CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

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Prem Kumar
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Apr 2021 15:00

I will believe it when I see it. Like I mentioned in my post, doctrinally we were allowed to use UAVs for surveillance. But it seems to have not happened in this case. So, mere authorization won't achieve much.

I haven't seen a step-change in the # of Maoists killed or surrendered under Modi sarkar. Nor has a big crackdown happened to the OGWs either. A Varavara arrest here & there doesn't cut it. So, my take is that the Maoist movement has gone underground/hibernation to lay low.

GOI claims that there has been a significant reduction of the # of Maoist infested districts in India. I have my doubts about such claims.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 05 Apr 2021 15:16

Prem Kumar wrote:...GOI claims that there has been a significant reduction of the # of Maoist infested districts in India. I have my doubts about such claims.


Numbers say otherwise. The number of fatalities, incidents etc have all declined in last 10 years

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Apr 2021 15:20

Precisely my point. Why are the numbers decreasing?

Answer: Less contact with the enemy.

Its not like a disproportionate number of Maoists have surrendered or changed their minds. If not, where are they?

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Apr 2021 16:36

One more data point. Last week, a Rustom-1 crashed 15 Km near Bastar region. It ran into a wall while landing. Apparently, CRPF was evaluating its use in surveillance. It may have been for this operation .....

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 05 Apr 2021 17:48

I think the main issue for CAPF is lack of firepower to overpower the similarly armed opponent but have an advantage of terrain & IEDs.
The use of air power could be difficult because these encounters happen mostly under forest cover and CAPF also seem to lack ground based fire support. They should be equipped with Light strike vehicles & MPVs with remote weapons stations (RWS), with some of them equipped with medium caliber weapons. RWS can be more effective and efficient since they have targeting sights and are stabilised.

GOV & DRDO should consider VRDE's LAWV for such situations equipped with medium caliber weapons RWS

Image
Image

A smaller vehicle with RWS like this can be very effective in these situation
Image

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 05 Apr 2021 19:36

Kakarat ji, considering the past experiences of very powerful IEDs (photos shared earlier in this thread) smaller vehicles will be at a disadvantage, unless they are part of the convoy and not taking point position.

A mix of heavy MRAP trucks and smaller, nimbler fire support vehicles will be needed.Tactics will play an important role and there is no doubt that troops will work out Op procedures to maximise their effectiveness.

Fund allocation and priorities of the powers-that-be are the big question

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 05 Apr 2021 21:30

Manish Ji, I also mentioned MPV's & LSV with remote weapons stations. These smaller vehicles give better reach in jungle off road strikes, They should have better fire power with multiple caliber remote weapons stations on appropriate vehicles. I used the more generic MPV for MRAP, It should be a combination of different sizes of vehicles

My main point being CAPF should have Disproportionate firepower & armor protection to negate the terrain advantage & guerrilla warfare tactics used by the Naxals

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2021 05:41

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 54375?s=20 ---> Report: IAF Heron drone has captured footage of Maoists moving large number of their dead in tractors post Saturday encounter. Maoists also regrouped on Sunday to launch another attack, but the attempt was repulsed.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Apr 2021 11:05

Lt Gen H S Panag tweets a propaganda video praising Maoist tactics. His political sentiments have addled his brain. I won't dignify his tweet by posting it here.

Seriously, I wonder - if these kinds of people were once in the higher echelons of the Indian Army, we must've survived only because there are a good number of good men to counter-balance

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Apr 2021 12:31

Prem Kumar wrote:Lt Gen H S Panag tweets a propaganda video praising Maoist tactics. His political sentiments have addled his brain. I won't dignify his tweet by posting it here.

Seriously, I wonder - if these kinds of people were once in the higher echelons of the Indian Army, we must've survived only because there are a good number of good men to counter-balance

But you agree that the Maoists were displaying tactical astuteness.
If you heard what the officers said about the LTTE I wonder what you would say?

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby srai » 06 Apr 2021 15:02

Kakarat wrote:Manish Ji, I also mentioned MPV's & LSV with remote weapons stations. These smaller vehicles give better reach in jungle off road strikes, They should have better fire power with multiple caliber remote weapons stations on appropriate vehicles. I used the more generic MPV for MRAP, It should be a combination of different sizes of vehicles

My main point being CAPF should have Disproportionate firepower & armor protection to negate the terrain advantage & guerrilla warfare tactics used by the Naxals

How about CAPF with their own fleet of ALH Dhruv Mk.3/4 along with Rustom Mk.1 UAV as well as hand-held micro UAVs? Many more additions like Thermal/IR devices, radars that detect ground movements, IED detection and jamming, and encrypted radios.

