LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Jun 2017 01:20

Yagnasri wrote:It is not that Tata's are manufacturing gods. See Tata made cars.

They just took a contract off an American firm which was supplying the C-130 empennage. The US company was making the parts for over 50 years.
I posted a video about TASL, and these guys look really good.

Their cars are improving ever since they took over Land Rover, and have had a string of collaborations with German component suppliers.
I remember Indica when it was first launched. (I used to call it Tartara Indica - the Genus/species for a house mouse

The car did look rodent like)
But the current gen cars and SAVs these guys have look pretty impressive for the cost point.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jun 2017 09:34

Two quick questions:

1) When was the LCA MK1A supposed to be completed (when Parrikar announced it in 2015)? And,
2) The French assisted Kaveri, what are the expectations? F404 or F414?

disha · Post by **disha** » 27 Jun 2017 09:47

nirav wrote: Lungi dance moment if the above comes through.
FOC was slated for June.
4 days to go.

Or 369 days to go. It was definitely slated for June but which year., sir - which year?

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 27 Jun 2017 09:53

NRao wrote:Two quick questions:

1) When was the LCA MK1A supposed to be completed (when Parrikar announced it in 2015)? And,
2) The French assisted Kaveri, what are the expectations? F404 or F414?

Cutting-edge Israeli radar wins air force approval for Tejas fighter
SOP 18 was agreed upon on September 23, 2015. Typically 30-36 months are required for roll-out (excluding external delays on critical components like radar, radome etc.) Not sure how much time should be accounted for to accommodate air shows/displays and certification activity.

JET, SET, GO
* The specifications of the new Tejas - termed Standard of Preparation-2018 (SoP-18) - were agreed in New Delhi on September 23, between the air force and the Tejas' designers and manufacturers
* One hundred SoP-18 Tejas fighters will join the IAF, starting 2018-19
* The key battle-winning capability in the SoP-18 Tejas is "active electronically scanned array" radar that Israel will develop jointly with India
* This was the clincher that made the IAF agree to buy 100 SoP-18 fighters from HAL, in addition to the 20 Tejas Mark I already on order

French assisted Kaveri has been reported on the Kaveri thread. One of the PVs will fly it in 2019 according to the French sources* (but it will likely take 5 years per Indian sources*).

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 27 Jun 2017 09:59

disha wrote:
nirav wrote: Lungi dance moment if the above comes through.
FOC was slated for June.
4 days to go.
Or 369 days to go. It was definitely slated for June but which year., sir - which year?

This year !
Check tarmak reports..

The Mk1A is supposed to be ready in 2018.
Read a report which quoted HAL chairman, that they are trying their best to reach the 2018 deadline, if achieved they have a plan to convert the 20 FOC order to Mk1A.

All the power to them !

disha · Post by **disha** » 27 Jun 2017 10:17

^^^ My humor was just lost. Normally in long projects when a date is given., month is not given. When a month is given the year is not given!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Jun 2017 10:21

The "LCA will fly with Kaveri in the next AI" boast is there. So by 2018 end, it should've flown. Tall order.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 27 Jun 2017 11:14

Prasad wrote:The "LCA will fly with Kaveri in the next AI" boast is there. So by 2018 end, it should've flown. Tall order.

Pertinent to note that it is the French who're doing the boasting in this case! GTRE has been very low profile and tight-lipped since Mohan Rao got "nailed". Unfortunately the Kaveri stick will be repeatedly used by unscrupulous gents to beat the LCA!

Nirav, 2018 would be an achievement, given the delays in ongoing programs. Then again, the ADA team has risen against impossible odds and trickle funding.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Jun 2017 11:28

I have been hearing about the imminent LCA flight with kaveri since 2009 or 10. But till 2017 I haven't seen anything like kaveri powering the LCA.

if it happens it will be great. But we should not get our hopes up for that.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 27 Jun 2017 11:30

The Frenchie's did boast of a Kaveri powered flight at next aero India, 2019.
Let's see how they deliver on it.
There has been no noise on the engine front for Mk1A.

