Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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srai
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby srai » 25 Apr 2021 02:29

chetak wrote:...

HAL shafted the IN by not delivering as promised and compounded the problem by suggesting various silly methods to overcome the blade fold problem including the stupendous and technically stunning idea of cutting holes in the bulkheads of the IN ships but never seriously worked on a solution. This is just one example.

...


FWIR, that idea was suggested by a visiting politician dignitary not HAL.

In any case, new counterpoint articles on Livefist from HAL test pilots have suggested Mk.3 variant has been the main focus and is the new baseline to be trialed upon. Two different folding mechanisms are under development and have been demo’ed to the IN.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 27 Apr 2021 18:08

The KRI Nangalla tragedy highlights the risk of operating
old subs,a lesson for the IN too which has also had in the past its share of accidents mostly due to poor maintenance.
We too have 4 U-209 U-boats of 1980s vintage,being upgraded again,but like out Kilos second refits which cannot last more than a another decade.The foll. article also has some good advice about overloading a sub with too much capability- OZ is ruing it now, and the IN too has overambitious reqs. for the P-75I ,capabilities best suited to SSNs/ SSGNs. What we need are v.quiet conv./AIP subs with the primary task of ASW and anti-ship warfare for the IOR littorals. And in large numbers,an affordable type. We acquired our Kilos at v.affordable costs and in large number too. Our Scorpenes have not followed that example being both expensive and delayed and compromised on operating performance data through leaks. With our dwindling sub numbers, inadequate to face the future PLAN sub tsunami into the IOR, the IN and GOI need to brainstorm and review the entire sub acquisition programmes so that we have a large number of capable and affordable subs in the future.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighoope ... 6768053288

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2021 21:51

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... 24710?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy is expected to get delivery of 45,000-tonne indigenous INS Vikrant aircraft carrier and 7,500-tonne Visakhapatnam class stealth guided missile destroyer by end-2021.

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... 72320?s=20 ---> IAC-1 and INS Visakhapatnam will be formally commissioned into the Navy next year.,Contractual clauses come alive once the warship is handed over to Indian Navy but commissioning takes times as the vessel is to be tested by the Naval personnel for its capability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Rakesh » 28 Apr 2021 19:01

https://twitter.com/ApurbaS47553024/sta ... 39555?s=20 ---> Visakhapatnam Class Destroyer ( P15 Bravo). The successor of Kolkata Class Destroyer (P15 Alpha).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby maz » 01 May 2021 00:32

Some version of a ISR and weapon capable VTOL drone is a must to mitigate blade folding issues with helos like the Dhruv. Regardless of the problems faced with the Chetak/ NRUAV many years ago, the control system issues have been resolved. One wonders why the IN does not see fit to revive the Chetak/ NRUAV plan with contemporary flight control systems. Considering that there are nominally about 51 'old' + 8 new build CTKs in service, this move would readily provide the IN with 2-3 dozen older airframes to serve as weaponized drones that could do both ISR and 'MATCH' roles albeit without the 'Manned' bit . The added cost would be for the control systems on the helos and the ships.

Instead, the IN is looking for a smaller and/ or imported RUAV. Makes no sense whatsoever!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby NRao » 01 May 2021 03:38

PDF

India – P-8I and Associated Support

WASHINGTON, April 30, 2021 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible
Foreign Military Sale to the Government of India of six (6) P-8I Patrol aircraft and related equipment for an
estimated cost of $2.42 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification
notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

..........................

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 01 May 2021 12:07

"The future is unmanned",US statement,both for its air force and navy. Given the size of hangars aboard our main surface combatants,plus high cost of new imported one-for-one replacements,a fast-track acquisition of UCAVs operating from naval platforms must be initiated including CVs. For new surface warship designs, adding a below-deck hangar as has been featured in Sov. era and new RuN corvette designs for the future, could offer the addition of a UCAV+ in addition to a classic ASW/ multi-role helo platform. The US has just demonstrated an MQ drone dropping sonobuuoys,adding to the capabilities of its long-endurance UCAVs.

The extra P-8Is come at a huge cost of over $400M a pop. The IN wanted more ,ideally an inventory figure of 20+ but costs were prohibitive.The IN should therefore also acquire on the cheap a few extra upgraded IL-38 platforms- we have 5 IL-38SDs,one of which launched an ASM recently ,lots mothballed and available on the cheap, which can accommodate considerable desi and other similar eqpt. aboard the P-8s for max. commonality.A few more will allow around 6 to 8 to always be available in a crisis. The type can soldier on for another 2 decades. This will augment the " slow and low" req. for ASW warfare as P-8s fly higher and their ASW torpedoes require special wing kits for launch. It will also avoid getting a 3rd. MP type adding to extra logistic support for a new type.

The proposal to also develop an amphib. version of the DO-228 is long overdue. It is astonishing that a country like ours with such a vsst coastline,island territories,lakes and backwaters, has just a couple or so amphibs NONE with the IN or CG! Even a tiny nation like the Maldives have dozens of seaplanes most used as taxis for tourism.DO-228/328 amphibs would serve communications,SAR and logistic duties well.The Japanese US-2 is way too expensive and comes unarmed. Adding sensors and ASW weaponry to them would further increase the costs.P-8 Is are far more cost effective ,probably why the 6 extra,8 would've been better, are being preferred augmenting the P-8I inventory. Also helpful would be acquiring a limited qty. of BE-200s extensively used even in the west for combating forest fires which rage in across the country every year,apart from ASW combat duties. Our MI-17 helos with canvas buckets being used to combat huge fires are hopelessly inadequate for the purpose.

