Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

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Atmavik
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 30 Apr 2021 23:53

I Arjun program goes the way of the Trishul program. Trishul did not succeed but all the other SAM programs have benefitted from it.

hope one day we see a next gen Tank manufactured by Mahindra/TATA/L&T/Kalyani etc..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 May 2021 08:47

Atmavik wrote:I Arjun program goes the way of the Trishul program. Trishul did not succeed but all the other SAM programs have benefitted from it.

hope one day we see a next gen Tank manufactured by Mahindra/TATA/L&T/Kalyani etc..


The next generation Indian Army combat vehicles would be the armata family as an emergency purchase in 2030. In the meantime no GSQR will be issued. All domestic efforts will be discouraged by the army.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 01 May 2021 11:23

In the current pandemic/ eco crisis,the Armata may be far too expensive for the GOI unless budget strings are substantially loosened,as likely as Pak with sincerity passing the " peace pipe"!

Barring the LT req., I don't think that beefing up the armoured corps even more will happen in the near future. ICVs and other AVs of desi origin may get the nod.Extra arty,MBRLs and tacuical missiles may be preferred along with extra air support in dealing with the PRC in the Himalayas.
What may happen in the future is some sort of JV where the Armata tech. may be used or indigenised in India with our own tank tech. developed for Arjun,etc., ,given the long development gestation time it has taken us to deliver Arjun.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 01 May 2021 20:05

Any why exactly would Russia give cutting edge Tank technology to cut itself from an export client unless it is assured revenue stream of license fees for glorified screwdrivergiri?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 01 May 2021 22:39

Philip wrote:In the current pandemic/ eco crisis,the Armata may be far too expensive for the GOI unless budget strings are substantially loosened,as likely as Pak with sincerity passing the " peace pipe"!

Barring the LT req., I don't think that beefing up the armoured corps even more will happen in the near future. ICVs and other AVs of desi origin may get the nod.Extra arty,MBRLs and tacuical missiles may be preferred along with extra air support in dealing with the PRC in the Himalayas.
What may happen in the future is some sort of JV where the Armata tech. may be used or indigenised in India with our own tank tech. developed for Arjun,etc., ,given the long development gestation time it has taken us to deliver Arjun.

we have a better tank in ARJUN than that piece of human manure you call armata. Indian engineers worked and reworked multiple times to made sure everything works in ARJUN unlike armata.
ARJUN represents the best of western philosophy of tank building where the person in the tank is considered important unlike the russian philosophy where people are no more important than a common housefly.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 01 May 2021 23:31

Philip wrote:...
What may happen in the future is some sort of JV where the Armata tech. may be used...


Genuinely curious as to what specifically are you referring to by 'Armata' Tech?

I hope you are not including purely design elements like modularity for multi-type vehicles and/or crew seating in hull.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 02 May 2021 00:45

rajsunder wrote:
Philip wrote:In the current pandemic/ eco crisis,the Armata may be far too expensive for the GOI unless budget strings are substantially loosened,as likely as Pak with sincerity passing the " peace pipe"!

Barring the LT req., I don't think that beefing up the armoured corps even more will happen in the near future. ICVs and other AVs of desi origin may get the nod.Extra arty,MBRLs and tacuical missiles may be preferred along with extra air support in dealing with the PRC in the Himalayas.
What may happen in the future is some sort of JV where the Armata tech. may be used or indigenised in India with our own tank tech. developed for Arjun,etc., ,given the long development gestation time it has taken us to deliver Arjun.

we have a better tank in ARJUN than that piece of human manure you call armata. Indian engineers worked and reworked multiple times to made sure everything works in ARJUN unlike armata.
ARJUN represents the best of western philosophy of tank building where the person in the tank is considered important unlike the russian philosophy where people are no more important than a common housefly.

Raj - this poster is repugnant in his constant repeated rhetoric against domestic systems and focused repeated praise of roosi systems. I applaud your views and post. Right now we need to look inward for solutions. No more roosi products. No F-35s nor Rafales, no T-xxs, no more Talwars. Only by building INDIAN INDUSTRY can we build a new, better India. If the admins have any respect for Indian dignity, they would ban this poster permanently. To allow a platform for him to repeat this garbage against Indian products is a shame.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Anujan » 02 May 2021 01:16

Manish_P wrote:Genuinely curious as to what specifically are you referring to by 'Armata' Tech?

I hope you are not including purely design elements like modularity for multi-type vehicles and/or crew seating in hull.


Its not related to armor or seating, it is related to faster procurement.

It is called Vodka and Natasha.

None of the domestic products have this technology as far as I am aware of. Domestic products still use vintage technology like trials, contracts and negotiation, which makes procurement very slow.