99 f414s were needed for the mk2.
A similar contract needs to be signed for 404IN S6.

If HAL can pull a rabbit out of their Musharraf's and replace the 20 FOC orders with Mk1A, it will be an incredible moment in the history of the LCA program.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Jun 2017 16:58

nirav wrote:The Frenchie's did boast of a Kaveri powered flight at next aero India, 2019.
Let's see how they deliver on it.
There has been no noise on the engine front for Mk1A.

99 f414s were needed for the mk2.
A similar contract needs to be signed for 404IN S6.

If HAL can pull a rabbit out of their Musharraf's and replace the 20 FOC orders with Mk1A, it will be an incredible moment in the history of the LCA program.

IIRC I once posted a reference here of TSR's interview where he mentioned that the 20 FOC jets will be upgraded to MK1A by default. However even the 20 IOC jets can be upgraded. But IAF will have to sign separate contract if they wish so.

But lack of engine order is little concerning.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 27 Jun 2017 17:32

JayS wrote:
nirav wrote:The Frenchie's did boast of a Kaveri powered flight at next aero India, 2019.
Let's see how they deliver on it.
There has been no noise on the engine front for Mk1A.

99 f414s were needed for the mk2.
A similar contract needs to be signed for 404IN S6.

If HAL can pull a rabbit out of their Musharraf's and replace the 20 FOC orders with Mk1A, it will be an incredible moment in the history of the LCA program.
IIRC I once posted a reference here of TSR's interview where he mentioned that the 20 FOC jets will be upgraded to MK1A by default. However even the 20 IOC jets can be upgraded. But IAF will have to sign separate contract if they wish so.

But lack of engine order is little concerning.

This is different.
I understood from the interview that they are actually considering not having the 20 FOC std at all.Rather, convert that order to 83 Mk1A, if they meet their 2018 deadline.

Hikes the total to 103 Mk1A and avoids needless pulling of those 20 jets from the flightline for a MLU.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jun 2017 17:54

Thanks folks for the responses.

~~On Kaveri, looking for thrust equivalency. Are promising something closer to the 404 or 414?~~

It is the F404.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Jun 2017 18:10

nirav wrote:
JayS wrote:
IIRC I once posted a reference here of TSR's interview where he mentioned that the 20 FOC jets will be upgraded to MK1A by default. However even the 20 IOC jets can be upgraded. But IAF will have to sign separate contract if they wish so.

But lack of engine order is little concerning.
This is different.
I understood from the interview that they are actually considering not having the 20 FOC std at all.Rather, convert that order to 83 Mk1A, if they meet their 2018 deadline.

Hikes the total to 103 Mk1A and avoids needless pulling of those 20 jets from the flightline for a MLU.

Gotcha. Sorry didn't read the entire context in previous posts.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 27 Jun 2017 21:43

My bad, I should have posted the link to be clearer..

http://armynews.in/indian-defence-news/ ... ejas-mk1a/

This is where I picked it up from.

Spent the last hour trying to find the same quote from a news organisation, couldn't find it though.

It is big news and if TSR Saab mentioned it "while interacting with journalists" it should have been widely reported.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Jun 2017 01:29

What does Saurav meant to say

There is some truth in the view that the 20 FOC Mk-1s will be the first Mk-1As.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/879747671367442432

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2017 01:39

And if the MK1A has lost about a 1000 then it is a MK2.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Jun 2017 03:19

From a pessimist's viewpoint - it could simply mean that they can't make the FOC date and are now euphemistically saying that FOC == Mk1A

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2017 03:53

That is OK.

Came across this article, from Aug 12, 2015:

With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A

Very interesting article. But two things caught my attention.

The Mark 1-A would be faster and more agile than the current Mark I. Developing it would involve shaving off 800 kilogrammes from the current fighter, especially from systems like the landing gear, which are currently "over-engineered", or built heavy, for safety. HAL also proposes to remove 300 kg of dead weight distributed across the Mark I to balance it evenly.