The IN actually operated 10 Short Sealand amphibs in 1952,even operating from the BLR lake adjacent to the HAL airport. The time has come when this capability must be restored asap in view of the challenge posed by the PLAN's massive expansion and intrusions into the IOR. In our island territories like the ANC and Lakshadweep,they would be invaluable.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby A Deshmukh » 01 May 2021 13:36

Future Aircraft Carriers would actually be UCAV carriers.
which means - smaller size (current IAC size or even less) should be okay to carry a lot more UCAVs.
Hiding smaller UCAV carrier would be easier than larger ones.
they should be built in numbers and provide distributed launchpads.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby arvin » 01 May 2021 13:51

Philip wrote:The proposal to also develop an amphib. version of the DO-228 is long overdue. It is astonishing that a country like ours with such a vsst coastline,island territories,lakes and backwaters, has just a couple or so amphibs NONE with the IN or CG! Even a tiny nation like the Maldives have dozens of seaplanes most used as taxis for tourism.DO-228/328 amphibs would serve communications,SAR and logistic duties well.The Japanese US-2 is way too expensive and comes unarmed.


Another quickest way to get an amphib is Saras mk2. It is going through an complete re-design with high mounted wing and tractor props.
Hope the redesign include provisions to add floats to make it water landing capable. Hope we dont miss this boat literally.
CSIR-NAL is focussing on just fulfilling the UDAAN requirements. A lot more Saras can be sold if its made water capable.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Rakesh » 04 May 2021 18:56

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 62400?s=20 ---> An aerial photo of two diesel electric submarines: INS Kalvari (S21) & INS Khanderi (S22) at the Mumbai port. INS Kalvari's torpedo loading bay, ahead of the tower/sail, is open. Both the submarines operate out of that port and visit frequently for fuel, weapons & supplies.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Rakesh » 04 May 2021 18:58

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 87200?s=20 ---> NSTL developed Infra Red Suppression System (IRSS) to cool the exhaust ducts & the exhaust plume of naval vessels. It suppresses IR radiation signature to better conceal ships from IR sensors/seekers. GRSE has taken over manufacturing of the IRSS. 56 copies have been made so far.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby SSridhar » 08 May 2021 11:58

Fire on board INS Vikramaditya, all personnel safe: Navy
There was a minor fire on board India's aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on Saturday morning, a Navy spokesperson said.

The fire was doused and all personnel on board are safe, the spokesperson said in a statement here.

"The duty staff observed smoke emanating from the part of the warship having accommodation for sailors.

"The ship's duty personnel acted promptly to fight the fire. All personnel on board have been accounted for and no major damage has been reported," the statement said.

An inquiry into the incident is being ordered, he said, adding the aircraft carrier is in Karnataka's Karwar harbour.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 09 May 2021 22:57

How minor? Fortunate that the carrier was in harbour.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 12 May 2021 20:14

https://eurasiantimes.com/indian-navys- ... r-reports/

Xcpt:
Indian Navy’s New ALH Mk-III Helicopters Ready For Anti-Submarine Warfare With Indigenous Technology – Reports
By
Ayush Jain
May 11, 2021
Some of the Indian Navy’s advanced light helicopters (ALH) Mk-III will be equipped with an indigenous low-frequency dunking sonar, capable of conducting anti-submarine warfare, reports suggest.

The ALH Mk-III choppers that were handed over to the Navy and the Coast Guard last month are the latest variant of the highly successful ALH Dhruv helicopter outfitted with modern sensors.

The list of features the helicopter’s maker HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) is offering in the ALH Mk-III is exhaustive.

With the local development and production, the integration of sensors and equipment has become easier for the Indian defense industry – including the IFF MKXII & ATC Xpdr with ADS-B Out, V/UHF communication system, traffic alert and collision avoidance (TCAS-I), SAR Homer system and automatic deployable emergency locator transmitter (ADELT).

A Loud hailer, radio altimeter, rescue basket, medical intensive care unit (MICU), IADS system, AFCS, digital video recording system (SSDVR), automatic identification system (AIS), high-intensity searchlight (HISL), pressure refueling system, control grip, EO POD Rev III, surveillance radar system and 12.7 mm gun system, and a lot more are also being provided for the Indian Navy, making this platform a truly versatile utility helicopter.

And according to reports, 6 out of 16 helicopters ordered by the service are also getting more teeth with the addition of a Low-Frequency Dunking Sonar (LFDS), aiding in anti-submarine warfare abilities.

This LFDS is developed by the Kochi-based Naval Physical & Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), and can be deployed by rotary-wing platforms especially the ALH Mk-III, acting as a force multiplier for surface vessels. It provides the advantages of lower frequency combined with higher source level for range advantage in littoral ASW.

It enables the deployment of sensors to deeper depths for the detection of submarines. LFDS is an integrated system using indigenous technology capable of simultaneously processing inputs from sonobuoys and operating the dunking sonar for establishing exact range and bearing values with active low-frequency transmission, according to NavyRecognition.

Interestingly, in other photos, the helicopter is also seen armed with torpedoes, however, not much information available is available on the prototype.

It is still unclear if the Naval Dhruv Mk III can carry munitions or not, but is certainly an idea too lucrative for the Indian industry to ignore and if the photos are true, testings are already underway.

The Indian Navy has been looking for a new utility helicopter to replace its Sea King fleet, for which the service placed an order for 24 MH-60R helicopters from the United States built by Lockheed Martin.

