Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Oct 2021 11:19

Which IAF officer has talked about IAF needing/wanting ORCA on record? I am unaware of it. The IAF chief has talked about IAF procuring the Mk2 on the other hand. ORCA like I said, is just a vague idea right now. Since ADA is going to be working on TEDBF they obviously suggested that an air-force version is possible if the IAF wants. But that's about the extent of it AFAIK. Meanwhile the Mk2 is in CDR phase with the first prototype rollout expected late next year. Even if that gets delayed to 2023 due to covid or whatever the program is much much farther along than either TEDBF or ORCA and has funding already approved for it. It will take many years for the first TEDBF prototype to appear and still more for ORCA if it even gets funded. The Navy needs the TEDBF because there is no naval AMCA and the F-35 is not available. Why would the IAF need it if it is going to be available only a few years before the AMCA if that?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2021 11:53

I think that people are reading too much in the new IAF chief not talking about the MWF as the mainstay fighter of the IAF for the future.

But I think that it's not really a big deal. If you consider the various near term procurement programs of the IAF. The MWF will fit the single engine program well
As well as the MRFA program as well.

In light of the above it makes no sense for the IAF chief to refer to the MWF as a seperate program.

Note that the while the above mentioned programs might be programs of record. The MWF is the only one with a clearly defined budget along with time in service.
The rest are just hot air.

So I am quite chilled out about the future of the program.

Having said that, I am not happy with people's justification for the procurement of the program as a necessary stepping stone for AMCA.

I reagard the two as seperate with low technology convergence.

I also think that the MWF is not really going to help us with the production of AMCA. As much as learning to run a several dozen a year Tejas line will. In terms of managing a domestic eco-system. Unless the mk2 reaches a several dozen a year it will not really help with production of AMCA.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 28 Oct 2021 14:35

Manish_Sharma wrote:Tejas Mk2: The Pride & Future of Indian Air Force
https://airpowerasia.com/2021/10/27/tej ... air-force/
27 October 2021

By Udit Tripathi

How credible is the article? It says RCS of Mk2 in the range of 0.1-0.2 M2. That will be lower than Rafale (0.5-2). This would indeed be even better than J20. If that is the case, what advantage does J20 have over Mk2. We're as good as J20 + even better (more hardpoints/droptanks) with even Mk2.

That should be the reason we should operationalise, accelerate development/scale production of Mk2.

If Above numbers are correct - then RCS of Mk1 should also be close. That should also make Mk1 a very stealth bird. Its a noob pooch but other than stealth is there any thing else J20 brings to the field ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 28 Oct 2021 15:34

Why are you surprised that single engine TejasMk2 a current fighter is more stealthy than 80s Geriatric Rafale?

The lesser said of j20 the better which was easily visible to Su 30MKI according to ex-Chief Dhanoa.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2021 16:15

The RCS could also be a reflection of the size of the airframe. A smaller non stealthy airframe built with composite materials should have lower radar cross section. As compared to a larger non stealthy airframe built with composite materials.

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Oct 2021 17:09

Manish_Sharma wrote:Why are you surprised that single engine TejasMk2 a current fighter is more stealthy than 80s Geriatric Rafale?

The lesser said of j20 the better which was easily visible to Su 30MKI according to ex-Chief Dhanoa.

Keep in mind stealth aircraft can use luneberg reflectors to mask their actual rcs

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Oct 2021 17:16

But the Problem is an operational configuration, Pylons, Weapons, drop tanks will reflect radar waves,

I guess we should find out

1) What is the RCS with just A2A missiles and Pylons

2) What is it with A2A missiles, Pylons and supersonic drop tanks

3) What is it with 2 ccm, drop Tanks and with PGM for strike missions, may SAAW, Some of the modern PGM's can be given RAM coating

None of the above configs will be anywhere near 5gen stealth level but as long RCS is small enough that Radar detection range for enemy radars is kept as low as possible.

4) I guess when it moves to using Iron bombs it will reflect heavily but at that point, it will be with fighter escort enemy air defense should have been suppressed sufficiently.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Oct 2021 20:18

Pratyush wrote:The RCS could also be a reflection of the size of the airframe. A smaller non stealthy airframe built with composite materials should have lower radar cross section. As compared to a larger non stealthy airframe built with composite materials.

