Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

[ramana]

You're saying that of the 240+ airframes we have, only 150 are worth upgrading?

Correct. And it is not I who is saying this but the plan stated in the Prasar Bharati link.
The rest of the fleet will get appropriate upgrades.

I think the engine upgrade is not related to the radar but to increase availability.

A fleet of 150 upgraded Su-30MKI KB (ka bacha) is quite potent.

[ramana]

The earliest SU-30 MKI's were inducted in 2002, I think they will be retired by 2035-40 period, especially the first 50 Built in Russia by which time the LCA Mk2, AMCA and possibly ORCA will take up their roles.

or may be out of the 272-10 crashes, 130 odd were built somewhat in Russia( Full aircraft or CKD) while 140 were built in India. Are the differences significant enough that the IAF will only want to upgrade the ones built from "Raw Material" stage at HAL we may not know.

Your logic looks correct. The older planes should get partial upgrades.
Keep thinking always as you have done.
There is no thumbs-up smiley.

[Rakesh]

Antenna of SDR (Software Defined Radio).

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 34049?s=20 ---> SDR equipped Su-30MKI.



https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 52832?s=20 --->

[Shameek]

^^ Small nitpick saar. Should be Software Defined Radio.

[Rakesh]

^^ Small nitpick saar. Should be Software Defined Radio.

Oops. My bad. Thank you for pointing out the faux pas.

[JTull]

While we're going gaga over SDR, do we finally have real data sharing with other aircraft including AEW? What about passive cueing of missiles with targeting information from other aircraft?

[NRao]

While we're going gaga over SDR, do we finally have real data sharing with other aircraft including AEW? What about passive cueing of missiles with targeting information from other aircraft?

Not that I follow such things, however, IIRC IAF has AEW&C/AWACS. The C requires a two-way connection.

The AEW&C should know at every moment every detail of each aircraft it is commanding - including how much fuel, armaments, etc (else it cannot "command")

[Cain Marko]

While we're going gaga over SDR, do we finally have real data sharing with other aircraft including AEW? What about passive cueing of missiles with targeting information from other aircraft?

AFAIK passive cueing is not possible without FCR (xband radar) which AEW don't carry. The resolution on AEW radar (S/L bands?) is not considered good enough for firing solution. However, if an MKI can get targeting info, it could send it passively (via datalink) to other MKI/fighters which won't have to turn on their FCR and then take stealthy shots. The Gripen (and possibly even the Viggen could do this way back when).

Maybe it is possible that said MKI could pass on the info via datalink to an AEW, which could then relay it over much longer distances to other passive fighters. A threeway transmission with the AEW acting as an amplifier. Not sure if this is possible or even useful - perhaps some gurus can comment.

[SidSoma]

Netra II rumored to get X band radar as well.

[Jay]

Maybe it is possible that said MKI could pass on the info via datalink to an AEW, which could then relay it over much longer distances to other passive fighters. A threeway transmission with the AEW acting as an amplifier. Not sure if this is possible or even useful - perhaps some gurus can comment.

Cain ji, with IAF's dream of 40 squadrons is in a "never possible" limbo, is there a reason why IAF did not prioritize these data sharing force multiplier abilities for our premier squadrons? Even a handful of fighters with encrypted SDR's, dualway high bandwith datalinks, SPJ's and self protection systems will tilt the advantage highly in our favor, even when we do not have big ticket assets like AWACS in the field.

[JTull]

This passive cueing capability is now common in NATO. Post-Balakot PAF was rumoured to have used this. While our our Comms were also suspect, I'm more interested in this capability from SDR acquisition.

We've also discussed Astra-II/III and Brahmos-A derivatives being used as AWACS killers. How do you suppose they'll be cued? Surely we don't expect Su-30MKI to track and cue from 200+Kms.

[fanne]

SDR does all three - voice, data and video. Israeli ones specifically calls that out.

[Cain Marko]

Isn't Prasar Bharati a Govt website ---> https://prasarbharati.gov.in/

Because they reported that the Super Sukhoi upgrade will include new engines ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7861&start=640#p2576636

From the above link (last paragraph)...


Assuming the above statement is actually going to happen, then Super Sukhoi will get the AL-41. There are two versions ---> AL-41F1 (izdeliye 117) and AL-41F1S (izdeliye 117S). I am not sure which one it will be.

Heh. Since they are referring to fgfa, which doesn't really exist, maybe they mean the izd30, the pakfas definitive engine?

Jokes apart, the engine upgrade might very well use the izd30.
1. These have reportedly been tested now in the su57.
2. This would also confirm HVTjis statement of no engine upgrade (since he was referring to the 117s , which have lesser thrust)
3. That's what the prasar bharati bit of p probably referring to when they say pakfa engines.
4. I always suspected that the IAF was slow on the mki radar because it was waiting for said engines. These engines have been confirmed on the pakfa only recently (late 2022). On cue the chit chat on mki upgrade has also materialized!
The pakfa engines (izd30) on the mki will be a HUGE upgrade in thrust. Bringing it on par with the Su-35 twr.
Thrust levels on the mki:
Original al31fp engine: 8kgf dry/12.5kgf wet
Al41 (f117s) from Su-35; 9kgf/14kgf
Izd30 (definitive pakfa): 11kgf dry/16.5kgf ab.