According to an Indian news website LiveMint, this acquisition of two dozen MH-60R maritime utility helicopters come under a $2.6 billion deal inked in February last year. The first three out of 24 MH-60R Seahawks are expected to be delivered between June and September 2021.

The Indian helicopter had faced several roadblocks in its acceptance, especially due to issues like complications in the blade folding mechanism. The Indian Navy also operates Russian Made Kamov Ka-28 and Ka-31 helicopters for anti-submarine warfare.



The problems earlier,whether resolved to the IN's satisfaction now, was mainly the rotor folding mechanism,which should be auto and easy to stow in the hangar given the nature of operating a helo on the high seas.I said earlier that long ago we should've got help for the rotor problem,just as we got help from BAe for the spin problem on the IJT. We have so many JVs with foreign OEMs,a lot of time could've been saved for this aspect,esp. when the engines for the ALH are French,not desi.

Nevertheless,a perfected ASW variant of the ALH could be another winner for HAL and solve the IN's quest for a utility helo to replace the Chetaks. .The sensors-dunking sonar,sonobuoys,surv. radar,etc. plus LWTs,even ASMs, could make the ASW Dhruv a very attractive export offer.There are hundreds of the basic type flying now for confidence in any firang buyer.Keeping the price attractive is the task as there are several old established players in the ASW helo field around.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby sankum » 12 May 2021 22:17

16 to 24 more ASW Dhruv will have to be added to present 6 nos to meet the immediate requirement of ASW Helos till 66 nos ASW version of NMRH are acquired.

IN will acquire more naval Dhruvs but numbers have to be still decided.

By 2025 more than 60 ASW helos will be required.

24 MH60R+10 Kamov 28 upgraded+ 30 ASW Naval DHRUVS = 64 ASW helos will be ideal complement.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 17 May 2021 18:24

Dated,but v.good review of the LRMP tasks and capability of the IN,giving the details about the various aircraft then in service other than the P--8Is,but detais about the P-8I too.

https://idsa.in/system/files/jds_7_1_RikeeshSharma.pdf

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby arshyam » 21 May 2021 10:25

First destroyer of Indian Navy to be decommissioned today - By Mayank Singh, TNIE

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NEW DELHI: The glorious era of Indian Navy’s first destroyer will come to an end with the decommissioning INS Rajput on Friday. It served the nation for 41 years.

Commander Vivek Madhwal, Spokesperson Indian Navy told, “The solemn decommissioning ceremony will be held at Naval Dockyard, Visakhapatnam. Owing to the ongoing COVID pandemic, the ceremony will be a low-key event attended only by in-station officers and sailors with strict observance of COVID protocols.”

INS Rajput, with the motto “Raj Karega Rajput”, was the lead ship of the Kashin-class destroyers built by the erstwhile USSR was commissioned on 04 May 1980 and participated in some of the most important operations and served in both Western and Eastern Fleets of the Indian Navy.

“The Ship was part of Operation Aman off Sri Lanka to assist Indian Peace Keeping Force, Operation Pawan for patrolling duties off the coast of Sri Lanka, Operation Cactus to resolve hostage situation off the Maldives, and Operation Crowsnest off Lakshadweep.” told Madhwal.

The ship also participated in numerous bilateral and multi-national exercises. The ship was also the first Indian Naval Ship to be affiliated with an Indian Army regiment – the Rajput Regiment.

The keel of the ship was laid on 11 Sep 1976 and she was launched on 17 Sep 1977. The ship was commissioned as INS Rajput on 04 May 1980 at Poti, Georgia by His Excellency Shri IK Gujral, the Ambassador of India to USSR with Capt Gulab Mohanlal Hiranandani as her first Commanding Officer. INS Rajput was constructed in the 61 Communards Shipyard in Nikolaev (present-day Ukraine) under her original Russian name ‘Nadezhny’ meaning ‘Hope’.

In her glorious 41 years, the ship had 31 Commanding Officers at her helm with the last CO taking charge of the ship on 14 Aug 2019.

The poignant ceremony will take place as the sun sets on 21 May 21, the Naval Ensign and the Commissioning Pennant will be hauled down for the last time onboard INS Rajput, symbolising the decommissioning, Madhwal said.


End of an era...I hope the name is revived for the next round of destroyers after P-15B (P-16?).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby arshyam » 21 May 2021 10:28

x-post from the Chinese virus thread

arshyam wrote:Indian Navy Designs Oxygen Recycling System To Prolong Life Of Oxygen Cylinder By Up To Four Times - Swarajya

Amid the second wave of Covid-19, the Diving School of the Southern Naval Command of the Indian Navy has conceptualized and designed an 'Oxygen Recycling System' (ORS) to alleviate the existing Oxygen (O2) shortages.

The Diving School has expertise in this area as the basic concept is used in some of the diving sets used by the school.

The ORS is designed to extend the life of the existing medical O2 cylinders two to four times, using the fact that only a small percentage of O2 inhaled by a patient is actually absorbed by the lungs, the rest being exhaled into the atmosphere along with carbon-dioxide (CO2) produced by the body. This exhaled O2 can be reused, provided the exhaled CO2 is removed.

To achieve this, the ORS adds a second pipe to the patient’s existing O2 mask, which sucks out the air exhaled by a patient using a low-pressure motor. Both the mask inlet pipe (for O2) and the mask outlet pipe (for exhaled air) are fitted with non-return valves to maintain a positive pressure and unidirectional flow of gases at all times to ensure the patient's safety against dilution hypoxia.