The point being with the IN out of the MK2 picture, the IAF no longer *needs* a F414 based LCA. IF teh weight is reduced, which I am not sure if it has been or even planned, then a F404 based LCA with reduced weight will suffice for the MK2. Granted there are a few other check marks to process that are not in the MK1A.

Then. Someone (srai?) had asked about an idle line. Here is the answer from Aug, 2015!!!!!!!!!!!

"We can assure HAL that, if it accelerates the delivery of fighters to the point where it seems likely to deliver 40 Tejas Mark I before the Mark II is ready, we will certainly place orders for more Mark I fighters. The assembly line will not be kept idle. That is our assurance," says a senior IAF officer.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Jun 2017 04:09

^ About that IAF afsar remark - I believe the former ACM Raha himself has said the same in so many words - deliver on time and quality, and we will be happy to buy more!

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Jun 2017 04:55

NRao wrote:...
Came across this article, from Aug 12, 2015:

With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A

...

Then. Someone (srai?) had asked about an idle line. Here is the answer from Aug, 2015!!!!!!!!!!!

"We can assure HAL that, if it accelerates the delivery of fighters to the point where it seems likely to deliver 40 Tejas Mark I before the Mark II is ready, we will certainly place orders for more Mark I fighters. The assembly line will not be kept idle. That is our assurance," says a senior IAF officer.

Great! That is the type of assurance we want to hear. Now it is up to ADA, HAL and their partners to deliver.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2017 05:14

CM,

I do not follow such matters at a granular level. Actually I accidentally stumbled across that article (while looking for when was the MK1A promised and the trust of the French Kaveri).

srai,

I agree.

OK, let us leave "idle line" behind. Case solved (provided HAL/ADA keep up their promise).

On to:

Why is there a need for a F414 - at all?

OK, fast forward to 2020 (round number). France has promised to deliver a F404 level engine by 2019 - that too mated to a LCA. So - as I see it - India will have an engine for the MK1A, an Indian radar should not be far behind (rught? I am not following these developments). What about missiles? To replace Israeli/Russian ones? IF missiles are a done deal, then all that remains is the ejection seat (UK) and the gun (RU). Can live with those two imports.

25% by component, 40% by cost LCA should be way down in both categories, to being justifiably called an Indian plane.

I think the key is weight reduction. IF that can be achieved, I just do not see a *NEED* for the F414 based LCA.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jun 2017 05:22

The F414 was derived from the F404 engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

GE evolved the F404 into the F412-GE-400 non-afterburning turbofan for the McDonnell Douglas A-12 Avenger II. After the cancellation of the A-12, the research was directed toward an engine for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. GE successfully pitched the F414 as a low-risk derivative of the F404, rather than a riskier new engine.

But that is a moot point and only highlighted to obfuscate facts

I believe the F-18A/B/C/D variants have a TWR of 0.38 powered with F404 turbofans.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/BGP/D ... nswers.htm

Brar, if you are reading this...what is the TWR of the F-18E/F powered by F414-400 turbofans?

JayS, if you are reading this...what is the TWR of the Tejas Mk.1? Your calculation of the TWR of the Mk.1A and the Mk.2?

Secondly, it has been brought up time and time again (again obfuscation) that Snecma is going to put "old" engine technology into the Kaveri. Remember, there are no facts to back this claim up. Just smoke & mirrors. The F414 is also 1990s technology and is a derivative of the F404 engine which had its first run in 1978! I am going to leave the "reasons" for this obfuscation to the readers of BRF, but here are the facts, because Snecma is reviving the Kaveri engine using the M88 turbofan that powers the Rafale.

Fact #1 - The first M88 turbofan flew on 27 February 1990.
Fact #2 - The first F414 turbofan had its first run on 20 May 1993.
Fact #3 - The Kaveri engine is indeed being revived using the lessons learnt from developing the M88 turbofan
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 145943.cms

Parrikar said that French firm Safran - which has developed the M88 engines for the Rafale - will be using technology from its engines that go on the Rafale to revive the Indian project.

