Indian Military Helicopters

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atreya
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby atreya » 07 Dec 2018 18:33



You'll have to click on the mp4 link beneath 'Upload video'.


Kakkaji
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 11 Dec 2018 01:52

HAL's made in India light chopper now Siachen-ready, tested to 20,000 feet

In an organisation where engineers and technicians still smart over Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman's recent statement that HAL was not competent to manufacture the Rafale fighter under licence, there is quiet vindication.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 11 Dec 2018 02:08

What has building helis got to do with building Rafale? The author's habit of bringing in politics is a real turn off.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 11 Dec 2018 10:14

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1072082096519299072 ---> Good news. HAL's Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) clears 6-km altitude flight, gets set for cold-weather trials next month.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 11 Dec 2018 15:46

Gorgeous shots Admiral.
Slowly but surely.

I get a feeling Admiral, this baby will be in numbers with both the services before the LCHs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 11 Dec 2018 15:50

What makes you say that? Is there a problem with LCH development?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 11 Dec 2018 20:03

Khalsa wrote:Gorgeous shots Admiral.
Slowly but surely.

I get a feeling Admiral, this baby will be in numbers with both the services before the LCHs.


Well, the requirement of LUH class is many fold that of requirement of LCH class. So eventually LUH will see much higher numbers in service. But what makes you say LUH will outpace LCH on induction front..? As of today, LCH is already in LSP phase and 15 are on order, while LUH is still to get IOC. Unless IA is convinced that LUH is faster way of replacement of Chital compared to Ka226, I find it difficult to imagine LUH will be rushed into service.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 11 Dec 2018 20:20

its IOC will be fast vs LCH as not much of complex sensors and weapons to test out.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Haridas » 12 Dec 2018 11:45

IIRC ~10 years ago at AeroIndia the full scale concept model of LUH was shown.
Can some one identify what all has changes from cencept to realization?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 12 Dec 2018 14:35

JayS wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Gorgeous shots Admiral.
Slowly but surely.

I get a feeling Admiral, this baby will be in numbers with both the services before the LCHs.


Well, the requirement of LUH class is many fold that of requirement of LCH class. So eventually LUH will see much higher numbers in service. But what makes you say LUH will outpace LCH on induction front..? As of today, LCH is already in LSP phase and 15 are on order, while LUH is still to get IOC. Unless IA is convinced that LUH is faster way of replacement of Chital compared to Ka226, I find it difficult to imagine LUH will be rushed into service.


Khalsa responding to JayS and JTull Saars.

Ah I should have been more clearer.
Okay it wasn't the PV to IOC to FOC pace where I think this will outpace the LCH but more of the race after FOC where I believe the LUH will outpace.

I believe larger orders and a dedicated space (197 or 187 LUHs will cause a more repeatable squadron equipment replacement event to happen which will outspace an equipment type that is being acquired for the first time.
aka Attack Heli under complete IA command and control.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby yensoy » 12 Dec 2018 15:40

Haridas wrote:IIRC ~10 years ago at AeroIndia the full scale concept model of LUH was shown.
Can some one identify what all has changes from cencept to realization?


More confidence in the engine and flight controls perhaps, as a result of the lessons learnt from Dhruv & its variants? Since this is a single engine chopper, the recent outburst from Ravi Shastri should apply to its test pilots who obviously had the iron will and fortitude to take it up to 6000m.

From the colour scheme, looks like HAL is hedging its bets between the Army, Navy, Air Force and Civilian operators to pick up the LUH. There is Green, Blue, Gray and Yellow.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Haridas » 12 Dec 2018 20:44

^^^ I was thinking of shape, size, features & specs.

OTOH Engine was largely settled many prior yrs ago when Dhruv was proven.
The chopper is not unstable aerodynamics, so is a simple flight control problem space.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 13 Dec 2018 01:36

Haridas ji,


I don't know which model you saw. But, there were a few ostensible changes from the original design:


The original design envisioned a 2 bladed tail rotor. But, a decision was made quite early to change to 4 blades.
The fairing for the engine and transmission has seen major changes. The intake is now flush.


