Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Vips
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 17 Jun 2021 08:51

Aditya_V wrote:And off course people forget given population density we need our missiles to look like any.other container/ goods trucks to enemy satellites which I think it does, it can be mistaken for IOCL/ BPCL truck from above.

And unlike Siberian, gobi desert, inner Mongolia we dont have large amounts of inhabited flat land where off road is really useful, no vehicle is going to go off road in Indian rough hilly forests, best is areas with high tree cover, tunnels in mountains, hiding in cement sheds in Urban areas, some of the SFC should be rail mobile while some of it road mobile.


How many IOCL/BPCL or for that matter any container/goods tucks have you seen in the tractor configuration above? The only times you see such trucks on Indian roads is when an oversize cargo is being transported and how frequently is that?

During war time for enemy satellites the unique length of the trailer with 28-32 tires coupled with expected area's of operation would 99% mean you know exactly what.

Just like the civil configuration of the Tractor configuration may fool the enemy 12X12 or 14X14 or 16X16 with fake payload's would equally serve the purpose.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Jun 2021 16:11

But it will take some time for us to prepare these TEL's, do we delay our deterrent till be have perfect TEL , and I dont see us having the same terrain as Siberia and China to do the exact same thing as they are doing.

Best is what we are doing, work with what we have, deploy it and then look for better solutions.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 17 Jun 2021 16:20

^^^

Is it possible for AI to be programmed for satalite imagery analysis?

A response to this can be shared in the relevant thread.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Jun 2021 10:13

Yes, AI would actually be great at this kind of stuff - look for a certain pattern of truck amongst images. But the question is one of coverage & resolution. Does even Umrika have the space/air + human assets to continuously monitor all our highways, exit points etc and take real-time pictures for analysis? Especially if there is deception involved, which will 100% be the case.

I doubt it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 18 Jun 2021 10:53

Pratyush wrote:^^^

Is it possible for AI to be programmed for satalite imagery analysis?

A response to this can be shared in the relevant thread.


Yes. And the programs are continuously getting better.

Israel's operation against Hamas was the world's first AI war
Having relied heavily on machine learning, the Israeli military is calling Operation Guardian of the Walls the first artificial-intelligence war.
“For the first time, artificial intelligence was a key component and power multiplier in fighting the enemy,” an IDF Intelligence Corps senior officer said. “This is a first-of-its-kind campaign for the IDF. We implemented new methods of operation and used technological developments that were a force multiplier for the entire IDF.”

In 11 days of fighting in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli military carried out intensive strikes against Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad targets. It targeted key infrastructure and personnel belonging to the two groups, the IDF said.
While the military relied on what was already available on the civilian market and adapted it for military purposes – in the years prior to the fighting – the IDF established an advanced AI technological platform that centralized all data on terrorist groups in the Gaza Strip onto one system that enabled the analysis and extraction of the intelligence.