Also, permanent basing of CAPF battalions made up of locals. I heard most are from elsewhere and in short rotation periods so not really familiar with local terrains, people and their traditions.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 06 Apr 2021 15:28

srai wrote:..

Also, permanent basing of CAPF battalions made up of locals. I heard most are from elsewhere and in short rotation periods so not really familiar with local terrains, people and their traditions.


This is perhaps the most critical part, and has been mentioned by a few analysts as well as experienced ex-Army and ex-Police officers.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2021 22:41

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 24326?s=20 ---> Look at the improvised rockets!! While most of us are saying use Airforce, but constitutionally can we ?

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 78497?s=20 ---> India must be the only state that lets it people get slaughtered by those who follow no rules, while it's decision makers are forced to follow archaic rules penned down decades back. Just use whatever it takes, hit back. We owe it to the families of those killed, make no mistake.

Image

Image

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 08 Apr 2021 22:44

From reading reports I understand reinforcements did not arrive until 3 hours after first contact with Maoists took place. There will be an investigation as to whether SOP was followed for these type incidents (Command centre would have a book on what to do), whether QRT was available and why QRT was not used (it could be because QRT size was small compared to Maoist force presence).

It might also be lack of sufficient numbers as most of forces were deployed in other areas as part of the same op.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby sajaym » 09 Apr 2021 10:12

Thus far, all the successful maoist attacks in this region clearly have been the result of command & tactics failure on part of the security forces. How is it that the same CRPF which is used successfully in J & K, is facing disastrous failures in Ct'garh?! Over the years it is also apparent that the maoists have been upgrading their capabilities & tactics. With this latest attack -- with a so-called U shaped ambush and the fact that they have escaped with assault rifles, ubgls and other kit of the slain soldiers, shows that they are now no longer some bow-and-arrow-hunting-rifle-wielding-poor-peoples...they are now people with Special Weapons And Tactics. Too continue operations against them with the regular MHA setup & regular pandus, will be a sure-fire recipe for continued disasters. It would be best to handover at least command of the anti-maoist operations to the AFSOD -- it is well with their scope.
The AFSOD is expected to serve as the main organisation responsible for carrying out special operations within and outside India

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby bharathp » 09 Apr 2021 10:25

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/e ... 2021-04-08
Tweeting about the operation, the Kashmir Zone Police said, "Shopian Encounter Update: 3 unidentified terrorists killed. Operation going on. Further details shall follow."

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 09 Apr 2021 23:32

Naxal problem does not need Army to be involved - it has enough on its plate in the border states of J&K and North East. CRPF and state police forces have done fairly well in recent times. There is however a question mark on CRPF - thanks to its involvement in the big losses.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Apr 2021 23:38

sajaym wrote:Thus far, all the successful maoist attacks in this region clearly have been the result of command & tactics failure on part of the security forces. How is it that the same CRPF which is used successfully in J & K, is facing disastrous failures in Ct'garh?!

In J&K both the IA and local police have developed an extensive HUMINT network over the years. This is what enables them to find and eliminate every new terrorist commander who takes charge. Also there is very heavy presence of security forces everywhere and this allows them to dominate any area very quickly. CRPF also benefits from all of this, but despite all of this attacks like Pulwama can still happen. Intelligence has long been a problem in maoist infested areas. The local people are a lot more scared of the maoists and lack of roads and government presence meant that they were completely at their mercy. Plus of course some of them have sympathies with the maoists as well. EVen this time there was bad intelligence involved that led to the ambush.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 11 Apr 2021 19:09

shyamd wrote:From reading reports I understand reinforcements did not arrive until 3 hours after first contact with Maoists took place. There will be an investigation as to whether SOP was followed for these type incidents (Command centre would have a book on what to do), whether QRT was available and why QRT was not used (it could be because QRT size was small compared to Maoist force presence).

It might also be lack of sufficient numbers as most of forces were deployed in other areas as part of the same op.

Chhattisgarh Maoist ambush: Viral audioclips recount valour
Can someone please post the article in full? Not able to do it.

