclusions after reading the same story? Where is the difference, in the story or in the reader???

I also owe you a good book on Bhagavatgita as well. I will give the details in the weekend.

On Mahabharata listen to this audio TELUGU commentary - it will give you some insight
http://www.surasa.net/music/purana/#mal ... rata_songs

It has audio pravachanas on
Valmiki Ramayana
Bhagavatam

etc. The advantage with these pravachanas (commentaries) is that the speakers bring cross-references between these Epics and Puranas/Vedas/Dharma Sastras etc.,

Hope this helps...
Last edited by RamaY on 20 Oct 2010 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Carl_T wrote: As for Rama's connection to Visnu, for most of the Ramayana, Rama's nature as a incarnation of Vishnu is practically absent apart from a few references. In the first book there is the story of Visnu incarnating to earth. In the same book there are a few times when he is compared to Visnu. However, apart from a few such references, the core story makes hardly any, if at all, connections to Rama's nature as Visnu.
The objective of Ramayana is to kill ravana (along with the whole asuric forces) as he can be killed by only humans. If this is not the case, Vishnu could have killed Ravana without this avatara.

Read Ramayana carefully, one more time. You will see the connections yourself. Some of them -
1. How Vashista and Viswamitra look at each other (Sage Valmiki explains it the best) in understanding when the later comes to Dasaratha asking for Rama's help

2. During Gautami sapa-vimochana

3. Encounter with Parasurama

4. I think in Bharadwaja Asram - Where Indra leaves the ashram before he encounters Rama (as he would have to recognize him as Vishnu)

5. What Mareecha says to Ravana

6. Kabandha

7. SundaraKanda

8. What Garuda says to Rama when he saves Rama and Lakshmana in the war.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

BajKhedawal wrote:I hope one of you gurus can answer a novice question

Can it be said that Vali, Sugriva, Tara, Gandhamadana, Nala, Neela, Mainda-Dvivida, Sushena, and Sarabha were friends of Hanumanji? how about Jambavanta?

Other than who gave birth to them where can i find characterization of Hanumanji's peers like Tara, Gandhamadana, Nala, etc?
I don't remember which Purana. But Puranas are like cross reference to various characters (giving insight into their previous births, reasons for their actions etc.,).
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by archan »

RamaY wrote: Secular Intellectualism at its best! This is what I was pointing at in that infamous "off-topic" thread to Archan-ji.
ahem, why is my thread infamous, hain?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

:oops:

um, because you started it :P ... (honestly, I think I was in pontificating mode when writing that post)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Carl_T wrote: The oldest manuscript of the Ramayana we have is really not that old, about a thousand years or so IIRC. I think you would agree the story is older than that. Whether the Ramayana as it survives today is the same Ramayana that was told earlier is very much an open question.
Carl_T garu,

I think this is the main issue with your world-view IMHO.

Please try to break out of that time-scale, at least till you get the answer for yourself.

MB happened in ~3200BC, and Krishna Dwaipayana Vyasa was contemporary to MB (Remember he was the seed-donor for Pandu, Dhritarashtra, and Vidura). A teaser for you is how could Vidura (son of a servant) become the minister (mantri) of Dhritarashtra? By the way, Satyavati, mother of Vichitra Virya and Chitrangada (step-brothers of Bhishma) with Santana was daughter of fisher-man.

Ramayana is said to have happened in the Tretayuga of a mahayuga (the commentary link I mentioned above gives the details) which is 27 mahayugas before current one putting the date of Ramayana at ~19,000,000 BC. Now the "secular worldview" doesn't accept such time lines. Why, because secular-world view is built upon christian theology. That is why Secularism is Christianity without church.

Read Ramayana as if that is a historical document. Check the references in Puranas. See if SD concept of time is logical (not faith). Then work backwards. Think why SD historical documents (Puranas, and Epics) did not care to give family trees of kings (Imagine writing the family trees of all kings, clans in Bharata Varsha spanning millions of years).