Hopefully Russia agrees for local screwdrivergiri and like Bhishma for T90 and Bahadur for Mig 27, we can call the domestic version of fast track procurement "Arrack and Ayesha"

When arrack and Ayesha come online, we can buy for costlier price, without trials, but faster.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 02 May 2021 03:49

Pratyush wrote:
Atmavik wrote:I Arjun program goes the way of the Trishul program. Trishul did not succeed but all the other SAM programs have benefitted from it.

hope one day we see a next gen Tank manufactured by Mahindra/TATA/L&T/Kalyani etc..


The next generation Indian Army combat vehicles would be the armata family as an emergency purchase in 2030. In the meantime no GSQR will be issued. All domestic efforts will be discouraged by the army.


I more hopefully. Look at the ALH and now lch & luh . Look at Tejas. Slowly but surely things are changing.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 02 May 2021 09:19

Indian defence establishment first prepare for a deception plan for a strategic project before defining GSQR's. Arjun or a far better indigenous platform will get inducted in due course. Don't get fooled by the smoke and glass. And who knows Admiral Phillips may be part of the deception scheme.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 02 May 2021 09:31

pushkar.bhat wrote:Indian defence establishment first prepare for a deception plan for a strategic project before defining GSQR's. Arjun or a far better indigenous platform will get inducted in due course. Don't get fooled by the smoke and glass. And who knows Admiral Phillips may be part of the deception scheme.


maskirovka

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 02 May 2021 09:37

Come on - that's trying to apologize for extremely corrupt behavior of the IA. India needs to build itself better. Arjun could have been inducted in huge numbers for nearly a decade! Simply amazing explanation. The tank has been run aground for nearly 20 years and sabotaged at every instant - and that is a plan! Could have fooled me! Can i get what you're taking? Please!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 02 May 2021 09:52

@Vivek_K lets accept the fact that maturing the various sub-systems on the Arjun did take time. We still don't have the engine and certain other systems completely worked out. While I too would have loved to see the Arjun inducted in numbers a decade ago, all is not lost. The project has allowed us to develop the critical technologies required for the development of different armoured platforms. In fact, today we have reached a stage where the forces and the politicians clearly understand that for us to manage the threat of 2 wars, and a USA which is not completely dependable, will require going the French way and indigenising all the critical combat arms.

My expectation is that Arjun will become another Prithvi - which became the test bed for all the different missile technologies we wanted to develop. In the next few years I see one of the private sector players realising the Arjun or its successor for the army in substantial numbers. Till then you will find all the DG Armoured giving you all kinds of reasons for not brining in the Arjun.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 02 May 2021 12:33

pushkar.bhat wrote:... In fact, today we have reached a stage where the forces and the politicians clearly understand that for us to manage the threat of 2 wars, and a USA which is not completely dependable, will require going the French way and indigenising all the critical combat arms ...


That's the weak link in the chain.. especially in a democrazy like ours! If there is a regime change, it won't be long before we are back to square one - importing everything which gives a handsome comission.

Some times i wish our politicos had set up Mil Industries instead of just sugar mills and sand/cement companies. We would have been an arms exporting nation....

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 02 May 2021 19:56

pushkar.bhat wrote:@Vivek_K lets accept the fact that maturing the various sub-systems on the Arjun did take time. We still don't have the engine and certain other systems completely worked out. While I too would have loved to see the Arjun inducted in numbers a decade ago, all is not lost. The project has allowed us to develop the critical technologies required for the development of different armoured platforms. In fact, today we have reached a stage where the forces and the politicians clearly understand that for us to manage the threat of 2 wars, and a USA which is not completely dependable, will require going the French way and indigenising all the critical combat arms.

My expectation is that Arjun will become another Prithvi - which became the test bed for all the different missile technologies we wanted to develop. In the next few years I see one of the private sector players realising the Arjun or its successor for the army in substantial numbers. Till then you will find all the DG Armoured giving you all kinds of reasons for not brining in the Arjun.

That’s sad - all the best Indian equipment that are truly world class are relegated to tech demonstrators while all the money is used to buy unserviceable foreign junk. Do we have an engine for the T-series? We have set up production for them locally because we have what 3500+ Imported junk.

Paying lip service to indigenisation by saying we understand without a single order for domestic weapons exposes how corrupt we are and apologists jump out of the wood work to protect this system of denying local products. The economic benefits of domestic systems has been shown above - conversely, consider the economic damage that successive governments have done to the country by imports.