To further add credence to that claim (in the link above), Safran posted a job on it's website for a program manager for the Kaveri engine. That job has now been filled, but IDRW had an article dated Feb 2017 in which they did a cut-and-paste job of the job description from the Safran website. Link below;

http://idrw.org/safran-looking-out-for- ... ri-engine/

Ensure the control and coordination of all activities on the program, including consistent with the M88 program.

To compare the M88 turbofan with the F404 is laughable at best.

BTW, Safran has a job opening on its website (link below) for a M88 / Kaveri Military Engine Performance Engineer.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... &sandbox=1

The Snecma propsoal has caused a lot of khujli to some on BRF, because it removes one of the two pillars that is holding the Tejas back - a local engine. The second pillar being an AESA radar, which is coming on the Mk.1A, via Elta. Get ready for lots of rhona-dhona and more obfuscation on BRF, when a Kaveri powered Tejas takes to the sky in 2018 and flies at Aero India 2019.

There are one or two among the pro F-Solah crowd on BRF whose इरादे सही नहीं हैं.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Jun 2017 05:44

Great find on the Perf engineer posting Rakesh!

Given that there is 404 and 414 for Mk-2, this product has time to mature and prove itself over a long period. That hurry is gone.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Jun 2017 07:07

srai wrote:Some titbits picked up from FB Tejas - LCA:

...

Gun trials coming up
26 May at 17:53 Sanjay Badri-Maharaj:
How are gun trials progressing? No news for a very long time.

27 May at 09:20 Tejas - LCA:
Getting ready for the ground firing trials, sir.

28 May at 22:18 Maheswaran Selvaraj:
Sir, when gun friing trails starts ? why it getting delayed ?

28 May at 23:20 Tejas - LCA:
Sir, it will happen as planned. The ground trials will commence soon.

20 June at 10:21 Oscar Zulu:
Hasn't the gosh-23 already been integrated on Tejas and ground firing trials have been held? There was a video too. Then what is this ground integration firing trials mentioned here ?

20 June at 10:33 Tejas - LCA:
The earlier one was with a diff prototype. This one with the FOC standard aircraft.
...

Looks like the FOC standard aircraft for gun integration is LSP-7.

Earlier one was PV-3, which did the ground firings in 2015.

Going by ADA flight news: 2017 - No. of flights successfully completed by LCA - Tejas

Code: Select all

3470th  flight on 23th Jun
LSP7: 177

3457th  flight on 30th May --> 3350th  flight on 31st Jan
LSP7: 176

So the gun flights have begun it would seem. LSP7 hadn't flown since Jan 2017. It flew in June again.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 28 Jun 2017 07:22

Thanks for such a detailed post Rakesh ji.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jun 2017 08:19

Tejas likely to be armed with Derby
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-438514/

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Jun 2017 08:22

^ on the mki too....wow. It is possible since they are able to mate bars with Astra. Modis trip to Israel will be interesting

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 28 Jun 2017 10:51

Cain Marko wrote:^ About that IAF afsar remark - I believe the former ACM Raha himself has said the same in so many words - deliver on time and quality, and we will be happy to buy more!

I recall him saying - we will take as many as they(HAL) give..
The ball has been firmly in ADA/HAL court from quite a while.
This is why I was surprised with posters still blaming IAF for not being supportive enough.

If HAL delivers all 123 LCAs by 25-26, there is no way they are not getting a repeat order.
These are the timelines btw for the mk2to have been ready.
If it's not ready, they can continue churning out 16/yr Mk1A.

I read another article which stated HAL intent of a Capex of 17,500 crores over the next 5-6 years.
That report did mention about achieving a capacity of 18-20 /yr.

The possibility of the 'death' of the LCA just hasn't been there except dhoti shivering by a select few.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2017 17:05

nirav wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:^ About that IAF afsar remark - I believe the former ACM Raha himself has said the same in so many words - deliver on time and quality, and we will be happy to buy more!
.......

