Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Cybaru » 09 Jun 2021 01:44

That makes it a no-brainer to use Dhruv as the preferred ASW platform. Don't need to carry torps! Loiter and range can improve significantly.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby SNaik » 09 Jun 2021 16:14

Unidentified Russian military has commented in media on return of the Chakra to Russia. Allegedly, there was explosion of high-pressure air tank located between the two hulls last spring causing some damage to both inner and outer hull. Some repairs of the damage were done in India and the boat is going to Russia early due to this accident.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby ramana » 10 Jun 2021 07:29

Philip, Good post on SMART.
It's a game changer for LDW and West coast.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Roop » 10 Jun 2021 22:08

ramana wrote:Philip, Good post on SMART.
It's a game changer for LDW and West coast.


Agreed, but why just LDW and the West coast? In time of war, or impending war/high political tension, the PLAN and/or PN can be expected to cause trouble around Maldives, Sri Lanka (Hambantota) and Myanmar (Coco Island).

SMART-carrying platforms should be used to sanitize these areas.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby chola » 14 Jun 2021 13:17

Anyone else heard of these rumors on Project 18? This is supposed to be our cruiser (~10K tons.) Heard bits and pieces of P-18 and NGD for years. Feels like if there is smoke then maybe fire?

https://mobile.twitter.com/MI6GB/status/1395368303024029696
Status of Project 18 is pretty much unknown but as per some reports 6 ships are to be built under that project.

...

Project 18 is expected to cost north of $2bn per ship which means it won't probably go beyond 6 hulls.

...

Project 18 Class Destroyers will start entering service by late 2020's. So we can surely expect all 6 to be in service by mid 2030's.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 15 Jun 2021 05:25

chola wrote:Anyone else heard of these rumors on Project 18? This is supposed to be our cruiser (~10K tons.) Heard bits and pieces of P-18 and NGD for years. Feels like if there is smoke then maybe fire?

Lot of speculation nothing is confirmed and currently 10k cruisers don't grow on tree a new design is risky and expensive. So I highly doubt it, Imo more likely we will build stretched P-17a as the next DDG which will allow us to build them in MDL and GRSE (while using LM2500 gas turbines instead of zorya) and side by side with next iteration of P-17a.

So next decade we are looking at following in construction :

Stretched P-17 DDG
P-17b FFG
Talwar batch IV in GSL

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby srai » 15 Jun 2021 09:37

^^^
That $2billion per ship figure for a “cruiser” is unaffordable. For what purpose does the IN need such an expensive class of ships?

Past/Current order book shows the IN moving towards a DDG/FFG fleet comprising of
  • 10 x DDG —> 3 P15 + 3 P15A + 4 P15B
  • 10 x FFG (large) —> 3 P17 + 7 P17A
  • 10 x FFG (small) —> 3 Project 11356 + 3 + 4
————————
Total: 30 capital ships by 2035

Future surface fleet growth area will be on cheaper smaller ships like Corvettes (P-28 class) and various other specialists/auxiliary class of ships. There is also the 3rd large aircraft carrier IN dreaming about that will suck-in few billions.

Large chunk of the IN’s capital budget next two decades would need to be earmarked for the growth of submarine fleet: 6 P75I + 6 SSN + 2-4 SSBN + 12 SSK.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby LakshmanPST » 15 Jun 2021 12:28

srai wrote:^^^
Past/Current order book shows the IN moving towards a DDG/FFG fleet comprising of
  • 10 x DDG —> 3 P15 + 3 P15A + 4 P15B
  • 10 x FFG (large) —> 3 P17 + 7 P17A
  • 10 x FFG (small) —> 3 Project 11356 + 3 + 4
————————
Total: 30 capital ships by 2035


Is there any officially sanctioned strength or atleast minimum required no. of capital ships for Navy...? Similar to 24 Subs and 3 Aircraft Carriers...?
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 15 Jun 2021 13:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Maria » 15 Jun 2021 13:17

srai wrote:^^^
That $2billion per ship figure for a “cruiser” is unaffordable. For what purpose does the IN need such an expensive class of ships?

Past/Current order book shows the IN moving towards a DDG/FFG fleet comprising of
  • 10 x DDG —> 3 P15 + 3 P15A + 4 P15B
  • 10 x FFG (large) —> 3 P17 + 7 P17A
  • 10 x FFG (small) —> 3 Project 11356 + 3 + 4
————————
Total: 30 capital ships by 2035

Future surface fleet growth area will be on cheaper smaller ships like Corvettes (P-28 class) and various other specialists/auxiliary class of ships. There is also the 3rd large aircraft carrier IN dreaming about that will suck-in few billions.

