Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 May 2023 07:02

KrishnaK wrote:Exactly what is this pound of flesh ?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689&start=2320#p2588002

BenG wrote:When we are planning to run 3 fighter jet programs on F414, we should have planned to buy at least 20 Engines outright. This will help with spares as well as against supply chain disruptions like Covid or shooting ourselves in the foot like the clause we have in mk2 for F414 local manufacture. We never planned to manufacture Tejas mk1 with F404. It was always Kaveri which was supposed to be the intended turbofan. But we imported quite a few F404-GE-F2J3 immediately after US govt lifted sanctions. So I don't see why F414 local manufacture should hold up an order for 20 F414 for mk2 and AMCA project prototypes.

Apparently, there were some deliveries made of the F414 turbfoans to India. Ramana-ji has also indicated that in the post above.

I am looking for an official source to find out how many were delivered and when they were delivered. The first flight of the Tejas Mk 2 is expected in 2026 or 2027 I believe. This is what I came across so far (but looking for a more authoritative source);

First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2015/07/firs ... n.html?m=1
06 July 2015

As per the above article, GE is to supply 99 F414 turbofans and 16 examples are to be delivered fully built. And HAL is expected to assemble the remaining 83 turbofans in Bangalore. So Ramana-ji is close with his number of 12 turbofans. This has reportedly been the plan for quite a while. The Tejas Mk2 was always designed around the F414. The only other turbofan - the EJ200 - lost out to GE in a competing bid back in 2010.

Much water has flowed under the bridge in the past 13 years. A lot of geopolitical movements have occurred as well. Who knew - back in 2010 - that MMRCA 1.0 was going to end up being a disappointment to the Americans? The follow on SE fighter contest, was yet another set back for the US. The MRCBF is reportedly leaning towards Dassault and MRFA is not looking very promising for the Americans either.

What India is looking for now is to tie the loose ends (in setting up the F414 assembly line), but the US Govt has yet to provide the clearance. Is the US looking for more (i.e. MRCBF and/or MRFA contracts), than just a vanilla assembly line? The best option - to not delay the program - is to get the F414s directly from the US, if no clearance for an assembly line is provided by GOTUS. This route comes with its own headaches, but adopting any other option (i.e. another turbofan) at this late in the game will delay the program quite significantly.

A parallel developmental program (Mk2 prototypes with F414 turbofans and production variants with another turbofan) would only balloon the costs. That would be a disaster considering how defense-budget averse our decision makers are. But this has been done before ---> the first flight of the Rafale occurred on 04 July 1986 with F404 turbofans. The first time the Rafale flew with the French-origin M88 turbofans was on 27 February 1990.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 May 2023 07:04

maitya wrote:Rakesh-ji, not an expert or anything, by any stretch of imagination ... more of somewhat of an careful observer, maybe.

A lot to absorb from your post. Thank you for that detailed reply. You definitely don't disappoint

Will reply in a bit.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 12 May 2023 08:08

Rakesh wrote: Apparently, there were some deliveries made of the F414 turbfoans to India. Ramana-ji has also indicated that in the post above.

I am looking for an official source to find out how many were delivered and when they were delivered. The first flight of the Tejas Mk 2 is expected in 2026 or 2027 I believe. This is what I came across so far (but looking for a more authoritative source);

First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September
https://www.aj

ramana wrote: Ben, Already 12 F414 were bought for Mk2 and other aircraft development. Hence the confidence in the programs. Only bug is the IAF keeps addiinng quietly more payload and ADA meekly accepts. We get to know when program is replanned. And cussing restarts.

Thank u Rakesh and ramana ji! Let hope they have already completed all the detailed enginnering work needed to integrate F414 to the airframe.

I have some more quesitions.

maitya wrote: I mean K9 (51KN/75KN at 1235Kg - suboptimal yes but brilliant for an ab-initio initiative) has been ready for almost an decade now - however, no initiative whatsoever towards making it fly on a LCA prototype and baseline the design.

So, let's see what we have got in the currently funded program - a 48.5KN dry thrust version (for UCAV application - and at 1180Kg).

Wouldn't it be optimal to test it on a twin-engine platform like Mig-29 in Russia?
Tejas is single-engined and crashing it could put a huge liability on the program balance sheet. Mig-29 is a proven airframe. Despite the war in Ukraine, Russians have helped with the testing of Kaveri so far. Mikoyan can definitely use the funds too. We can't wait forever for all our own infrastructure to be ready.