Correct. However the radar power can play the role of the equalizer, if the bigger aircraft carries a more powerful radar.

But in addition to the smaller RCS, many Pilots in their interviews (on sites like Hush-kit) have pointed out how difficult it is visually acquire the smaller Hawks, Jags, F-16s after the merge and how they are dog-fighting beasts, necessitating development of off-boresight HMCS, thrust vectoring etc.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 28 Oct 2021 20:36

nachiket wrote:Which IAF officer has talked about IAF needing/wanting ORCA on record? I am unaware of it. The IAF chief has talked about IAF procuring the Mk2 on the other hand. ORCA like I said, is just a vague idea right now. Since ADA is going to be working on TEDBF they obviously suggested that an air-force version is possible if the IAF wants. But that's about the extent of it AFAIK. Meanwhile the Mk2 is in CDR phase with the first prototype rollout expected late next year. Even if that gets delayed to 2023 due to covid or whatever the program is much much farther along than either TEDBF or ORCA and has funding already approved for it. It will take many years for the first TEDBF prototype to appear and still more for ORCA if it even gets funded. The Navy needs the TEDBF because there is no naval AMCA and the F-35 is not available. Why would the IAF need it if it is going to be available only a few years before the AMCA if that?

Its just a matter of time before air force realizes that 5th gen fighters are white elephants that require lot more maintenance than the 4.5 gen fighters, also they cost more to acquire(even after building them in India).
10 years down the line china will be breathing even harder on our borders and the only way to stop them when they cross the border will be to have at least 55 squadrons. We cannot have that number with AMCA, Mk2 and/or MMRCA 2.0. We would need ORCA.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Oct 2021 20:46

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 53952?s=20 ---> Tejas MK2 is crucial.

- not only coz its operationally needed but technologically it will pave a solid foundation and bring maturity in supplier base.
- if you ask me AMCA isn't possible without consolidation of technology developed.

Pic Credit: ANI

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 31 Oct 2021 00:33

The new IAF CAS making almost nil mention of the LCA MK.2 but never letting an opportunity go to say they are getting 114 MRFA says it all. 114 MRFA (Rafale) is >$20BN at least, IAF doesn't have the money to buy them and 200 LCA MK.2 so they've implicitly made the choice to go for their foreign toys.

If you think the senior leadership of IAF failing to mention the LCA MK.2 when discussing their future force plans isn't significant then I'm afraid I have bad news for you.

And be under no illusion they'll play the exact same game with AMCA- once they've got their 114 MRFA suddenly there won't be money for AMCA or they'll complain about the AMCA being deficient and a next generation combat aircraft tender will be announced. Rinse and repeat.

LCA MK.2 is all but dead at this point. Maybe a token order of 2 squadrons will be made in the mid-2030s just like the IA did with Arjun but they certainly aren't going for the 201 units many here were celebrating when it was mentioned a few years back. After that mention the numbers have been coming down with every new CAS and now they don't even feel the need to mention the existence of the LCA MK.2.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Oct 2021 08:12

If the IAF leadership is thinking in those terms then we should start learning Mandarin. Because we are going to get defeated in any war the PRC decides to fight against us in 2035 and beyond.

A surrender now will get us better terms. Compared to what we can achieve after a crushing defeat from PRC.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 31 Oct 2021 08:58

This year itself the 'Imported Air Force' is down by 4 jets -- 3 Mig 21s and 1 Mirage... with no prospects of replacing those losses immediately. We are practically going to be fighting the Chinese "with what we have" !!

When you watch the Chinese military propaganda videos, the first thing that strikes you is that each and every piece of equipment they use, is made by them. Whereas in our videos majority of the equipment is imported.

RishiChatterjee · Post by **RishiChatterjee** » 31 Oct 2021 10:07

KSingh wrote:The new IAF CAS making almost nil mention of the LCA MK.2 but never letting an opportunity go to say they are getting 114 MRFA says it all. 114 MRFA (Rafale) is >$20BN at least, IAF doesn't have the money to buy them and 200 LCA MK.2 so they've implicitly made the choice to go for their foreign toys.

It's a pressure tactics more likely... Keep mentioning it to media so that the govt finds it harder to scrap, or simply get surplus 2nd hand Mirage-2000s from France instead.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 31 Oct 2021 12:15

Pratyush wrote:The RCS could also be a reflection of the size of the airframe. A smaller non stealthy airframe built with composite materials should have lower radar cross section. As compared to a larger non stealthy airframe built with composite materials.