The pakfa is without doubt the bird with the best twr right now (without the izd30), and has already broken vertical climb records. Wonder what it'll do with the additional thrust. The claim is that it is capable of staying supersonic in it's entire flight regime (including during bfn) without using afterburners

[Cain Marko]

Maybe it is possible that said MKI could pass on the info via datalink to an AEW, which could then relay it over much longer distances to other passive fighters. A threeway transmission with the AEW acting as an amplifier. Not sure if this is possible or even useful - perhaps some gurus can comment.

Cain ji, with IAF's dream of 40 squadrons is in a "never possible" limbo, is there a reason why IAF did not prioritize these data sharing force multiplier abilities for our premier squadrons? Even a handful of fighters with encrypted SDR's, dualway high bandwith datalinks, SPJ's and self protection systems will tilt the advantage highly in our favor, even when we do not have big ticket assets like AWACS in the field.

Sirji, i believe that's what they've been working on for the past few years... Now results are being seen. Although I'm still not sure how these will obviate the need for AEW.

[Cain Marko]

This passive cueing capability is now common in NATO. Post-Balakot PAF was rumoured to have used this. While our our Comms were also suspect, I'm more interested in this capability from SDR acquisition.

We've also discussed Astra-II/III and Brahmos-A derivatives being used as AWACS killers. How do you suppose they'll be cued? Surely we don't expect Su-30MKI to track and cue from 200+Kms.

Does the sdr actually provide targeting info and tracks? My understanding, rudimentary as it is, is that sdr will provide secure and passive links, but the tracks will still have to come from fcr.

I believe the Euros had suggested using their passive ew suites as targeting systems vs emitting platforms such as aew or even fighters. Supposedly raffle and Tiffy can do this.

The passive linking that you refer to on the f16 is not so cutting edge anymore. As i said the swedes had said capacity for a long time. Iirc even the Shar and mki had it.

Targeting of aew by a brahmos variant shouldn't be a challenge considering the reach of the brahmos, it's huge onboard seeker and the mki/bars long reach.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/UTobyM/status/16319 ... 26592?s=20 ---> Deep Industrialization two decades ago: Everything in green - the entire empennage and control surfaces were manufactured in India by @DynamaticTech from raw billets, forgings, and metal sheets. An exceptional PPP with HAL and robust engineering skills by our team. #MakeInIndia

https://twitter.com/UTobyM/status/16324 ... 67904?s=20 ---> Under the skin, all of the 3,500+ detail parts were manufactured by @DynamaticTech, who brought digitization into what hitherto was an analog Russian manufacturing program. This significantly improved data fidelity, repeatability & build quality. Images distorted for confidentiality.

[prashantsharma]

Furthermore, the IAF will potentially be able to launch the Rampage from the entire fleet, incl Jags, mirage, mig29s, raffles and Tejas, given the stated weight of 560kg. Brahmots can be carried only by a limited number of specially modified sukhois. And now apparently the IN has got it for the mig-29s.

though sir i respect IAF Decision as i dont know the circumstances or specific requirement they have i believe

1) this send wrong signal to potential Brahmos buyers that our forces itself consider it as expensive and they may also look Rampage as alternative; that's like shooting on our own foot

Snip....

Mods - move the post to relevant thread as applicable

This is not really that simple.

What should have been done was to ask the DRDO to design and air launched version of the guided Pinaka. Which is what the rampage is in the Israeli context.

Or re-use the warhead section and the guidance kit Pinaka and mate it to a more powerful booster for a longer range.

Brahmos is not really in the same class.

Therefore, purchase of rampage missile makes no difference in terms of what potential buyers are thinking about the Brahmos.

PS:

1) whatever happened to the air launched ballestic missile DRDO was developing?

2) why is rudram getting so many versions without any version entering production.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/defenceattnews/stat ... 55808?s=20 ---> Two Su-30MKI fighter aircraft carried out landing and flying operations from Chennai International Airport for first time. In case of any eventuality, this procedure for fighter operations from civilian airfields will be used in operations.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 69508?s=20 ---> CASDIC (Combat Aircraft Systems Development & Integration Centre) to start the identification of Development-cum-Production Partner for the much awaited Electronic Warfare (EW) suite for Su-30MKI upgrade program. During the Design & Development Phase, ~ 6 Sets of EW Suite will be procured/developed, integrated and supplied by DCPP. After successful flight evaluation of D&D stage, DCPP will have to produce and supply a minimum of 20 sets of EW Suite per year to the user.

[MeshaVishwas]

Defence Acquisition Council approves proposals worth Rs 70,500 crore for the Armed Forces & Indian Coast Guard under Buy (Indian-IDDM) category

.....To keep pace with the emerging technologies and counter the adversaries in the Western and Northern front, the necessity of the new weapons and its integration with the delivery platforms was felt by the Government. To achieve the same objectives, the DAC accorded the approval to Indian Air Force’s proposal for Long Range Stand-Off Weapon (LRSOW) which will be indigenously designed, developed and integrated on SU-30 MKI aircraft.

