LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
^^^
It would seem SP-2 went through a complete re-build to IOC-2 standards. SP-1 was much further along before IOC-2 certification was obtained and was taken to completion with as much IOC-2 as feasible. However as the IAF has stated, they will not use SP-1 for squadron formation since the build standard is not completely IOC-2. In the same light, SP-2 could have been delivered quicker without full adherence to IOC-2 standard but then would have faced the same fate as SP-1. But now, if full IOC-2 build specs, SP-2 would be able to be used for squadron formation.
It would seem SP-2 went through a complete re-build to IOC-2 standards. SP-1 was much further along before IOC-2 certification was obtained and was taken to completion with as much IOC-2 as feasible. However as the IAF has stated, they will not use SP-1 for squadron formation since the build standard is not completely IOC-2. In the same light, SP-2 could have been delivered quicker without full adherence to IOC-2 standard but then would have faced the same fate as SP-1. But now, if full IOC-2 build specs, SP-2 would be able to be used for squadron formation.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Using this article, we should be able to keep track and figure out how long things take once LCA components make it on to a Jig.
HAL on mission mode to ramp up Tejas production
HAL on mission mode to ramp up Tejas production
Let's keep the following tabs and see when a flight takes place and delivery to the IAF occurs:March 24, 2016
...
"The energy levels are high and we are wasting no time in our efforts to step up the production rate. Now, SP-3 is all set to enter the equipping and final assembly and SP-4 is ready to go for coupling. All SP-5 components are already on the jig. And, some of the modules of SP-6 and SP-7 too are entering the jig," says Sridharan.
He is confident of loading the components of SP-8 also on to the jig within a month, thereby ensuring an early roll out of the fighters.
...
- SP-1 -> first flight (Oct 1, 2014); delivered to the IAF (Jan-17, 2015) [Looks like it takes around 3-months]
- SP-2 -> assembly completed; first flight (March 23, 2016) [Let's see how long it takes from first flight to delivery to IAF]
- SP-3 -> final equipping and assembly; first flight planned for July, 2016 [Looks like around 3-months to flight once it gets to this stage]
- SP-4 -> ready for coupling
- SP-5 -> all components on the jig
- SP-6 -> some modules on jig
- SP-7 -> some modules on jig
- SP-8 -> components will be loaded on a jig within a month (by April 24, 2016) [this one will be the one to watch to see how long it takes once it loads on a jig]
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with-two ... ly-1391301
NEW DELHI: India will get its Tejas fighter squadron -- indigenously built Combat Aircraft -- on July 1, with two planes. The squadron will be based in in Tamil Nadu's Sulur.
Another two fighters are expected in the next financial year, 2016-17, a senior Air Force commander told NDTV. The total strength of the squadron - normally they have 14 to 16 aircraft -- and its name will be decided later.
The first two Tejas fighters, however, won't be used for operations now. They will undergo test flights to resolve certain flaws. The clearance for operations is expected in December.
The Tejas still has 19 unresolved issues - including nose wheel vibrations, high noise level in the cockpit -- which need to be sorted out. "The HAL (the manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) and IAF are working closely to sort out these issues, we expect them to go through it quickly," the commander said.
For now, the Air Force will start the training and induction of pilots. Also, test pilots manning the squadron will work closely with HAL to "deal with the niggling issues," he added.
To make up the numbers the Air Force has ordered 80 more Tejas fighters, and their total number will be 120 -- the delivery will depend on HAL's production capacity.
The first batch 20 fighters produced by HAL will not have the capacity to refuel on air - a critical quality during operations.
"That, a better radar , and the ability to fire missiles beyond the visual range will be incorporated in the second batch of 20 fighters," the officer said. India is hoping to use Israeli radars.