Since HAL CATS warrior will be using HTFE-25, what application do we have for Dry Kaveri?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 May 2023 12:37

Swift/AURA, is a known candidate for dry Kaveri application.

I can think of multiple new members of the CATS Warrior family using the dry Kaveri.

1)an Indian version of the ghost bat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_MQ-28_Ghost_Bat

2) Unmanned replacement for the Jaguar: Twin engine 1500 km combat radius unmanned counterpart to the maned aircraft. It would easily have an internal payload of 4 tons. Because it's unmanned and low observable it's performance characteristics don't have to match a manned platform.

3) unmanned fuel tanker for the penetrating jets of the IAF. 8 tons of fuel tranfer upto 600 kms from base gives formidable capacity to the IAF. Should be able to manage a flight of 4 MK2 Air per tanker.

Because it's going to be very cheap compared to airliner based tanker. It can be built in large numbers.

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 May 2023 12:58

ajay_hk wrote: Tejas Mk 2 languishes amid lack of funds
India's Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) officially approved the project on 1 September 2022 for development, flight testing, and certification. Janes previously reported that funding of INR66.17 billion (USD809.17 million) was sanctioned.

However, Janes has learnt that the Indian government included a clause in the funding approval stipulating that this money would be released only after the US government approved a 100% transfer of engine technology to India. The clause is related to India's 2010 selection of the General Electric (GE) F414-INS6 engine to power the Mk 2, according to previous disclosures by GE and India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – an agency under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

“The clause states that the money will be released if the US government agrees to transfer the technology of the F414-INS6 engine,” a source told Janes .

You know, I'm with the Govt on this one. If the DRDO submitted to the CCS in its Tejas Mk2 proposal that we'd be getting F414 full TOT (whatever it means) as well as (I might be speculating) that it might help with Kaveri programme, then the Govt would be well within its rights to call the bluff. And puts pressure on US to either deliver what it has committed to or say they can't and walk away from any future defense deal.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 12 May 2023 13:22

I think many here are not reading the posts carefully enough ... so the questions, that have been already answered for, keep coming up.

The current dry-Kaveri version is a K9 variant, and that is the only currently officially funded program (of Kaveri genre) in GTRE.
This dry version of the Kaveri, currently generates 48.5KN (design 46KN) and has a brand new fan that is optimized for tolerance against high degree of inlet pressure distortion - that are typical of serpentine inlets.
And moreover it still retains the Fan PR (of 3.4:1), BPR (of 0.16:1) and same mass-flow rate (78Kg/s) figures of the baseline Kaveri (K9).
Now which of the current programs uses serpentine inlet? UCAV/Ghatak for one - AMCA for another, but for it, the thrust-level requirements are much higher.

So that should answer the question regarding target-program for the dry-Kaveri version.

1) But then again conventional 4+ gen platforms don't have serpentine inlets - so all the compromises in the Fan done for this dry-variant, to allow for such high-degree of inlet pressure distortion, wouldn't be required.
So what it essentially means is, theoretically you can have another Fan with a higher SPR, and then it can be integrated with the rest of this dry-variant - and that would augment the dry thrust levels of that version of the Kaveri-derivative.
But that may need (depending upon the headroom available wrt these parameters) a slighter higher BPR (so that the mass-flow through the core remains as is) and also maybe slighter more efficient (or more powerful) LPT as well.
This is so because the overall dry-thrust levels of a turbofan comes from both the Fan and the Core - increasing mass-flow thru the Fan (and keeping the core as is) will, almost proportionately, increase the dry-thrust-from-Fan component.

2) But if, the HPCs of this dry-thrust variant iare also improved (and there are rumors of that being tried as well), the OPR (and the dry thrust levels as well) can be further increased as well. It's current OPR is same (so 21.5:1, a very modest achievement) as that of the baseline Kaveri (K9) variant.
Similarly the certain shortcomings in the hot-section of the core (same as that of Kabini in K9), can also be addressed.