Soldiers in Unit 8200, an Intelligence Corps elite unit, pioneered algorithms and code that led to several new programs called “Alchemist,” “Gospel” and “Depth of Wisdom,” which were developed and used during the fighting.
Collecting data using signal intelligence (SIGINT), visual intelligence (VISINT), human intelligence (HUMINT), geographical intelligence (GEOINT) and more, the IDF has mountains of raw data that must be combed through to find the key pieces necessary to carry out a strike.
“Gospel” used AI to generate recommendations for troops in the research division of Military Intelligence, which used them to produce quality targets and then passed them on to the IAF to strike.
“For the first time, a multidisciplinary center was created that produces hundreds of targets relevant to developments in the fighting, allowing the military to continue to fight as long as it needs to with more and more new targets,” the senior officer said.
While the IDF had gathered thousands of targets in the densely populated coastal enclave over the past two years, hundreds were gathered in real time, including missile launchers that were aimed at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
The military believes using AI helped shorten the length of the fighting, having been effective and quick in gathering targets using super-cognition.
The IDF carried out hundreds of strikes against Hamas and PIJ, including rocket launchers, rocket manufacturing, production and storage sites, military intelligence offices, drones, commanders’ residences and Hamas’s naval commando unit. Israel has destroyed most of the naval commando unit’s infrastructure and weaponry, including several autonomous GPS-guided submarines that can carry 30 kg. of explosives.
IDF Unit 9900’s satellites that have gathered GEOINT over the years. They were able to automatically detect changes in terrain in real time so that during the operation, the military was able to detect launching positions and hit them after firing.
For example, Unit 9900 troops using satellite imagery were able to detect 14 rocket launchers that were located next to a school
.
The IDF also killed more than 150 PIJ and Hamas operatives, many of them considered senior commanders or irreplaceable in their roles, especially those who led the research and development of the missile projects.
One strike, against senior Hamas operative Bassem Issa, was carried out with no civilian casualties despite being in a tunnel under a high-rise building surrounded by six schools and a medical clinic. Issa, a brigade commander for Gaza City, was the highest-ranking military figure in Hamas to be killed by Israel since Operation Protective Edge in 2014.
He was killed along with Hamas’s cyber and missile technology chief Jomaa Tahla, head of the development and projects department Jemal Zebda and 13 members of the faction’s weapons manufacturing unit.
Hamas’s underground “Metro” tunnel network was also heavily damaged over the course of several nights of airstrikes. Military sources said they were able to map the network, consisting of hundreds of kilometers under residential areas, to a degree where they knew almost everything about them.
The mapping of Hamas’s underground network was done by a massive intelligence-gathering process that was helped by the technological developments and use of Big Data to fuse all the intelligence. Once mapped, the IDF was able to have a full picture of the network both above and below ground with details, such as the depth of the tunnels, their thickness and the nature of the routes. With that, the military was able to construct an attack plan that was used during the operation.
While the IDF acknowledges that it has not destroyed the entire network, it says it has struck parts of the network that make it nearly impossible for Hamas to use again. And the ability of the IDF to crack Hamas’s network and completely map it removes one of the central dimensions of Hamas’s combat strategy.
Years of work, out-of-the-box thinking and the fusion of all the power of the intelligence division together with elements in the field led to the breakthrough solution of the underground,” the senior officer said.
Using the data gathered and analyzed through AI, the IAF was able to use the appropriate munitions to hit a target, whether an apartment, a tunnel or a building.
The IDF also used a system dubbed “Alchemist,” which was developed by Unit 8200 and used AI and machine learning to alert troops in the field to possible attacks by Hamas or PIJ. The dynamic and updating system was used by every unit commander in the field who had the system on a user-friendly tablet.
The military said the attack that killed St.-Sgt. Omer Tabib is being investigated. Troops had been alerted to the possibility of anti-tank fire targeting their jeeps outside the community of Netiv Ha’asara.
Tabib was the only soldier killed in the fighting.
The military also relied heavily on intelligence to carry out precision strikes in an attempt to minimize civilian casualties.
The Hamas-run Health Ministry in Gaza said at least 243 Palestinians were killed during the fighting, including 66 children and teens, with 1,910 people wounded.
The IDF said more than 100 operatives belonging to the terrorist groups were killed and that some of the civilian casualties were caused by Hamas rockets falling short or civilian homes collapsing after an airstrike on Hamas’s tunnel network.
In an interview with Channel 12, the head of the United Nations Palestinian refugee agency in Gaza, Matthias Schmale, acknowledged that while the “viciousness and ferocity of the strikes was heavily felt,” he had “the impression that there is a huge sophistication in the way the Israeli military struck.”



Americans are also using such programs for quite some time now.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 18 Jun 2021 11:23

Aditya_V wrote:But it will take some time for us to prepare these TEL's, do we delay our deterrent till be have perfect TEL , and I dont see us having the same terrain as Siberia and China to do the exact same thing as they are doing.