Large chunk of the IN’s capital budget next two decades would need to be earmarked for the growth of submarine fleet: 6 P75I + 6 SSN + 2-4 SSBN + 12 SSK.


Just like the much discussed Vishal, the P-18s would be a 'pride' project as a pet desire of the Navy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby kit » 15 Jun 2021 13:40

IN definitely needs the P 18s., look at what the US Admiral is looking for in the new class of destroyers and why they need it to replace the Zumvalts

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/10/13/the-us-navy-is-eyeing-a-next-generation-destroyer-from-a-new-design/

“I don’t want to build a monstrosity. But I need deeper magazines on ships than I have right now,” the chief of naval operations said. “I’m limited with respect to DDG Flight IIIs in terms of what additional stuff we could put on those ships. … So the idea is to come up with the next destroyer, and that would be a new hull. The idea would be to put existing technologies on that hull and update and modernize those capabilities over time.”

The idea seems to the amount of firepower you can bring to bear on to a region., keep in mind all these ships have land attack capability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jun 2021 13:50

The Indian navy needs to grow in size in such a way that it can deal with the PRC in the absence of the United States in the 2040s. The current building program is insufficient to build such a fleet.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby srai » 15 Jun 2021 13:52

^^^
The IN share of the defense budget has been shrinking. They are being made to choose between their third aircraft carrier or 6 SSN. Capital Funds are limited.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby chola » 15 Jun 2021 14:34

Understand the budget issues but that aside, there is a need for a cruiser class, it won't be just a "pride" project:

1) Fleet defence which is the role of the US Tico class, we have nothing that can protect a CAG. It is basically every ship for itself when you only have 32 Barak 8 even on our latest P-15bs -- you would need multiple ships to match a Tico with over 100 VLS cells,

2) Larger more powerful missiles for roles like ABM, you need a cruiser class to fit missiles that can reach space,

3) Radar and surveillance fit, the bigger the vessel, the larger the radar and other instruments (and the power they required) can be placed.

Please read up on the 10K ton American Ticonderoga class cruisers. They form the key element in the CAG protecting an American carrier.

The chinis have launched 8 12K tons Type 055s with 8 more planned. They will serve like the Ticos in the chini CAG. And they are big enough to house ballistic missiles. https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/09/03/chinese-navy-cruisers-may-be-first-to-get-ballistic-missiles/amp/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby srai » 15 Jun 2021 18:55

^^^
P-15A/B have plenty of deck space for more Barak-8 if the IN deems it necessary. You don’t necessarily need a much larger ship for specialized AAW.

SSK, SSN and SSBN required with more immediacy over the next two decades.

Along with quantities of smaller specialist vessels for anti-submarine, anti-mine, maritime patrol, and coastal defense freeing up capital ships for power projection. Auxiliary ships for fleet support and sustainment to enhance reach and presence.

These will provide a more balanced fleet for the available budget.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby brar_w » 15 Jun 2021 19:06

chola wrote:Understand the budget issues but that aside, there is a need for a cruiser class, it won't be just a "pride" project:

1) Fleet defence which is the role of the US Tico class, we have nothing that can protect a CAG. It is basically every ship for itself when you only have 32 Barak 8 even on our latest P-15bs -- you would need multiple ships to match a Tico with over 100 VLS cells,

2) Larger more powerful missiles for roles like ABM, you need a cruiser class to fit missiles that can reach space,

3) Radar and surveillance fit, the bigger the vessel, the larger the radar and other instruments (and the power they required) can be placed.

Please read up on the 10K ton American Ticonderoga class cruisers. They form the key element in the CAG protecting an American carrier.

The chinis have launched 8 12K tons Type 055s with 8 more planned. They will serve like the Ticos in the chini CAG. And they are big enough to house ballistic missiles. https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/09/03/chinese-navy-cruisers-may-be-first-to-get-ballistic-missiles/amp/


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2503004#p2503004

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby chola » 15 Jun 2021 19:38

^^^ The Flight III AB DDGs are the same size as the Tico and P-18/NGD at 10K.

If the USN operations chief feels constrained by the Flight IIIs then what of our P-5A/B at 7.5K tons?