Another hint for you is, SD kings used travel between different lokas. Even the almost certain historical person, Arjuna too went to Swarga-Loka. Is it possible if you put the constraints of secular-science???
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

RamaY wrote: Another hint for you is, SD kings used travel between different lokas. Even the almost certain historical person, Arjuna too went to Swarga-Loka. Is it possible if you put the constraints of secular-science???
Sorry to butt in but this concept of Lokas and many other things have led me to a conclusion that many parts of our ancient scriptures have been hidden by the PTB.
I will stop here since going down this route normally brands one as a CT.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

I think we should be OK in this topic. What do you mean by PTB? I am curious.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

PTB= 'Powers that be' ie the hidden elites who rule our planet.RamaY Ji Since you have given me the green light I will post further on this, have tons of things to talk about.Please keep an eye on this thread.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

^ If people object, we can go to the OT thread anyways :wink:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

^ Great Idea. :) Will start posting from tomorrow itself but just for the record it is the reason that I want to see revival of Indic civilization since I believe that it has a lot of things to teach us about nature of reality and revival will include getting to know ourselves better and live in harmony with nature.Of course the pseudo scientific beliefs will always have a problem with it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

just for a start and hoping that Mods would oblige for a couple of posts before we get into the meat


Vedas actually describe five different flying machines if I am right. But they do not define any of them and you can't go about building one. But they do tell you how to operate them!? There is a missing link some where lost/taken away.


The vedic maths also falls under the same scale. They say Bhaskara has proposed and 'knew' that earth goes around the sun. But knows that it is the shadow of the moon that is causing the solar eclipse, etc. But then why was it, that these were never implemented in the religious understandings? There is something wrong here. there is a possibility that the original vedas was much different.


There is a vedic book by name 'Yantrasarvasa' written by the great astronomer , the areo-space engineer, Saint Bhardwaja Maharishi in 8th century B.C.
In that he describes the method to construct nearly 500 various variety of airplanes. This also includes the formulaes for Inter stellar and Inter planetary travelling vehicles.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/viman ... anas_8.htm

From the link:
_____________________________________________________
According to Knapp, the Vaimanika Shastra describes in detail, the construction of what is called, the mercury vortex engine the forerunner of the ion engines being made today by NASA. Knapp adds that additional information on the mercury engines can be found in the ancient Vedic text called Samaranga Sutradhara. This text also devotes 230 verses, to the use of these machines in peace and war. The Indologist William Clarendon, who has written down a detailed description of the mercury vortex engine in his translation of Samaranga Sutradhara quotes thus,

‘Inside the circular air frame, place the mercury-engine with its solar mercury boiler at the aircraft center. By means of the power latent in the heated mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in a most marvellous manner. Four strong mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by fire through solar or other sources the Vimana (aircraft) develops thunder-power through the mercury.

NASA (National Aeronautical and Space Administration) world’s richest/ most powerful scientific organization is trying to create an ion engine that is a device that uses a stream of high velocity electrified particles instead of a blast of hot gases like in present day modern jet engines. Surprisingly according to the bi-monthly Ancient Skies published in USA, the aircraft engines being developed for future use by NASA by some strange coincidence also uses mercury bombardment units powered by Solar cells! Interestingly, the impulse is generated in seven stages.



The mercury propellant is first vaporized fed into the thruster discharge chamber ionized converted into plasma by a combination with electrons broke down electrically and then accelerated through small openings in a screen to pass out of the engine at velocities between 1200 to 3000 kilometers per minute! But so far NASA has been able to produce an experimental basis only a one pound of thrust by its scientists a power derivation virtually useless. But 108 years ago Talpade was able to use his knowledge of Vaimanika Shastra to produce sufficient thrust to lift his aircraft 1500 feet into the air!

According to Indian scholar Acharya,

‘Vaimanika Shastra deals about aeronautics including the design of aircraft the way they can be used for transportation and other applications in detail. The knowledge of aeronautics is described in Sanskrit in 100 sections, eight chapters, 500 principles and 3000 slokas including 32 techniques to fly an aircraft. In fact, depending on the classifications of eras or Yugas in modern Kaliyuga aircraft used are called Krithakavimana flown by the power of engines by absorbing solar energies!’

It is feared that only portions of Bharadwaja’s masterpiece Vaimanika Shas-tra survive today.

The question that comes to one’s mind is, what happened to this wonderful encyclopedia of aeronautical knowledge accumulated by the Indian savants of yore, and why was it not used? But in those days, such knowledge was the preserve of sages, who would not allow it to be misused, just like the knowledge of atomic bombs is being used by terrorists today!

According to scholar Ratnakar Mahajan who wrote a brochure on Talpade.