Depends on the radar band and the dielectric characteristics of the composites themselves. The composites MIGHT be less reflective in say, X-band, but if they end up being permeable to L, C, (surveillance radars) or Ku band (missile seekers), that might actually result in a much larger RCS because those waves will go right through the skin and reflect off the internal metal components such as the engine compressor blades or other metal structures.

Of course, I first heard about this from DRDO Scientists in IRSI-07, so this is a consideration that they're obviously well-aware of.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Oct 2021 12:33

Mk2 is not going anywhere. If we don't have money to buy 124 Rafale costing 150M each, would IAF have the money to buy 250 AMCA costing 150M each?

That too with a 1 ton internal load out? The same problem will apply when Su30 needs to be replaced. How can you replace a jet costing 65M with 6.5 tonne loadout with 150M with 1 ton internal weapons?

This is why MK2 coming in at 70M and TEDBF at 80-90M will simply win the economy war.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 31 Oct 2021 14:16

Please don't forget indian precision weapons coming in to help win the economy war. Current imported precision weapons are very expensive and hinder democratization of use..

kit · Post by **kit** » 31 Oct 2021 18:20

nam wrote:Mk2 is not going anywhere. If we don't have money to buy 124 Rafale costing 150M each, would IAF have the money to buy 250 AMCA costing 150M each?

This is why MK2 coming in at 70M and TEDBF at 80-90M will simply win the economy war.

There was a post detailing how each crore spend in the country generates jobs, infrastructure, and expertise well into 3 to 4 times that much., one thousand crores spend in the country generates more than four thousand crores to the economy by way of employment, infrastructure facilities, tax and revenue generation and most importantly expertise inhouse that serve as steppingstones to further improvements, products, and supplier base.

Import something ? maybe a tad bit cheaper. Zero addition to economy.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 31 Oct 2021 20:09

No mention of LCA Mk2 by the IAF again ...

IAF Chief VR Chaudhari interview

CAS: IAF has at present deliberate for 83 LCA, 70 HTT-40, two Sqns of AMCA Mk-I and 5 Sqns of AMCA MK-II. Additionally, the order for LCH and different developments within the helicopter fleet will present for 400/450 plane.

CAS: IAF has deliberate for a gradual build-up of its fighter fleet over the approaching 20 years. This contains 83 LCA MK1A, 12 Su-30 MKI, 21 Mig 29s, 114 MRFA, and the seven Squadrons of AMCA. The plan caters to a drive construct up together with filling of gaps when older sorts and squadrons are phased out.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Oct 2021 20:37

Neither mention of their previous Plan A planes. Btw hvtiaf went silent after he boldly asked about MK2. Btw chiefs come and go, LCA MK2 will come. If needed GOI should not shy away from showing these people the door.

It would be stupid not to go for more Rafale, after paying billions in infra and India specific updates. It will make the next 36 way cheaper.
rgds

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 31 Oct 2021 20:47

nam wrote:Mk2 is not going anywhere. If we don't have money to buy 124 Rafale costing 150M each, would IAF have the money to buy 250 AMCA costing 150M each?

That too with a 1 ton internal load out? The same problem will apply when Su30 needs to be replaced. How can you replace a jet costing 65M with 6.5 tonne loadout with 150M with 1 ton internal weapons?

This is why MK2 coming in at 70M and TEDBF at 80-90M will simply win the economy war.

Who said anything about 250 AMCA? IAF has only mentioned ~120 of them.

The new CAS has openly said they’ve basically given up trying to get 42 squadrons and will settle at 35 by the mid 2030s.

Now this man and his entire senior staff’s job is to meet the sanctioned squadron strength set out by their civilian leadership but the fact is he is happy to proclaim it’s not happening nor are they making any plans to do so.

It’s quite clear the only way they get to 42 squadrons is through large numbers of LCA MK.2, if you go for large numbers of Rafale you limit yourself to 33-35 squadrons. Now which scenario has the new CAS outlined repeatedly in his public comments?

IAF has cast LCA MK.2 in the bin because it threatens their 30 year long lust for 100+ MMRCAs.

It is not an accident that the one type the CAS consistently omits from his public comments is the LCA MK.2. He has even mentioned the ‘emergency’ procurements of SU-30MKIs and MiG-29s but refuses to even utter LCA MK.2.