Incredible bravery by forces and good training actually prevented the headcount being even higher... There were issues in sending chopper for rescue due to worries for safety of aircrew (which is quite normal in these circumstances). Normally IAF choppers would fly with some aircover/armed support for CSAR despite the worry for safety. In this case IAF Heron was despatched to do recce first before rescue. I think the issue is no authorisation by GOI to provide covering fire while extraction takes place. Though I believe the rules permit firing in defence or only if chopper is attacked.

In Afghanistan for example if forces were surrounded in ambush, the SOP is for ALL fixed wing a/c in region to stop their mission and immediately reach the site of ambush and provide Close Air Support. CSAR Helis airborne almost immediately the notice is given and during the journey the planning would take place on how to conduct the rescue operation. The CSAR helis would fly in twos/fours with at least one providing covering fire and recce'ing for enemy.

Some versions in press say the chopper did leave but couldn't find a place to land due to topography... (understandable but I'm not sure how true this is..possibly a cover your backside story)...

During cross border strikes - 4 Para was on standby along with IAF attack choppers and other fixedwing fleet for rescue mission.

Without changes in RoE and authorising airpower if forces are ambushed or trapped I don't see how this is resolved. The lack of authorisation is a political decision not to escalate against the Maoists.

What does GOI do now?
IAF does not have sufficient air resources at the moment. I think SOP will have to change and I expect air resources from other organisations will be moved to support anti-Maoist ops and authorisation provided to IAF to conduct fighting withdrawals.

Will there be a revenge strikes by forces? They will go for some obvious and easy targets (if such exist).. Overall there are limited options on the table. Maoist problem needs a political settlement/negotiations.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby srai » 11 Apr 2021 20:24

sajaym wrote:Thus far, all the successful maoist attacks in this region clearly have been the result of command & tactics failure on part of the security forces. How is it that the same CRPF which is used successfully in J & K, is facing disastrous failures in Ct'garh?! Over the years it is also apparent that the maoists have been upgrading their capabilities & tactics. With this latest attack -- with a so-called U shaped ambush and the fact that they have escaped with assault rifles, ubgls and other kit of the slain soldiers, shows that they are now no longer some bow-and-arrow-hunting-rifle-wielding-poor-peoples...they are now people with Special Weapons And Tactics. Too continue operations against them with the regular MHA setup & regular pandus, will be a sure-fire recipe for continued disasters. It would be best to handover at least command of the anti-maoist operations to the AFSOD -- it is well with their scope.
The AFSOD is expected to serve as the main organisation responsible for carrying out special operations within and outside India



https://m.timesofindia.com/city/raipur/ ... 907161.cms

Image
Stolen
7 x AK-47
2 x INSAS
1 x LMG

2000 vs 400. Ambush lines stretched 2km. Some of the units bore the brunt of the ambush. Slow progress of the rescue party due to fear of further ambush situation.

Maoists - 40+ dead; unknown injured
CoBRA, STF and DRG - 23 dead; 33 injured

Urgently required are a dedicated fleet of UAVs and Helicopters.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Apr 2021 23:43

Huge success for our boys against Islamic terrorism in Kashmir. 12 pigs eliminated in the last 3 days!

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indian-security-forces-eliminate-12-terrorists-including-the-culprits-who-killed-territorial-army-jawan

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby mody » 13 Apr 2021 18:41

The intelligence and local support for the security forces seem to have improved post article 370 in Kashmir. After almost any major terror strike, the pigs are eliminated within a fairly short period of time. AUGH outfit now completely eliminated. Al-badr seems to be next, as the number of active members is small. LeT and JeM have greater flow from across the border with almost all foreign militants being from these two outfits.
The only missing part right now is that number of foreign/paki terrorists being eliminated is small. Most of those being killed are local youths who had taken up arms over the last 5 years.

However, since 2018, almost 1,000 have been eliminated and the shelf life of every new recruit is reducing progressively. The current covid surge has put paid to the expected tourist rush for the current summer season. Maybe by Diwali time, if covid subsides, then tourism would take off in a big way and by mid to end of 2022, the situation in Kashmir would probably be better than it was in 2013-14, before the floods.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 18 Apr 2021 15:48

shyamd wrote:Chhattisgarh Maoist ambush: Viral audioclips recount valour
Can someone please post the article in full? Not able to do it.

Incredible bravery by forces and good training actually prevented the headcount being even higher... There were issues in sending chopper for rescue due to worries for safety of aircrew (which is quite normal in these circumstances). Normally IAF choppers would fly with some aircover/armed support for CSAR despite the worry for safety. In this case IAF Heron was despatched to do recce first before rescue. I think the issue is no authorisation by GOI to provide covering fire while extraction takes place. Though I believe the rules permit firing in defence or only if chopper is attacked.

