India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Aditya_V
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Apr 2021 22:59

Post Galwan sticks and stone treaties are out, PLA can no longer needle us in the same manner. Besides officially they might want to admit 4 dead but it probably means a lot more died , causing a bloody nose and a rethink.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 20 Apr 2021 22:38

^^ There is no re-think by PLA (at least that's not what troops on ground are seeing). The updated rules of engagement are more nuanced than what is being reported - there are conditions imposed. Firing is only allowed under specific circumstances.

Example
“Now, we said, if you come close we will fire. Distance is dependent on the conditions like day or night, location and so on... If they are about to be overrun or in self-defence, troops are authorised to fire.”


--------------------------
On the subject of PLA recruits of Tibetans - they have always relied on certain tribes for stability and that will continue. Tribe/Family/ethnicity is always important in most countries particularly for promotions - these are often unwritten rules.

------------
PLA told IA that India should be happy with what it's achieved at Pangong Tso and that PLA will stand it's ground on other sites.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby VinodTK » 22 Apr 2021 14:23

ZojlLa Pass reopens: Big relief for Ladakh, Army

From deccanchronicle.com: Opening of Srinagar-Leh and Manali-Leh highways is crucial for the supply of ammunition, food, fuel, essentials for Indian troops in Ladakh

Image
This year the ZojiLa Pass opened after a closure of 110 days, compared to an average of 150 days in previous years. — (Photo:PTI)

New Delhi: The roads to Ladakh have opened after winter amidst the continued standoff with China. The ZojiLa Pass, which connects Kashmir to Ladakh, was opened on Wednesday and the Manali-Leh highway was opened some three weeks ago.

The opening of the Srinagar-Leh and Manali-Leh highways is crucial for the supply of ammunition, food, fuel and other essentials for the Indian troops who are deployed in Ladakh. The opening of these roads indicates that the Army has successfully managed the winter deployment of the additional troops who were rushed into Ladakh after the tensions soared with China. Last year the Indian Army had rushed supplies to Ladakh for some 50,000 troops which were to be stationed in the area during winter at sub-zero temperatures due to the tensions with China.

The strategic 428 km Manali-Leh highway was opened by the Border Roads Organisation more than one-and-a-half months ahead of schedule. However, due to the snowfall, movement on it has been getting affected. The strategically crucial mighty ZojiLa Pass on the Srinagar-Kargil-Leh road was opened Wednesday by the BRO, establishing road connectivity to Ladakh after four months. The pass closes every year in winter due to the heavy snowfall and opens only by the end of April the next year.

This year the ZojiLa Pass opened after a closure of 110 days, compared to an average of 150 days in previous years. Located at a height of 11,650 feet, ZojiLa is a strategic pass that provides a vital link between Kashmir Valley and Ladakh and is the key to the operational preparedness of the armed forces in the sector.

Due to the tensions with China and focus on infrastructure development, there was focus this time to keep ZojiLa Pass’ closure to the minimum.

This time the ZojiLa Pass was kept open till December 31, 2020. Also, the snow clearance operations to open the road began on February 7 by Projects Beacon and Vijayak of the BRO. The connectivity across ZojiLa was initially established on February 15 and it was planned to open the pass for the Army and civil traffic by the end of February or early March. However, continuous bad weather conditions, poor visibility and heavy snowfall, that triggered avalanches, had delayed the opening.

Finally, after efforts by Projects Beacon and Vijayak of BRO, connectivity was re-established on April 21 and 10 civil trucks, carrying essential fresh supplies, moved across the ZojiLa Pass towards Kargil, bringing much needed relief to the people of Ladakh. Lt. Gen. Rajeev Chaudhary, the BRO director-general, said the ZojiLa Pass’ reopening will facilitate the availability of essential goods and supplies for the people of Ladakh and also enable the easier movement of Army convoys

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby wig » 23 Apr 2021 11:32

Match Chinese MRLs with Pinaka: Lt Gen. P. Ravi Shankar

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-04-22

do read the complete interview. insightful
extracts
Based on recent reports, these MRLS are either the 280 km AR- 3, the PHL-03 MRL with 12 launch tubes for 300-mm rockets (range 130-160 km) or the standard A-100 rocket launcher which is very similar to the Smerch which that we have.

PRS: These rocket systems will operate from bases--maybe air bases--where there is intrinsic air defence protection. If they get out of these ‘hides’, they will be vulnerable in open terrain. We must not get perturbed by this news. They are using missiles to fill the void in their air force capabilities. Clearly, what they are doing is posturing, ‘deterrence by punishment’. We need to respond to this with ‘deterrence by denial’.

How do we do this?

PRS: They can target Leh from Hotan (in Xinjiang) using the 400 km range version of the rocket. But if they use the 160 km variant, they have to come onto their G-219 highway passing through Aksai Chin. This means that the whole system will get exposed. They will deploy in a hide, stage forward to shoot and scoot. But in doing so, during entry or exit, they can be detected. And they can be vulnerable after firing. A rocket fired at this altitude will be visible from miles away. They have many vehicles like an ammunition loader etc. which means they have to deploy astride a road, they can’t go far away. So what we need to do first is keep them under surveillance, then hunt them down with our special forces or trans-border patrols. We need to have dedicated surveillance capability. This means our sensor-to-shooter links have to be of a very high order, including communications and procedures which we don’t have now. Deterrence by denial should be our motto, ideally using the extended range Pinaka MRLs.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 24 Apr 2021 01:19

Nothing alarming nor surprising in this article. GOI is always speaking to TSP/A. Talks are more advanced than this article lets out.

Pakistan seeks specific actions for India talks to move ahead
First, a permanent halt to demographic change in Indian-administered Kashmir, where India in April 2020 introduced a new domicile law that would allow long-term migrants from other parts of the country to gain permanent residence.