Now all of these particular set of "improvements" (pt 2) can be undertaken as a part of the funded dry-Kaveri program, towards increase it's thrust levels even further.
An un-funded but a parallel program, implementing Pt 1 above, on the top of this "improved" dry-thrust-Kaveri-variant, then can create a brand new version of the Kaveri itself (K10?), towards achieving 58-60KN/88-90KN Kaveri variant, that's bang in the F404-IN20 territory (pls use your imagination wrt it's applicability/usage).

However though, if a 98KN Kaveri-variant (so F414-INS6 territory) is to be developed, on the back of this K10 development initiatives, then a fully-funded program would be required - as it will require some fundamental changes/improvements to the core (Kabini) itself. There's already a technology roadmap available (refer to Rakeshji's post in the Kaveri thread) from GTRE, towards achieving it - ofcourse, funding it etc is a pure GoI/MoD discretion, who are currently completely-and-single-mindedly focused

on getting a "foreign partner" for the 120KN 5th gen turbofan dev initiative etc.

But very first step of doing any of these, is to baseline the baseline-Kaveri design (so K9) by flight-testing it thru the entire flight envelope - it can be done on a LCA PV/TD variants or maybe even in any of the twin engine platforms in current service (fat chance of IAF agreeing to "lend" any of these platforms - and Russia won't spare any).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 May 2023 21:31

maitya, How will this dry Kaveri perform when there are no serpentine inlets?
I assume there will be a pressure drop in those serpentine inlets due to the bends.
But should not be much.
Godrej took up the task to make dry Kaveri production models.
I heard DRDO is making an A/B for this from a clean sheet.
I didn't want to use scratch lest it reads as screech!

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 14 May 2023 12:19

^^^ Ramanaji pls note, have attempted to respond in the Kaveri thread.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 15 May 2023 20:56

US To Clear Joint Production Of F-414 Jet Engines In India For Tejas Mark II Before PM Modi’s Visit

The US is anticipated to grant approval for production of the General Electric (GE) F-414 jet engine for the Tejas MK-II fighter jet in India, ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's forthcoming visit to the US.

Earlier, the White House announced the dates of Prime Minister Modi's first visit to US during the Biden Administration. Scheduled for 22 June 2023, the visit will include a state dinner.

The US and India will also hold the inaugural session of 'Strategic Trade Dialogue' on 4 and 5 June, during which India and the US are expected to expedite outcomes, decided in the Initiative on Critical and Emerging technologies (iCET) signed between Indian and US NSAs on 31 January.

According to an HT report, the decision to start this dialogue was taken when US Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo visited India on 10 March.

The Indian Foreign Secretary Vinay Kwatra will hold discussions with the US Under-Secretary of Commerce for Industry and Security Alan Estevez, as part of the dialogue.

The dialogue will include deliberations on removing hurdles under International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR).

This will make it easy for US companies to do joint production of high-tech military equipment like jet engines, munitions and drones with Indian companies.

As part of the iCET, GE is also working to shift its F-414 manufacturing to India from the European Union. The GE F-414 is a low-bypass turbofan engine which produces a maximum thrust of 98 KN.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has selected the GE F-414 engine to power its new Tejas MK-II fighter jet. The Tejas MK-II will be a bigger, heavier, faster, and technically more advanced fighter than the LCA Tejas MK-1A.

Apart from the GE jet engines, India is also collaborating to establish resilient supply chains for semiconductors with the US.

Another proposal is to develop advanced intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) technologies for maritime domain awareness in the Indo-Pacific, as part of which India has also leased two MQ-9 Sea Guardian drones from the US.

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/us-to-c ... odis-visit

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 May 2023 05:22

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/us-to-c ... odis-visit

Note this news folks.

I see Sanjay already posted the text.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 May 2023 13:23

The reporter Ujjwal usually quotes other news sources in her reports (am assuming its a she). Looks like a newbie.

Am not sure if news is corroborated by anything else. Swarajya is not strong on defense reporting yet & don't seem to have independent sources

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 May 2023 20:02

https://twitter.com/ang3lkenny/status/1 ... 40705?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk2 and GE 414 ToT related update per HAL.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Jun 2023 11:34

There is a lot of talk on on F414 engine, but no news on acquiring 8-10 F414, HAL rolling out the Prototypes, doing Taxi trials etc on them, any updates in this regard.