The P-17A is nearly the size of our current DDGs. It makes sense that our next DDGs would be much larger as well.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby srai » 15 Jun 2021 19:49

^^^
RN Type-45 AAW DDG are 7500t.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby brar_w » 15 Jun 2021 20:02

Its in the sweet spot. Configure a T-45 for a different threat environment (longer ranged starring phased arrays, larger diameter missiles, larger magazine and perhaps BMD) and you are looking at basically 9K-10K displacement vessel.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby ashthor » 16 Jun 2021 11:35

3-4 more orders should be given to MDL for continuing the Scorpenes and L&T should be given
Project 75I. In this way both the private and psu's can carry on.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 16 Jun 2021 18:53

chola wrote:Understand the budget issues but that aside, there is a need for a cruiser class, it won't be just a "pride" project:

Problem is we really don't have access to large design and entirely new design has risks associated with it. Delays in P-17 and P-28 could be attributed to the fact that both were new designs.

Naturally I believe we can use current design with tweaks for larger Barak-8 count. Using P-17a design one accommodate another 32-64 cell Barak-8 VLS amidship by lengthening it and 16 Brahmos cells can be fitted similar to P-15A/B.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Maria » 16 Jun 2021 21:34

John wrote:
chola wrote:Understand the budget issues but that aside, there is a need for a cruiser class, it won't be just a "pride" project:

Problem is we really don't have access to large design and entirely new design has risks associated with it. Delays in P-17 and P-28 could be attributed to the fact that both were new designs.

Naturally I believe we can use current design with tweaks for larger Barak-8 count. Using P-17a design one accommodate another 32-64 cell Barak-8 VLS amidship by lengthening it and 16 Brahmos cells can be fitted similar to P-15A/B.


Many of the newer designs are just stretched versions of an old design. For instance the P-17s are a stretch on the Ruskie Talwar classes right?

Would it be incorrect for me to assume that a P-18 would be possibly a beefed up P-15B?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby hnair » 16 Jun 2021 22:10

P17 lineage seem to be a nod to western design aspects for a frigate. Fincantieri was a consultant for modular construction and LM2500 was used as power plant unlike the Kirvak ones.

Link

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 16 Jun 2021 23:28

Maria wrote:Many of the newer designs are just stretched versions of an old design. For instance the P-17s are a stretch on the Ruskie Talwar classes right?

No P-17 have very little in common with Talwar other than Severnoye providing input as did DCN which I believe contributed more.

Maria wrote:Would it be incorrect for me to assume that a P-18 would be possibly a beefed up P-15B?

Main thing would be P-15b use of Zorya Gas turbines where as P-17s CODOG arrangement with LM2500 is better option. Also P-17a already achieves a flushed deck so need to reinvent the wheel with trying the same in a modified P-15b.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby chetak » 17 Jun 2021 01:34

hnair wrote:P17 lineage seem to be a nod to western design aspects for a frigate. Fincantieri was a consultant for modular construction and LM2500 was used as power plant unlike the Kirvak ones.

Link


the hulls have also been quietened.

self noise was a big problem with the older hulls affecting sonar ops

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby ramana » 17 Jun 2021 07:28

Goa Shipyard 14M patrol Boat specs:

14Meter Patrol boat

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Maria » 18 Jun 2021 20:42

ramana wrote:Goa Shipyard 14M patrol Boat specs:

14Meter Patrol boat


Are these the boars going to the Pangong Tso?
Last edited by Rakesh on 21 Jun 2021 22:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please do NOT requote images when replying. Post Edited.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby jaysimha » 18 Jun 2021 22:45

Ministry of Defence
KEEL LAYING FOR SECOND FRIGATE OF P11356 PROJECT AT GOA SHIPYARD LIMITED
Posted On: 18 JUN 2021 8:40PM by PIB Delhi

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1728343
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby jamwal » 19 Jun 2021 21:37

Are cruisers are better than destroyers for our needs in anyway?
China has just one ship of this class, US and Russia have stopped inducting any ship of this class since long. Indian Navy needs to arm its existing ships better before thinking about a 10t destroyer /cruiser which will cost more than 2 Kolkata types.

BTW, it is not a good idea to post tweets from random accounts here. Majority of these people are just hyperactive fanbois who keep on posting bullshit just to gain more eyeballs and followers.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 19 Jun 2021 21:59

The same people pushing this theories where the same ones who were claiming P-17a will be based on admiral gorshkov class frigates or we will be building our own Aegis destroyers. Lot of fantasy.

11356 will fill the need for cheap vessels to counter 054a FFGs and on paper they are superior and cheaper.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Pratyush » 20 Jun 2021 09:43

John wrote:The same people pushing this theories where the same ones who were claiming P-17a will be based on admiral gorshkov class frigates or we will be building our own Aegis destroyers. Lot of fantasy.