“This would inevitably be necessary to move forward,” a Pakistani source said.

Second, Indian authorities would have to release political and other prisoners being held since it imposed a strict lockdown in Indian-administered Kashmir in August 2019, when it revoked Article 370 of its constitution, which gave Indian-administered Kashmir a special constitutional status.

Third, the removal by India of blockades on communication and movement in the disputed region.

Fourth, giving back full statehood rights to Indian-administered Kashmir, which were also revoked as part of the August 2019 actions, and “recognising that it is subject to an internationally recognised territorial dispute with Pakistan”.

Fifth, a reduction in Indian security forces deployment in Indian-administered Kashmir, where hundreds of thousands of security forces personnel have been deployed following the August 2019 imposition of lockdown after India’s Article 370 was revoked.

“The markers I have mentioned, these are what we define as ‘the enabling environment’,” said a source.


“The fact that Article 370 is not prominent in the current Pakistani thinking indicates to me that the government of Pakistan understands what India can and can’t do,” said Happymon Jacob, founder of the Council for Strategic and Defense Research in New Delhi.

“I don’t think any of these [demands] are non-negotiable. These are achievable conditionalities.”

India is always talking to TSP/A so this isn't news.
“An authorised back channel, where [specific individuals] are tasked to go forward and achieve something is not happening,” the source said. “[Other] communication channels are always open, even in the worst of times, communication channels, such as the intelligence channels, are open.”

Analysts say the unstructured nature of the communication has both advantages and potential pitfalls.

“What we are hearing in Delhi is that you are looking at multiple people talking to multiple people on that side,” said Jacob in New Delhi.

“This is neither a designated back channel nor a consistent back channel. These are all bits and pieces of backchannels, and this is fundamentally different from what has happened in back channels between the two sides in the past.”

“[India would likely ask Pakistan to] put a tap on terrorism especially on some of the new [armed] organisations that have propped up in Kashmir, The Resistance Front (TRF) and some other organisations,” said Jacob.

“Prevent terrorism from derailing the process and in particular make sure that no high visibility, high value attacks take place.”


“There is no excitement, we are treading very cautiously,” a Pakistani source said. “They must be treading cautiously, too. That is the history.”

Trust, the source said, was at a premium in the current talks.

“We are very sincerely testing out whether they genuinely want to talk about Kashmir.”

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vips » 24 Apr 2021 04:04

shyamd wrote:Nothing alarming nor surprising in this article. GOI is always speaking to TSP/A. Talks are more advanced than this article lets out.

Pakistan seeks specific actions for India talks to move ahead
First, a permanent halt to demographic change in Indian-administered Kashmir, where India in April 2020 introduced a new domicile law that would allow long-term migrants from other parts of the country to gain permanent residence.

“This would inevitably be necessary to move forward,” a Pakistani source said.

Second, Indian authorities would have to release political and other prisoners being held since it imposed a strict lockdown in Indian-administered Kashmir in August 2019, when it revoked Article 370 of its constitution, which gave Indian-administered Kashmir a special constitutional status.

Third, the removal by India of blockades on communication and movement in the disputed region.

Fourth, giving back full statehood rights to Indian-administered Kashmir, which were also revoked as part of the August 2019 actions, and “recognising that it is subject to an internationally recognised territorial dispute with Pakistan”.

Fifth, a reduction in Indian security forces deployment in Indian-administered Kashmir, where hundreds of thousands of security forces personnel have been deployed following the August 2019 imposition of lockdown after India’s Article 370 was revoked.

“The markers I have mentioned, these are what we define as ‘the enabling environment’,” said a source.



In other words they are asking for everything that would mean India agreeing to to keep Kashmir burning and bring in the earlier enabling conditions to facilitate the Break India forces in Kashmir. They are not asking for much are they?

“The fact that Article 370 is not prominent in the current Pakistani thinking indicates to me that the government of Pakistan understands what India can and can’t do,” said Happymon Jacob, founder of the Council for Strategic and Defense Research in New Delhi.

“I don’t think any of these [demands] are non-negotiable. These are achievable conditionalities.”


They are imposing a condition that Indian Citizens/Domicile holders cannot migrate and settle in Kashmir, this while punjabi pakistanis have settled in large numbers and reduced the kashmiris to a small minority in POK and GB. And this is acceptable to a Founder of a think-tank in India?

Any wonder we sometimes find ourselves in strategic shit-hole? Remember similar Track II/III shenanigans which led to Musharraf/MMS call for making the borders irrelevant and free movement across the borders in Agra?


“India would likely ask Pakistan to] put a tap on terrorism especially on some of the new [armed] organisations that have propped up in Kashmir, The Resistance Front (TRF) and some other organisations,” said Jacob.

“Prevent terrorism from derailing the process and in particular make sure that no high visibility, high value attacks take place.”


Simply Unbelievable. From what he is saying India will ask for and per the implication of his suggestions it will be valid for Pakistan to just hold back its terrorist dogs from creating any disturbance in return for real strategic and military concessions that will be made by India just for starting the talks.



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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby yensoy » 24 Apr 2021 07:26

^^^^ Pak reaction and expectation is that way not because Pakis are fools but because they have been conditioned to expect that response. Let's not blame them, but blame ourselves for the way we have rewarded them for their tantrums, kept an archaic and unjust provision in our constitution active for 70 years and haven't hesitated to rescind our policy when they protested (either directly or through their proxies).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby arshyam » 24 Apr 2021 09:38

Our "think-tanks" mostly stink, and the article above with quotes from a think-tanker is evidence in support. I mean, the only thing the pakis didn't do is to mention the number 370, but in effect, they have asked for a rollback of everything its removal has brought about. And this seems to escape our "thinker". The Sharm-el-Sheik mindset is well and truly alive, and sadly, looks like it will outlast Modi.

