Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Mar 2021 16:23

If SP Arty Viajra goes to Ladakh, it will be in support of the Armd Bde or Inf Bde but not under command. It will be under command of Div Arty or Corps Arty. In my opinion it can support both inf and tanks so just because it is based on a tracked veh does not mean it should only be for armour. It can also do a mini fire by maneouver op. Maybe it opens up the assault for an offensive.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Mar 2021 16:26

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:So where do SP artillery fit in an armored formation?


K-9 will go to the Armored Division's organic artillery brigade according to Mr Vats.


Correct

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 01 Mar 2021 21:07

ramana wrote:great knowledge transfer.

I too hope more K-9s

One question how are Independent armored brigades organized?

3 tank regiments and 1 SP regiment plus medium regiment?


Independent Armored Brigade in plains have 3+1 structure - 3 x Armored Regiments + 1 x Mechanized Infantry Regiment.

In support, they've organic 1 x Medium Regiment.

For mountains, anecdotal evidence suggests that we've gone for either 2+1 or 2+2 structure. Either ways, it will have 1 x Medium Regiment.

In case of infantry or mountain brigades, they've 1 x 105mm Field Regiment.

Plus, they've organic support elements like Signal Coy, Engineers Coy, Transport Coy, Ordnance Coy etc.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 01 Mar 2021 21:11

BTW, if you have a look at the picture of K-9 in public domain (R-Day parade), you'll see that they're part of 31 Armored Division under 21 Strike Corps.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 06 Mar 2021 22:23

Accidents are complex phenomena: OFB on two recent mishaps involving its 105mm field guns

:
:
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Border Security Force (BSF) constable Satish Kumar was killed and four of his colleagues were injured on Tuesday night at Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer due to a "premature blast" in the muzzle of a 105 mm field gun, according to the Rajasthan Police.

On February 23, Indian Army's Gunner Sayan Ghosh was killed and two others were injured in Akhnoor sector of Jammu during their training when the barrel of a 105 mm field gun suddenly burst into pieces and the flying splinters hit them a defence spokesperson had said.
:
:
:

:( :( :(

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2021 06:32

So two more recent incidents with same 105mm premature explosions in barrel.

Wish we could see the pictures of the post incident.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 08 Mar 2021 19:41

Also the same non chalant cover your backside replies from OFB with least concern for our soldiers life. OFB should be privatized Lock, Stock and Barrel(Sic).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby YashG » 09 Mar 2021 18:14



Weapon accidents are complex cz weapons are complex engg. goods. That is why OFBs have to make it , not firecracker mfg. in Sivakasi. Having built a 4th gen aricraft - the only reason these mishaps happen is that mgmt, processes & quality ctrl at OFBs is lacking.

Yes they should be privatized. I wondered why GoI stopped in its track for implementing privatization. Only this GoI has the courage to do it.


------
And if privatization is too much of a hot cake to handle, then with an executive order, ownership of OFBs should be moved to defence forces under CDS. Then let the armed forces take the right decision on them. No one can oppose the armed forces decision.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 10 Mar 2021 21:19

recent 105s barrel burst was with BSF training on the gun, it could be barrel
1. poor QA QC in maintaining the gun
2. manufacturing defect
3. fire SoP not followed
or
Shell defect poor storage poor handling even inaccurate dialing data can cause shell to go off inside barrel

point is hold your horses till report come back.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 16 Mar 2021 22:36

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 98516?s=20 ---> In case you don't know, two of the longest-serving Artillery weapon systems, the 130mm Self Propelled M-46 Catapult Guns and the 160mm Tampella mortars were decommissioned today at MFFR.

https://twitter.com/SupratikSaumya/stat ... 33154?s=20 ---> The 160mm Tampella Mortar was actually imported from Israel and is the M-58, this was developed into the M-66. Soltam was formed by Solel Boneh of Israel and Tampella of Finland in 1950 with Tampella providing the know-how and machinery and Solel Boneh the production facilities.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2021 00:11

New Artillery for Indian Army

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uGpLEK9RkQ


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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby asbchakri » 07 Apr 2021 07:32

^^
Looks like link is broken

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2021 08:07

Thank you for letting me know. I have added the link in the post.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Apr 2021 03:41

What has replaced the mortar? The K-9s have been inducted, RFP for more SP pieces too.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Apr 2021 08:31

Philip wrote:What has replaced the mortar? The K-9s have been inducted, RFP for more SP pieces too.


Field Marshall
Do we need a 160mm mortar replacement?
K9 and SP are different use cases....

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 15 Apr 2021 21:20

Philip wrote:What has replaced the mortar? The K-9s have been inducted, RFP for more SP pieces too.


Philip, Good question. The Tampella fires 38 kg shell to 9.6 km.
The replacement is the 155mm gun-howitzer which fires a heavier shell (100 lb) and farther. The Sarang has high elevation to clear the mountain crests.