This is going the LCH/LUH/Arjun way very fast. It’ll be ready, may even get into limited production but no order commitments will be given.

I agree with the above, with this mindset may as well start talking to China now about the terms of a surrender. PLAAF today is inducting close to 100 fighters a year, IAF via MRFA is projecting 14/year post 2030.

Just to get their gold plated foreign toys they’ve resigned themselves to inadequacy.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 31 Oct 2021 20:58

Well he did talk about 114 MRFA and Mk2 is a MWF

, he knows he will not get 114 Rafale maybe 36 more. Besides all the Air Chief's before him talked about "114 MRFA" but nothing came out of it, so be patient and we will get Mk2

. If we get another 36 Rafale as the rumors go, they are getting 72 MRFA out of 114.

Besides in a different interview he said ..

Tejas Mk2 has been the talk of the town recently when the new IAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari stated recently that 7 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 are projected for induction in the coming years while discussing the future roadmap of the Indian Air Force’s modernization plan. This is an important announcement not only towards the significant capability enhancement of IAF but a move closer to the Atmanirbhar Bharat campaign.

In this he says ....

Manish Okay Jha: What is present standing of IAF’s plan for 114 fighter jets beneath MMRCA/MRFA 2.0? Do you see this as a large alternative to construct up world class defence and aerospace industrial ecosystem that would, actually, be the important thing financial drivers for development?

CAS: IAF plans to induct 114 MRFA in phased method for which Qualitative Requirements are being finalised. The program can be progressed beneath ‘Make in India’ initiative of DAP-2020 specializing in switch of key applied sciences to Indian Production Partners. This as a significant alternative for partnership between the private and non-private sectors, each in design, improvement and manufacturing subsequently.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Oct 2021 21:02

There is a video on this thread where the chief refers to MK2.

We can only hope. IAF is the one going to fight the war. They don't want to get cheaper options, nothing we can do. Only GoI can force them.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 31 Oct 2021 21:03

IAF chief is not talking of Tejas mk2 but saying total fighter squadron strength of 35 sq. To take that to 42 sq , 7 sq Tejas mk2 is required. They are initially wanting to allot the money for 114 nos additional Rafales as MRFA. As Tejas mk2 will be online Indian economy will be bigger and more money will be allocated for Tejas mk2.
12 Rafales per year will require $2.5 b per year and additional 24 Tejas mk2 per year will require $2 b per year.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 31 Oct 2021 21:10

sankum wrote:IAF chief is not talking of Tejas mk2 but saying total fighter squadron strength of 35 sq. To take that to 42 sq , 7 sq Tejas mk2 is required. They are initially wanting to allot the money for 114 nos additional Rafales as MRFA. As Tejas mk2 will be online Indian economy will be bigger and more money will be allocated for Tejas mk2.
12 Rafales per year will require $2.5 b per year and additional 24 Tejas mk2 per year will require $2 b per year.

Exactly this.

IAF CAS concedes 35 squadrons by mid-2030s is all they will have

6 LCA MK1/1A
15 SU-30MKI
6 AMCA
8 Rafale/MRFA

That gives their projection of 35

0 space for LCA MK.2 by the IAF’s own calculations. They aren’t bluffing, this is clearly their internal future force structure.

IF IAF CAS said we will reach our 42 squadron sanctioned strength in the next decade then its clear the LCA MK.2 would be in play but he hasn’t said that and he’s only mentioned 35 squadrons repeatedly.

LCA MK.2 *may* get token orders like they give to LCH, Arjun etc maybe 1-3 squadrons but nothing like the 6-8 we had been expecting.

MRFA has killed MWF/LCA MK.2 it’s quite obvious. Why consistently is this new CAS failing to mention it otherwise? He never fails to mention the MRFA.

astal · Post by **astal** » 31 Oct 2021 22:39

Let’s look at this from a strategic choice perspective.

If the IAF chief talks a lot about MWF/Tejas Mk2, vendors will lose interest in MRFA. MRFA is simply a higher priority for the ACM in the present scheme of things. Ideally for IAF MRFA contract should have happened a long time ago and cannot come too soon. So he appears to be focused on MRFA. He will try to get 114 aircraft, but given the budget limitations will settle on whatever he can get. MRFA2 will be this chiefs legacy if a contract happens within his tenure.