In conclusion, the name "stink-tank" is actually more appropriate.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Apr 2021 10:20

Only from Al Jazeera.

Meaningless as anything out of orientalist Arabian fantasies. Is it even common sense that Pakistan could set any conditions on India?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 24 Apr 2021 14:23

The only conversation that matters is the one between NSA Ajit Doval and TSPA chief Bajwa as well as the intel agencies. The rest are just couriers.

Both are no fools and the article is just for communicating to the Pakistani public that Pakistani/Kashmir interests are being protected etc.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Parasu » 24 Apr 2021 14:56

arshyam wrote:Our "think-tanks" mostly stink, and the article above with quotes from a think-tanker is evidence in support. I mean, the only thing the pakis didn't do is to mention the number 370, but in effect, they have asked for a rollback of everything its removal has brought about. And this seems to escape our "thinker". The Sharm-el-Sheik mindset is well and truly alive, and sadly, looks like it will outlast Modi.

In conclusion, the name "stink-tank" is actually more appropriate.


Happymon Jacob is an assistant Prof in JNU and a left libtard. He is as far away from Indian strategic circles as Pakistanis themselves. Dunno why we are giving footage to this joker here on BR.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 26 Apr 2021 04:08

Another article of High Level TSPA people testing the water with the public before there is open discussion or public meet with GOI
Indian offer led to ‘quiet’ talks on all major issues
• High-level sources say backchannel talks are continuing between the intelligence leaderships of two countries
• Pakistan’s primary interest at the moment is to ensure that Occupied Kashmir gets back its statehood
• The strategic rethink is grounded in the country’s need to prioritise economic matters

“It is an opportune time for us to take a strategic pause,” says an official. “We need a break from the cycle of violence and focus on domestic issues.”

The backchannel talks, sources confirm, are being held between the intelligence leaderships of the two countries. Sources say New Delhi had preferred that these quiet negotiations take place at this level instead of through a political platform, and Islamabad had consented.

The Sir Creek dispute may be one such ‘low-hanging fruit’. Officials argue that both Pakistan and India have pursued direct and indirect policies to resolve the Kashmir issue and have failed. “Isn’t it time we go back to the drawing board and try to find a new strategy,” asks an official. “The path of dialogue will be bumpy, but if we stay the course we can reach our objectives,” he says.

The backchannel dialogue hit a bump recently when the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the federal cabinet announced a decision to allow import of sugar and wheat from India, only for the cabinet to not approve the decision the next day when some members, including Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi, opposed the move. Sources now believe this confusion had an adverse impact on the quiet dialogue and the government was pressured into adopting a tough stance. However, the sources say the ‘bump’ is a temporary one.

There is a major rethink within the Pakistani leadership amid a greater preference for what is termed “strategic patience”. This policy is based on a realisation that ‘active borders’ (as well as the LoC) that witness constant low-level conflict are a major drain on the economy at a time when Pakistan needs to strengthen its financial muscles. The rethink that is slowly becoming evident now has been ‘ongoing’ for a number of years. It has generated various quiet initiatives including, as per sources, a change in the curriculum of the military war college to reflect changing regional dynamics.

Highly placed officials argue that India is investing in this fresh engagement with Pakistan because it is faced with a two-front situation on its western and northern borders. As a result, it has had to move a significant number of its forces deployed on the western front to the northern one with China. After this re-deployment, Pakistani intelligence officials estimate that the ratio of Indian to Pakistan forces deployed against each other has, for the first time, come down to 1:1. Pakistan’s assessment is that under the BJP government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, India would be better prepared for improved ties with Pakistan.

“We are moving away from the ‘jihadi’ culture,” admits an official source. “Anyone that the state cannot control is not an asset, he is a liability.” Officials emphasise that the state wants to eradicate militancy from society and make Pakistan a ‘normal’ state.

Sources say the Pakistani leadership is now firmly committed to resolving conflicts and achieving normalisation in the region. The leadership is resolved to not step back at any cost, they say. “The Pakistan-India conflict has become a ‘saas-bahu kee larai’ (mother-in-law and daughter-in-law fight) that should end,” says a senior official.


Couldn't help but :lol: :lol: at this article on how they are positioning it with the public but it does have some tidbits that are true..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 26 Apr 2021 15:07

shyamd wrote:---------------------------------------
The other interesting thing is GOI, Paris and Aussies are creating a new framework for Indian Ocean separate to the Quad (US/Aus/Ind/Jap) grouping. All three have agreed to join hands. Paris is promising ISR, Rafale, Submarines + cash support. Aussies have bought french subs. Shringla visit to capital said GOI is worried Gwadar and Hambantota can quickly be converted into a naval facility in the future.


Link
While India and France discussed China and its role in the Indo-Pacific and Indian Ocean, Paris has invited Indian Navy to participate in European Maritime Awareness in the Straits of Hormuz (EMSOH) as well as use facilities at the French base in Djibouti on the Horn of Africa. On China, the two sides have decided to build maritime capabilities to ensure that international maritime law is followed in both Indo-Pacific and Indian Ocean through joint surveillance and sharing of intelligence. France’s Chief Military Advisor also accompanied envoy Bonne. France has also offered India to join in trilateral naval exercises with UAE, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia.


---------------------------------
GOI is conducting strategic communications that If there is no forward movement on withdrawal once the snow melts there will be escalation.

- A5 brandished at full operational mode in multiple locations (Vajpayee model)
- Movement of troops forward - Army plans to keep 2 strike corps for mountains facing China amid Ladakh crisis
- Guided artillery and other equipment
- Friendly countries have promised to provide additional transport and A2A refuelling as well as logistic equipment (example given in above article of UAE/France there are others too in the region)
- GOI greenlight will be given at very short notice to undertake an offensive operation.
And Much more.