‘Being a Sanskrit scholar interested in aeronautics, Talpade studied and consulted a number of Vedic treatises like:

*

Brihad Vaimanika Shastra of Maharishi Bharadwaja
*

Vimanachandrika of Acharya Narayan Muni
*

Viman yantra of Maharish Shownik
*

Yantra Kalp by Maharishi Garg Muni
*

Viman Bindu of Acharya Vachaspati
*

Vimana Gyanarka Prakashika of Maharishi Dhundiraj’

This gave him confidence that he can build an aircraft with mercury engines. One essential factor in the creation of these Vedic aircraft was the timing of the Suns Rays or Solar energy (as being now utilized by NASA) when they were most effective to activate the mercury ions of the engine. Happily for Talpade Maharaja Sayaji Rao Gaekwad of Baroda a great supporter of the Sciences in India, was willing to help him and Talpade went ahead with his aircraft construction with mercury engines. One day in 1895 (unfortunately the actual date is not mentioned in the Kesari newspaper of Pune which covered the event) before a curious scholarly audience headed by the famous Indian judge/ nationalist/ Mahadeva Govin-da Ranade and H H Sayaji Rao Gaekwad, Talpade had the good fortune to see his un manned aircraft named as ‘Marutsakthi’ take off, fly to a height of 1500 feet and then fall down to earth.

But this success of an Indian scientist was not liked by the Imperial rulers. Warned by the British Government the Maharaja of Baroda stopped helping Talpade. It is said that the remains of the Marutsakthi were sold to ‘foreign parties’ by the relatives of Talpade in order to salvage whatever they can out of their loans to him. Talpade’s wife died at this critical juncture and he was not in a mental frame to continue with his researches. But his efforts to make known the greatness of Vedic Shastras was recognized by Indian scholars, who gave him the title of Vidya Prakash Pra-deep.

Talpade passed away in 1916 un-honored, in his own country.

As the world rightly honors the Wright Brothers for their achievements, we should think of Talpade, who utilized the ancient knowledge of Sanskrit texts, to fly an aircraft, eight years before his foreign counterparts.
______________________________________________________


Terms such as Consciousness, Intelligent Design, etc., have already come into the field of latest science, as human brains seem to have nearly exhausted, no, turned up a lot, lot of, the know-how And they are treading on to an area of know-why. Whats that one? Gravity is the force that pulls the apple from the tree, that is the how. Why should gravity pull it, and act only in certain but not all areas, it is the why. This latter part is also engaging the super brains of our age. But even a five dimensional world is NOT practically 'observable', given our sensory perceptions aided by mathematical, physical, and other tools, though, as just stated, it is conceivable. What do you do then with our science,the way we have nurtured and grown it so far, and even the 'circularity' unknowingly occurring in our arguments for 'proofs', and why should we not dig up old wisdom buried under gushes of new efforrts of brains of only the 17th to 20th century period? Our earth, our universe, and the cosmos, are ageless. What great wisdom it is to 'assume', unwittingly, that what is the 'latest' in our own earth with beings which are creating more problems without having the knowledge to solve even the existing ones, especially in the fields of thought, emotion and feeling ? We have not been able to tread with our inadequately developed science into these areas, although there are so many speculations.Please do some Google search with, say, the words 'science consciousness time eleventh dimension' and in another search with the words plus Vedas. For each of these two searches, a few hundred thousand or million sites/pages will be available to you for making your selection, study and inference/conclusion.
Here's one

http://www.unishivaji.ac.in/shivsandesh ... _Paper.pdf
and another
http://www.zoran-ozimec.com/images/WE_v1.pdf


Since a lot of talks are taking place about Brane universe a simplistic link is attached below:
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/06/02/b ... nd-branes/

The clarity with which the Vedas announce such theories eons ago is simply breathtaking.
Last edited by Manishw on 21 Oct 2010 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Manishw, I would take the account of that version fo vimanika shastra with healty does of scepticism. The reason is it was written by an individual in 1900s based on channeling or divining i.e. he went into a swoon/trance and like the prophets wrote what came to his mind.

But that does not mean there are no descriptions of vimanas in the Epics- Ramayana (return of Rama to Ayodhya) and Mahabharata ( Arjuna'a travel to Indralok in exile and Yudhistr's last journey to heaven) both have atleast two/three descriptions.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

Ramana Ji this is just a start, many holes can be blown , similarly I have left many things, the purpose is to point to the hidden links and portions of ancient scriptures have been removed, will try to do in later posts.For now this should be enough.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

Consider these verses from the ancient Mahabharata:

...a single projectile
Charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame
As bright as the thousand suns
Rose in all its splendour...
a perpendicular explosion
with its billowing smoke clouds...
...the cloud of smoke
rising after its first explosion
formed into expanding round circles
like the opening of giant parasols...