Now more than ever - India must build its own industry and cancel all foreign orders.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 May 2021 16:28

Adm.Filipov,Ha!Ha! "Part of the deception scheme".Gents while it humours me, pl. don.'t give me such enormous ability to influence decisions.I'm merely an observer,analyst and postman of the scenario.I offer my views based upon facts of the matter available. All I further wish to say is that successive army chiefs and generals heading the armoured corps have been in the best position to assess the IA's requirements from time to time,and various govts. from Cong. to BJP have supported them in their decisions.Therefore it's grossly unfair to accuse the IA of being complicit in some sort of conspiracy in the matter of MBT procurement.

Regarding the LT,SoKo has thrown its hat into the ring offering a "med. tank" with a 105mm gun based upon the K-21 IFV chassis.Weighing 25t,it uses a lot of composites and features a Belgian 105mm two-man turret.105mm is also the calibre of the Chin LT. The weight of below 25t has been fixed for logistic purposes by the IA in its RFP,which would qualify the K-21.The Ru challenger, the Sprut on offer weighs around 18t much lighter but has amore powerful main gun,125mm same as on our T-series MBTs.It will probably be cheaper than the SoKo beast but is its armour equiv to the SoKo option?. Since the gestation period for a desi LT will take around 5 years,an interim import appears to be the route which the IA is set on.The IA will reportedly test contenders rigorously and then take a decision.

PS: Here's an Oct. 2018 Diplomat report on EFA Avadi to build 1000 new engines for the T-72s.EFA building two types,750HP and 1000HP for T-72s and T-90s.Interesting read.
https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/india-t ... ank-force/

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby John » 03 May 2021 23:23

Philip wrote:The weight of below 25t has been fixed for logistic purposes by the IA in its RFP,which would qualify the K-21.The Ru challenger, the Sprut on offer weighs around 18t much lighter but has amore powerful main gun,125mm same as on our T-series MBTs.

It’s Sprut-SDm1 not Sprut-sd which caught fire in a parade and Russians have quietly canned it in favor of new one based on bmp-4. This is still under testing I doubt we would throw money at something which hasn’t finished development yet.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 04 May 2021 07:52

John wrote:
Philip wrote:The weight of below 25t has been fixed for logistic purposes by the IA in its RFP,which would qualify the K-21.The Ru challenger, the Sprut on offer weighs around 18t much lighter but has amore powerful main gun,125mm same as on our T-series MBTs.

It’s Sprut-SDm1 not Sprut-sd which caught fire in a parade and Russians have quietly canned it in favor of new one based on bmp-4. This is still under testing I doubt we would throw money at something which hasn’t finished development yet.


BMD 4 you mean..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby John » 04 May 2021 08:23

Oh yes fat fingered it and it is lengthened variant as it has 7 instead of 5 wheels found in BMD 4.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 04 May 2021 10:17

Koreans are offering k21 with 105 and 120 mm gun options.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 04 May 2021 10:18

What is the armor comparison between the two (material, weight,
thickness)?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 04 May 2021 10:40

The Sprut option touting itself as the lightest is a joke a it has minimal armour protection and no APS. If it were now to up-armour itelf, add an APS and then add a more powerful engine to take care of the Thrust to Power ratio guess where its weight will be?

Anyway as per new reports BAE of UK (Air-droppable Expeditionary Light Tank with 105 MM Gun), General Dynamics of US (with its 120 MM gun and less then 30 Ton tank with MBT like armor protection) and Elbit Systems of Israel (Sabrah Light tank with 105 MM gun - exported to Phillipines) have now emerged as interested in participating in the RFP/RFI process.

I feel K21 (with option of both 105 and 120 MM gun) should be preferred. L&T and Hanwa already have a technical tie up on the K series, L&T delivered all the K9's before the contract time and their plant after completion of K9 contract is now ready to churn out the K21.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 04 May 2021 14:42

In the past only the airforce had a zoo of imported aircraft types. Now we are looking forward to the army building a zoo of imported equipment.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby S_Madhukar » 04 May 2021 17:17

While K21 would be a good short term buy I hope SK is not another sugar daddy in the making ... at this rate our forces will look more like a UN force than an Indian one :(

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 04 May 2021 19:03

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 76290?s=20 ---> South Korea’s Hanwha Defense is pushing a new combat vehicle with a 105mm turret mounted on its K21 IFV chassis for the Indian Army's light tank requirement: South Korean media.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 May 2021 02:06

Vips,any commonality of components with the K-9 would be a plus point for the K-21. At only 18t the Sprut could be improved with ERA plus an APU within another 4-5t. Arjun 1A with 60 odd improvements added just 6 to 8t. If after evaluation all the contenders make the grade,cost will be a factor at such a time of the China virus.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 05 May 2021 03:21

Admiral PhilipovJi, the improvements in sprut if done would certainly add more then 4-5 tons as these are heavy changes viz Armour, ERA, Engines etc. Whereas the changes in Arjun were more with the small components.