Ideally IAF should order Tejas MK1A's today to speed up production of MK1A from 2026 and start rolling out the prototypes for MK2 which are needed from yesterday.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Jun 2023 18:57

I think we already have 16 F-414 (or some number) for the last many years.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 22 Jun 2023 20:13

We may have 8 F-414 avaliable.

Indian ADA to roll Tejas Mark II prototype with F-414 engine by 2024 end
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 94817.html
21 June 2023

With eight F-414 jet engines already procured by the ADA, design frozen, critical design review already approved by the IAF, the agency will roll out the Mark II prototype by 2024 end for testing and operational clearance.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Jun 2023 22:26

Roll out in 2024, taxi trials in 2025, when orders come and when will induction happen. It would really smart to order more Mk1A today to replace 3 squadrons of Jags and entire Bison fleet, giving 8 squadrons of LCa and order another 2 squadrons of Rafale in May 24.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2023 08:41

ashishvikas wrote:We may have 8 F-414 avaliable.

Indian ADA to roll Tejas Mark II prototype with F-414 engine by 2024 end
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 94817.html
21 June 2023

With eight F-414 jet engines already procured by the ADA, design frozen, critical design review already approved by the IAF, the agency will roll out the Mark II prototype by 2024 end for testing and operational clearance.

I think 4 will be used for Mk2 and two for spare or AMCA

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Jun 2023 11:01

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/tejas-m ... nd-of-2024

Swarajya, based on the HT article, reports that there is nearly a year's delay in Tejas MK2 prototype rollout. Was supposed to be start of 2024. But its now end of 2024

Saurav Jha had earlier lamented that the delays in funds-release had already delayed the Mk2 to 2024 - I think he meant start of 2024. With the above news, the delay is getting worse!

https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/ma ... 95688.html

In 2021, HAL Chief Madhavan told Chindu that the rollout will happen in 2022 and high speed taxi trials in 2023!

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 708634.ece

This does not reflect well on anyone: MoD, ADA or HAL

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 23 Jun 2023 19:23

This Tejas Mk2 saga is sabotage by vested interests of DRDO and HAL? Clearly ADA and HAL are accountable for loose talks and misleading the nation.

On what basis they had given earlier timelines without any disclaimer and in-fact bragging about shorter timelines to rollout 01st proto and 01st flight.
Now they are talking about funding issues, supply chain issues and detailed testing and security measures.

I am following BRF from 2017 and now I have experienced what DRDO and HAL had been doing since ages. No wonder why IAF is reluctant to trust them.
I feel very apologetic for having all the wrong opinions about IAF leadership.

Why should IAF suffer and be the only party accountable for nation's defense? Why PMO, Mod, DRDO, HAL are not responsible?
Nowhere I see the statements from ADA & HAL, like running certain project in mission mode and stressing the commitment towards the nation.

If ADA and HAL are ultimately controlled and constrained by MoD, then MoD and defense minister is responsible.
I just pray that current defense minister will step down sooner, main unki kadi ninda karta hoon !!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jun 2023 20:29

The IAF has to sign off on the CDR.

Once that is done only then the roll out timeframes can be firmed up.

The roll out of the prototype is within acceptable timeframe from the date of CDR.

So the primary contention of HAL overcommitting is flawed.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 26 Jun 2023 21:33

HAL should give both target dates as well as conditions/constraints in meeting the dates...
Without that, we can never really know where the problem is...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jun 2023 21:40

Pratyush wrote:The IAF has to sign off on the CDR.

Once that is done only then the roll out timeframes can be firmed up.

The roll out of the prototype is within acceptable timeframe from the date of CDR.

So the primary contention of HAL overcommitting is flawed.

• On 31 August 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the project to develop the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter. This project - which is expected to cost Rs. 6,500 crore - is for the design, development, testing and certification of the aircraft. An earlier Rs 2,500 crore was sanctioned in November 2009 for design and development to get to the CDR stage.
Source: https://tinyurl.com/3vabften

• R. Madhavan - Chief Managing Director of HAL - in an interview dated January 2022, stated that the design for the Tejas Mk2 has been frozen and some of the manufacturing activities have started.
Source: https://tinyurl.com/p4tpmje3

• Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari, the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS) of the Indian Air Force, accepted the Critical Design Review (CDR) of the Tejas Mk2 on 15 November 2021.
Source: https://tinyurl.com/2yz6trhb

basant · Post by **basant** » 27 Jun 2023 01:56

Fund sanction is different from fund release. That seems to be case here in particular:

Last September, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had cleared Rs 6,500 crore for the project to develop the LCA Mk2, a more lethal and upgraded version of India's homegrown Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. However, the disbursement of funds is believed to have gotten delayed. Similarly, the ongoing project to develop the fifth generation stealth aircraft, named Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), is awaiting nod for the past three years.