..it was an unknown weapon,
An iron thunderbolt,
A gigantic messenger of death,
Which reduced to ashes
The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
...The corpses were so burned
As to be unrecognisable.
The hair and nails fell out;
Pottery broke without apparent cause,
And the birds turned white.

After a few hours
All foodstuffs were infected...
...to escape from this fire
The soldiers threw themselves in streams
To wash themselves and their equipment.
________________________________________________
Until the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, modern mankind could not imagine any weapon as horrible and devastating as those described in the ancient Indian texts. Yet they very accurately described the effects of an atomic explosion. Radioactive poisoning will make hair and nails fall out. Immersing oneself in water gives some respite, though it is not a cure.


I know everybody would be aware of this and this would be besides the point that I wish to make but if these were not nuclear weapons being described then what else could it be or maybe the hyperactive imagination of mankind probably 5000 yrs ago?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

The mercury bit also appears in reports that have emerged of the so-called WWII German advanced weaponry projects - about special levitation technologies. I had been skeptical about the "para/parada" references in the scattered pieces about "vimanas" or special flying "yantras". But at the uni, I studied up on the sides about ion propulsion, and the Mercury bit did not seem entirely impossible - a conducting liquid metal has lots of useful properties but Hg has some difficulties - particularly its weight, etc. But a rational or reasonable alternative seemed to be originally something that had super-conducting properties and looked like mercury.

The handed down textual descriptions could be trying to describe something that was once real but at their time they did not have the technological understanding to describe them properly - and used more common objects or material to approximate what someone had witnessed perhaps in very ancient times in person.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Abhi_G »

Ramayana is said to have happened in the Tretayuga of a mahayuga (the commentary link I mentioned above gives the details) which is 27 mahayugas before current one putting the date of Ramayana at ~19,000,000 BC. Now the "secular worldview" doesn't accept such time lines. Why, because secular-world view is built upon christian theology. That is why Secularism is Christianity without church.
RamaY,
I understand your basic contention about seeing through "western", "secular" lens. Modern scientific methods do give some tools of detecting antiquity. Prof. B.B. Lal had conducted excavations that carry evidence about the occurrence of the Mahabharata war at Kurukshetra. The most logical way to find the date of the war to the astronomical records would be to compare the age of the artifacts through radio carbon dating with the assumption that the artifacts belonged to the same age as the war. This premise may be true or wrong, only experts on archaelogy would be able to tell. Prof. Lal must be having publications on this.

Now for the Ramayana date, it is tricky. First of all, we need to find some archaeological artifacts dating back to the period. Taking account of the fact, that the locale of Ramayana (say Ayodhya) is habitated, it is difficult to do excavations. Well of course, if the marxist, pseudo seculars were not at the roost during 1990-1991, Prof. B.B. Lal's suggestion of doing excavation at the mosque could have been undertaken. Of course, if wishes were horses, but that is OT. But there are news of finding ancient archaeological sites in the Gangetic basin; but I have not seen any reports of their dating.

Question is, several "pouranik" events have been recorded according to the position of the stars, constellations etc. These positions may be periodic functions of time, based on very scant knowledge that I have. Of course, periodicity without some reference does not give much knowledge - something like is it "2pi" radians or "4pi" radians etc.? Now are there astronomical indicators in the Ramayana? If there are, then there is a possibility of calculating the age from the Mahabharata reference, i.e., 3102 B.C. We also have to understand whether the concept of time in the Hindu system follow the same definitions as the modern concepts - 60 seconds, 60 minutes etc. Who knows even the so called "modern" concept may be wrong but currently this is what we use. Multiple sources of reaching the same conclusion is not bad at all....of course it depends on who is doing it, whether someone who has a secret agenda (e.g. JNU-wallahs) or someone who is searching for the truth.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

^ I owe a summary on "one version of" astronomical dating I came across. Will post it in week I promise.

The issue here is one of the longest astronomical scales, rotation of earth's equinox is limited to 27,000 years or so. I don't know if there is anything beyond that other than our Yuga concept, where every mahayuga, manvantara are named similar to the year names that we see repeating every 60 years.

Our society should definitely invest time and resources on finding archeological evidence for our true history and culture. But we all know very little work is done that is impartial in nature.