The internal changes are more significant. They always wanted to use a variant of Shakti engine, but Safran jacked up design costs so much that HAL had to do it inhouse. This caused significant delay. Another major hindrance was changes due to vibrations. But these are behind them now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Dec 2018 03:15

Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,


I don't know which model you saw. But, there were a few ostensible changes from the original design:


The original design envisioned a 2 bladed tail rotor. But, a decision was made quite early to change to 4 blades.
The fairing for the engine and transmission has seen major changes. The intake is now flush.


The internal changes are more significant. They always wanted to use a variant of Shakti engine, but Safran jacked up design costs so much that HAL had to do it inhouse. This caused significant delay. Another major hindrance was changes due to vibrations. But these are behind them now.


Thanks Indranil. Could we make such posts sticky so that people are able to make useful contributions after reading background.
Or please be ruthless in cleaning up this thread...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Haridas » 13 Dec 2018 04:10

Thanks Indranil ji.
One day I will pull out photographs of those initial mockups.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 13 Dec 2018 14:54

Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,


I don't know which model you saw. But, there were a few ostensible changes from the original design:


The original design envisioned a 2 bladed tail rotor. But, a decision was made quite early to change to 4 blades.
The fairing for the engine and transmission has seen major changes. The intake is now flush.


The internal changes are more significant. They always wanted to use a variant of Shakti engine, but Safran jacked up design costs so much that HAL had to do it inhouse. This caused significant delay. Another major hindrance was changes due to vibrations. But these are behind them now.


Indranil, can you confirm that the LUH engine was derived from the Dhruv Shakti engine by HAL, without help from Safran?
At the time most reports mentioned that Safran was asking for a lot of money to derive the engine for the LUH, from the Shakti engine. At the time there was a lot of discussion as to how even after paying for the development of the Shakti from the baseline Ardiden engine, we have to pay a large amount for any kind of changes/modifications to the same.
If HAL indeed was able to derive the engine from the Shakti on its own, it really great news. In this case the next question would be, who is manufacturing the engine then? For the Shakti, I think Safran supplies the parts and the engine is assembled by HAL. Maybe some of the parts might be sourced from Indian vendors.
If HAL derived the LUH engine from Shakti, then did they provide the design back to Safran?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2018 02:50

There was a mistake in my earlier reply. What I thought I was typing is not what I typed :roll: . Happens to me when I type on a flight.

What I wanted to type was that HAL always wanted to design the LUH around the a derivative of the Shakti engine. And it did so, Shakti is Ardiden 1H1. LUH uses the Ardiden 1U which has slightly better power performance especially in emergency modes.

Safran just jacked up the price for the transmission development. HAL tried to find other developers, but it would have been very difficult for anybody else to just come in and generate a result starting from ground zero (engines and transmissions are very close coupled). So, they even considered going for an alternate engine transmission combo. But, the Ardiden is such a well-proven solution for the high altitude situations that this was a tough choice. This stalled the program for two odd years.

Thankfully, they solved the problem by going with the Ardiden 1U engine and a transmission designed at home. The (3-stage sun plenary) transmission designed for LUH is a more conservative design than the cutting-edge 2-stage transmission used in the ALH. The ALH transmission is a thing of beauty and was a major cause for worry which took decades to master. The LUH transmission is not as compact, but can get the job done.

If you are interested, you can find details of its testing here.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 14 Dec 2018 15:05

Indranil wrote:There was a mistake in my earlier reply. What I thought I was typing is not what I typed :roll: . Happens to me when I type on a flight.

What I wanted to type was that HAL always wanted to design the LUH around the a derivative of the Shakti engine. And it did so, Shakti is Ardiden 1H1. LUH uses the Ardiden 1U which has slightly better power performance especially in emergency modes.

Safran just jacked up the price for the transmission development. HAL tried to find other developers, but it would have been very difficult for anybody else to just come in and generate a result starting from ground zero (engines and transmissions are very close coupled). So, they even considered going for an alternate engine transmission combo. But, the Ardiden is such a well-proven solution for the high altitude situations that this was a tough choice. This stalled the program for two odd years.

Thankfully, they solved the problem by going with the Ardiden 1U engine and a transmission designed at home. The (3-stage sun plenary) transmission designed for LUH is a more conservative design than the cutting-edge 2-stage transmission used in the ALH. The ALH transmission is a thing of beauty and was a major cause for worry which took decades to master. The LUH transmission is not as compact, but can get the job done.

If you are interested, you can find details of its testing here.