IAF and HAL will start working on the contract for MWF, 5 years before the end of MK1A production.. That is about 2024. The air chief does not need to talk about it. There is no getting past MWF. It is tailor made to compliment the AMCA and increase squadron strength at a reasonable cost. Ordering MK2 is a job for the next air chief, the chairman of DRDO and the chairman of HAL in 2024-2026. A lot of domestic companies will be part of the Tejas eco system at that time. They will need jobs and have political clout. As long as ADA and HAL deliver in terms of quality and time, MK2/MWF is certain to happen.

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 31 Oct 2021 22:53

KSingh wrote:
IAF CAS concedes 35 squadrons by mid-2030s is all they will have

6 LCA MK1/1A
15 SU-30MKI
6 AMCA
8 Rafale/MRFA

That gives their projection of 35

0 space for LCA MK.2 by the IAF’s own calculations. They aren’t bluffing, this is clearly their internal future force structure.

IF IAF CAS said we will reach our 42 squadron sanctioned strength in the next decade then its clear the LCA MK.2 would be in play but he hasn’t said that and he’s only mentioned 35 squadrons repeatedly.

LCA MK.2 *may* get token orders like they give to LCH, Arjun etc maybe 1-3 squadrons but nothing like the 6-8 we had been expecting.

MRFA has killed MWF/LCA MK.2 it’s quite obvious. Why consistently is this new CAS failing to mention it otherwise? He never fails to mention the MRFA.

Too much extrapolation from what was a pretty basic statement .

Even if you want to get into it then your predicted numbers seem a bit off , There is little to no chance we have 6 squadrons of AMCA by mid 30's , Its goint to take us till 2030 just to get 6 Tejas squadrons so for a 5th gen jet like like AMCA which is still quite a few years from starting true development it will be well into the 2040's by the time we can get 6 full squadrons of that thing . Even more so if we are budgeting for SIX more squadrons of Rafale/MRFA

Secondly the Mirages aren't going anywhere anytime soon , They just had a pretty expensive upgrade and we have bought spares to extend their lives so they can continue to serve beyond 2030 especially if the AF moves away from a Mk2/MWF

Third the likes of SWIFT,CATS and MQ9 need to be mentioned here as the IAF does seem to be interested in them taking over several roles currently assigned to fighter jets , They may not count among "sanctioned strength " but can (will ) be game changers especially in cross border strike scenarios

Fourth , Even if India's economy continues according to highest expectations the fleet you just laid out has very high costs /flight hr and tilted towards heavier more stealthy jets which will affect IAF's budget and Capex aspirations quite a bit ... It is unlikely that the force would not go towards more Tejas in such a scenario be it more advanced Mk1A .

TLDR : Such an approach seems expensive both in Capex and Opex and I really doubt IAF can survive with just 6/35 squadrons being a cheaper to buy, operate and upgrade light combat aircraft .

We may get 36 more Rafales but beyond that it will be much more prudent to focus on Mk2 and a proper MKI upgrade

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 01 Nov 2021 00:09

AkshaySG wrote:
KSingh wrote:
IAF CAS concedes 35 squadrons by mid-2030s is all they will have

6 LCA MK1/1A
15 SU-30MKI
6 AMCA
8 Rafale/MRFA

That gives their projection of 35

0 space for LCA MK.2 by the IAF’s own calculations. They aren’t bluffing, this is clearly their internal future force structure.

IF IAF CAS said we will reach our 42 squadron sanctioned strength in the next decade then its clear the LCA MK.2 would be in play but he hasn’t said that and he’s only mentioned 35 squadrons repeatedly.

LCA MK.2 *may* get token orders like they give to LCH, Arjun etc maybe 1-3 squadrons but nothing like the 6-8 we had been expecting.

MRFA has killed MWF/LCA MK.2 it’s quite obvious. Why consistently is this new CAS failing to mention it otherwise? He never fails to mention the MRFA.
Too much extrapolation from what was a pretty basic statement .