Any guesses on this LRSOW?
Nirbhay ALCM?

[Thakur_B]

LRSOW is Gaurav Glide Bomb.

[drnayar]

LRSOW is Gaurav Glide Bomb.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Glide_Bombs

Gaurav s range is 100km, LRSOW more than 1000km

[Kersi]

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 69508?s=20 ---> CASDIC (Combat Aircraft Systems Development & Integration Centre) to start the identification of Development-cum-Production Partner for the much awaited Electronic Warfare (EW) suite for Su-30MKI upgrade program. During the Design & Development Phase, ~ 6 Sets of EW Suite will be procured/developed, integrated and supplied by DCPP. After successful flight evaluation of D&D stage, DCPP will have to produce and supply a minimum of 20 sets of EW Suite per year to the user.

Can the SPECTRA system from France be installed on Su-30MKI or even Tejas?

[drnayar]

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 69508?s=20 ---> CASDIC (Combat Aircraft Systems Development & Integration Centre) to start the identification of Development-cum-Production Partner for the much awaited Electronic Warfare (EW) suite for Su-30MKI upgrade program. During the Design & Development Phase, ~ 6 Sets of EW Suite will be procured/developed, integrated and supplied by DCPP. After successful flight evaluation of D&D stage, DCPP will have to produce and supply a minimum of 20 sets of EW Suite per year to the user.

Can the SPECTRA system from France be installed on Su-30MKI or even Tejas?

Even if we can, should we? Instead of paying through the nose, which it will probably be why not develop in house and make it better with future iterations?

[mody]

Can the SPECTRA system from France be installed on Su-30MKI or even Tejas?

Even if we can, should we? Instead of paying through the nose, which it will probably be why not develop in house and make it better with future iterations?

EW suite has to be compatible with the aircraft radar and a lot of other electronics and avionics. Its not possible to take a comprehensive internal EW suite like Spectra and put it on the SU-30MKI

[Rakesh]

As per the Air Chief, some technologies from the chosen MRFA is supposed to go towards AMCA. It will land up first in the Tejas Mk2.

The Su-30MKI will NOT get those technologies. The upcoming Super Sukhoi upgrade will be a separate venture.

[mody]

Tender has been issued for integration of Gaurav guided bombs on the Su-30MKI. Apparently upto 6 dedicated Su-30MKIs are being used for testing various new weapons systems and sub systems.

[Prem Kumar]

The 1000+ Km range for LRSOW seems to be from IDRW. So, take it with a pinch of salt.

There are no details about any params of LRSOW till now

[Thakur_B]

LRSOW is Gaurav Glide Bomb.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Glide_Bombs

Gaurav s range is 100km, LRSOW more than 1000km

1000 km is idrw masala.

[JTull]

LRSOW is likely to be derivative of ITCM/Nirbhay. This announcement signals funding for development of airborne variant withouy boosters, different guidance logic, et al.

[basant]

Can glide bombs be derived from cruise missiles?

[VishnuS]

Can glide bombs be derived from cruise missiles?

In theory, yes!

Glide bomb is nothing but an ordinary bomb with wings!

I also doubt whether cruise missiles have powered flight throughout the entire flight regime!

What I'd love to see is, Nirbhay with a stealth profile, 20km altitude throughout the flight regime and very high steep dive angle, just like Brahmos.

[basant]

Cruise missiles are powered throughout the flight, that is how despite being subsonic they can maintain low height and also follow terrain. It is ballistic missiles that are powered only in the boost phase and then use gravity to cover the trajectory akin to projectiles. I doubt if one can be derived from the other.

[JTull]

Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.

[chetak]

Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.

smart bombs saar....

It will probably stop of at a gas station en route, tank up, pay with a stolen credit card, before mounting the final assault

[Vips]

DR-118 Radar Warning Receiver for SU-30 MKI.

The second contract, at an overall cost of approximately Rs 950 crore, relates to 129 DR-118 Radar Warning Receivers (RWR).According to the IAF the DR-118 Radar Warning Receiver will considerably enhance the electronic warfare (EW) capabilities of the Su-30 MKI aircraft. The majority of the sub-assemblies and parts will be sourced from indigenous manufacturers. The project will boost participation of Indian electronics and associated industries, including MSMEs.

[Avid]

Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.

It is not a glide bomb at all.
https://idrw.org/iafs-su-30-fleet-to-be-equipped-with-long-range-stand-off-weapon-lrsow-air-launched-cruise-missile/

summary of article: LRSOW is an Air Launched Cruise Missile program (subsonic) with range of 1000-1500km based on ITCM

[JTull]

Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.

It is not a glide bomb at all.
https://idrw.org/iafs-su-30-fleet-to-be-equipped-with-long-range-stand-off-weapon-lrsow-air-launched-cruise-missile/

summary of article: LRSOW is an Air Launched Cruise Missile program (subsonic) with range of 1000-1500km based on ITCM

LOL using IDRW as a source

[Bart S]

IDRW should be banned here just like the Paki forums.