The exhaled gases, mainly CO2 carbon dioxide and O2, are then fed into a Bacterial Viral Filter and Heat and Moisture Exchanger Filter (BVF-HME filter) to absorb any viral contaminants.

After viral filtration, the gases pass through a high-grade CO2 scrubber with a High Efficiency Particulate Air (HEPA) filter, which absorbs CO2 and other particulates, allowing enriched O2 to pass through unaffected.

The enriched O2 from the scrubber is then pumped back into the inhalation pipe of the patient’s face mask, thereby increasing the flow rate of O2 to the patient, and reducing the use of O2 from the cylinder.

Digital flow meters monitor the flow rate of O2, and the ORS also incorporates inline O2 and CO2 sensors with automatic cut-offs, which stop the ORS in case O2 levels drop below the normal limits, or the CO2 percentage exceeds normal limits.

However, this cut-off does not affect the normal in-flow of O2 from the cylinder, thereby allowing the patient to continue breathing easily, even if the ORS stops due to the cut-offs or for any other reason.

The first fully operational prototype of the ORS designed by Lieutenant Commander Mayank Sharma was produced on 22 Apr 21 and underwent a series of in-house trials and design improvements at the Southern Naval Command, with third-party observers from ISO certified firms.

“The system is now being progressed for clinical trials in accordance with existing guidelines, which are expected to be completed expeditiously, after which the design will be freely available for mass production in the country. All components used in the ORS are indigenous and freely available in the country,” the Ministry of Defence said in a statement.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby mody » 21 May 2021 15:20

arshyam wrote:First destroyer of Indian Navy to be decommissioned today - By Mayank Singh, TNIE


End of an era...I hope the name is revived for the next round of destroyers after P-15B (P-16?).


P16 are the Bramhaputra class Frigates. The next heavy missile destroyers will most likely be P18.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby mody » 21 May 2021 15:54

Over the next 5 years, can we replace the MF-STAR radar and LRSAM with NG-AKASH missiles and an indigenous AESA radar? I suppose it should be possible.
We should plan for a follow on order for additional 5 nos of P17A frigates, perhaps P17B, albeit with much greater indigenous content. I would hope for the following:

Raw material to be sourced from India as it already is being done. For the weapons and sensor suite:

1). 76mm SRGM from BHEL. BHEL has upgraded the basic variant and it now has a longer range. The BAE 127mm Mk-45 gun is just too expensive.
2). Brahmos, in 8 VLS tubes.
3). Nirbhay or LRLACM, 8 missiles. The VLS tubes misght even be able to accommodate Brahmos-NG missiles, if the mission calls for a greater anti-ship role.
4). RBU-6000, produced under license
5). NG-AKASH VLS, 32 missiles
6). VL-SRSAM, 16-32 missiles
7). Indian replacement for MF-STAR, would be used by both the NG-AKASH and VL_SRSAM
8). Two AK-630 mounts, manufactured under license, with indigenous fire control radar
9). Varunastra torpedoes, two tubes each for port and starboard side.
10). HUMSA-NG sonar suite
11). ALTAS indigenous towed active array sonar (hopefully would be ready by then)
12). 1 Helicopter, can be the ALH-MKIII-Naval to be begin with, to be replaced by indigenous N-IMRH, when ready
13). EW suite, BEL Ajanta or follow on of the same, plus Kavach/Mareech decoy systems

Propulsion, same as the P-17A frigates, suitable diesel engine either the existing one from MAN or any other suitable alternative, along with 2 GE-LM2500 turbines. All are manufactured in India.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 22 May 2021 18:10

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Last edited by Philip on 22 May 2021 20:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 22 May 2021 20:40

Not the first DDs.in IN service, but the first Kashin-IIs to be decommd.. The first Rajput and R destroyer sqd.were WW2 era Hunt class (?) DDs.V.fast,I think they could do 38+ kts. A late relative was the CO of the Rajput and destroyer sqd. Set up the ASW school at Cochin too. Had a great kick at a veterans meet some years ago handling a Talwar class FFG.

The Rajputs were a great leap in capability when they first arrived.differed from Sov. Kashins in that the Styx missiles faced forward.Sov. tactics were for the DDG after detecting and targeting a US carrier, to turn around firing its missiles as it departed at high speed. The other change was the addition of a flight deck and below-deck helo hangar for a KA-28 ASW helo.
Further upgrades by the IN were an 8-cell BMos module replacing the aft SAM system ,some R-class DDGs even had 2 twin-cell BMoslaunchers replacing 2 Styx launchers in addition to the aft VLS module. Better radars,etc. replaced the main search radar.

With only 4 left, and a v.slow pace of new construction, the IN must review its fleet options, adding a new class of heavily atmed multi-role corvettes in large number,which can be built quickly to plug gaps ( as capital ships are taking upto 7 yrs. to build by the DPSU dockyards) to supplement our DDGs and FFGs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 22 May 2021 22:21

mody wrote:Over the next 5 years, can we replace the MF-STAR radar and LRSAM with NG-AKASH missiles and an indigenous AESA radar? I suppose it should be possible.

That would be little use Barak-8 offers better range and adapting NG-Akash for vertical launch will be time consuming and not to mention you now need to develop new set of vertical launchers for it. Best bet is to focus on SR-SAM and get inducted ASAP as it is needed for P-28 and slew of other vessels. Then perhaps xr-Sam can replace Barak-8.

the IN must review its fleet options, adding a new class of heavily atmed multi-role corvettes in large number,which can be built quickly


No why do we need to introduce a new class you need to speed up production of existing vessels using modular construction not add unnecessary new class. I know you suggesting this idea because mother Russia has it but heavy corvette is last thing we need. 20385 costs as much as grigorovich and has half its deplacement and poor range. Why would want to emulate that?