The M-66 is a 160 mm mortar manufactured by Soltam of Israel. The weapon was based on an earlier 160 mm design, the M-58 mortar by Vammas of Finland. It can fire a 38 kg (84 lb) HE bomb out to a maximum range of 9,600 m and requires a crew of 6-8 to operate.

And its shells were imported.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 15 Apr 2021 21:41

I am probably mistaken, but maybe Philip sir is referring to the advantages of the smaller logistical footprint of the 160 mm mortar?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Apr 2021 06:25

Could be but it obsolete and ammo is old and could be hazardous.
155mm howitzer does a better job ordnance and range.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 16 Apr 2021 10:50

Understood.

Also the larger number of crewmen to operate it might be a bit of a downer.

Perhaps we could look at developing a modern, auto-loader type mortar, with some limited shoot and scoot mobility. (IIRC there are some US and Korean concepts)

They will come much costlier than these older, mechanical ones for sure but they will require less crew and the portability benefits of a smaller logistical foot print (as compared to the big boy howitzers) could be useful for close-in pounding operations.
Last edited by Manish_P on 16 Apr 2021 12:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Apr 2021 11:12

Manish,those were my thoughts exactly. The Chins have further developed the Ru2B9M Vasilek mortar.This was a fully auto 82mm mortar with a rate of fire of 100+ rounds/ min. The Russians found that max. initial barrage firepower was preferable as after initial barrages, troops took cover and arty. was less efffctive. This mortar has 3 times the rate of fire of equiv. US mortars.These mortars have played devastating roles in the various ME hotspots,UKR too where rebels mounted these on pickups,etc. The Chins have further developed a variant of the W-99/SM-4 with range from 6 to 8km. It now has a 120mm barrel mounted on 6×6 SP light vehicles part of mechanised infantry batallions. The same has been sold to the Algerians.
Last edited by Philip on 16 Apr 2021 12:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 16 Apr 2021 12:19

Interesting, Philip sir. Will check it out. I think there is a 'old but useful weapons' thread (not sure, but i think it was started by Shiv ji). I guess this old mortar would be a worthy addition to that thread now :)

PS- For the chinese mortars, were you referring to the one below (or a model similar to it) by any chance?

The american concept mortar i remember seeing was installed on an even smaller 6 wheeled ATV type vehicle but there was no seating for the driver/operator (the dimension was therefore even more compact). The crew (typically 2-3) would travel in separate troop transport vehicles like Humvees. The mortar carriage vehicle movement (also the loading, aiming, firing etc) was by remote control. This carriage vehicle and it's optional ammo storage vehicle (also a similar small compact 6 wheel ATV) both could be hitched to Humvees/Trucks/IFVs and they were also air-transport capable via Chinooks and fixed wing aircrafts.

Useful for the Yanks and their invasive, expeditionary warfare doctrine but perhaps not so useful for us..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 17 Apr 2021 06:22

^^ the Finis have an interesting concept called the AMOS. such a system will be way down on our priority list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMOS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl-h3ZT9le0

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 17 Apr 2021 06:50

The AMOS is a big vehicle sir. The one I had seen was very very compact. It looked like the US Dragon Fire 2 120 mm mortar system with its 2 tow wheels removed and mounted on an open top, ultra compact remote piloted ATV (even shorter and lower than the Chinese one shown above).

I concur that it will be way down the required list. Not even sure if such a system will be needed by us based on our doctrine. As Ramana ji said, howitzers do the job for us, from safer distances. It was just a train of thought (primarily driven by the portability and cost factors)..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 23 Apr 2021 10:48

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india-tod ... 20%251%24s

Sandeep Unninathan interview with Lt. Gen Shankar. Good read. We should increase the number of guided Pinaka and get the Prahar/Pranash system up and running as soon as possible.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 23 Apr 2021 16:39

400 km mrls needs a pralay response threat. But where is it?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Apr 2021 17:58

The "Pra" series has been ready & accumulating dust for over a decade. Chinese MLRS threat known for a long time. After a lot of effort by Lt Gen Shankar, the Pinaka induction has gained momentum & prominence. He is an exception. Doctrinal laziness by the IA to not induct the rest of them in numbers

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 23 Apr 2021 18:17

Prem Kumar wrote:The "Pra" series has been ready & accumulating dust for over a decade. Chinese MLRS threat known for a long time. After a lot of effort by Lt Gen Shankar, the Pinaka induction has gained momentum & prominence. He is an exception. Doctrinal laziness by the IA to not induct the rest of them in numbers


I think the 'Pra' series are being refined. Earlier I guess IA did not show much interest in the Prahar guided rocket/short range ballistic missile that DRDO developed based in the endo-atmosphere anti-abm missile.
However, now the interest has been generated and along with a short range guided rocket upto a range of 150-250 Kms, the Pralay short range BM of 500-600 Km range is also being readied. Some YouTube channels have reported that tests of both of these systems might be carried out shortly.