Best is what we are doing, work with what we have, deploy it and then look for better solutions.


We have decent and dense enough highway network which is only going to get better with Gadkari type of ministers. So the current TELs will be good enough for now.

Instead the military and DRDO should work upon using the standardised Commercial Container templates to camouflage your missiles apart from constructing a network of underground tunnels and depots for these TELAR cum missiles. Kindly note that underground Tunnels are not same as Silos which are comparatively much easily targetable. Also the SFC personnel manning these platforms should operate in civilian dresses. Today is the age of AI analyzed Pervasive surveillance and anything which stands out will be acquired and targeted. Pervasive surveillance on its own was a reality 15 years ago and now with growing capability and sophistication of AI programs and ever increasing Computing power, lethality has improved by orders of magnitude.
Last edited by darshhan on 18 Jun 2021 12:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 18 Jun 2021 11:34

Prem Kumar wrote:Yes, AI would actually be great at this kind of stuff - look for a certain pattern of truck amongst images. But the question is one of coverage & resolution. Does even Umrika have the space/air + human assets to continuously monitor all our highways, exit points etc and take real-time pictures for analysis? Especially if there is deception involved, which will 100% be the case.

I doubt it.


Use of AI means that you will relatively be much less dependent on humans to analyse the images and videos. Eventually lets say in 6-8 years only human intervention will be for giving the green signal for striking. Although even that can be automated. That is why AI will be the highest grade force multiplier.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ernest » 19 Jun 2021 23:16

I know someone who directly works with DRDO in the field of Satellite Image Analysis using Deep Learning. It is pretty mainstream now

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 22 Jun 2021 23:29

A short primer on aerodynamics of the hstdv.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jaysimha » 23 Jun 2021 12:53

Bharat Dynamics Limited
https://bdl-india.in/
About US>>E Book
https://bdl-india.in/sites/default/files/2021-04/E-Book.pdf
The E-Book launched, as a part of ‘Azadi Ka Amrut Mahotsav’, is an attempt to showcase BDL’s capabilities and efforts being made by the Company for building a resurgent Atmanirbhar Bharat.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 23 Jun 2021 21:33

Reports suggest, Agni1-Prime is slated to be tested early next week. Will be a 2 stage solid fueled missile with both stages having a composite rocket motor.
Lighter and more compact as compared to the existing Agni-1, while having the same or maybe slightly longer range.

The exact details will emerge once the missile is actually tested.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 24 Jun 2021 19:06

Nuclear capable subsonic cruise missile 'Nirbhay' successfully test-fired from ITR

Balasore, Jun 24 (UNI) India today test-fired its subsonic cruise nuclear-capable missile Nirbhay with a range of 1000-km from the Integrated Test Range(ITR) at Chandipur off Odisha coast.

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) sources said the missile was test-fired at around 1045 hrs from the launch complex of III of the ITR.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 24 Jun 2021 19:49

Great news. Hope the objectives were successfully met. We were waiting for ITCM in the last two years with Manik engine and this news has suddenly appeared. Or, is it ITCM?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 24 Jun 2021 20:19

Great news

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nikhil_Naya » 24 Jun 2021 21:01

Nikhil_Naya wrote:Dear Saars, Paanwala has been active of late. The indigenous micro turbofan engine has been tested at altitude for a 'full duration' run, with throttling. Being integrated with a 'test subject' and we should hear of a full-scale, full range test soon! Get the Mithais...


Ahem...Ahem...

Pratyush wrote:
Nikhil_Naya wrote:Dear Saars, Paanwala has been active of late. The indigenous micro turbofan engine has been tested at altitude for a 'full duration' run, with throttling. Being integrated with a 'test subject' and we should hear of a full-scale, full range test soon! Get the Mithais...


Hold on.

Let the flight to full distance take place.

Before we bring out lungi for lungi dance.