Focus on getting 7 P-17 done by 2025 and order another 7 to be completed by 2030. That along with another batch of Talwar will address lot of gaps. For DDG work on new designed based on P-17 (stretched P-17) and get those induced by 2035.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 23 May 2021 14:06

The P-28s are larger than our erstwhile Leander FFs, cost a bomb too,take ages to build and have a poor weapons package..The PLAN have over 70 new multi-role corvettes used as workhorses.Our capital ships,P-15+s,P-17+s, also take aeons to build and are expensive too. Corvettes worldwide are becoming the surface combatant of choice,as they're small,carry a powerful weapons package and are much cheaper and faster to build too.

A beginning of sorts towards a new thinking, was the decision to build 16 shallow-water ( inshore) ASW corvettes,8 by CSL and 8 by GRSE. These however are around only 750t, have a specialised task, while the P-28s are close to 3,000t. There is a need for a corvette to fill this gap which will add to numbers reqd. given our increasing IOR responsibilities with base facilities in Agalega ( Isle Maurice), Duqm ( Oman), the ANC/ LDW, etc. Our OPVs of 2,000t have v.little armament ,best suited for constabulary duties.

Small 1000t corvettes like the Buyan class carry 8 2,500 km Kalibir land attack missiles,spectacularly successful in the Syrian conflict.A multi-role corvette of 1500+t built in large number in modular manner by the pvt. sector too, will fill a vital gap in the fleet, preserving the larger surface combatants for more serious crises. Our Khukri/ Kora corvettes of around 1000+t which have shown the flag in various countries in the IOR,ASEAN,Far East, etc., have no ASW capability at all and limited anti- air/missile defences too. One P-17/ Talwar can be in only one area of operations at a time, wheras 3 to 4 corvettes for the same cost can be deployed in multiple hotspots.

The biggest threat wiill be for the IN PLAN subs,they have around 80 now,plus about 12 PN subs, a possible total of 24 operating in the IOR on a permanent basis given the Chin mil. bases at Gwadar,Djibouti,Sri Lanka anf poss. on the E.African coast and Burma too. I explained earlier how difficult it is to prosecute a sub,the no. of assets reqd. In the Falklands war, the RN's entire fleet including N-subs were unable to find the Argie San Luis, a U-209 boat, which made sev. unsuccessful torpedo attacks against the RN's carriers due to torpedo malfunction. Not too long ago, it took the IN 21 days to find one Paki Agosta 90B which moved west towards Gwadar to keep it out of harms way,the IN fleet.

Churchill said that in WW2,what worried him most was the Battle of the Atlantic,not the Battle of Britain, as the crucial lifeline of war material,etc. by sea to beleagured Britan kept it going. Therefore,the greater no. of surface assets the IN possess capable of multi-role ops, assisted by air and sub-surface assets, the greater will the IN be able to meet the main threat to it in the coming years, PLAN and PN subs.

PS: A huge controversy has just broken out in SL where a official multi-lingua plaque replaced Tamil with Mandarin,leading to outrage from Tamil MPs and allegations that SL was now controlled by the PRC.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 23 May 2021 22:05

Philip you are talking about multiple things:

First you talked heavily armed multi role corvette which is essentially 20386 which is almost 3500 tons and costs much much more than Talwar and russians have been building it for close to 7 years (so much for mass manufacturing). Also there is no such thing as 1500 ton or even 2500 ton multi purpose corvette, Russians had to move away from 2500 ton 20385 class corvette (Gremyashchiy) to 3000+ ton 20386 for this reason. Which IMO is a Frigate.

Second you moved onto AshW corvette like Buyan we already have that in NGMV, Buyan is impractical for us because it is designed to operate in Caspian Sea and lob missiles. It simply will be useless given its slower than most surface combatants (compare that with 40 knots of Tarantul or NGMV). Get some private sy involved in NGMV and focus on inducting around 20 IMO.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 24 May 2021 10:07

The Khukri/Koras are just 1000+t,our erstwhile Petya class FFLs were only 1150t,had 4 X76mm main guns in 2 turrets,4 MBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers,3X1 533mm TTs, 5000km range and sailed all over the world. There is no need for a 3000t+ FFG unlike the RuN, which is building more Gorshkov class FFGs instead of larger DDGs,shelving the much larger Lider class. The RuN after the Buyan Kalibir strikes,found that smaller vessels equipped with Kalibir and now Tsirkon hyper- SSMs ( Gorky FFG to conduct Tsirkon missile launches again from June) can be equally effective,cost less and can be built in larger number. The USN is also examining the same philosophy in considering designs to replace the Arleigh Burkes.

The Israelis operate similar sized SAAR corvettes and the Buyan-M corvettes were sent to the Meditt. a couple of years ago to reinforce the RuN Syrian flotilla . This proves my point as if it were neccessary at all when our Khukri/ Koras ( which have a heli-deck but no hangar, have been all over IOR, Gulf, ASEAN and Far East waters. A 1500-2000t corvette ( 1.5 to 2.0 times the size of a Kora) could additionally operate an ASW helo,ideally in a hangar below deck,plus a 76mm gun, 8 BMos/ Klub SSMs,1 MBU-6000,forward with a 16 module anti-missile SR/MR SAM ,30mm gatlings plus 2X2 533mm TTS/ 2X3 LWTs,or 2X4 Paket ASW /hard-kill torpedo systems aft.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Pratyush » 24 May 2021 15:38

The smallest ship for ocean going application has to be a frigate in the Indian context.