In Afghanistan for example if forces were surrounded in ambush, the SOP is for ALL fixed wing a/c in region to stop their mission and immediately reach the site of ambush and provide Close Air Support. CSAR Helis airborne almost immediately the notice is given and during the journey the planning would take place on how to conduct the rescue operation. The CSAR helis would fly in twos/fours with at least one providing covering fire and recce'ing for enemy.

Some versions in press say the chopper did leave but couldn't find a place to land due to topography... (understandable but I'm not sure how true this is..possibly a cover your backside story)...

During cross border strikes - 4 Para was on standby along with IAF attack choppers and other fixedwing fleet for rescue mission.

Without changes in RoE and authorising airpower if forces are ambushed or trapped I don't see how this is resolved. The lack of authorisation is a political decision not to escalate against the Maoists.

What does GOI do now?
IAF does not have sufficient air resources at the moment. I think SOP will have to change and I expect air resources from other organisations will be moved to support anti-Maoist ops and authorisation provided to IAF to conduct fighting withdrawals.

Will there be a revenge strikes by forces? They will go for some obvious and easy targets (if such exist).. Overall there are limited options on the table. Maoist problem needs a political settlement/negotiations.


Looks like no change in SOP and no major change in operational posture other than plan to increase fixed locations/bases inside jungle. Maoists elude troops because they sit deep inside jungle and anyone/thing approaching can be spotted.

NIA announced a financial reward for the Maoist commander to ratchet up pressure but these won't make much difference.

No easy solutions....

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby YashG » 18 Apr 2021 18:24

Financial funding squeeze is a very viable way to reduce insurgency. Most mining companies in tribal areas pay protection money to insurgents. I do not understand why cant we stop companies from paying protection money. Unlike jnk maoists get thr money locally.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 18 Apr 2021 22:28

Air cover in these scenarios won't work because of the forest canopy. Also it's very expensive, will give away the stealth factor of a patrol, has horrible visuals and friendly fire possibility.

What can work is gps guided artillery or mortar shells. Establish a fire base on a dominating hilltop. Send out patrols, if there is contact, the patrol contacts the firebase to bring down gps guided fire on the ambush party. naxals mostly have small arms, so the ambush is at most a 300m range. IF the CRPF patrol can get a location on the ambush party, very accurate fire can be brought down within minutes. It will make these ambushes a thing of the past and end this war. Only the IED threat will remain after this.

CRPF already has 81mm mortars, so they know how to use these large caliber weapons. For 120mm mortars, gps guided shell technology is available off the shelf.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 18 Apr 2021 23:02

It troubling discussing heavy artillery against criminals. Surveillance drones and armed helos with 50 caliber guns is fine. This is prime forest area of India with wide biodiversity. If you haven't travelled at least once in your life to see such places, I would advise it.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 18 Apr 2021 23:19

Mort Walker wrote:It troubling discussing heavy artillery against criminals. Surveillance drones and armed helos with 50 caliber guns is fine. This is prime forest area of India with wide biodiversity. If you haven't travelled at least once in your life to see such places, I would advise it.


"Criminals" do not set up dynamic ambushes taking on a full infantry battalion and force the battalion to retreat. They do not have weapons like LMGs, high power rifles such as SLRs and INSAS, grenades, rocket launchers and IEDs.

Drones and helos cant see past the forest canopy and they are most likely not going to work. Drones work well in wide open areas like say Iraq or Ladakh. No one has successfully used drones in dense forests. At most you will be able to detect a camp or a cooking fire. And how do you distinguish that from a normal adivasi congregation? Heli gunships wont be able to identify friend from foe visually. To do so they will need them to come close enough that they are in the range of the naxal weapons as well, which is a nono.

In this specific ambush, the ambush would have been broken with perhaps just 10 guided shells. It would cost a lot less in manpower, money and bring a quick end to the war. When in a war, you must aim to end the war as quickly as possible. That is the most humane way.

Within one or two years, and at the cost of perhaps less than 500 shells the naxal war would be over. Welfare state would be able to reach the last tribal and make sure this bleeding wound on India would end.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 19 Apr 2021 02:28

Well if they do use any of that I hope they spend time on planning how to keep it quiet. The snakes in our media, political parties and assorted "intellectuals" will go to town shouting at everyone from Bihar to Brussels that the big bad Mudi is blowing up poor, innocent tribals with artillery and drones.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby S_Madhukar » 19 Apr 2021 20:17

Where were the Maoists training for such an ambush.... this is where our SAR, recon, signals intel practice should happen... if we can not do this in our jungles, we can't in enemy territory...