The Defence ministry and HAL are in the process of increasing the production capacity of Tejas fighters. The plan is to produce at least 8 aircraft annually and then increase it to 16 fighters, that is one squadron, a year.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
They had to put that in there, didn't they?The first batch 20 fighters produced by HAL will not have the capacity to refuel on air - **a critical quality during operations.**
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Thanks for info. For your other post, means of tracking LCA delivery schedule progress is a nice one,it will be more effective if AKM keeps similar reporting once a month. (Or we barge in RakshaMantri office and steal monthly LCA progress report).
srai wrote:^^^
It would seem SP-2 went through a complete re-build to IOC-2 standards. SP-1 was much further along before IOC-2 certification was obtained and was taken to completion with as much IOC-2 as feasible. However as the IAF has stated, they will not use SP-1 for squadron formation since the build standard is not completely IOC-2. In the same light, SP-2 could have been delivered quicker without full adherence to IOC-2 standard but then would have faced the same fate as SP-1. But now, if full IOC-2 build specs, SP-2 would be able to be used for squadron formation.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
What is "Clearance of Operations"? Is this an administrative clerk procedural thing especially for a new fighter and a new squadron or is this IAF bringing out a new test which will only confirm that LCA doesn't have refuelling, Cobham radome etc. etc.?
Is Sulur on-track to run a Tejas squadron in 2 years (by end 2018) going by HAL delivery promises?
Is Sulur on-track to run a Tejas squadron in 2 years (by end 2018) going by HAL delivery promises?
NEW DELHI: India will get its Tejas fighter squadron -- indigenously built Combat Aircraft -- on July 1, with two planes. The squadron will be based in in Tamil Nadu's Sulur.
Another two fighters are expected in the next financial year, 2016-17, a senior Air Force commander told NDTV. The total strength of the squadron - normally they have 14 to 16 aircraft -- and its name will be decided later.
The first two Tejas fighters, however, won't be used for operations now. They will undergo test flights to resolve certain flaws. The clearance for operations is expected in December.
The Tejas still has 19 unresolved issues - including nose wheel vibrations, high noise level in the cockpit -- which need to be sorted out. "The HAL (the manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) and IAF are working closely to sort out these issues, we expect them to go through it quickly," the commander said.
For now, the Air Force will start the training and induction of pilots. Also, test pilots manning the squadron will work closely with HAL to "deal with the niggling issues," he added.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
The question has already been answered.Bhaskar_T wrote:What is "Clearance of Operations"? Is this an administrative clerk procedural thing especially for a new fighter and a new squadron or is this IAF bringing out a new test which will only confirm that LCA doesn't have refuelling, Cobham radome etc. etc.?
Is Sulur on-track to run a Tejas squadron in 2 years (by end 2018) going by HAL delivery promises?
srai wrote:Using this article, we should be able to keep track and figure out how long things take once LCA components make it on to a Jig.
HAL on mission mode to ramp up Tejas production
Let's keep the following tabs and see when a flight takes place and delivery to the IAF occurs:
If I had to take a guess, HAL would likely be able to deliver SP-2, SP-3, SP-4 and SP-5 this year based on where things are. If I remember correctly, the IAF requires four aircraft to form a squadron. A lot of the squadron formation activities are already underway. We can expect first LCA squadron ceremony with 4 LCAs sometime early next year.
- SP-1 -> first flight (Oct 1, 2014); delivered to the IAF (Jan-17, 2015) [Looks like it takes around 3-months]
- SP-2 -> assembly completed; first flight (March 23, 2016) [Let's see how long it takes from first flight to delivery to IAF]
- SP-3 -> final equipping and assembly; first flight planned for July, 2016 [Looks like around 3-months to flight once it gets to this stage]
- SP-4 -> ready for coupling
- SP-5 -> all components on the jig
- SP-6 -> some modules on jig
- SP-7 -> some modules on jig
- SP-8 -> components will be loaded on a jig within a month (by April 24, 2016) [this one will be the one to watch to see how long it takes once it loads on a jig]
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Bhaskar_T wrote:What is "Clearance of Operations"? .....
In normal Service Language it is called IOC. This "clearance" authorises the supervising staff of an unit to permit inexperienced normal pilots to fly the aircraft of the unit.
... But. ...but.
Yes. I know that IOC for Tejas was declared many years ago. Later, the event was renamed IOC-1, hinting that the "clearance" was perhaps not a "clearance". Then we received another "clearance" called IOC-2. Even that happened a long time ago.
Now:-----
NEW DELHI: The Tejas still has 19 unresolved issues - including nose wheel vibrations, high noise level in the cockpit -- which need to be sorted out. "The HAL (the manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) and IAF are working closely to sort out these issues, we expect them to go through it quickly," ......test pilots manning the squadron will work closely with HAL to "deal with the niggling issues," .