Even if you want to get into it then your predicted numbers seem a bit off , There is little to no chance we have 6 squadrons of AMCA by mid 30's , Its goint to take us till 2030 just to get 6 Tejas squadrons so for a 5th gen jet like like AMCA which is still quite a few years from starting true development it will be well into the 2040's by the time we can get 6 full squadrons of that thing . Even more so if we are budgeting for SIX more squadrons of Rafale/MRFA

Secondly the Mirages aren't going anywhere anytime soon , They just had a pretty expensive upgrade and we have bought spares to extend their lives so they can continue to serve beyond 2030 especially if the AF moves away from a Mk2/MWF

Third the likes of SWIFT,CATS and MQ9 need to be mentioned here as the IAF does seem to be interested in them taking over several roles currently assigned to fighter jets , They may not count among "sanctioned strength " but can (will ) be game changers especially in cross border strike scenarios

Fourth , Even if India's economy continues according to highest expectations the fleet you just laid out has very high costs /flight hr and tilted towards heavier more stealthy jets which will affect IAF's budget and Capex aspirations quite a bit ... It is unlikely that the force would not go towards more Tejas in such a scenario be it more advanced Mk1A .

TLDR : Such an approach seems expensive both in Capex and Opex and I really doubt IAF can survive with just 6/35 squadrons being a cheaper to buy, operate and upgrade light combat aircraft .

We may get 36 more Rafales but beyond that it will be much more prudent to focus on Mk2 and a proper MKI upgrade

We would be around 35 fighter squadrons by the next decade in view of the phasing out of old aircraft and induction of new aircraft: IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari

https://twitter.com/ani/status/1445289270055301123?s=21

These aren’t basic statements- these are the words of the senior most IAF officer.

35 squadrons is their assessment by the mid 2030s which means there’s no room for LCA MK.2

I agree 6 squadrons of AMCA are unlikely by mid-2030s but used that as their future force plan.

Taking CAS at his word it looks like in their mind:

6 LCA MK.1/1A
15 SU-30
8 Rafale/MRFA
2 AMCA
4 Mirage 2000UPG/MIG-29UP/Jaguar Darin 3

So again, 0 room for even 1-2 squadrons of LCA MK.2.

If LCA MK.2 was on the cards we could expect 4-5 squadrons of it in service come the mid-2030s so added on top of the above there would be no need to say the IAF strength would only be 35 by the mid-2030s

Again, there’s a reason this CAS mentions MRFA to LCA MM.2 on a 4:1 ratio

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Nov 2021 00:29

Forgetting to mention Tejas-Mk2 once can be considered an oversight. But when he does it twice (wherein he mentions even AMCA-Mk2), there is some "daal me kuch kaala"

The interviewer didn't have the basic sense to ask "What about Tejas Mk2"? Hopefully there will be at least one interviewer in the coming days, who will ask this question

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 01 Nov 2021 00:42

Prem Kumar wrote:Forgetting to mention Tejas-Mk2 once can be considered an oversight. But when he does it twice (wherein he mentions even AMCA-Mk2), there is some "daal me kuch kaala"

The interviewer didn't have the basic sense to ask "What about Tejas Mk2"? Hopefully there will be at least one interviewer in the coming days, who will ask this question

He has failed to mention the LCA Mk.2 3 times (of the 4 interviews/speeches he has made since becoming CAS). 1) In his official CAS address, 2) in the interview with a magazine (where he even mentioned additional Su-30s and MiG-29s) 3) In his media comments. He has only mentioned MK.2 ONCE in a video reply to ANI but he didn't mention numbers or induction timelines, it was a very vague response.

In every occasion he has mentioned the 114 MRFA and in fact has reiterated it and gone as far to rule out additional off the shelf Rafales

https://theprint.in/defence/new-iaf-chi ... ft/745485/

Off the cuff remarks you could excuse but these are pre-scripted speeches/interviews and he will have advisors/staff giving him official talking points so his comments reflect the official position of the IAF.

I do wish there was a serious defence media in India that could demand answers instead they are fed talking points and just run them without a moment of thought.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Nov 2021 00:55

This Govt wont let Tejas Mk2 go without a squabble. Relax everyone. It will be visible next year, and a flight thereafter. After that, the IAF will commit.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 Nov 2021 00:57

yes nothing proves than the actual plane...whether it is MK2 or 36th LCA FOC fighter. Show it so that it is hard to criticise.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 01 Nov 2021 01:04

Karan M wrote:This Govt wont let Tejas Mk2 go without a squabble. Relax everyone. It will be visible next year, and a flight thereafter. After that, the IAF will commit.