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 20 Apr 2021 01:48

Body count alone does not resolve the problem. This will be solved politically. You can't use brute force to solve these issues - Vietnam and Afghanistan as an example.


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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby srai » 21 Apr 2021 00:55

shyamd wrote:Body count alone does not resolve the problem. This will be solved politically. You can't use brute force to solve these issues - Vietnam and Afghanistan as an example.

And most importantly economically! Create good basics—infrastructure, education, jobs and healthcare—and poor/marginalized have less incentives for violence.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 21 Apr 2021 03:22

shyamd wrote:Body count alone does not resolve the problem. This will be solved politically.


Only a military defeat for the naxals can create a context in which peace can arrive. A political dialogue was tried with the naxals and it utterly failed. Naxals are basically highly radicalized leftist leadership that has brain washed gullible and exploited tribals into picking up weapons and establishing so called liberated zones where the Naxal leadership is the govt. They collect taxes, use it to buy weapons/explosives, mete out violent retribution to anyone who disobeys them, and use tribals as gunfodder.

Once a liberated zone is breached with roads, CRPF/BSF and the welfare state reaches there, the tribals themselves dont want anything to do with naxals. They are quite happy as long as they (particularly their women) are left alone, they arent displaced from the lands they live on, get a few months an year of NREGA, some rations, some vaccinations/medicine, and some schooling.

There can be no 'political solution' with the naxal leadership. They are maoist murderers and must be wiped out. Brains spilt on the forest floors with flies crawling across eyeballs.

You can't use brute force to solve these issues - Vietnam and Afghanistan as an example.


Completely different situations.. Both the Viets and Afghanistan had highly radicalized/committed populations. Tribals are nothing like that. Both had R&R safe areas and contiguous external sponsors/supporters of the violence. Naxals are basically believers in an evil foreign ideology that is using the most vulnerable Indians to carry out their Che/Sundance kid fantasies.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 24 Apr 2021 14:26

According to Maoists - GOI conducted covert air strikes against Madhvi Hidma faction using “drones and helicopters”. If true I think this is a one off move to send a message. This was the only option left on the table.

Depending on effectiveness they may do a few more in the coming days.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby YashG » 24 Apr 2021 14:56

srai wrote:
shyamd wrote:Body count alone does not resolve the problem. This will be solved politically. You can't use brute force to solve these issues - Vietnam and Afghanistan as an example.

And most importantly economically! Create good basics—infrastructure, education, jobs and healthcare—and poor/marginalized have less incentives for violence.


We should not solve a problem through the lives of jawans, a problem that can be solved by civil society. One reason why our forces are able to eliminate hardened, cross-border trained & better equipped forces in Kashmir but similar forces somehow fail against a primitive, less well trained or funded forces of tribal origin is - these jawans are not fully convinced that this is their battle to fight.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Cyrano » 25 Apr 2021 23:31

Naxalites were a big problem in earlier Andhra Pradesh for decades, in the northern region of current Telangana state, from early 80s to mid 90s. Warangal upwards no public official dared to go. There were even broad day light kidnappinds of ministers from Hyd city - state capital - that shook the Govt. I moved out of AP around that time, and lost track of how Naxalism mostly ended in that region and how it moved northwards into MH/TS/Odisha/Chattisgarh junction.

I get the feeling we are solving the same problem again and again due to political ineptitude which also reflects in how field operations are planned and executed.

What AP did to eliminate them was as much political as use of force I think. May be KLN Murthy garu, Vayutavan garu or others may know more about that period.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 25 Apr 2021 23:42

I thought they sent in the Greyhounds...?

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Cyrano » 26 Apr 2021 01:42

Yes Greyhounds were sent IIRC, many naxals surrendered in publicised events which demoralised their cadre and the movement died down slowly in AP. I dont have the détails though.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Bart S » 26 Apr 2021 01:47

Also, AP saw a boom in education, jobs, industry and a lot of youth's goal in life shifted from 'revolutionary poetry' to getting a H1B. None of this seems to be happening in Chhattisgarh or the boondocks of Mah.

Cyrano
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Cyrano » 26 Apr 2021 02:08

IT and services boom came a decade later, Naxalism was dealt with before that.


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