COAS visit to forward areas was to communicate this directly with key individuals in IA.

Notice to effect will be very short but will but within boundaries of international law.

-----------
Adding to the above about Indo-France

- French joining exercises to take place in Bay of Bengal also with the Quad (US/Jap/Aus/IN)
- French are proposing amphibious drills - these will be conducted at the joint level (Air, Navy, Land)
- French bases in Polynesia and Caledonia are currently being upgraded
- French/Jap/GOI held a nat sec workshop last month
- GIGN training with NSG
----------------------------------------------------
Above now formally confirmed...
Quad, France and UAE join hands in 2 naval exercises to dominate Indo-Pacific

The UAE will be joining India and France for the first time in a trilateral naval exercise in the strategically important Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman in late April under the Varuna banner. This is scheduled between April 25 and 27.

While dates of the QUAD-plus France naval exercise has to be firmed up on paper, India, the US, Australia, and Japan (the members of QUAD), with France will showcase their naval strength and commitment to freedom of navigation in the Bay of Bengal from April 4 to 7 with missile-guided destroyers, frigates, submarines and surveillance aircraft practising complex manoeuvres under the La Perouse banner.

Both La Perouse and Varuna last took place in 2019, but were cancelled due to global pandemic last year. UAE’s naval chief confirmed his country’s participation in the Varuna trilateral exercises.

According to a former Indian Navy western commander who asked not to be named, La Perouse shows that the QUAD-plus maritime force can work together anywhere in the Indo-Pacific as there is convergence on shared values, democracy, freedom of navigation and cooperation. The aim of the QUAD-plus navies is to project dominance in the Indo-Pacific from the Gulf of Aden to the north and far Pacific, touching the western coast of US.
[/quote]
----------------------------------------
US is going to announce some major steps against in the Strategic Competition Act 2021 bill.

-Basically a ramp up in intel sharing between Quad and ASEAN (Though India/ASEAN will be treated as one level lower than Aus and Jap in terms of intel sharing).
-US wants 5 eyes to take political steps against PRC
-US will expand Defence presence in the Delhi Embassy. So Pentagon teams and Defence Attache teams will see increase.
- More quad exercises and cooperation in maritime and cyber domains
- France is leading the EU strategy on Indo - Pacific. Essentially they along with the UK are stepping up permanent deployment in Indo-Pacific. UK carrier strike group is on it's way to India.
- US & Japan are pooling in funding to invest in Critical Infra in ASEAN to compete with PRC - particularly 5G/Telecoms

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 02 May 2021 02:53

Did NSA Ajit Doval meet Pakistan ISI chief in UAE last year?
Pakistan’s Army chief General Qamar Javed Bajwa said they did meet, which resulted in the February 25 joint statement, by which the two militaries agreed to adhere to the 2003 ceasefire understanding
The recent thaw in India-Pakistan relationship is guided by trade and economics rather than Kashmir and terrorism, sources quoted Pakistan’s Army chief General Qamar Javed Bajwa saying to a group of some 20 top journalists at an official ‘iftar’ party on April 23.

Though the conversation between General Bajwa and the Pakistani journalists was off the record, details have now started to emerge. General Bajwa is supposed to have confirmed that India’s National Security Adviser (NSA) Ajit Doval and Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) chief Lt. Gen Faiz Hameed had one secret meeting in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in December last year, which was followed by the February 25 joint statement from the militaries of the two neighbours agreeing to strict adherence to the 2003 ceasefire understanding, The Indian Express has confirmed.

On why was the meeting held in UAE, Bajwa said it was primarily because of the pandemic and ruled out UAE’s mediation in the talks. The ‘iftar’ party was not attended by ISI chief Hameed, but top Army and intelligence officials were present.

Bajwa said the December 2020 meeting happened after India hinted at resuming talks between the two nations. The Pakistan Army General said that both India and Pakistan agreed that rather than “Kashmir first” or “terrorism first”, all issues would be addressed at the same time, including trade.

When asked by journalists why Pakistan did a U-turn on trade in cotton and sugar with India, with Prime Minister Imran Khan raising the Kashmir issue once again, Bajwa said the political leadership may have its reasons, but long lasting peace is possible only with trade and commerce. He gave the example of European Union (EU) and The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

Bajwa said that Pakistan wants restoration of full statehood for Kashmir with no change in the demographic balance of the region. Bajwa said India has assured Pakistan on both counts. Therefore, he said the application or abrogation of Article 370 in Kashmir makes no difference for Pakistan.

Bajwa may have a vision to see India and Pakistan as trade partners, but he is due for retirement next year and there is no guarantee the next General would share his dream. Bajwa said his children too have warned him that he might not emerge “unscathed” from the Afghanistan and the Indian processes, but said he is “determined to do so”. He said the Pakistan Army has changed as an institution in its strategic thinking, which is reflecting in the present communication with India.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vips » 02 May 2021 20:48

This is al classic Taqqiya to escape FATF and seek more aid and postponement of maturing loan repayments. The porkis are trying to make a virtue out of necessity.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pgbhat » 02 May 2021 23:22

shyamd wrote:Did NSA Ajit Doval meet Pakistan ISI chief in UAE last year?
Bajwa may have a vision to see India and Pakistan as trade partners, but he is due for retirement next year and there is no guarantee the next General would share his dream. Bajwa said his children too have warned him that he might not emerge “unscathed” from the Afghanistan and the Indian processes, but said he is “determined to do so”. He said the Pakistan Army has changed as an institution in its strategic thinking, which is reflecting in the present communication with India.
:rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Anujan » 03 May 2021 02:38