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Thanks for the clarification.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
That news report from NDTV says that IAF is expected to lose 14 Squadrons over the new few years.
Is that correct ?
WTH
Is that correct ?
WTH
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
What is few yrs? 5-6 yrs. By then LCA and more MKI will fill in the gaps hopefully.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Known ones retiring by around 2022:Khalsa wrote:That news report from NDTV says that IAF is expected to lose 14 Squadrons over the new few years.
Is that correct ?
WTH
- 6 x MiG-21 Bison squadrons
- 2 x MiG-27 MLU squadrons
Confirmed orders through 2025:
- 6 x LCA Mk.1/A squadrons (target completion by 2025)
- 2 x Su-30MKI squadrons (last remaining batch to be delivered by 2019)
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
This has been a long road from the time US sanctions took effect to the first two planes forming an active squadron in IAF colors. It is time to rejoice!
Sure like other posters pointed out earlier 1. How many planes in IAF have refueling capablities today? 2. How many refuelers do we really have? 3. What tasking are you going to put Tejas on that really requires refulers.
Note that it always costs 10X per gallon in air than on ground if you are refueling every bit the refueler is carrying. It costs astronomically more if you take off to just refuel one plane.
Sure like other posters pointed out earlier 1. How many planes in IAF have refueling capablities today? 2. How many refuelers do we really have? 3. What tasking are you going to put Tejas on that really requires refulers.
Note that it always costs 10X per gallon in air than on ground if you are refueling every bit the refueler is carrying. It costs astronomically more if you take off to just refuel one plane.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
It depends on the capability of the refulers. example, the airbus 330 is 111T. so, if we consider MKI has max capacity of 9500kgs or lets approx 10Ts then it refuel about 11 MKIs in one ops. It must return to base refuel itself.
One airbus can take care of 44 LCAs for one flight.
Just thinking if all jets need mid-air refueling on a hypothetical ops.
One airbus can take care of 44 LCAs for one flight.
Just thinking if all jets need mid-air refueling on a hypothetical ops.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Any idea on how much time does one Su30MKI take to refuel from an almost empty tank? Is there a video where Su30MKI is being refueled by Indian refuelers? Are all Su30MKI being upgraded to have refuelling capability? Whether each IAF pilot eventually get to train for refuelling?
Sorry, the questions seem to be for 30MKI but they will also probably hold true for Tejas. Hence, I hope my questions won't derail thread.
Sorry, the questions seem to be for 30MKI but they will also probably hold true for Tejas. Hence, I hope my questions won't derail thread.
SaiK wrote:It depends on the capability of the refulers. example, the airbus 330 is 111T. so, if we consider MKI has max capacity of 9500kgs or lets approx 10Ts then it refuel about 11 MKIs in one ops. It must return to base refuel itself.
One airbus can take care of 44 LCAs for one flight.
Just thinking if all jets need mid-air refueling on a hypothetical ops.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Can someone tell me how refuellers may be used with the Tejas in a conflict with Pakistan? Just a rough scenario of what will be done. The reason I ask is that I will be posing questions about the scenario if it appears that the refueller itself is close enough to the border to be at risk from Pakistani aircraft.
How far away from dangerous airspace do refuellers have to stay? I do not for a minute believe that a cocoon of fighters protecting a refueller would be good enough to stop a stray missile from taking it down - so that option is out. But if refuellers are going to be used after we achieve total air dominance, what use will they be in the early days of war?
How far away from dangerous airspace do refuellers have to stay? I do not for a minute believe that a cocoon of fighters protecting a refueller would be good enough to stop a stray missile from taking it down - so that option is out. But if refuellers are going to be used after we achieve total air dominance, what use will they be in the early days of war?
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
With a paltry 6 refuelers this should be #20 on the list of worries
Other things like noise, vibration, fuel system leaks etc are far more key
Other things like noise, vibration, fuel system leaks etc are far more key
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Did you notice something? These things like "noise, vibration" etc have suddenly and magically appeared now as if they are big issues. It is difficult to miss anything about LCA while following BRF and the first refs I saw to this was a few days ago along with the mildly derisive note that the first squadron will start with two aircraft.Singha wrote:With a paltry 6 refuelers this should be #20 on the list of worries
Other things like noise, vibration, fuel system leaks etc are far more key
I looked up the history of the MiG 21. The first squadron started with 6 aircraft shipped from the USSR. Those aircraft only had the capability to deliver unguided rockets and bombs. No radar. Mo mijjile. No bandook. Two collided and crashed during rehearsals for Republic Day flypast.