To shall we...Lungi Ko utha ke...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 24 Jun 2021 21:44

:twisted: Indeed. Full on lungi dance. :mrgreen:

I had forgotten about my earlier post. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby VickyAvinash » 25 Jun 2021 00:14

Congratulations to DRDO. Hope all parameters are met.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 25 Jun 2021 00:49

I could not find any announcement or press release from DRDO or MoD. Weird.

For test flight normal announcements have two typical components. 'Successful launch', and 'all parameters met'. The former itself does not guarantee the latter. I hope that the test was successful though.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nalla Baalu » 25 Jun 2021 08:00

Speculation from YouTube channel Defence Decode: Notam is valid from Jun 24-26. A potential multi-day multiple test article campaign. Public announcement may happen on 26th.

basant wrote:I could not find any announcement or press release from DRDO or MoD. Weird.

For test flight normal announcements have two typical components. 'Successful launch', and 'all parameters met'. The former itself does not guarantee the latter. I hope that the test was successful though.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Jun 2021 10:16

A congrats message was tweeted by CM Naveen Patnaik, no less!

https://twitter.com/Naveen_Odisha/status/1408071700755881992

Am surprised by Hemant Rout's silence though

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nikhil_Naya » 25 Jun 2021 19:03

From what I could get -
It was a success. Multiple waypoints navigation, all phases were done properly. There are some interesting tidbits - in terms of the Y Axis and 'S' curves! Accuracy is Brahmos level!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 25 Jun 2021 20:16

Nikhil_Naya wrote:From what I could get -
It was a success. Multiple waypoints navigation, all phases were done properly. There are some interesting tidbits - in terms of the Y Axis and 'S' curves! Accuracy is Brahmos level!

Saurav Jha just tweeted that there was no Nirbhay test 'the other day'.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nikhil_Naya » 25 Jun 2021 20:20

basant wrote:
Nikhil_Naya wrote:From what I could get -
It was a success. Multiple waypoints navigation, all phases were done properly. There are some interesting tidbits - in terms of the Y Axis and 'S' curves! Accuracy is Brahmos level!

Saurav Jha just tweeted that there was no Nirbhay test 'the other day'.


What's in a name?...hope you get the drift. And also where in any of my notes here have I used the name Nirbhay?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 25 Jun 2021 20:49

My bad. Forgot that this is defence. *sigh*

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2021 04:37

Nikhil_Naya wrote:From what I could get -
It was a success. Multiple waypoints navigation, all phases were done properly. There are some interesting tidbits - in terms of the Y Axis and 'S' curves! Accuracy is Brahmos level!


Great stuff Nikhil. And welcome back. :)

BTW was the local seeker used in the test?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2021 09:09

Some people say it is ITCM that is an all Indian missile.

And lots of people tweet stuff.
It is Ok.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Jun 2021 12:12

Taking liberty to include enhanced Grad MLRS in M[url][/url]issiles thread, so looks like the BM-21's have a new lease of life and hence the Pinaka regiments are capped at 12, till the extended range Pinaka's start getting inducted.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1730350

DRDO successfully test fires Enhanced Range 122mm Caliber Rocket


These rockets have been developed for Army applications and can destroy targets up to 40 km.

The rocket systems have been developed jointly by Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) with manufacturing support from M/s Economic Explosives Limited, Nagpur. This enhanced rocket system would replace the existing 122mm Grad rockets.


and Simultaneously 25 Enhanced Pinaka rockets were test fired.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1730350

DRDO successfully test fires Enhanced Pinaka Rocket


Twenty-five Enhanced Pinaka Rockets were launched in quick succession against targets at different ranges. All the mission objectives were met during the launches. The enhanced range version of Pinaka Rocket System can destroy targets at distances up to 45 kms.


So looks like Enhanced Grad for BM -21 and Enhanced Pinaka for Pinaka regiments

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 26 Jun 2021 13:12

Nikhil_Naya wrote:
basant wrote:Saurav Jha just tweeted that there was no Nirbhay test 'the other day'.