Even Thailand which buy's Tata Military Trucks has come up wtih a 8X8/8X4 25 ton ICV and putting up a Turret from abroad and further making a tracked version of it.

What is stopping DRDO/L&T from going full blast at making a Light Tank? It is so distressing. :(

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 05 May 2021 08:33

Philip wrote:Vips,any commonality of components with the K-9 would be a plus point for the K-21. At only 18t the Sprut could be improved with ERA plus an APU within another 4-5t. Arjun 1A with 60 odd improvements added just 6 to 8t. If after evaluation all the contenders make the grade,cost will be a factor at such a time of the China virus.

You add the ERA etc etc and you alter the power to weight ratio. Then the complaint will be it is underpowered!!!!
You are looking at the Spurt but first, look at the BMD4 and its rationale within the Russian forces. For the role it was created and for the Russian doctrines you may find that the power plant was optimised for the weight it was expected to have. A turret would have stretched that optimisation and now adding ERA attachments, ERA tiles, APU etc....good luck...

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 05 May 2021 08:35

Vips Thailand has inducted the Stryker.
they don't have the capability to design their own let alone modify something..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 May 2021 09:28

Given the way things are going with emergency purchase after emergency purchase. Even that is now being changed to emergency lease.

It is inevitable that the Indian armed forces will become United Nations armed forces.

No matter, in 30 years time when the zoo is complete. People will support the zoo by saying that only 10% or whatever % of the equipment will be effected by sanctions. This is good for our strategic autonomy.

Conveniently ignoring that fact that if equipment is Indian designed and manufactured. Then we will be always on autonomous.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 05 May 2021 19:06

ks_sachin wrote:Vips Thailand has inducted the Stryker.
they don't have the capability to design their own let alone modify something..


Stryker is for their immediate needs. They are also developing their own - Panus - with inputs from China, Turkey and Singapore.Engine is 600 HP and transmission is from Allison.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 05 May 2021 21:13

It would be a shame to develop a light tank using a foreign vendor!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 05 May 2021 21:52

Vips wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Vips Thailand has inducted the Stryker.
they don't have the capability to design their own let alone modify something..


Stryker is for their immediate needs. They are also developing their own - Panus - with inputs from China, Turkey and Singapore.Engine is 600 HP and transmission is from Allison.



If Thailand inducts this before we induct Whap/krestel then it will call for some deep introspection at all levels

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 May 2021 02:28

The Chins have realised that their LT with a 105mm gun is outgunned by the IA's T-72s and T-90s with their 125mm guns in the Depsang sector and have reportedly reinforced their forces with their heavier T-99 MBTs.Around 350 tanks have now been deployed by the PLA. Inthe light of this,how urgent is the LT req. for the IA? In the past,we had both French AMX and PT-76 amphibs in service at one point in time. Inthe '71 war they reportedly turned the tide in the Battle of Garibpur.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 06 May 2021 03:40

Philip wrote:The Chins have realised that their LT with a 105mm gun is outgunned by the IA's T-72s and T-90s with their 125mm guns in the Depsang sector and have reportedly reinforced their forces with their heavier T-99 MBTs.Around 350 tanks have now been deployed by the PLA. Inthe light of this,how urgent is the LT req. for the IA? In the past,we had both French AMX and PT-76 amphibs in service at one point in time. Inthe '71 war they reportedly turned the tide in the Battle of Garibpur.

Field Marshal you should have brought this up before sprinkling the Spurt!!!

Ooh I forgot the spurt has a 125mm gun!!!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 06 May 2021 08:40

this constant clamor for russian and now SoKo imports is tiering.

if we had supported Arjun then we could make cool videos like this

Desert storm - Merkava tanks of Harel brigade


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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 06 May 2021 09:15

The IDFs operational environment is different to ours

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 06 May 2021 09:21

ks_sachin wrote:The IDFs operational environment is different to ours


You missed the thrust of the argument.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 06 May 2021 09:28

ks_sachin wrote:The IDFs operational environment is different to ours



you are right. i posted the video for its cool factor.

the heavy tank is for open plains or desert.btw the Merkava did not fair well when entering the narrow vadis of Lebanon but it was more to do with terrain/tactics than the tank itself, not sure if a light/medium tank would do any better.

one can argue that our Op requirement is the most diverse( +55 degrees to -55). i wish we stuck to Arjun for the desert sectors at least.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby uddu » 06 May 2021 13:29

There are many such cool videos of the Arjun starting with the Discovery channel program. Already posted many times here. Just posting as a reminder.

Also recent induction saw a video being made

There are many who take content from these and make videos as well.


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