Is Bajwa a secret RAA agent? There were rumors of him being an Ahmadi

https://www.newindianexpress.com/world/ ... 65532.html

Plea filed against Pakistan Army chief for being Ahmadi Muslim

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rrao » 03 May 2021 14:06

Pakistani troops violated ceasefire and opened fire along the International Border in Samba sector of Jammu and Kashmir at 6 am today, as per the Border Security Force (BSF). This was the first breach after India and Pakistan agreed to hold fire at the LoC. The BSF said they have retaliated.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Rsatchi » 03 May 2021 14:23

^^^ Here we go
The first fallout of the WB election results???
Probably more in the offing :
1.Poonawallah leaving
2. throw the COVID mismanagement on the Centre
3. ?? Cashmore troubles to start??
Hope we dont have a repeat of Pulwana or Mumbai

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 04 May 2021 16:06

Parasu wrote:
arshyam wrote:Our "think-tanks" mostly stink, and the article above with quotes from a think-tanker is evidence in support. I mean, the only thing the pakis didn't do is to mention the number 370, but in effect, they have asked for a rollback of everything its removal has brought about. And this seems to escape our "thinker". The Sharm-el-Sheik mindset is well and truly alive, and sadly, looks like it will outlast Modi.

In conclusion, the name "stink-tank" is actually more appropriate.


Happymon Jacob is an assistant Prof in JNU and a left libtard. He is as far away from Indian strategic circles as Pakistanis themselves. Dunno why we are giving footage to this joker here on BR.


I've read his book - didn't merit finishing it. Probably closer to the Pak army than some Pak writers.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 04 May 2021 17:16

https://www.dawn.com/news/1621875/pakis ... ian-troops

(link is from a haram) . May be we are in our own area and this pukis as usual trying to make a new claim

ISLAMABAD: Amid signals of resumption of dialogue, Pakistan on Monday lodged strong protest with India over its forces crossing over Charwa Sector of Sialkot and resorting to unprovoked firing.

The foreign affairs ministry in a note verbale addressed to the Indian High Commission in Islamabad said: “The Indian BSF troops displayed aggressive behaviour by crossing the Working Boundary and blatantly using mortars with an intent to sabotage the peace along Line of Control and Working Boundary.”

The ministry termed it “first serious and grave violation of Directors General Military Operation (DGMOs) understanding in 2021” by the Indian side.

The diplomatic communication stated: “Troops from Indian BSF post in Square-9530 located in IIOJK Jammu Sector opposite Pakistani Charwa Sector fired approximately 30 rounds of the small arms and four bombs of 60-millimetre mortar at Pakistani post in Square-9630 without any provocation. The incident happened when 15 BSF troops with three tractors crossed Working Boundary and started ploughing on Pakistani side.

-------------------------
We should also start strengthening bridges across the border to take on weigh of Arjun :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby S_Madhukar » 05 May 2021 02:55

Since our govt is so involved in smoking the peace pipe with Bakis they should indeed offer to “build” these bridges of peace that can support 80ton vehicles… better if the Chinese can fund at friendly prices :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 08 May 2021 08:53

This thread seems to have lost focus on Ladakh situation of late. Some recent tweets by Saurav Jha--->

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 58053?s=19
The Kailash Range has been vacated in full. And I don't see how that strengthens India's position.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 37249?s=19
There are again reports of heightened PLAGF activity at Rudok, which is their main sustenance base in Eastern Ladakh. They have also sent a lot of materiel to three posts near the LAC. Clearly, Chinese thinking revolves around what they see about the Covid situation in India.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 35040?s=19
Unless the Chinese are tested in a manner akin to the Ussuri River clashes, they will continue their current way of doing things. And whether New Delhi denies it or not, Chicom has managed to shift the LAC westwards for the time being in small stretches.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 13061?s=19
In Gogra-Hotsprings Chinese forward movement was clearly designed to bring Indian posts under observation. It is not surprising that they are reluctant to disengage from this area. A return to their earlier positions will render them blind once again.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 94755?s=19
Right now, Delhi does not seem to have the appetite for a 'test'. Unfortunately, the Chinese seem to have read this sentiment. And so, they are going to press home what they think is an advantageous position. Delhi has no option but to actually grow a pair & send a message.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 60416?s=19
Chicom's (PLAGF's) strength may not be what it seems. It is probably true that they have been able to rotate their soldiers more easily. But their entire occupation strategy would have failed had they not been able to do that given the nature of their soldiers.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 59875?s=19
Chicom has shown they can winter in Ladakh. This 'we'll turn the LAC into a LoC' is a non-strategy and won't wear them out. India must prepare for a test. Another couple of winters in the current positions is undesirable.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 May 2021 12:09

Prince of Good Times has tore praveen sawhney a new one:

TWITTER

@Ak5985965 wrote:

Rubbish. You are no military professional. You don't even know basics of map reading, tactics forget operational art and strategy. We can break Pak spine while holding China.

1. We have 25-26 Divs positioned against Pak's 24. Pak is like a banana split East West, by Indus. It is also split North West in Pakjab by the 5 Punjab rivers.

2. 14 of Pak's divs are in Pakjab. Min 02 are needed against Iran and 02 for pacifying Balochistan and 01 for NWFP. That leaves just 4-5 South Punjab and further southwards

3. We can destroy all bridges on all rivers making inter sector movement of Pak Army very difficult. We will also hit road and rail arteries which are all North South with key nodes at places like RYK. This will trap 14 Divs in North. We will hold these in Jammu, Punjab, with 10 Divs

4. That gives us 15 Divs to launch against Pak in Cholistan and other areas. They will face only 5-6 Divs. We can and will break Pak spine

Pak has severe ammunition shortages and their generals are busy running Fauji Foundation businesses. Arent you a partner in some ?