Will try and look up the early days of the Gnat.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
^Gwalior! Assuming LCAs based in B'glore will be used today.
Basically, for Tejas to use the refuellers in the early days of the war will be for Tejas taking off from B'glore will get refuelled near Gwalior on their way to Lahore and back to Gwalior and back to B'glore.
Note that Gwalior is at the extreme edge of the ferry range of Tejas and will require a drop tank (or two) to ensure there is enough reserves. Lahore is outside the combat radius of Tejas, but again a drop tank will provide the extra margin.
The refueller itself will be circling between Agra - Gwalior basically well inside the Indian airspace.
In a complete air domination achieved by India., LCAs can be moved to Pathankot to threaten Peshawar., which is just inside the combat radius of LCA.
Interestingly., Gwalior/Agra can be used as fulcrum to swing the LCAs towards Leh! Agra-Leh is outside the combat radius of LCA., but again with a drop-tank (or two)., Agra-Leh/Agra-Kargil can be achieved.
In a nut-shell., the three-legged cheetah will be able to roar like a tigress with a little help from a refueller., from day one (with a refueller probe!)
Basically, for Tejas to use the refuellers in the early days of the war will be for Tejas taking off from B'glore will get refuelled near Gwalior on their way to Lahore and back to Gwalior and back to B'glore.
Note that Gwalior is at the extreme edge of the ferry range of Tejas and will require a drop tank (or two) to ensure there is enough reserves. Lahore is outside the combat radius of Tejas, but again a drop tank will provide the extra margin.
The refueller itself will be circling between Agra - Gwalior basically well inside the Indian airspace.
In a complete air domination achieved by India., LCAs can be moved to Pathankot to threaten Peshawar., which is just inside the combat radius of LCA.
Interestingly., Gwalior/Agra can be used as fulcrum to swing the LCAs towards Leh! Agra-Leh is outside the combat radius of LCA., but again with a drop-tank (or two)., Agra-Leh/Agra-Kargil can be achieved.
In a nut-shell., the three-legged cheetah will be able to roar like a tigress with a little help from a refueller., from day one (with a refueller probe!)
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
shiv wrote: Will try and look up the early days of the Gnat.

Check out the induction of Jaguar! I had once pasted an article from India today (it is not showing up in google cache anymore) that clearly stated that when Jaguar was inducted into IAF., it did not even had any rocket pods!!
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Don't just calculate fuel and number of planes. Also calculate how long it takes to line up (can be weather dependent), connect, fuel, disconnect and set up the next one for connection.SaiK wrote:It depends on the capability of the refulers. example, the airbus 330 is 111T. so, if we consider MKI has max capacity of 9500kgs or lets approx 10Ts then it refuel about 11 MKIs in one ops. It must return to base refuel itself.
One airbus can take care of 44 LCAs for one flight.
Just thinking if all jets need mid-air refueling on a hypothetical ops.
What happens when one of the fuel lines jam? or the probe lines jam and the probe doesn't make it out of the basket? Again during war, all High Value assets (HVAA) should have an escort and other air forces do not fly them without Air Cap (# dependent on type of asset) unless they are deep in protected air space with lots of reaction time for evasion or interception by friendly forces.
IMO, the fuel probe is good to have, but not necessary for most ops. Given other planes have refueling capabilities they will be tasked with long range interdiction, sead and other ops requiring refueling.
There is no earthly reason the plane cannot refuel on ground around MP or Rajasthan even if takes from Bangalore before going on final leg of tasking. It could even get loaded with missiles there to make it cheaper to wage the war. Every penny costs and the cheapest option will need to be taken during war if it ain't a one night stand/op!
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Large new structure is coming up next to existing LCA production facilities in the HAL airport. Sign of production capacity ramp-up?