Hopefully RBJ issue/verdict will create new interest in this area. Lets see.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

X posted from Deracination thread

Few v important Chanakya Sutra

सुखस्य मूलं धर्म:
धर्मस्य मूलं अर्थ:
अर्थस्य मूलं राज्यं
राज्यस्य मूलं इन्द्रियजय:
इन्द्रियजयस्य मूलं विनय:
विनयस्य मुलं वृद्धोपसेवा
वृद्धासेवाया विज्ञानं
विज्ञानेनात्मनाम सम्पादयेत
सम्पदितात्मा जितात्मा भवति
जितात्मा सर्वार्थे संयुज्येत

Dharma is dependent on Artha

To carry out a living in accordance with the Dharma , one needs artha[money ,food,objects of desire,clothes ,and other household articles].Without these dharma cannot be adhered to. Sometimes people like Dronacharya etc resorted to shilonchsvritti [living without asking /begging or taking anything from others] . People observing such complete aparigraha vrata, can eat or support their family by collecting grains left over after cleansing the field. But eventually Drona had to give up this vrata and join royal service as teacher.

Thus even for greats dharma cannot be adhered to without having artha[money].Money forms the basis of all exchanges in the world. Thus one must know how to earn money according to dharma to support dharma of the self. Dharma requires money but dharma cannot be upheld by earning through adharmic means. That means dharma has its moola in satvik artha only,that which has been earned by permissible means. the money thus earned should be employed for dharma which in turns ensures sukha. Money does not directly ensures the sukha but has the intermediary known as dharma.


Sukhasya mulam dharma: The root of happiness is dharma.

The means to this end are stated as dharma. For our purposes we will understand dharma as meaning proper behavior. Proper behavior involves the application of practical knowledge through self-disciplined endeavor.

Implicitly stated is the belief that happiness and the means of achieving it are within the realm of human control and that those who are intelligent will apply themselves to this task.

Implicit also is the negative side of this understanding: the achievement of happiness is not due to kismat or fate, nor to God or Gods answering prayers. The individual and collective actions of human beings in this world are the determining factor of human happiness.

Dharmasya mulam artha: The root of dharma is artha (wealth and meaning).

Acting properly or dharma requires resources namely money and knowledge summed up by the word artha.

Chanakya states the necessity of wealth and knowledge and their application by proper behaviour as the means to happiness.

Arthasya mulam rajyam: The state is the root of wealth and knowledge.

The arena of human activity is the society in which we live. An intelligent and wealthy society can educate its citizens and supply them the resources to pursue meaningful fulfilling lives.

As Chanakya says elsewhere: artha sampat prakriti sampadam karoti: Economic prosperity creates prosperity for the people. In a wealthy educated society the people prosper. Chanakya also writes artha mulam karyam: wealth arises from work. It sounds simple and it is. Human success is due to human activities. Yajnas, pujas or prayers for auspiciousness or blessings are a waste of time. We create our own destinies.

purushakaram anuvartate daivam:
Fate follows from human actions.

atmayattau vriddhivinashau:
Progress or decay are dependent on ourselves.

rajya mulam indriya jayaha: The root of the state is self-discipline.

The creation and maintenance of a successful and wealthy society requires the hard work and self-discipline of citizens and leaders. The state requires leadership with a long-term vision and plans and the self-discipline to bear short to medium term pain for long-term gain. An educated citizenry will also share this long-term vision and commitment.

indriyajayasya mulam vinayaha: The root of self-discipline is humility.

To practice self-discipline in their lives citizens need the humility to accept that the price of liberty and prosperity is eternal vigilance and endeavor. Success is the result not of predestination or divine blessings but of human actions. To accept that one has the responsibility for ones own destiny and a duty to work towards building a strong prosperous society requires a degree of humility.

vinayasya mulam vriddhopaseva: Learning from elders is the root of humility.

This sense of humility and responsibility is learnt from experienced and wise people who have gone before us. With a humble attitude a student remains open-minded. The scientific as opposed to the religious worldview is a humble one. A scientific mind is open to learning without a pre-judged conclusion. A religious minded person believes the Absolute Truth has been revealed in their particular tradition and scriptures. Religious minds very often become closed minds.

vriddhasevaya vijnanam: Practical knowledge is gained by approaching the wise.

Practical knowledge is to be learnt from the experienced and by remaining open-minded. This may also involve copying those outside of our own society wherever the cutting edge of practical knowledge (particularly in technology and manufacturing) is. Those with humility are ready to take practical knowledge from any source - shatror api suguno grahyaha: good things should be learnt even from an enemy. An open-minded scientific attitude is best for gaining practical knowledge.

vignanenatmanam sampadayet: With wisdom one prospers.

A technologically advanced society becomes a prosperous society. upayapurvam na dushkaram syat: Endeavor combined with scientific knowledge makes for easy results.

sampaditatma jitatma bhavati: The prosperous are victorious.