The possibility of the 'death' of the LCA just hasn't been there except dhoti shivering by a select few.

Xposting my post from SE thread:

Between 2020-2025, the LCA MK1A should be powered by the French assisted Kaveri (@90 KN) and the AMCA with the GE 414 based "enhanced" engine (@110Kn) being developed by GE Bangalore. Both will/should be Indian IP.

I think the F404 for the LCA will be discontinued (for the LCA Mk1A) and the F414 for the LCA Mk2 cancelled. So will the Mk2 for the IAF.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2017 17:12

srai wrote:
NRao wrote:Between 2020-2025, the LCA MK1A should be powered by the French assisted Kaveri (@90 KN) and the AMCA with the GE 414 based "enhanced" engine (@110Kn) being developed by GE Bangalore. Both will/should be Indian IP.

...
Unlikely that Kaveri JV would power LCA Mk1A that soon. If there is a second batch order post 2024/25 when 83 lot-1 are going to be completed, then those would likely have Kaveri JV (if as promised by the French) and also we can count on Uttam AESA by then.

IMO, the second batch order is crucial post 2024. Engine and radar will be Indian.

The French are expected to certify that Kaveri engine. And they have had front seats on the Kaveri since 2008-9. I expect a complete engine mated to the LCA by 2020.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Jun 2017 17:28

^^^
But certification would take some more time.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2017 17:45

Certification is what I meant by "complete".

Certification is what the French bring , in addition to the techs, to the table. Besides, the Kaveri and the French components should have been separately certified. I would expect the certification cycle to be lesser than normal.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Jun 2017 18:04

Rakesh wrote:I believe the F-18A/B/C/D variants have a TWR of 0.38 powered with F404 turbofans.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/BGP/D ... nswers.htm

Brar, if you are reading this...what is the TWR of the F-18E/F powered by F414-400 turbofans?

JayS, if you are reading this...what is the TWR of the Tejas Mk.1? Your calculation of the TWR of the Mk.1A and the Mk.2?

TWR is mission depedent as in how much fuel and weapons load you need to execute a particular mission. Is it an OCA or DCA mission, a Maritime strike mission, a deep inland strike mission, a CAS mission etc etc etc.

- F/A-18 C with GE F404, 50% Fuel, 6 Aim-120s plus launchers - T2W ratio - 1.02
- F/A-18 E with GE F414, 50% Fuel, 6 Aim-120s plus launchers - T2W ratio - 1.04

- F/A-18E with GE F414, 100% Internal Fuel, 2 x GBU-31 2xAim-120 and 2xAim-9X - T2W ratio - 0.85

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Jun 2017 18:05

srai wrote: Looks like the FOC standard aircraft for gun integration is LSP-7.

Earlier one was PV-3, which did the ground firings in 2015.

Going by ADA flight news: 2017 - No. of flights successfully completed by LCA - Tejas
Code: Select all
3470th  flight on 23th Jun
LSP7: 177

3457th  flight on 30th May --> 3350th  flight on 31st Jan
LSP7: 176
So the gun flights have begun it would seem. LSP7 hadn't flown since Jan 2017. It flew in June again.

This has just become 'news' on IDRW.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Jun 2017 21:24

^^^

At least they should give credits to their "sources"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jun 2017 21:32

Many other journos also get their ideas for articles from here.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jun 2017 21:39

May 12 article on successful Derby firing from LCA in radar mode.

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1933183

So now airborne gun firing trials to be accomplished.

Bengaluru: The Limited Series Production (LSP-4) aircraft from Tejas flight line successfully fired the Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM)...

With this successful trial, sources confirm to Mathrubhumi that all tasks for the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) will now be achieved by December 2017...

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -in-radar-

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Jun 2017 23:13

srai wrote:^^^
At least they should give credits to their "sources"

I think it's okay. I rather have a news org give BR points as news rather than the lifafa journalists doing a hatchet job.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Jun 2017 23:24

ramana wrote: With this successful trial, sources confirm to Mathrubhumi that all tasks for the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) will now be achieved by December 2017...