Source: indiatoday.in

Some other news I saw online suggest that fund release was tied to ToT being signed. If that is the case, I won't be surprised.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jun 2023 02:07

You are correct basant.

I read that too, about the fund release being tied to the ToT (screwdrivergiri of the F414 turbofan). Only once the F414 deal is signed, would the funds be released for the development of the Tejas Mk2 prototypes.

Classic babudom at work. There are 8 F414s already in the country, so they could have started on the development. But the babus will wait for engine deal to be signed, sealed and delivered...before releasing funds to have ADA develop the aircraft.

williams · Post by **williams** » 27 Jun 2023 02:54

hemant_sai wrote:This Tejas Mk2 saga is sabotage by vested interests of DRDO and HAL? Clearly ADA and HAL are accountable for loose talks and misleading the nation.

On what basis they had given earlier timelines without any disclaimer and in-fact bragging about shorter timelines to rollout 01st proto and 01st flight.
Now they are talking about funding issues, supply chain issues and detailed testing and security measures.

I am following BRF from 2017 and now I have experienced what DRDO and HAL had been doing since ages. No wonder why IAF is reluctant to trust them.
I feel very apologetic for having all the wrong opinions about IAF leadership.

Why should IAF suffer and be the only party accountable for nation's defense? Why PMO, Mod, DRDO, HAL are not responsible?
Nowhere I see the statements from ADA & HAL, like running certain project in mission mode and stressing the commitment towards the nation.

If ADA and HAL are ultimately controlled and constrained by MoD, then MoD and defense minister is responsible.
I just pray that current defense minister will step down sooner, main unki kadi ninda karta hoon !!

Hamant Ji, I understand your impatience and frustration. But any dates or timeline spoken in Media interviews is an estimate. Estimates are really glorified guesses, especially for this kind of complex project. In other private organizations when such estimates are given by the technical team, project managers usually pad them with some additional time for reasonable unknowns and ask for a budget. Executive leadership usually knows that even that budget is still based on an estimate and will let the project managers manage the actuals when the project commences and it is rare for a project to ever meet the initial estimates of budget and time. In fact, there is a saying, that between time, budget, and quality only two of it can ever be achieved in a project.

WRT IAF, they are looking for concrete dates and hence it is quite easy for them to buy off-the-shelf products that are available in the market. You cannot blame them, because their business is as such and our threat perspective is quite complex, to say the least. Obviously, International Marketers will dangle their off-the-shelf product and go through any creative means (including no so legal ones to sell it)

Political leadership on the other hand will never understand these nuances except that, people expect their intentions to be genuine. I for one do not doubt the current political leadership's intentions. Where we need reform is in the DM and FinM Babudoom. Even if we assume they are all clean (hopefully), civil service people (or for that matter even military service people) do not understand budgeting and planning for major green field technology development projects with a lot of unknowns and innovation requirements. We need to recruit operational and strategic managers from the private sector who have experience running such projects and who have the right management training. We have many such talented folks and we should be able to recruit them. Political leadership has to initiate such reforms at least for the defense production are in the DM if they want better results than what we have been seeing for decades.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 27 Jun 2023 07:00

Rakesh wrote:You are correct basant.

I read that too, about the fund release being tied to the ToT (screwdrivergiri of the F414 turbofan). Only once the F414 deal is signed, would the funds be released for the development of the Tejas Mk2 prototypes.

Classic babudom at work. There are 8 F414s already in the country, so they could have started on the development. But the babus will wait for engine deal to be signed, sealed and delivered...before releasing funds to have ADA develop the aircraft.

babus will not make commissions if imports dont happen. So babus made sure they get their commissions even if desi mk2 is ordered.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 27 Jun 2023 20:41

williams wrote:.... Political leadership has to initiate such reforms at least for the defense production are in the DM if they want better results than what we have been seeing for decades.