A prosperous intelligent society can apply it's intelligence and endeavors to increasing wealth and knowledge and overcoming obstacles like extending life spans and creating institutions that improve peoples lives. An educated prosperous and resourceful society is well placed to handle any obstacles that arise and to lay the foundations for continual development.

jitatma sarvarthe samyujyet: The victorious gain all the wealth.

Such a victorious society creates its own luck and generates the wealth and resources to ensure future advancement.

Herein the virtuous circle can take effect. Artha enabling dharma enabling sukha.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

good discussion on indo persian cultural similarities

http://www.anothersubcontinent.com/foru ... t6747.html
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Mauli »

The Rule Of A Woman

This is the story of how Lord Krishna once became the worst enemy of the land of Kashmir. King Gonanda was a relative of the evil king, Jarasandha, whom Krishna was fighting.
"I must go to Jarasandha's aid," Gonanda informed his court.
"But, Sire," protested his ministers, "Jarasandha is wicked and cruel and Krishna has cause to be angry. It is wrong to join forces against Krishna.

"I know all this," said Gonanda, "but when a relative calls for help, I cannot ignore him. It is my duty to support Jarasandha."
He glanced around the silent court and was touched by the grief-stricken faces of his ministers.
"I must leave now," he said, "God willing, I will return. It will all happen as fate decrees." The ministers remained desolate.
Gonanda's prowess in battle was well known and feared. He was easily the strongest ruler that the land ever had. And yet, his might was combined with a gentleness and compassion that endeared him to all. Soon after, Gonanda marched forth to Mathura with a large force. They reached their destination after several days and pitched their camp on the banks of the Kalindi (Yamuna) river.
Within the town, confusion reigned. "This king will destroy us," lamented the people. "Mathura is doomed!" When Gonanda attacked the town, this prophecy was more
than fulfilled.

The soldiers of Mathura were crushed and the people ran helter-skelter, seeking to avoid retribution at Gonanda's hands. It was then that Balarama, Krishna's brother, stepped into the breach.

"Do not be disheartened," he told the shattered soldiers. "I will engage Gonanda in battle and destroy this mighty foe." Accordingly, armed with his plough, Balarama entered the battlefield and challenged Gonanda to a fight. The clash between the two was terrible to behold. At long last, Balarama, wounded and exhausted, drove home the final thrust that lulled the noble Gonanda.Mathura rejoiced while Kashmir was sunk in gloom. Gonanda's son, Damodara, was crowded the king of Kashmir while tears of rage gushed from his eyes.

"I will take revenge for my father's death," he told his wife, Yashovati. "I will not rest till I do so." Yashovati felt troubled and uneasy. She knew her husband's obstinacy and pride, and feared the worst. As time went on, the ministers forgot their grief. Damodara was proving to be as strong and capable as his father, and they were satisfied.

"The kingdom is in safe hands," they said."King Damodara has ably filled his father's place." However, the king himself remained moody and unhappy.

"Why are you always distracted and pale, my lord?" remarked Yashovati. "I cannot find peace till I avenge my father's death," replied Damodara.

"Do not brood on the past," warned Yashovati. "Think about the future. A child will be born to us soon. Is this not more important than nursing a grievance?"

Not long after, while Damodara was in court, the commander of his forces approached him.
"Sire, we have heard that the Vrishnis (Yadavas) have been invited by the Gandharas to a swayamvara" he said.
"They have come and camped on the banks of the Indus." Damodara's eyes gleamed with sudden interest.
"So the Yadavas are here," he said. "Krishna must be with them. Now is the time for me to strike." Aloud he said, "Get a force ready. We will attack them now."

Yashovati watched her husband ride away at the head of his troops, his face glowing with determination. She had tried to stop him, but he was adamant. "Let me go, Yashovati," he had said, "I have waited so long to take revenge."

Urging their horses on faster and faster, Damodara and his soldiers galloped towards the land of the Gandharas. A huge cloud of dust rose and enveloped them as they rode on. At long last they reached the enemy encampment, which was thrown into confusion on their arrival. Screams and cries rent the air as the Yadavas seized their arms and struggled into battle positions. Damodara immediately sighted Krishna. He was seated alone, a look of calmness and peace on his face. Just then, he caught the enraged king's eye and smiled.
'He tries to mock me!' thought the furious Damodara. With a cry of wrath, he rode up to Krishna and challenged him to a fight.
Those who saw the fight between Damodara and Krishna were reminded of the mighty clash between Gonanda and Balarama. As before, the combatants were equally matched and the issue remained doubtful. Anger and revenge lent power to Damodara's arm and he fought like one possessed. Yet he soon became a victim to Krishna's Sudarshana Chakra and died at Krishna's feet.

