INS Vikrant News and Discussion

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Cybaru
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 08 Sep 2022 21:09

hnair wrote:Cybaru, the main issues with helicopter AEW are:

1) power generation for sensors
2) transit to station and back

It is a good choice for fleet defense, but not for full on air war or land attack.


Thank you you for your thoughts! Appreciate the response.. A few more questions sir.

How much excess power is needed? I am curious, surely some sort of larger engine can be used to create a hybrid system which powers the electronics and drives the main+tail rotors. Much easier problem to solve as it our own platform vs designing and maintaining a nuke carrier along with designing and maintaining emals on the ship.

2. Transit issue, wouldn't it being able to refuel on the outskirts of the battle group like on a smaller picket ship/frigate and maintain higher on station time? those generally are 50-100 miles from the carrier. It may not need to be housed there, but just enough to land-refuel-maintain station, perhaps a spare crew may even stationed there. Anyways most CAP and E2D don't go further than 200 miles from the CBG as they lose on station time then.

Wouldn't there also be an advantage on storage on the carrier? 4/5 AEW based copters vs 2 E2D etc, allowing 2 to be deployed at all times improving the coverage

Future will be drone based AEW. It is probably 6-8 years away. Perhaps those could be stobar launched and arrested recovery. Much less risk to losing life.

If it is good enough for fleet defense, why not order those alteast and then worry about how to get better assets like C295 or A320 for war time.

BenG
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby BenG » 08 Sep 2022 21:45

Cybaru wrote:Best is to start on an IMRH-AEW project. Order 5/10 in those config. They can also be deployed/refueled from any of the capital ships and can see far enough. I presume IMRH will have higher operational ceiling than either Ka-31 or sea kings. If they manage operational ceiling at 15-18K, it will make a huge difference than not having anything or using Ka-31s.

Lets not spend another 2-4 billion getting nuclear and emals just for AEW. That value funds the whole airwing of vikrant. Keep it simple and move on...

Use dhruv as tech demo and stick a partial or scaled down netra panel on it (6/7 meter by 2 meter). We can have it working in another few years. Don't have to wait for first IMRH to fly to sanction this.

Using IMRH is an excellent idea especially on the economics aspect. The engine has higher power output than Ka-31 with more time on station. This approach is also a safe bet since 10 new Ka-31 deal is on hold. We can get a AEW with similar but improved capabilities when current Ka-31 retires.

Better yet make an unmanned version with a stealth data link. A datalink which can securely guide missile defense, CIWS and suicide drones.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2022 05:34

Sea control, or sea denial? Defining India's strategic intent in the Indian Ocean
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/09/sea- ... ining.html
05 Sept 2022

Pratyush
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 09 Sep 2022 07:08

I have for the last 25 years or trying to understand the meaning of both sea control and sea denial.

My conclusion is that unless you are able to control seas you will never be able to deny seas to your adversaries.

It is based on the outcome of the sea denial campaigns in 2 world wars.

Even the USSR, that is thought to be last major power attempting sea denial. For most of the time was attempting to wrest sea control from NATO. The tool chosen by them was the submarine for the purpose. But by the end of the cold war they were also thinking in terms of building a balanced fleet with full sized aircraft carriers.

PRC, inspite of having developed a whole bunch of anti access area denial missiles is still building aircraft carriers. For use both within and outside the first island chain.

What I am trying to say is that one cannot exist without the other and seeing them in isolation is creating a false dichotomy for political and dogmatic reason.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby RCase » 09 Sep 2022 07:32

arshyam wrote:Back in the day, Dr Kalam worked on a project called RATO {rocket assisted take-off). Can something similar be explored for a fixed wing AEW off a STOBAR?

Khan uses JATO (jet assisted take off) on C130's to take off in very short distances. The USN's Blue Angels aerobatics team has a C130 named Fat Albert that uses JATO I have personally witnessed it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGVQa1wXp6o

Pratyush
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 09 Sep 2022 08:03

IMO, JATO is not a practical way of operating from aircraft carriers. Because it's too risky.

It's adding another volatile item on what is the world's most dangerous work environment to begin with.

NRao
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 09 Sep 2022 08:09

Pratyush wrote:I have for the last 25 years or trying to understand the meaning of both sea control and sea denial.

My conclusion is that unless you are able to control seas you will never be able to deny seas to your adversaries.

................


Sea control is when you are the **sole authority** in the "sea". One operator - you.

Sea denial is when both you and the bad guy operate (in the contested area) and your success is measured by how miserable your opponent's life is.

Pratyush
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 09 Sep 2022 08:12

NRao wrote:


Sea control is when you are the **sole authority** in the "sea". One operator - you.

Sea denial is when both you and the bad guy operate (in the contested area) and your success is measured by how miserable your opponent's life is.



But in so doing, you have demonstrated sea control.

Battle of Jutland is the best example of this.

NRao
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 09 Sep 2022 08:27

Pratyush wrote:
NRao wrote:Sea control is when you are the **sole authority** in the "sea". One operator - you.

Sea denial is when both you and the bad guy operate (in the contested area) and your success is measured by how miserable your opponent's life is.



But in so doing, you have demonstrated sea control.

Battle of Jutland is the best example of this.


No idea what you mean by "in so doing".

In control you alone are, in denial both of you and opponent are.

One could morph into the other - but, that is war. Your job is to control and sustain that state. The other guy has the same goal.

Pratyush
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 09 Sep 2022 08:32

In so doing = exercising = state of being.

I think it's just a discussion about semantics.

Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 13 Sep 2022 08:05

Drag & Drop picture into new browser window for full size.

https://twitter.com/SupratikSaumya/stat ... OopxwBL0tQ ---> INS Vikrant photoshopped with multiple MiG-29Ks on the flight deck.

Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2022 06:17

Now Cochin Shipyard to install missile systems on INS Vikrant
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 903193.ece
17 Sept 2022

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2022 20:24

https://twitter.com/IN_R11Vikrant/statu ... AdXmvR-fOQ ---> The crew of INS Vikrant R11 draws inspiration from its Crest and Motto. Dig in to find out more.

Image

Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2022 21:54

Interesting. Choice of upcoming MRCBF will also weigh in on the decision.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... AdXmvR-fOQ ---> Decision on new aircraft carrier to be taken in 2023 after operationalization of INS Vikrant: Navy Chief.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 29 Sep 2022 04:48

The Return of INS Vikrant
https://www.delhipolicygroup.org/public ... krant.html
16 August 2022

By Commodore Lalit Kapur (Retd.)

ramana
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2022 06:23

Rakesh wrote:The Return of INS Vikrant
https://www.delhipolicygroup.org/public ... krant.html
16 August 2022

By Commodore Lalit Kapur (Retd.)


IAC-2 need is there and will be funded soon.
Admiral Ramdas long ago said for Indian ship builders three of a class are economic order quantity.
However the IN carrier officers want a new class with each ship.
The best option to retain ship building crew learning curve etc is another Vikrant Class, with proper lift size to accommodate larger wing spans. It can't have too much displacement as ship power goes up.

This new ship can replace Vikramaditya which can be relegated to training role as it's availability is close to zero.

So IAC-2 is not a third carrier but the second carrier.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 30 Sep 2022 14:56

@Rakesh

This is a more accurate picture of 12 Mig-29Ks on the deck as per painted parking slots on the surface. (Ref Tweet)

Image


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