Armour and gun serviceability is less than 50%.

5. PAF has 78 F16s of which only 24 are Block 52. Rest of Paf is 50 yr old Mirage 3 and 5. Yes, they do have JF17 which are basically Chinese Mig 21 upgrades

Against this we have 420 4, 4.5 Gen fighters, 60 Bisons ,100 Jags

We can keep 250 odd for Pak to achieve air dominance. And rest can be held to dissuade China. Of these 260 Su30s can handle both roles in the same sortie

6. Given topography we also have a radar advantage on Pak. No more here

7. Naval balance is heavily in our favour

Don't forget 36 Mig 29 Ks of the Navy.

8. Re China, we have more than enough to hold them and also launch short, limited offensives. I have explained this in detail to you on previous occasions

Terrian is heavily in our favour, affords huge advantages on land ,in air

8. So we can hold China and break Pak spine. Simple Military logic !

Our only problem is mindset. Games are played to weaken our minds so that we don't see our own strengths, enemy weaknesses and huge terrain advantages. You want enemy to win without fighting. Wont happen

How can they "overcome" when we are war and using arty and unrestricted warfare? These chaps are not supermen and neither are they so brave. Trust me. I know them well.

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/13 ... 94920?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 10 May 2021 20:32

LakshmanPST wrote:This thread seems to have lost focus on Ladakh situation of late. Some recent tweets by Saurav Jha--->


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 37249?s=19
There are again reports of heightened PLAGF activity at Rudok, which is their main sustenance base in Eastern Ladakh. They have also sent a lot of materiel to three posts near the LAC. Clearly, Chinese thinking revolves around what they see about the Covid situation in India.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 35040?s=19
Unless the Chinese are tested in a manner akin to the Ussuri River clashes, they will continue their current way of doing things. And whether New Delhi denies it or not, Chicom has managed to shift the LAC westwards for the time being in small stretches.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 13061?s=19
In Gogra-Hotsprings Chinese forward movement was clearly designed to bring Indian posts under observation. It is not surprising that they are reluctant to disengage from this area. A return to their earlier positions will render them blind once again.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/139 ... 94755?s=19
Right now, Delhi does not seem to have the appetite for a 'test'. Unfortunately, the Chinese seem to have read this sentiment. And so, they are going to press home what they think is an advantageous position. Delhi has no option but to actually grow a pair & send a message.


The problem is China are saying one thing in private to GOI interlocutors and doing another on the ground. In private they have told EAM that they want status quo and return to normalcy. On the ground PLA have moved additional troops/mechanised forces, reinforced bases to the rear and are refusing pull out.

Anyways, the powers that be in Delhi are miffed by PRC just messing them around and direction to forces is that there will be no further mil-to-mil talks. There will be some measures soon in the economic front against PRC too.

Military advice has been clear from the start - hit fast and hard as we have the advantage. GOI preferred diplomacy and waiting it out (which is fair enough). Now COVID has hit and Armed forces are stretched (again and this is what caused PLA to move in).

Quote from CDS to press ""While we are taking some degree of risk because we also have to support the people and some people [personnel] have been pulled back in our effort to serve the nation, after carrying out the risk assessment and risk analysis, we have identified areas where we think we need to keep our guard higher."
Several governments both regional and foreign have provided logistical support to relieve IAF assets from doing international pick ups of relief/covid equipment.. UAE has announced a major airbridge for COVID relief to 9 major cities in india - daily flights after Ajit Doval request for support to his Nat Sec counterparts in the GCC.

Armed forces are focusing on coming out on top of whatever type of threat they face - be it small clashes or small occupation measures. Remember the Mantra I have given - SPEED, MOBILITY and integrated/acclimatised forces in numbers..

Example of IA request/procurement

Army asks industry to design, develop portable helipads for its operational requirements

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 11 May 2021 10:01

I thought we did that decades ago with the Siachen ops! There are helipads available globally for Arctic conditions,etc.

Having crippled the country through bio-warfare tx to the China Virus, we are behaving like a scaredy cat. The MEA has no ghoolies, so too fin. min., can't even stop Chin goods from flooding India.Big tkt. bans like 5G,etc. do nothing for the small and micro-industries beggared by cheap Chin imports.
But we have to bite the bullet and show extra-firm resolve. Our mil. posture must be strengthened,critical weapon systems like light tanks or AVs available,light 155mm arty,MBRLS local and imported ,attack helos, extra fighters, from wherever to show the Chins we will bloody their nose and torch their backsides should they try their stunts again.

The window of opportunity for the PRC is now,when we're fighting the CV war. The gaps in inventory,etc. need to be plugged now when the threat is highest,not after the event.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby mody » 11 May 2021 15:42

We seem to have missed the bus. After we took the heights on the Kailash range in end of August, we should have pressed our advantage and taken an even more aggressive line against the Chinese. They were taken aback by our action and were not sure if we would go on the offensive or not. They didn't seem to be prepared to go on the offensive themselves and we should have called their bluff.
Any action would have been short and swift as the Chinese didn't know adequately how winter would affect the operations. Most likely armour and airforce would not have been involved and we could have succeeded in giving the Chinese a bloody nose.