The two armies sprang apart and those of Kashmir were sunk in gloom. Krishna directed a look of compassion towards them and said, "Lead me to your land. There is something I have to do there." The sorrowing soldiers led Krishna and his retinue to their orphaned land. From the palace window, Yashovati saw them return and despair filled her heart. 'My husband is dead,' she thought. 'My unborn child will never have a father.' She struggled with her tears and tried to gain control over herself. When Krishna came to her, her grief burst forth in a fresh torrent of tears.

"My child," said Krishna gently. "Do not grieve for him. He has attained peace at last." Knowing this to be true, Yashovati was comforted. The Lord said, "You must fulfil the task I now set you. You will take your husband's place on the throne." Shock and bewilderment assailed Yashovati's mind as she considered this. She—a ruler? How could she accept this task? What would the people say? Then she looked at Krishna's face and drew strength and courage from it.

"I will do as you say," she said resolutely. "So, come with me," said Krishna and led her to the vacant throne. Before the startled eyes of the court, he made the priests perform her coronation ceremony. Finally, he placed the crown on her head and turned to the others.
"She is your ruler now," he said. A murmur of protest rose in the chamber.
"A woman on the throne?" exclaimed the ministers.
"How can this be, Krishna? She cannot rule." Krishna held up his hand for silence.
"This land of Kashmir is Parvati herself," he said."I am honouring her by placing a woman on her throne." These words silenced the people.

As Yashovati looked around, she knew that the eyes of the men looked upon her with new respect. Tears of pride pricked her eyes and her face glowed with a new commitment. Krishna surveyed the court and there was not a flicker of resentment now. Satisfied, he blessed the new ruler and her people and departed.

Months later, a son was born to Yashovati. She looked at him with great pride. "You shall bear the name of your grandfather," she said. "For one day, you are to step on this noble throne and rule the land like him." And the infant Gonanda looked at her and smiled.

Stories from "RajatRangini"
Tales of Kashmir
By Devika Rangachari

Children's Book Trust, New Delhi
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Could be OT for this thread but need to think about it.

Pioneer Op-Ed.

LINK

Hominid to humanOctober 25, 2010 8:24:03 PM

The Pioneer Edit Desk

New research debunks old theories

Human evolution has been one of the enduring mysteries of our time, and the more it is sought to be understood with the help of cutting edge technology and advanced research, the further surprises it throws up, sometimes forcing us to rewrite earlier assumptions. For instance, we have grown up believing that more the researchers travel backwards in time, the greater confirmatory evidence they will get of our linkage with chimpanzees. Fifteen years ago, scientists were taken back 4.4 million years when they encountered in Ethiopia the fossils of a female hominid, soon named Ardipithecus Ramidus. This female hominid was not only at least one million years older than the famous Lucy skeleton whose discovery had enthralled the world’s scientific community for years, it also triggered a new thought process that, perhaps, Ramidus was the direct launch pad for the present day human evolution. According to a report published in a recent issue of the National Geographic, while this veteran hominid had some very primitive traits found in monkeys and some extinct species of apes, she also bore characteristics like a big toe and a short and broad upper pelvis that helps humans to walk erect — unique to our own hominid lineage. Anatomists and others who have been studying her are also excited by another aspect — which confounds our long-held belief of clearly demarcated evolutionary stages — and it is that Ramidus could be that rare hominid who was caught midway, as it were, while evolving to another level. Take just two examples: If its upper pelvis was human-like, its lower pelvis bore all the characteristics of a monkey, and the fingers and palm of its hands were so built that they might have been used both for clambering on trees like monkeys do and walk upright on the ground like present day humans do. The National Geographic report points out that if Ramidus’s discoverers are right, it would mean that our ancestors neither knuckle-walked nor were they chimps. Of course, the final verdict is yet to come. In fact, some experts quoted in the National Geographic report have wondered if Ardipithecus Ramidus was indeed a hominid, and if so, was it bipedal? Because if it were not, several of the novel theories that are emerging of our evolution following the Ramidus discovery would crash.