I hate to argue with senior members here but I cannot help but laugh at this assessment.

The IAF has no shame when it comes to these things, there are LCH LSP airframes that are painted in their colours and have been displayed at AERO INDIA that the IAF has not paid one penny to have built nor have they made even a flimsy commitment to order them.

The same fate awaits LCA MK.2, it will be a still born. IAF will ignore its existence even after the first flight and continue to only talk about the MRFA

It feels like the IAF's senior leadership have grown up in the MMRCA era and won't be satisfied until they feel like this has been achieved, LCA MK.2 isn't even on their radar. What can the GoI do about this when the IAF isn't interested? They've even said they don't merely want 36 more Rafales- they want the full 114 MRFA.

basant · Post by **basant** » 01 Nov 2021 02:25

Well, people do observe. What's the status of probe into Air Marshal Tyagi (R)? The last news I could find was in 2018. Doesn't that scream something?

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 01 Nov 2021 07:22

KSingh wrote: I do wish there was a serious defence media in India that could demand answers instead they are fed talking points and just run them without a moment of thought.

Tht will happen - L&T, TATAs, Kalyani, VEM, SSS and scores of others - indigenous players will lead to a swadeshi lobby. It will be a balancer of sorts.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Nov 2021 08:12

KSingh wrote:
Karan M wrote:This Govt wont let Tejas Mk2 go without a squabble. Relax everyone. It will be visible next year, and a flight thereafter. After that, the IAF will commit.
I hate to argue with senior members here but I cannot help but laugh at this assessment.

The IAF has no shame when it comes to these things, there are LCH LSP airframes that are painted in their colours and have been displayed at AERO INDIA that the IAF has not paid one penny to have built nor have they made even a flimsy commitment to order them.

The same fate awaits LCA MK.2, it will be a still born. IAF will ignore its existence even after the first flight and continue to only talk about the MRFA

It feels like the IAF's senior leadership have grown up in the MMRCA era and won't be satisfied until they feel like this has been achieved, LCA MK.2 isn't even on their radar. What can the GoI do about this when the IAF isn't interested? They've even said they don't merely want 36 more Rafales- they want the full 114 MRFA.

You can keep laughing and to a degree I understand your concerns, but the data and facts don't exactly bear out the above claims.

Over the past several years the IAF has committed to 7 additional squadrons of Akash, the GBMES ESM system, 83 Tejas Mk1A, local EW programs, ordered the AL Brahmos, approved the AON for 6 Netra Mk2, committed to local programs like Astra, SAAW, and the Nirbhay - all of which required their sign off.

This would not happen without the previous generation of products being ready, the GOIs aatmanirbhar bharat campaign and the IAFs senior leadership also meeting them midway. All three had to be in synch.

The problem with your rhetoric (they have no shame etc sort of rhetoric which we can't accept on the forum vs a service BTW, please tone it down) is that you haven't looked into the details.

If you had done this, you'd realize all three services are grappling with a huge budgetary squeeze. They are facing a huge operational commitment in the borders where they've deployed all their assets, are facing a numerically superior opponent. During this time too, the GOI is still balancing its books. They have not, unlike most other countries, broken their commitment to maintain a reasonable debt coverage. The GOI has increased the budget for two years running because of which they were able to order all the other items, but its still not enough.

The Armed Forces are actually 30% over their committed liabilities given their budgetary squeeze. This means they have very little for new capital procurement.

This is where the IAF prioritises. It hasn't ordered the LCH in number because right now it has very little funds and already has the Apache on its rolls. It has to order new AAMs, PGMs and 33 more fighters. It has to lease additional IFR assets and it is also the lead service for the tri service Project Cheetah to weaponize its RPA fleet. The MRSAM, S400 squadrons coming in will also need payments. Then there are a host of local radar programs all awaiting orders.

Given this mix of budgetary and operational requirements, the IAF thinks its should scale down its ambitions and commit to a ready platform like the 114 MRFA which it can afford if it drops other programs.

They did much the same to get 36 Rafale, by dropping the Su-57 program completely and pushing out the additional 2 Phalcons, IFR, Tejas Mk1A and Akash. The GOIs mandate and operational needs meant the last two were ordered.