I do agree but this is what we expect now that BJP has continuous 9 years in power. It is obvious that BJP's political leadership has not yet understood this. And I don't have any hopes from Raksha Mantri ji that he is willing and capable to understand it. Please note that, I never raised question on his intent.

Who is going to tell Modi ji that we need to replace him with much more committed and capable candidate? Someone who can focus on defense than worry about elections. So Candidate who is going to fight lok sabha elections, should not be chosen as defense minister.

basant · Post by **basant** » 28 Jun 2023 04:13

IMHO, the 'babus' have shown more commitment towards desi fighters compared to the IAF. (Remember that Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi (retd) is currently on bail in the case related to dilution of specs for the VIP choppers and the associated kickbacks.) The release of funds have to do with the ministries, and I am certain that the concerned ministers and the PMO will be overseeing directly the allocation of funds. If it was a policy decision to wait till the ToT is signed, I can see the rational to force GE and US Gov to yield more favorably towards the country's security. Is this delay bad? certainly so. But we do not have the tech and we will be played against it. This will continue till we are self sufficient in the engine tech.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jun 2023 06:36

Rakesh wrote:You are correct basant.

I read that too, about the fund release being tied to the ToT (screwdrivergiri of the F414 turbofan). Only once the F414 deal is signed, would the funds be released for the development of the Tejas Mk2 prototypes.

Classic babudom at work. There are 8 F414s already in the country, so they could have started on the development. But the babus will wait for engine deal to be signed, sealed and delivered...before releasing funds to have ADA develop the aircraft.

If it was really a babu (or baboos) who made the decision to delay the funds till the F414 deal got signed, I am having a hard time believing that it is not a malicious act and just usual incompetence. Of course the political bosses were stupid enough to sign off on it so no point blaming only the baboos. With sh**housery like this the Mk2 won't be ready even by 2038.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Jun 2023 07:32

Rakesh has listed the timeline from CDR to the CCS approval.

Looking at that timeline, I am not able to see where the baboos have had an opportunity to delay the project.

I have seen reporting on YouTube stating that the funds will not be released unless the tech transfer agreement was not signed.

But such a step is blow your own head for running out of tea at home. Where the grocery shop is right next door.

Foolish beyond belief.

IAF would have thrown a fit of this was the state of things.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Jun 2023 09:26

'90% LCA components will be indigenous': Tejas Mk 2 to be ready for first flight by 2025
Shimona Kanwar | TNN

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/us-dea ... 321572.cms

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 28 Jun 2023 09:57

^^^
A plane in hand with 80% indigenous content is better than one in bush with 90%.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 28 Jun 2023 09:59

Confirms other reports that say that rollout is planned for end-2024 (18 months from now) and first flight 6 months afterwards (which is mid-2025). This is the best case scenario

I wish people like the HAL Chairman are more judicious in their choice of words when they talk about timelines. They must know from experience how convoluted the procurement system is. So, before they make statements like "rollout will happen in 2022", they should, at the very least, caveat it with "subject to MoD releasing funds" etc

Communication is key & of course, so is sticking to committed deadlines

Otherwise the whole thing looks mismanaged

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 29 Jun 2023 15:48

The engine part of the Indian origin fighters need to be "modularized", if you will. We should be able to install our own engine, American, French or British engine as needed. This way we won't be dependent on a single source and be arm twisted.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 29 Jun 2023 21:52

^^^
this idea has surfaced on this forum before as well. The informed opinion on this aspect has been that engine to frame de-coupling is not as easy as it sounds. Its very difficult especially as the complexity of fighters have increased now a lot compared to earlier era.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jun 2023 22:08

^^^ In addition to what YashG has said, only GE has a workable 98kN turbofan. 98kN is wet thrust and is what the Mk2 will need.

Safran does not have such a turbofan (the M88 only goes up to 75kN wet thrust) and Rolls Royce's EJ200 would work, but would require a significant (lead time) development to mate it to the Mk2's airframe.