11356 will fill the need for cheap vessels to counter 054a FFGs and on paper they are superior and cheaper.



Are these ships going to be cheaper than base model p17 when adjusted for inflation?

I don't know. But the ship's will be inferior to Chinese frigates being built for TSPN. which will be on par with the p 17b.

On top of this these ships hese ships will be in service for the next 40 years. For MLU there is no assurance that they can be fitted with Indian systems.

What is the plan for the MLU of the talwar class ships. They should be approaching it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby John » 20 Jun 2021 17:46

Pratyush wrote:Are these ships going to be cheaper than base model p17 when adjusted for inflation?

I was proponent of building more P-17s instead but we wanted to give something to keep Putin happy this deal is pure $$ for Russian oligarchy (as they get $$ for two vessels and $$ to transfer tech for 2 more) . Something is better than nothing I suppose.

Anyway to build them in GSL it costs about 13k crore for 2 11356 Frigates but I am hoping that includes cost to update the SY to build larger vessels and real cost is lower. So if we can mass build 11356 around 500-600 million $ each (wishful thinking maybe) that will be lower than P-17 which cost around 600 million (decade ago but cost escalated due to various delays).

IMO to build P-17s now using Shtil instead of MF STAR + Barak-8 will cost around 700 million still cheaper than P-17A but 11356 could out come to be cheaper. Perhaps also the larger size of P-17 will require further spending on GSL.

That said P-17s are still far more capable.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby jamwal » 21 Jun 2021 12:18

chola wrote:Understand the budget issues but that aside, there is a need for a cruiser class, it won't be just a "pride" project:

1) Fleet defence which is the role of the US Tico class, we have nothing that can protect a CAG. It is basically every ship for itself when you only have 32 Barak 8 even on our latest P-15bs -- you would need multiple ships to match a Tico with over 100 VLS cells,

2) Larger more powerful missiles for roles like ABM, you need a cruiser class to fit missiles that can reach space,

3) Radar and surveillance fit, the bigger the vessel, the larger the radar and other instruments (and the power they required) can be placed.

Please read up on the 10K ton American Ticonderoga class cruisers. They form the key element in the CAG protecting an American carrier.

The chinis have launched 8 12K tons Type 055s with 8 more planned. They will serve like the Ticos in the chini CAG. And they are big enough to house ballistic missiles. https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/09/03/chinese-navy-cruisers-may-be-first-to-get-ballistic-missiles/amp/



There is only 1 Type 055 in service not 8, Nanchang launched in 2020. A lot of stuff about capabilities of these ships is just hot air and speculations lifted from fanboi forums.
http://jjamwal.in/yayavar/chinese-armed ... rt-6-navy/

Ticonderoga class is on its way out and no new similar replacements are in sight.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby mody » 21 Jun 2021 18:24

mody wrote:Over the next 5 years, can we replace the MF-STAR radar and LRSAM with NG-AKASH missiles and an indigenous AESA radar? I suppose it should be possible.
We should plan for a follow on order for additional 5 nos of P17A frigates, perhaps P17B, albeit with much greater indigenous content. I would hope for the following:

Raw material to be sourced from India as it already is being done. For the weapons and sensor suite:

1). 76mm SRGM from BHEL. BHEL has upgraded the basic variant and it now has a longer range. The BAE 127mm Mk-45 gun is just too expensive.
2). Brahmos, in 8 VLS tubes.
3). Nirbhay or LRLACM, 8 missiles. The VLS tubes misght even be able to accommodate Brahmos-NG missiles, if the mission calls for a greater anti-ship role.
4). RBU-6000, produced under license
5). NG-AKASH VLS, 32 missiles
6). VL-SRSAM, 16-32 missiles
7). Indian replacement for MF-STAR, would be used by both the NG-AKASH and VL_SRSAM
8). Two AK-630 mounts, manufactured under license, with indigenous fire control radar
9). Varunastra torpedoes, two tubes each for port and starboard side.
10). HUMSA-NG sonar suite
11). ALTAS indigenous towed active array sonar (hopefully would be ready by then)
12). 1 Helicopter, can be the ALH-MKIII-Naval to be begin with, to be replaced by indigenous N-IMRH, when ready
13). EW suite, BEL Ajanta or follow on of the same, plus Kavach/Mareech decoy systems

Propulsion, same as the P-17A frigates, suitable diesel engine either the existing one from MAN or any other suitable alternative, along with 2 GE-LM2500 turbines. All are manufactured in India.