Got It. Thanks for the clarification.
The desi transmission for the ALH is one of our bigeest achievements in the program. Good to know that the LUH transmission has also been developed inhouse.
I hope some day we can also reverse engineer/develop the engine as well. The HTSE effort is going on, but we should perhaps focus on an engine design which would be useful for the IMRH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Dec 2018 17:49

IR,
Where are we re the MTBO of the transmission?
There were issues with metal particulates in GB oil if I remember.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 14 Dec 2018 21:41

ks_sachin wrote:IR,
Where are we re the MTBO of the transmission?
There were issues with metal particulates in GB oil if I remember.


Steady progress made. Now there is a redesigned GB with reduced components and improvements to deal with wear and tear. I forgot what they call it. We will not hear metal particles going forward, I expect.

Fumbled on this one, not sure if it was posted here: http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/T ... 20IMRH.pdf

Tender for tech review of IMRH gear boxes.

The Transmission system design is based on the earlier experience of ALH/LCH/LUH in
developing 3 ton, 5.5 ton & 5.8 Ton class Helicopters. IMRH will be powered by twin engines
mounted on the forward of Main gearbox. The Transmission system Main Gear Box (MGB)
should take up around 22000 to 24000 RPM from engine and reduce to around 205 to 240 RPM
at Rotor Axis. It should also have potential to take Power of around 2X2000 kW to meet its
operational requirement. Tail Gearbox (TGB) should have potential to take up around 400 to 500
kW power at a speed of around 1050 to 1300 RPM. The TGB and IGB (intermediate Gear Box)
will be connected with segmented shafting. And also Helicopter will have blade folding option at
Main Rotor Blade and Tail Boom folding option. Different accessories such as Alternators,
Hydraulic Pumps, Utility Hydraulic Pump, AC compressor, Lube oil Pumps and emergency Lube
system etc; are required to be catered for in the Transmission system.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Haridas » 14 Dec 2018 21:49

Indranil wrote:What I wanted to type was that HAL always wanted to design the LUH around the a derivative of the Shakti engine. And it did so, Shakti is Ardiden 1H1. LUH uses the Ardiden 1U which has slightly better power performance especially in emergency modes.

Safran just jacked up the price for the transmission development. HAL tried to find other developers, but it would have been very difficult for anybody else to just come in and generate a result starting from ground zero (engines and transmissions are very close coupled). So, they even considered going for an alternate engine transmission combo. But, the Ardiden is such a well-proven solution for the high altitude situations that this was a tough choice. This stalled the program for two odd years..

Many years ago my brother (then CO of 114 HU, Siachen Pioneers, Leh) told me that Safran did the same bitching game when the engine was being considered for Cheetha (eventually called Cheetal); new engine shaft rotation was opposite to the direction of rotation of the helicopter blades, requiring a gear inverter.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 14 Dec 2018 22:13

we need to make sure the IMRH has exceptional range at sea level.
it should be designed to exceed the Sea King which allegedly could fly out 250km in blind navigation conditions from ship and unleash 2 sea eagle ASMs.
will also help loiter time on ASW missions.

need to avoid IAF hijacking it with their hot n high 18,000 feet spec sheet and keep it low , fast and mean..... its just unobtainium to have a single heli be a fast scary ASW heli and also a heavy lifter at high altitude.

need 4 Hyuga type LPH ships to carry 15 ASW helis each and exercise sea control. the landing well areas in stern could be used for unmanned ASW drone ships.

its time - key difference between warships like hyuga/izumo is their 30 knot speed and lack of any marine/LST component unlike the bumbling bathtube like mistral and juan carlos types. these are able to maintain station with speedy DDGs and hunt as a pack - lot of weapons and means business. imo need such economical 20,000t hyuga type ASW ships more than ADS1 type baby carriers ... there is a fitting case for ADS1 and Vikky to be more ASW oriented and pack it in with SH60. make life tough for enemy subs.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2018 22:32

KS sirji, JayS is more in the loop with this than me. I would trust what he says on this. May be Hari Nair sir can chime in.

They studied various shape of the teeth to get the best contact AFAIK. They solved the teeth grinding issue a few years back satisfactorily. But, it was a lot of work.

Haridas ji,
Comme d’habitude. It is my worry with Rafale too. Their stuff is good, but ooh la la expensive.


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