The doctrinal inertia on part of the IA has been very depressing though.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Apr 2021 21:22

Before CDS and even though he was COAS, IA showed little interest in firepower.
The Chinese threat was on the back burner.
After Ladakh, there is interest in Offense-Defense tactics.
Prasad, we don't know what we don't know.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Apr 2021 21:29

Philip wrote:Manish,those were my thoughts exactly. The Chins have further developed the Ru2B9M Vasilek mortar.This was a fully auto 82mm mortar with a rate of fire of 100+ rounds/ min. The Russians found that max. initial barrage firepower was preferable as after initial barrages, troops took cover and arty. was less efffctive. This mortar has 3 times the rate of fire of equiv. US mortars.These mortars have played devastating roles in the various ME hotspots,UKR too where rebels mounted these on pickups,etc. The Chins have further developed a variant of the W-99/SM-4 with range from 6 to 8km. It now has a 120mm barrel mounted on 6×6 SP light vehicles part of mechanised infantry batallions. The same has been sold to the Algerians.



Let us look at the evolution of mortar and howitzer.
Both trace origin to bombard which uses high angle fire.
The smaller caliber led to mortar: 2 inch for the platoon, 3 inch for company, 4.2" and 120mm for battalion usage.
And variations/improvements are for transport and rate of fire. Accuracy is only now being improved with GPS fuzes.
160mm and 240 mm are rare combinations for some armies.

Howitzer similarly evolved from bombard and the French 75 mm gun/howitzer showed the modern trend during WWI.
From it, 105mm and 155mm developed.
Larger calibers were replaced with rockets and missiles as accuracy improved.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 24 Apr 2021 09:42

Ramanna,cost factor between arty,MBRL and mortar rounds.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 24 Apr 2021 10:17

All 3 are needed. For different scenarios, for different steps on the escalation ladder, sometimes even in conjunction.

Especially true for the long and varied terrains (ours and the opponents) and our multi-faceted doctrine (which is flexible for handling a short border war, a deep surgical strike, a prolonged defensive battle or be it a full blown conflict)

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 26 Apr 2021 08:37

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 12354?s=20 ---> Specs of Bharat 52 towed artillery gun.

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 04739?s=20 ---> 155mm / 52 calibre Bharat 52 towed artillery gun with automatic loading system.

Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 04 May 2021 19:01

Amazing news!

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 59904?s=20 ---> US Defense Intelligence: Indian Army units along the LoC periodically conducted artillery strikes targeting suspected militant camps and Pakistan Army positions throughout year 2020.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 07 May 2021 16:20

Any updates on the Dhanush Project? There were some reports that not a single gun was delivered in all of 2020 and maybe the production has halted.
With the tensions with China, far from being over and may even worsen in the coming days, India would need every big gun it can get.
How many Dhanush guns have been delivered to the Army so far - 24 or more?

I think the Sarang project is maybe fairing a little better and the production is ongoing.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 08 May 2021 17:20

https://indianarmy.nic.in/site/formTemplete/RFIView.aspx?MnId=j1WzoThXpVGbjoKMTE3MXw==
RFI Details
RFI Title: RFI FOR 155 MM AND 52 CALIBRE MOUNTED GUN SYSTEM
Branch Name: Arty Dte
Publish Date: 01 Apr 2021
Due Date: 09 Jun 2021

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 08 May 2021 17:57

Rakesh wrote:Amazing news!

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 59904?s=20 ---> US Defense Intelligence: Indian Army units along the LoC periodically conducted artillery strikes targeting suspected militant camps and Pakistan Army positions throughout year 2020.

Rakeshji Am I to assume all the new acquisitions were put to test at the border (Dhanush, ATAGS, et al) :D to assess the damage impact.
Given that the Paki's sued for peace along LOC should convince the Army/Baboos to order more desi stuff Na :lol:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 08 May 2021 20:49

For the Porkis even the vintage 39 Caliber Fh77B was/is adequate. What should be our concern is the situation at the LAC. We have done zilch to induct Mounted Gun Systems and the lizards have deployed them in increased numbers this year too (and they have also supplied these to the Porkis). The inadequate numbers of 155 MM ULH also is a concern. Our continued stop gap measure approach to the challenges we face is going to bite us big time.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 May 2021 22:56

Which system has the 48km,longest range? The Dhanush?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 12 May 2021 23:26


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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 12 May 2021 23:48

Vips wrote:For the Porkis even the vintage 39 Caliber Fh77B was/is adequate. What should be our concern is the situation at the LAC. We have done zilch to induct Mounted Gun Systems and the lizards have deployed them in increased numbers this year too (and they have also supplied these to the Porkis). The inadequate numbers of 155 MM ULH also is a concern. Our continued stop gap measure approach to the challenges we face is going to bite us big time.


Vips
If you read Indian history it is full of examples where the Indian side did not have artilary or if they did it was not adequate:
First Battle of Panipat: Fought between the invading forces of Babur and the Lodi dynasty.
English / French verses many Indian Kings/states
Marathas had artillery but not sufficient

Wonder if the lessons of the past will ever be learent


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