Building more P71As with largely indigenous/made in India weapons and sensor suite, as per above, would be a much better option. P17As are currently being built at the fairly quick rate, the fastest build time for this sized vessels in India. Ordering another 5 or more of this class would make maximum sense.
The most expesive parts of the P17A are the Mk-45 Naval Gun from the US, the MFSTAR Radar and the LRSAMs. We can use the new upgraded 76mm SRGM made by BHEL in place of the 5" Mk-45 guns. We would need indian alternatives for the MFSTAR radar and the LRSAMs.
Even if we decide to place the order today, we would need these systems after about 4-5 years for the follow on ships. That's a long enough time to come with our own alternatives.
The same radar and SAM combo can also be used on the smaller Talwar class type frigates, which we can build as a follow on order after the 2+2 order of Russian import and GSL build. Not building a follow on indigenous version after GSL acquires the knowhow and technology for building this class ships would be a waste.

The P17s are anyways light destroyers. They are bigger than the out going Rajput class and with LRSAM type missile, have the area defense capability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby chola » 21 Jun 2021 19:03

jamwal wrote:
chola wrote:Understand the budget issues but that aside, there is a need for a cruiser class, it won't be just a "pride" project:

1) Fleet defence which is the role of the US Tico class, we have nothing that can protect a CAG. It is basically every ship for itself when you only have 32 Barak 8 even on our latest P-15bs -- you would need multiple ships to match a Tico with over 100 VLS cells,

2) Larger more powerful missiles for roles like ABM, you need a cruiser class to fit missiles that can reach space,

3) Radar and surveillance fit, the bigger the vessel, the larger the radar and other instruments (and the power they required) can be placed.

Please read up on the 10K ton American Ticonderoga class cruisers. They form the key element in the CAG protecting an American carrier.

The chinis have launched 8 12K tons Type 055s with 8 more planned. They will serve like the Ticos in the chini CAG. And they are big enough to house ballistic missiles. https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/09/03/chinese-navy-cruisers-may-be-first-to-get-ballistic-missiles/amp/



There is only 1 Type 055 in service not 8, Nanchang launched in 2020. A lot of stuff about capabilities of these ships is just hot air and speculations lifted from fanboi forums.
http://jjamwal.in/yayavar/chinese-armed ... rt-6-navy/

Ticonderoga class is on its way out and no new similar replacements are in sight.


As I said, there are 8 already launched and 8 planned. All eight 055 launches had been documented. So unless they decide not to induct the ones already in water, there will be at least 8 in the PLAN in the coming years. Whether their systems is all hot air does not change the fact that they built them or that other countries have built surface combatants of this size too.

The Arleigh Burke Flight III are 10K tons. Both Type 055 and the AB Flight III are called destroyers not cruisers but so what? In fact, it is the USNI which classifies the Type 055 as a cruiser despite the chini classification as a DDG. It -- and the Sejeong and the Atago -- are all 10k DDGs with 100 plus VLS cells that can be classified as cruisers.

Pretty much all the major naval powers in the Indo-Pacific are still building warships of this size so why wouldn't India? With the persistent rumors why is it so hard to entertain theories that India has begun or at least is in the midst of planning Project 18?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby SNaik » 21 Jun 2021 20:51

chola wrote:
As I said, there are 8 already launched and 8 planned. All eight 055 launches had been documented. So unless they decide not to induct the ones already in water, there will be at least 8 in the PLAN in the coming years. Whether their systems is all hot air does not change the fact that they built them or that other countries have built surface combatants of this size too.

The Arleigh Burke Flight III are 10K tons. Both Type 055 and the AB Flight III are called destroyers not cruisers but so what? In fact, it is the USNI which classifies the Type 055 as a cruiser despite the chini classification as a DDG. It -- and the Sejeong and the Atago -- are all 10k DDGs with 100 plus VLS cells that can be classified as cruisers.

Pretty much all the major naval powers in the Indo-Pacific are still building warships of this size so why wouldn't India? With the persistent rumors why is it so hard to entertain theories that India has begun or at least is in the midst of planning Project 18?


There are 3 of 055 already in service - 101, 102 and 105.