Back in 2010, if the EJ200 was chosen and a contract was signed....then today (13 years later), a proven EJ200 variant would have been available. And the M88 hot core reportedly has a design life of up to 105kN, but requires funding to develop. India did not adopt either of them, so F414 turbofan is the only option now.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 Jun 2023 01:47

Tejas MK2 is marred in too much of secrecy
1. It has been claimed that it was ready to be rolled out in 2022 and fly in 2023 - from funds left over from MK1 dev (and 8 F414 engines have already been delivered -3-4 years ago)
2. Later, it was to fly 18 months from when funds were sanctioned
3. Funds were sanctioned but not released (are there steps after released?, like released but not deposited, deposited but not withdrawn/authorized, withdrawn but not used, ....we may be waiting for a very long time)
4. We have sent MK2 intakes to France for validation. What does that mean? Is that scaled version or actual size of intakes or actual plane (without all the internals?)?
5. The date of roll out and flight changes every few months from roll out is 2023 to 2024 to 2025 ....flight in 2024, 2025 (no one has said 2026, but wait for few months).
6. I suspect that IAF has not signed off on the final product, hence no release of fund...
7. Recommendation -separate the r&d from the plane. Maybe have a PV (prototype vehicle) that can fly sooner. Let it be near (or dare I say exceed IAF ask if we can) IAF spec and fly it. If that was the case, MK2 would have flown in 2022. We would have proven by now the canards, area ruling, refulling, nose cone, intake. The risk would have been, IAF would have vetoed it on any of it shortfalls. So what MOD + Politicians are saying- sign off then only we move forward. That is what maybe taking time. We should order 50 more Mk1a. IAF fear of loosing out on MRFA, if MK2 succeeds.

bala · Post by **bala** » 30 Jun 2023 02:50

The key is that India should accommodate adequate time to prove out R&D concepts. MK2 is still a paper design with many new stuff like canards, twin engine and more. We have seen time taken for HTT-40, Sitara, Helos etc. All this planning, AGILE methodology, what IAF wants, what MOD wants, promised timelines, etc are moot. Let R&D take time to get things right. The folks involved can do the necessary adjustments, optimizations that are needed and once the thing flys we can talk about manufacturing schedules, how many in what time frame and so on.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jun 2023 10:13

fanne wrote:Tejas MK2 is marred in too much of secrecy
1. It has been claimed that it was ready to be rolled out in 2022 and fly in 2023 - from funds left over from MK1 dev (and 8 F414 engines have already been delivered -3-4 years ago)
2. Later, it was to fly 18 months from when funds were sanctioned
3. Funds were sanctioned but not released (are there steps after released?, like released but not deposited, deposited but not withdrawn/authorized, withdrawn but not used, ....we may be waiting for a very long time)
4. We have sent MK2 intakes to France for validation. What does that mean? Is that scaled version or actual size of intakes or actual plane (without all the internals?)?*
5. The date of roll out and flight changes every few months from roll out is 2023 to 2024 to 2025 ....flight in 2024, 2025 (no one has said 2026, but wait for few months).
6. I suspect that IAF has not signed off on the final product, hence no release of fund...
7. Recommendation -separate the r&d from the plane. Maybe have a PV (prototype vehicle) that can fly sooner. Let it be near (or dare I say exceed IAF ask if we can) IAF spec and fly it. If that was the case, MK2 would have flown in 2022. We would have proven by now the canards, area ruling, refulling, nose cone, intake. The risk would have been, IAF would have vetoed it on any of it shortfalls. So what MOD + Politicians are saying- sign off then only we move forward. That is what maybe taking time. We should order 50 more Mk1a. IAF fear of loosing out on MRFA, if MK2 succeeds.

fanne sorry to be rude, but what goes your father?
The Mk2 was redesigned three times due to IAF demands. And to be really perfect it needs a 130KN engine.
It is mota lota way more powerful than the M2K.
Just because IAf has its press and DRDO does not, it doesn't mean we lose perspective.
Just to let you know IAF can do jack sh*t as it is they who keep adding requirements.
Their hope is by doing this they can get MRFA.
The CDR is over and that's the plane that is being built. So any improvements will be later.
And exceeding is unobtainium.
Hence PMO is running the project.

* Intakes are sent for wind tunnel testing.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jun 2023 10:15

Luxtor wrote:The engine part of the Indian origin fighters need to be "modularized", if you will. We should be able to install our own engine, American, French or British engine as needed. This way we won't be dependent on a single source and be arm twisted.

Luxtor, Since the first Whittle Engine, the plane is designed around the engine.
Also with an unstable design like LCA to give agility, it is not a trivial thing to swap engines.