Just because the Russians don't have the resources to build anything larger than corvette in significant numbers doesn't mean that India must follow the same path.

Now we need to fix our shipbuilding. We cannot continue to function in the current way. You cannot have hulls in the water within 2.5 years of keel laying and then waiting for radar and Sonar and CIC equipment for 5 to 6 years.

With current nature of equipment. A fully completed ship can be launched from the slipway. With modular construction methods being followed. All modules can be fitted when on land it self.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Maria » 24 May 2021 17:28

^ Hi All, pranam Admiral Fillipov. I am 400% in agreement with the fact that we need to change our culture for shipbuilding. However, I also believe that the lead time would decrease as more and more equipment is indigenized.

Okay we messed up with essential equipment such as sonars, radars and SAMs the 1st time. Do we have a system in place to ensure that we don't repeat these mistakes? I know the mighty Indian Navy is full of quick and agile learners who will plan better for the future classes.

Also, as a newbie pooch - I recently read that the HMS Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers were constructed with modules from 6 different shipyards, do we follow something similar to speed up the work on our ships? If no, are we planning to do it for future classes such as the P28A or P18?

The Chinese also do it - but how? Surely, it can't be just their manpower!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby YashG » 24 May 2021 17:34

Pratyush wrote:The smallest ship for ocean going application has to be a frigate in the Indian context.

Just because the Russians don't have the resources to build anything larger than corvette in significant numbers doesn't mean that India must follow the same path.

Now we need to fix our shipbuilding. We cannot continue to function in the current way. You cannot have hulls in the water within 2.5 years of keel laying and then waiting for radar and Sonar and CIC equipment for 5 to 6 years.

With current nature of equipment. A fully completed ship can be launched from the slipway. With modular construction methods being followed. All modules can be fitted when on land it self.


^101

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 24 May 2021 19:06

Philip wrote:A 1500-2000t corvette ( 1.5 to 2.0 times the size of a Kora) could additionally operate an ASW helo,ideally in a hangar below deck,plus a 76mm gun, 8 BMos/ Klub SSMs,1 MBU-6000,forward with a 16 module anti-missile SR/MR SAM ,30mm gatlings plus 2X2 533mm TTS/ 2X3 LWTs,or 2X4 Paket ASW /hard-kill torpedo systems aft.

Philip there is no such platform that offers that even the scaled down Talwar (no shtil and only point defense SAM by hanger) that is similar armament to what you listed is 3000 Ton frigate. If you engage in realm of fantasy there is really no point in discussion, may be you can resurrect build your own ship thread and post about 1000 ton vessel fitted with 64 hypersonic Russian missiles that can be mass built cheap.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Pratyush » 24 May 2021 20:44

What Philip is asking for is a 2200 ton corvette being built for the Russian Navy. It has IIRC, an 8 cell VLS and a chopper hanger. Total missile count of 16 missiles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian ... emyashchiy

Without having any understanding of the limitations of the Russian Navy and the reason why they are building such ships in numbers.

Indian Navy has no such limitations. We have a different issue. Hell we are not even building P28 class in numbers. Nor are we planning to use the hull form for any derivative ship class.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby titash » 24 May 2021 22:27

Pratyush wrote:What Philip is asking for is a 2200 ton corvette being built for the Russian Navy. It has IIRC, an 8 cell VLS and a chopper hanger. Total missile count of 16 missiles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian ... emyashchiy

Without having any understanding of the limitations of the Russian Navy and the reason why they are building such ships in numbers.

Indian Navy has no such limitations. We have a different issue. Hell we are not even building P28 class in numbers. Nor are we planning to use the hull form for any derivative ship class.


Does anyone here know why the IN is not backing larger production runs of the P28 class?

Is it because they haven’t proven effective at their designated role? Or they haven’t proven themselves due to the lack of ATAS and SeaHawks? Or their chosen mission no longer exists? Or their chosen mission actually requires a much larger platform?

They are largely indigenous; once the SR-SAM VLS finishes flight testing, the ALTAS comes online, and the SeaHawks are delivered, they will be very useful boats and will only fall short in carrying the SMART ASROC like weapon (although they may lose their RBUs during the mid life upgrade and carry 8 SMART weapons instead)

Perhaps they haven’t reached their potential yet and haven’t been properly evaluated to make that judgement call

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 24 May 2021 23:18

Pratyush wrote:What Philip is asking for is a 2200 ton corvette being built for the Russian Navy. It has IIRC, an 8 cell VLS and a chopper hanger. Total missile count of 16 missiles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian ... emyashchiy

Without having any understanding of the limitations of the Russian Navy and the reason why they are building such ships in numbers.

Indian Navy has no such limitations. We have a different issue. Hell we are not even building P28 class in numbers. Nor are we planning to use the hull form for any derivative ship class.

Philip is actually not talking about 20385 aka Gremyashchiy ckass i asked that and he kept reiterating 1500 ton multi purpose corvette which this is certainly is not. It is in upwards of 2500 tons, no sonar suite or ASW mortars/rocket and costs as much grigorovich class. The high costs given its drawback (more on that) let Russia to move to 20386 corvette (which is Frigate IMO given its 3000 Ton displacement).