Now put your thinking cap on. Do you really think the same GOI which had ensured the desi programs which had cleared significant development thresholds were ordered, will drop an entire funded program because of IAFs operational perspective, ignoring their own political mandate and policy aims? Driven not just by some bureaucrats but all the way from the PM?

No, it's more likely they'll meet the IAFs needs midway by ordering an additional tranche of the Rafale, 33 more fighters (MiG29s and Su-30s), and also await the Tejas Mk2 development. Provided it meets its schedule without significant delay, the IAF will be asked to commit to it as its induction will be around the same time line as a locally produced MRFA (bar CKD/SKD, direct import airframes which come faster). We are very unlikely to break the bank on a mega import deal and drop the local program. They might agree to fund the Su30 upgrade too and the IAF may prioritise that once it realizes 114 more MRFA aren't coming and hence it needs its existing fighters to remain at the cutting edge. 69 (36 + 33) imports are not 147 imports (114+33), but the GOI would have met them midway at around 50% of the requirement, and kept the path open for the Tejas MRCA. This is IMHO what I think will most likely happen. Until and unless the GOI drops its entire budgetary prudence belief system and rapidly boosts spending and expenditure on defence (very unlikely per what we've seen so far).

So you are welcome to disagree but let's keep the rhetoric, shame etc out of it. The IAF has operational needs which color its perspective. The GOI will consider them but I doubt they will give up their commitment to the Tejas as easily as you surmise.

We have seen the same approach in multiple local deals. Akash vs SRSAM, Spike vs MPATGM etc. This GOI is choosing not to break its Bank on hugely expensive, wasteful (from the perspective of import dependence) import deals.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 01 Nov 2021 08:35

KSingh wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Forgetting to mention Tejas-Mk2 once can be considered an oversight. But when he does it twice (wherein he mentions even AMCA-Mk2), there is some "daal me kuch kaala"

The interviewer didn't have the basic sense to ask "What about Tejas Mk2"? Hopefully there will be at least one interviewer in the coming days, who will ask this question
He has failed to mention the LCA Mk.2 3 times (of the 4 interviews/speeches he has made since becoming CAS). 1) In his official CAS address, 2) in the interview with a magazine (where he even mentioned additional Su-30s and MiG-29s) 3) In his media comments. ......

KSingh, I had same impression as you until I read below twit & article.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 3689563147

&

Tejas Mk2: The Pride & Future of Indian Air Force

-Ankit

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Nov 2021 11:30

YashG wrote:
Tht will happen - L&T, TATAs, Kalyani, VEM, SSS and scores of others - indigenous players will lead to a swadeshi lobby. It will be a balancer of sorts.

Coupled with import bans within a period of less than 5 years. You can be assured of seeing changes at the MOD level of well.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Nov 2021 11:33

Karan M wrote:This Govt wont let Tejas Mk2 go without a squabble. Relax everyone. It will be visible next year, and a flight thereafter. After that, the IAF will commit.

I don't quite understand this angst WRT the MWF. The government is committed to it.

The aircraft will be production ready by 2025-26.

Besides the single engine fighters are a banned item as far as imports are concerned.

So people should relax and have chai.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 01 Nov 2021 16:21

@pratyush - you are mistaken. Single engine fighters are not banned. LCA Mk1A import is banned. Not even all light combat aircraft

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage ... ID=1644570

A single engine fighter via MRFA would be not LCA Mk1A, not a light combat aircraft, and one made in India via MRFA would be just like submarines made in India, (except that it isn't on the list)
--------------------------------------------------

Back in 2018

We’re looking at 12 squadrons of the Light Combat Aircraft Mk.2, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said today at an air power conference in India’s capital, confirming months of reports suggesting the IAF was looking for over 200 of the fighters.

(But only if it met IAF expectations)

Back in 2019

IAF has told the government that it is “committed to buying” another 10 Squadrons of Tejas Mark-II (each squadron has 16-18 fighters) and 36 Advance Medium Combat (AMCA) fighters.

Even as late as ep 2021 RKS Bhadauria talked about 170 Mk 2

And now you have indirect references (?) to 7 squadrons, and omission of Tejas Mk2 by the new Air Chief

The projected induction of 7 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 as mentioned by the IAF chief is a welcome step.

I think the IAF under the new air chief really wants those 114 MRFA and may be willing to deprioritize, reduce, eliminate some, or soft pedal the Mk2 to get that 114 MRFA RFP.me