In fact, even Zumwalt at 15000 tons and Hyuga/Izumo at over 25000 tons are still called destroyers. Reminds me of Soviets, who called their CVs whatever cruiser, just not CV :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby brar_w » 21 Jun 2021 21:20

It doesn't matter what they are called as long as they have the capability to slot into those roles if required. The next US Navy combatant will likely be a 12K ton vessel which is being called a DDG (DDG(X) in line with the 10K ton class Flight III Burke, and the 15K ton class Zumwalt. The Flight III DDG-51, even though a replacement for early Flight I and II DDG-51s, is more capable than the Ticos for their mission. If you de-tasked the Flight III's from BMD or land attack, allowing it focus solely on air-defense (more like a cruiser), its magazine with higher quality interceptors, higher quality sensors and AEGIS baseline will probably more than compensate for the smaller number of cells relative to a Tico. So it is really a matter of what sort of mutli-role vessels you want to field given that Frigates are now approaching destroyer level of displacement and destroyers well into displacement numbers of past cruisers. Larger displacement vessels allow for larger sensors that can handle larger number of targets, see further, and have better discrimination. This is true if you want true IAMD. In fact even though the Flight III Burke upgrades to a 14 ft radar (compared to a smaller SPY-1) the original sensor trade studies pointed to a need for an 18 ft S-band radar for optimal IAMD (which a heavier burke could not support) so there are requirement pressures that have forced these displacement numbers (the 14 SPY-6 is very much a compromise because that's the largest they could get on the Burke).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jun 2021 22:38

jamwal wrote:There is only 1 Type 055 in service not 8, Nanchang launched in 2020. A lot of stuff about capabilities of these ships is just hot air and speculations lifted from fanboi forums.
http://jjamwal.in/yayavar/chinese-armed ... rt-6-navy/

Ticonderoga class is on its way out and no new similar replacements are in sight.

Please do not say illogical things like the "....capabilities of these ships is just hot air and speculations lifted from fanboi forums."

You will hurt the sentiments of the Alliance with Amreeka and CATOBAR will bring Salvation crowd on BRF.

I have recently read on their fanboi forums that they have lasers with homing devices, that change direction mid flight and at light speed. We SDREs can only watch with amazement while we swing from banana trees. And if you do not believe it, you are fake news Sirjee :)

BTW, heaven forbid, if by some weird twist of fate....the Indian Naval Air Arm ends up with the Rafale M for its future carrier borne combat aircraft. I personally do not see that naval contest ever reaching fruition (the numbers have dwindled from 57 to 36 and then to 35), but you never know. But if the Rafale M does come....the rona-dhona, asthma attacks and whining you will witness on BRF will be eye opening.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jun 2021 22:39

brar_w wrote:It doesn't matter what they are called as long as they have the capability to slot into those roles if required.

Thank you for the above. Post after post over mindless nomenclature.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby brar_w » 21 Jun 2021 23:26

The Cruiser purists point to the past distinction of a proper "cruiser" having the combat system coordination and command and control element embedded in it (space, personnel and other things) compared to similarly sized or smaller "destroyers" having that space reserved for other systems that help the vessel perform more independent operations if required. On the US vessels, Tico's have that AEGIS C2 planning space and equipment for example that allows it to command and control AAW and fleet protection while the DDG-51's don't have that space reserved on them. But that distinction is very much self imposed as you could reconfigure destroyers and make them less multi-mission/independent-ops driven and more in line with the traditional Tico roles if you wanted. For example, the Zumwalt, a destroyer, is not an AEGIS ship, but still has a larger C2 planning element than the Tico - which is now to be used for command and control of unmanned surface and sub-surface capabilities. So at the end of the day, the modern day nomenclature around destroyer or cruiser is very much a bureaucratic or political decision (Japan calls a light carrier a destroyer). What's more important is the ability of the Combat system, guided missile loadout, and sensors to do the mission. These are basically all multi-mission surface combatants with their displacement driven by which role they are optimized for, and the magazine demands. You can see that when you contrast something like the Type-45 to the Burke III - the latter being heavier because of the burden of larger sensors and weapons to support area IAMD while the former's AD capability is primarily for AAW which is less taxing on displacement and mission systems.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Postby Barath » 22 Jun 2021 10:54

It is often said that the Nilgiri class, INS Nilgiri(commissioned 1972) was Independent India's first indigenously built warship.

However, the Indian Navy's own website , along with GoI press release quoting Admiral Karambir Singh, or Garden reach website and other articles, eg SundayGuardian, Outlook article give the credit to INS Ajay in 1961

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/present-state

"INS Ajay was the first indigenously built ship, delivered by Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata in 1961, followed by construction of ‘Giri’ Class frigates. "

Not much info is available on INS Ajay (1961) online. Does anyone have additional info/ Can anyone find out more ?


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