Russia decided to move to building smaller displacement vessels as opposed Frigates and Destroyers to make up their # shortfall gas older Destroyers and Cruisers are starting to be decommissioned. Given their limited budget they had no other choice. But they found out that these are starting to cost as much as large surface combatants and have plenty of limitations.

For example Gremyashchiy class costs as much as Grigorovich class and takes longer to build (whopping 8 years), less range & speed and limitations to its radar suite due to stability concerns.

titash wrote:Does anyone here know why the IN is not backing larger production runs of the P28 class?
l

We learned the same thing the Russia learned the heard way when you pack corvette sized vessel with all the gizmos and tech you end up with corvette sized vessel that costs as much as FFG, takes just as long to built but with all the limitations of the smaller displacement. P-28 high cost made them less attractive to induct in large nos modified for other purpose such as AShW or multi purpose.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Pratyush » 24 May 2021 23:47

That's quite interesting. So, what, he is asking for is essentially a light frigate. But is called a corvette by the Russians.

In that case. I will take a modified p 28 class ship with a scaled down MFSTAR and a 32 cell VLS.

PS I was not paying any attention to this particular class of corvette. As I don't pay any attention to any Russian ship class unless it actually enters service.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 25 May 2021 01:33

Pratyush wrote:That's quite interesting. So, what, he is asking for is essentially a light frigate. But is called a corvette by the Russians.

In that case. I will take a modified p 28 class ship with a scaled down MFSTAR and a 32 cell VLS.

PS I was not paying any attention to this particular class of corvette. As I don't pay any attention to any Russian ship class unless it actually enters service.

When you start throwing features like MF STAR the price starts escalating. To be honest is what we lacking is something like Chinese 054 FFG which are cheap and easy to manufacture in large nos, I think our license production of Talwar class by Goa SY is attempt to address that. Fitted with likely a cheaper 3D radar and SR-SAM. If we can build them for around 400-500 million as opposed to bill+ cost of P-17A it could help address that gap.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Pratyush » 25 May 2021 01:43

I am not particular about MFSTAR in the current form.

What I am seeking would be considerably scaled down from its current form. It could be what you are suggesting as well.

So that it can be fitted on smaller hulls. Giving them a reasonable air defence capacity in order to survive in regions where they would be operating unsupported.

In other regions they would be part of larger task forces. So individual radar suite capacity would not really matter.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 25 May 2021 05:14

Pratyush wrote:I am not particular about MFSTAR in the current form.

MF-STAR is needed for Barak-8 (nothing conclusive to stay it has been integrated with any other naval radars incl El/M-2238) though they are smaller MF STAR variants designed for integration with even 1000 Ton vessels it won’t be necessarily if we are not going with Barak-8.

If we utilize just SR-SAM for air defense purpose, we can use Revathi (P-28 with SR SAM will use Revathi) or another domestic radar option.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby hnair » 25 May 2021 21:05

Philip, you are bringing in military tech solutions of 70s (Tu22M), 80s (picket corvettes with heavy AShM loadouts) and 90s (subsonic lACM fired from ships). Unfortunately lots of posts that debunk your thinking has not made any impact.

I am not even going into the expensive and flawed Tu22M, but the other two is also not applicable to India

Corvette class with heavy AshM loadout: During the 70s till 2000s, India's second greatest naval challenge during a war was a paki naval raider sneaking in and unleashing AShM at either docked ships or at some facility, like what we did to them at Karachi 71. India invested in shore missile batteries for Mumbai as a last ditch deterrent and in a more mobile, "at sea missile battery" in the form of the corvettes. Its primary challenge remained ASW and hence the two heavy ASW helicopter loadouts in even modest sized frigates until recently.

The primary challenge remains, but there are better and even more flexible aerial platforms that can rapidly reach stand off range of ALL the PN assets, after being spotted by multiple sensors of a well-integrated ocean surveillance network that the IN has been meticulously working on. So the mission for such a brown-water corvette with inexpensive sensors and that can be acquired cheaply does not exist. As posters above pointed out, the only option is a heavier and costly vessel with full multi-mission capabilities, which will be a pain on budgets during peace times. Hence the experiments with ocean going, but lightly armed NOPVs. But PLAN's rapid expansion means just that thread alone is not enough and you need heavier armed vessels.

Salvos of subsonic LACMs fired from sea: Much as you claim the Buyan classes firing Kalibr from the Caspian is some kind of recent Russian brilliance, it was a SOP of USN since the first gulf war, which the Russians seem to have adopted. The USN has done this LACM salvo in atleast four occasions (DS-1, Sudan/Afg, WOT and DS-2) before the russians did. US use these whenever they dont want to risk flying US pilots over sovereign airspace of neutrals or hostiles. Same as Russia did over Iran from the Caspian. They are costly compared to aerial bombing and works only against lightly or incompetently defended military and the bush-war militia backed governments. It did not get used by USN in more recent actions because they have better ways to penetrate a lightly defended airspace and an even cheaper option in the form of UAVs in zero-contested space. And since it is LACM, what is the point of IN having a subsonic LACM with long range that is loaded on to some light vessels with questionable ocean-going capability, lacking sensors that can provide targeting solutiosn and meager self-defense capability? if the nearest chinese targets are still beyond the range of LACMs in the decently defensible Bay of Bengal, why would you send a corvette carrying them into harms way in say, SCS?