Instead, now the Chinese have spent 1 winter in eastern Ladakh and know the logistics effort required to sustain their forces at the heights and also in rotating the forces on a regular basis. This will make them bolder in the future and they will plan for longer standoffs and more aggressive action in the future. Besides they are going to continue their super aggressive modernisation and expansion of the military. Some reports suggest that they are planning to add another 100 medium to heavy lift transport aircrafts.
The Chinese like to out build everybody else. How well they fight or their tactics and the quality of their soldiers won't matter, when they outnumber everyone else, three to 1. This will not happen in man power anymore, but in equipment it certainly will. Also, in the case of its Navy and Airforce the numbers soon will be 3-to-1 as compared to any other military force in the world, except the US.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 11 May 2021 17:25

The political leadership wanted to avoid war from an economic and preservation of lives perspective. If and when the domestic situation improves we can expect to see some action.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 12 May 2021 00:47

Thats an advantage dictatorships enjoy over democracies. Initially atleast.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 May 2021 01:56

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/13 ... 56321?s=19

The Prince of Good times on how praveen sawhney type are a weapon of chinese :

TWITTER

@Ak5985965:

There is a lot of misinformation about defence matters in media. Much of it is deliberate because our enemies - China, Pak want to make gains without actually fighting. Their instruments like Force magazine induce fear.

But they don't understand the very basics of warfare

1. Comprehensive National Power - an important concept but it is relavent only when you are fighting a long conventional war where terrain has no large role to play. Take Vietnam for example. US's comprehensive national power was 100 times that of Vietnam. What happened?

I would be much more concerned with a massive gap in comprehensive national power if its plains and desert. For example US and Iraq. But when its even slightly mountainous like USSR in Afghanistan comprehensive national power goes for a toss.

What matters folks is not

how many troops, guns, tanks, aircraft, missiles you have but how many can you commit to the theatre. How they are used, what tactics you use.

China has 850 odd 4/4.5 Gen fighters. We have 450. But how many can they actually deploy against us ? They need some for Taiwan

US also. Plus their airfields are very far from our theatre.

@bennedose has done a detailed assessment in a brilliant video and assesses only a fraction can be deployed against us.

In long multi year wars you can overcome this to some extent. But not in short sharp wars

2. Terrain - terrain is crucial. India has huge advantages in terrain both against Pak, China. The Himalays are dual toned in Ladakh for example. Plateau on Chinese side so they can bring mechanised elements relatively easily up to LAC. But moving further is hard due to

mountains. You can only move through passes. Therefore if we hold the passes, or dominate them with observation and fire then no matter how many forces you cannot use them.

This works in air as well. Our airfields are in a ring from Srinagar to Chabua at sea level. This gives us a huge advantage. Our a/c can take off with optimal loads, do their missions, recover to alternates. Maintenance, logistics is easier.

Same with Navy. Mallaca straits is a narrow, shallow strait. Submarines will gave to surface while transiting. Plus Chinese bases are over 3000 nautical miles away. Till China builds and sustains big bases closer they cannot do sustained deployments in IOR.

3. Tactics, training, ethos- These matter far more than equipment gaps. We have advantage on all three. You have seen it in Ladakh. Chinese were literally bleating for a withdrawal from Kailash ranges. And when they could they scooted.

Reports tell us of huge leadership, training and toughness problems. Mountain warfare cannot be done in vehicles. You have to dismount, climb, stay and fight. They can't do this

4. Willpower - So where do Chinese have an advantage? They are devious, use IW and subversion extremely well. They will not defeat us in hot war and they know it. They will gnaw at our national will to fight. Mess with our minds. Weaken minds of military, political

leaders. And public in general.

That is Shawney's , Shukla's role. And there are others as well including some Generals.

This is the game folks. If we can win in our minds, we will win on ground.

Lets learn from #Israel

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 14 May 2021 07:27

Hari Nair, What are you thinking?
- PLA reinforcing Depsang, Geography etc with armour ans India too.
- Gen. Narvane visit to birder this week to White Knights Corps? Looks Pak facing.
- Covid Phase 2 chaos. Now abating.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pratyush » 14 May 2021 10:01

Not Hari Nair,

I am thinking that the February withdrawal was a feint.

The real action will come in during the times when the winter snows are under 2 weeks away. The Indian Army can take the blow. But the onset of winters will make a counter offensive hard, if not impossible for India. Declare a unilateral cease fire.

With the chaos of Covid still fresh in the minds of people. The PRC offensive will be amplified by the opposition and used as one, two blow in order to knock out the government.

However, if this is PRC though process. Then it ignores the willingness of the Indian government to continue to fight using the Air force. While the army prepares to go on the offensive during early April or May.

So it will all boil down to the solution the PRC arrives at, about shattering the will power of the Indian government??

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 14 May 2021 12:21

ramana wrote:Hari Nair, What are you thinking?
- PLA reinforcing Depsang, Geography etc with armour ans India too.
- Gen. Narvane visit to birder this week to White Knights Corps? Looks Pak facing.
- Covid Phase 2 chaos. Now abating.

Gen. Naravane Was in Ladakh 2 weeks ago.

Alternative view - why wouldn’t PLA move more troops to their rear if GOI announcing transfer of strike corps to its rear?

In mil to mil talks PLA asked IA to reduce in rear….

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RKumar » 14 May 2021 15:57

Pratyush wrote:Not Hari Nair,

The real action will come in during the times when the winter snows are under 2 weeks away. The Indian Army can take the blow. But the onset of winters will make a counter offensive hard, if not impossible for India. Declare a unilateral cease fire.

With the chaos of Covid still fresh in the minds of people. The PRC offensive will be amplified by the opposition and used as one, two blow in order to knock out the government.


That is the most pessimistic outcome, you are listing here. Do you think once PM Modi lead government is out of door, can you imagine Rahul or the back lickers have the guts to stand against China? I leave the rest to your imagination.

Let me point out some points here - which are going against Chinese this time as compared to last year, in event of any new pushing and pulling on the border between two armies
- RoE has been changed - Spear, sharp edge items are considered arms. So we have the go-ahead to use our arm in kind and for this, there is no requirement to go up to Delhi.
- We all know what the Chinese Wuhan virus has done to our friends and families - there is certain hot-headedness among the ranks. This personal loss & anger could easily go out of hand - we will not take any more shit from bat-eaters.