But what remains uncontested is that barely 200,000 years after Ardipithecus Ramidus made her baffling appearance, the fully bipedal Lucy arrived. She represented the Australopithecus genus, and every hominid that followed her stuck to bipedalism, making it easier for researchers to trace back our evolution. But simply because Lucy came later, it does not automatically follow that her Australopithecus genus evolved from Ardipithecus Ramidus. So, is this wonderful Ramidus woman the last common ancestor we share with the chimpanzee? That’s possible. It’s equally possible that there was someone else as fascinating as Ardipithicus Ramidus waiting to be discovered. For the moment, we can only consider with amazement the fascinating possibilities of our evolution through the ages.
To me Ramidus represents the historical memory of vanaras that is passed on to us in the Ramayana. Its the half monkey, half man that is so vividly described.

Watch out for future 3-D model reconstructions of Ramidus on Discovery and BBC. Anyone recall the Humanzee episode on Discover channel.
ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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x-post from off topic thread :oops:

Deepak Chopra, Robert Thurman: God and Buddha - a dialogue

PS: there's a tiny NSFW icon. watch out.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc114.htm

***

It was a moment of great astonishment when i learnt that dogon tribe of Mali in africa knew about Binary of Sirius star. They believe that the first 'human' came from that orbiting binary of Sirius. This star is not visible to the naked eye.

http://www.unmuseum.org/siriusb.htm

The above was also shown in Ancient People program on NGC recently.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... dogon.html

One very famous editor of a renowned magazine who was also interviewed in the program mentioned about mention of golden coloured air craft visiting earth in Mahabharat (?).

The program totally sidelined desi contribution to astronomy.

More on dogon
In the late 1940’s, Dogon priests greatly surprised the French anthropologists Griaule and Dieterlen by telling them secret Dogon myths about the star Sirius (8.6 light years from the earth). The priests said that Sirius had a companion star that was invisible to the human eye. They also stated that the star moved in a 50-year elliptical orbit around Sirius, that it was small and incredibly heavy, and that it rotated on its axis.

All these things happen to be true (the actual orbital figure is 50.04 +/- 0.09 years). But what makes this so remarkable is that the companion star of Sirius, called Sirius B, was first photographed in 1970. While people began to suspect its existence around 1844, it was not seen through a telescope until 1862. The Dogon beliefs, on the other hand, were supposedly thousands of years old. The Dogon name for Sirius B (Po Tolo) consists of the word for star (tolo) and "po," the name of the smallest seed known to them. By this name they describe the star's smallness -- it is, they say, "the smallest thing there is." They also claim that it is "the heaviest star," and white. The tribe claims that Po is composed of a mysterious, super-dense metal called sagala, which they declare is heavier than all the iron on Earth. Not until 1926 did Western science discover that this tiny star is a white dwarf, a category of star characterized by very great density.

Many artifacts were found describing the star system, including a statue examined by Dieterlen that is at least 400 years old. The Dogon also describe a third star in the Sirius system, called Emme Ya. Larger and lighter than Sirius B, this star revolves around Sirius as well. Around the star Emme Ya orbits a planet from which the mythic Nommos originally came. To date, however, astronomers have not identified Emme Ya. Will our celestial observation devices one day be powerful enough for us to find this legendary planet, thereby adding still more mystery to the extraordinary - seemingly impossible - astronomical knowledge of the Dogon? In addition to their knowledge of the Sirius group, the Dogon mythology includes Saturn's rings and Jupiter's four major moons. They have four calendars, for the Sun, Moon, Sirius, and Venus, and have long known that planets orbit the sun. The Dogon say their astronomical knowledge was given to them by the Nommos, amphibious beings sent to Earth from Sirius for the benefit of mankind. The word Nommos comes from a Dogon word meaning, "to make one drink," and the Nommos are also called Masters of the Water, the Monitors, and the Teachers.

The Dogon myths tell the legend of the Nommos, who arrived in a vessel along with fire and thunder. After they arrived here - they put out a reservoir of water onto the Earth then dove into the water. There are references in the oral traditions, drawings and tablets of the Dogons, to human-looking beings who have feet but who are portrayed as having a large fish skin running down their bodies. The Nommos were more fishlike than human and had to live in water. They were saviors and spiritual guardians: "The Nommo divided his body among men to feed them; that is why it is also said that as the universe "had drunk of his body," the Nommo also made men drink. He gave all his life principles to human beings." The Nommo was crucified and resurrected and in the future will again visit the Earth, this time in human form. Similar creatures have been noted in other ancient civilizations -- Babylonia's Oannes, Acadia's Ea, Sumer's Enki, and Egypt's goddess Isis.
http://sacredsites.com/africa/mali/dogon.html
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