If it is anti-ship mission, then it makes even less sense, since these subsonic LACMs are not going to survive PLAN larger ship's anti-missile capabilities. If it is smaller ships and logistics chain of PLAN that needs targeting, then the new DRDO light AShM (NASM-SR, the Penguin equivalent) carried by helicopters or MP plane/UAV would do the trick cheaply and flexibly

Summary: Unless it is 70s nostalgia (like a certain professor and his re-engined Canberra), there is no point in going down the route of light corvettes. India need a lot of ocean-going hulls that can be churned out faster than current rate and heavy SSK/SSNs. Not a huge number of heavily armed brown-water vessels, whose missions can be done flexibly by multi-mission aerial platforms

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby arvin » 26 May 2021 20:21

This should belong to the US military thread, but posting it here since IN can do the same with Saras MK2 currently in design. What US military wants is adding floats to C-130 to make it amphibious that would enable it deliver specialists by sea.

I have been advocating for long to add floats to Saras since that is the quickest way to get an amphibious aircraft. It is waste of time and money to pursue US-2 when we have ghar ki Murgi\Saras. US-2 is purely a amphibious aircraft with very limited land capability. In contrast Saras can be adapted for land and sea use by adding floats with wheels. Swap the wheels with skids and the plane can be used in snow deserts of Tibet. A single plane that can be used in land, water or snow with minor modifications.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... s-wishlist

The U.S. military is once again looking at the potential of an amphibious C-130 Hercules variant to operate from littoral areas in support of special operations forces. The project, which in its early stages, has yielded an artist’s concept of an MC-130J Commando II multi-mission combat transport fitted with large underslung floats mounted on the fuselage.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Philip » 27 May 2021 00:58

Saras,good thought, though it has yet to be fully developed built in series prod. We have the DO-228 though. There was I think an OZ concept of an amphib DO with a fuselage float in a prev. VAYU issue. However,the BE-200 is the best multi-role amphib for the IN/CG,as the US-2 is v.expensive and unarmed. Many air shows ago,a BE-200 came to BLR,water-bombed the runway impressively,why it's the firefighting aircraft of choice in Europe too apart from mil. use. We lose so much of forest cover every year due to fires and the piddly buckets ued by our MI-17s simply Aren't comparable.

Coming back to the issue of a light FFG/corvette. I mentioned our Petyas earlier. Fine warships,fast,had a good mix of armament esp. ASW,but no helo,only 1150t.Our Koras with a flight deck but no hangar are just 1000t. As I said,the P-28s poorly armed,are larger than our erstwhile Leanders and expensive .What is happening with Indian shipbuilding is large construction time,7 years for just one DDG,unacceptable. The P-17s/17As are actually larger than the Rajput/Kashin DDGs,the first just decommissioned. They are also quite expensive.
The best bang for the buck appears to be the Talwar/Krivak FFGs,but even here there is a limitation as to how many we can afford,unless we sacrifice numbers of larger P-17As and P-15+s. What I'm proposing is a true multi-role corvette below 2000t,the size of our OPVs,that can carry an ASW helo,a main gun (76mm),8 SSMs,BMos-NG will be available in the future,smaller than existing BMos,in fact a 16 cell UVML could even theoretically carry the LR supersonic SMART ASW missile,but that would be best fitted onto a larger combatant with a longer-range sonar,10t ASW helo,etc. The corvette could also carry the SRSAM system being developed for the 3 services, one or two MBUs,Paket type hard-kill ASW/torpedo system and a CIWS,gatlings/BPDMS.
Ideally a higher freeboard for a below-deck hangar for the ASW helo would reduce length,allow space for the CIWS/30mm gatlings plus a 16/24 cell SRSAM system aft of the funnel. The Paket/TT launchers within the hull below deck as in the Talwars,with the rest of the weaponry forward of the superstructure. Locating SSMs in 2 inclined quad launchers amidships as in the erstwhile Nanuchkas and Tarantulas is also possible but VLS improves stealth. Right now we have no new below 2800t multi-role corvette which can be built at affordable cost in large number at all.The next size of vessel will be the ASW shallow water corvettes of around 750t.

I am giving details about a new Iranian missile corvette for its IRGC-N.not as something to be copied ,not even Buyan-M,but as an example of how a nation uniquely designs its warships to suit its needs.
https://news.usni.org/2021/03/29/irans- ... l-doctrine

As said before ,ASW warfare will be our biggest bugbear in the future with increasing nos. of Chin and PN subs permanently operational in the IOR.Mining will be one method by which they will attempt to bottle up the IN. As a reminder,in WW1, the RN and French fleet along with a v.large number of troops,were in the Dardenelles heading for Istanbul which poorly defended by the Ottomans.The fleet turrned into unmarked minefield with disastrous consequences. A large part of the fleet was sunk or damaged,which was just one hour away from Istanbul which the Ottomans were hastily abandoning. Churchill, then First Lord of the Admiralty pleaded with the cabinet to press on regardless of the heavy lossess, which he said inevitable in war if you wanted victory. He convinced the cabinet of the same and orders were given to the RN.However,Adm.Jackie Fisher the then chief refused to send the fleet on! Despite pressure from the govt. he stood firm and the order was revoked to Churchill's dismay. The Ottomans who were abandoning Istanbul couldn't believe their luck,came back with heavy reinforcements to save the city and the country. Churchill rued that WW1 could've been won within an hour had the fleet sailed on.

Here is an old Aug.2018 report about the IN getting Karakurt missile corvettes from Ru,doubtful now,but gives an idea about the direction in which the IN is looking.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 593432.ece

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told local media that the Indian Navy could soon get the warships armed with the lethal Kaliber land attack cruise missile that is capable of hitting the enemy 2,500 km away.


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