This time around we might take the lead to kick their asses and they will be on the receiving end. And they might need to plan to do something next April if they still have the will to fight with us in our extended Ladhak.

I sincerely hope, the thing doesn't come to this and better heads in CPC prevail with their timely pull out from our lands.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pratyush » 14 May 2021 16:48

RKumar,

You have to read the last 2 sentences of the original post as well. :)

Mentally you have to be prepared to deal with the worst the PRC can do.

The resources PRC has and vulnerabilities that India has, have to be kept in mind. Let that be your starting point and you will never be surprised by what they can do. :)

Do you remember that Xi when he came to India gave an award to the Hindu for Journalism.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 May 2021 20:20

The pace of testing of new weapons has dramatically gone down. I hope it was not done with the purpose of "signalling" to China during the standoff.

The tests need to continue & orders placed. Don't see that happening. There will be a convenient "Covid" excuse

If the Govt is serious, all the key personnel (DRDO labs, OFB, Tier 1 & Tier 2 private sector supplier workforce) can all be vaccinated on an accelerated basis, irrespective of age. The same has happened for the Army. There shouldn't be any reason to relax our defenses

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 14 May 2021 21:20

shyamD, Am not arguing. Try to understand.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 15 May 2021 16:45

ramana wrote:shyamD, Am not arguing. Try to understand.

Just adding to your post - not arguing too.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RKumar » 16 May 2021 14:14

Pratyush wrote:RKumar,

You have to read the last 2 sentences of the original post as well. :)

Mentally you have to be prepared to deal with the worst the PRC can do.

The resources PRC has and vulnerabilities that India has, have to be kept in mind. Let that be your starting point and you will never be surprised by what they can do. :)

Do you remember that Xi when he came to India gave an award to the Hindu for Journalism.


I read those and intentionally left it out.

Weak GoI = services with one hand tied behind. Rest assured, no PM Modi - there will be no response and CPC vultures will keep grabbing something here and there without much reports in the media. Even if something is leaked, there will be a swap to show victory of scamgross.

I still remember someone telling me 3-4 years back, that PM Modi is creating infrastructure on the border - which will lead to war as Chinese will not be able to assert their power as they are used. When assertive armies will meet - there will be conflict. That is what we are seeing here playing out. I can’t predict, who will come after PM Modi, even if BJP will be ruling who will be the PM. Same army but different leaders will produce vastly different results.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshhan » 16 May 2021 18:50

Manish_Sharma wrote:https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/1392045214697656321?s=19

The Prince of Good times on how praveen sawhney type are a weapon of chinese :

TWITTER

@Ak5985965:

There is a lot of misinformation about defence matters in media. Much of it is deliberate because our enemies - China, Pak want to make gains without actually fighting. Their instruments like Force magazine induce fear.

But they don't understand the very basics of warfare

1. Comprehensive National Power - an important concept but it is relavent only when you are fighting a long conventional war where terrain has no large role to play. Take Vietnam for example. US's comprehensive national power was 100 times that of Vietnam. What happened?

I would be much more concerned with a massive gap in comprehensive national power if its plains and desert. For example US and Iraq. But when its even slightly mountainous like USSR in Afghanistan comprehensive national power goes for a toss.

What matters folks is not

how many troops, guns, tanks, aircraft, missiles you have but how many can you commit to the theatre. How they are used, what tactics you use.

China has 850 odd 4/4.5 Gen fighters. We have 450. But how many can they actually deploy against us ? They need some for Taiwan

US also. Plus their airfields are very far from our theatre.

@bennedose has done a detailed assessment in a brilliant video and assesses only a fraction can be deployed against us.

In long multi year wars you can overcome this to some extent. But not in short sharp wars

2. Terrain - terrain is crucial. India has huge advantages in terrain both against Pak, China. The Himalays are dual toned in Ladakh for example. Plateau on Chinese side so they can bring mechanised elements relatively easily up to LAC. But moving further is hard due to

mountains. You can only move through passes. Therefore if we hold the passes, or dominate them with observation and fire then no matter how many forces you cannot use them.

This works in air as well. Our airfields are in a ring from Srinagar to Chabua at sea level. This gives us a huge advantage. Our a/c can take off with optimal loads, do their missions, recover to alternates. Maintenance, logistics is easier.

Same with Navy. Mallaca straits is a narrow, shallow strait. Submarines will gave to surface while transiting. Plus Chinese bases are over 3000 nautical miles away. Till China builds and sustains big bases closer they cannot do sustained deployments in IOR.

3. Tactics, training, ethos- These matter far more than equipment gaps. We have advantage on all three. You have seen it in Ladakh. Chinese were literally bleating for a withdrawal from Kailash ranges. And when they could they scooted.

Reports tell us of huge leadership, training and toughness problems. Mountain warfare cannot be done in vehicles. You have to dismount, climb, stay and fight. They can't do this

4. Willpower - So where do Chinese have an advantage? They are devious, use IW and subversion extremely well. They will not defeat us in hot war and they know it. They will gnaw at our national will to fight. Mess with our minds. Weaken minds of military, political

leaders. And public in general.

That is Shawney's , Shukla's role. And there are others as well including some Generals.

This is the game folks. If we can win in our minds, we will win on ground.

Lets learn from #Israel


All this analysis was good and on spot for year 2020. But rest be assured when the chinese come back again in 2023, things would be much more different i.e if they choose to and Indian establishment doesn't change its way of doing things.

On the other hand I am not sure if there is actually any need for Chinese to strike us militarily. Even without any overt military campaign they have killed more than 1 million of our citizens(very conservative estimate) and set our economy back by years probably even a decade.


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