What's in a name?...hope you get the drift. And also where in any of my notes here have I used the name Nirbhay?


seems like Nirbhay name dropped ., its ITCM now

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 26 Jun 2021 13:50

It reminded me of B-05/K-15 saga. Can wait for more details. :)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Jun 2021 19:44

Enhanced Grad project has been going on for more than a decade at snails pace. Former com block countries have been pitching it since mid 2000s.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nikhil_Naya » 26 Jun 2021 19:47

Karan M wrote:
Nikhil_Naya wrote:From what I could get -
It was a success. Multiple waypoints navigation, all phases were done properly. There are some interesting tidbits - in terms of the Y Axis and 'S' curves! Accuracy is Brahmos level!


Great stuff Nikhil. And welcome back. :)

BTW was the local seeker used in the test?


Thank you Karan. While that is not very clear, most items in recent tests including the Rocket Arty, are 'Make In India'.

As for the Grad replacements - this rocket is Grad+ (better range, better propellants and improved accuracy). The reload time is also being reduced...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Suresh S » 27 Jun 2021 06:30

To my non military eyes successful test of Nirbhay missile recently is of immense significance. If India can develop a cruise missile with a range of 1500 miles it will put every part of China worth hitting including beijing and shanghai within range of these missiles from north east india.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Roop » 27 Jun 2021 09:14

What does "ITCM" stand for?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Jun 2021 09:25

Indigenous Technology Cruise Missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshan » 27 Jun 2021 09:43

May be, India To China Missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 28 Jun 2021 01:08

Suresh S wrote:To my non military eyes successful test of Nirbhay missile recently is of immense significance. If India can develop a cruise missile with a range of 1500 miles it will put every part of China worth hitting including beijing and shanghai within range of these missiles from north east india.


I have seen footage of testing of cruise missiles where they are followed by air force jets taking photos and filming it so question for the Gurus:
What are the chances a subsonic cruise missile will remain undetected and not be shot down through its flight of 1500 Miles or 1500 Kilometers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Jun 2021 01:28

Vips wrote:
Suresh S wrote:To my non military eyes successful test of Nirbhay missile recently is of immense significance. If India can develop a cruise missile with a range of 1500 miles it will put every part of China worth hitting including beijing and shanghai within range of these missiles from north east india.


I have seen footage of testing of cruise missiles where they are followed by air force jets taking photos and filming it so question for the Gurus:
What are the chances a subsonic cruise missile will remain undetected and not be shot down through its flight of 1500 Miles or 1500 Kilometers.

possible. but cruise missiles may have a low flight profile so detection is difficult. JMT.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 28 Jun 2021 01:41

ks_sachin wrote:
Vips wrote:What are the chances a subsonic cruise missile will remain undetected and not be shot down through its flight of 1500 Miles or 1500 Kilometers.

possible. but cruise missiles may have a low flight profile so detection is difficult. JMT.


also the newer versions have stealth built in; stealth materials as well as shaping., so even a subsonic missile will be survivable

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 28 Jun 2021 06:14

Vips wrote:
What are the chances a subsonic cruise missile will remain undetected and not be shot down through its flight of 1500 Miles or 1500 Kilometers.

kit wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:possible. but cruise missiles may have a low flight profile so detection is difficult. JMT.


also the newer versions have stealth built in; stealth materials as well as shaping., so even a subsonic missile will be survivable

While some will be detected and shot down, others will sneak past defenses to their targets. Works well in swarm mode — overwhelm air defenses.

In the conflicts that they have been used, they are fired in salvos to take out many high-value targets at the same time, especially during the opening phases.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 28 Jun 2021 09:06

Most of the long range cruise missile strikes (>1200/1500 Kms) have been by the Americans mostly in the Gulf where the enemy air defenses had been taken out. It would be interesting to see how many subsonic cruise missiles in a lo-lo flight profile would survive and hit targets against an enemy whose air force/air defence is not decimated or is functional.


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