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Some activity on the south side of the runway too. Presently, it is just leveling work.vonkabra wrote:Large new structure is coming up next to existing LCA production facilities in the HAL airport. Sign of production capacity ramp-up?
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
fighter pilots have noise cancelling headphones inbuilt into the helmets probably. and they wont be the cheap ones.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
According to AKM's article HAL on mission mode to ramp up Tejas production, the works are related to production expansion and squadron support:vonkabra wrote:Large new structure is coming up next to existing LCA production facilities in the HAL airport. Sign of production capacity ramp-up?
Production Support: (production planned to increase to 8 (or 12) within the next year or so)
- separate hangar for assembly line (to be completed by June, 2016) -> this would likely double current capacity of around 6 Jigs to 12 Jigs
- state-of-the-art painting hangar
- Tarmac upgradation
- new customer service block
- dedicated fuel slush hangar
- rain water system check facility
...
The Tejas Division itself is on expansion mode with a state-of-the-art painting hangar already in. A separate hangar for assembly line is expected to be completed by June.
Tarmac upgradation process also has begun for supporting squadron operations. A new customer service block is coming up. A dedicated fuel slush hangar and rain water system check facility is also in.
...
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Srai - Thanks for info.
It explains why SP-2 took longer but IOC2 was given on Dec 2013 and service certificate was given by Anthony ji to Browne in the ceremony. So, from customer (IAF) perspective, customer didn't get the delivery (SP-1), of IOC-2 quality, from the seller. How will this be resolved in books/record keeping? Will IAF write off SP1 as bad asset (~ 25 Million$)? And what IAF is going to do with SP1 if it is not going to be used for squadron formation?
And isn't there an agency (CEMILAC?) which certifies the plane to be of certain quality before it is flown either by HAL or IAF? Or, agency only certifies for flying but not necessarily the build quality of certain standard?
It explains why SP-2 took longer but IOC2 was given on Dec 2013 and service certificate was given by Anthony ji to Browne in the ceremony. So, from customer (IAF) perspective, customer didn't get the delivery (SP-1), of IOC-2 quality, from the seller. How will this be resolved in books/record keeping? Will IAF write off SP1 as bad asset (~ 25 Million$)? And what IAF is going to do with SP1 if it is not going to be used for squadron formation?
And isn't there an agency (CEMILAC?) which certifies the plane to be of certain quality before it is flown either by HAL or IAF? Or, agency only certifies for flying but not necessarily the build quality of certain standard?
srai wrote:^^^
It would seem SP-2 went through a complete re-build to IOC-2 standards. SP-1 was much further along before IOC-2 certification was obtained and was taken to completion with as much IOC-2 as feasible. However as the IAF has stated, they will not use SP-1 for squadron formation since the build standard is not completely IOC-2. In the same light, SP-2 could have been delivered quicker without full adherence to IOC-2 standard but then would have faced the same fate as SP-1. But now, if full IOC-2 build specs, SP-2 would be able to be used for squadron formation.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
^^^
SP-1 will be joining LSP-7 and LSP-8 for evaluation flights with the IAF's ASTE.
Tejas Induction into Air Force to Take More Time
SP-1 will be joining LSP-7 and LSP-8 for evaluation flights with the IAF's ASTE.
Tejas Induction into Air Force to Take More Time
20th December 2013
...
Sources monitoring the Tejas programme said that, HAL’s promise of delivering the first production variant of Tejas (SP-1) by March 2014 might be little far-fetched. “We hope to have the first aircraft by end by mid of 2014. The first two aircraft (SP-1, SP-2) might not meet our standards for squadron formation as the metal cutting and hardware were done before we froze the IOC-2 test points. We will raise the first Tejas squadron with four aircraft starting from SP-3 to SP-6,” a top source said. The IAF will use SP-1 and SP-2 for evaluation flight to be undertaken by the test pilots of Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE). The limited series production variants LSP-7 and LSP-8 too will be used for evaluation flights by the IAF.
...
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
How dare you compare a phoren gora man product with a miserble brown pant contraption ?disha wrote:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=2004498#shiv wrote: Will try and look up the early days of the Gnat.
Anything Desi is derisive. Like LCA Tejas has been inducted with an empty cockpit where the pilot is supposed to sit!
Check out the induction of Jaguar! I had once pasted an article from India today (it is not showing up in google cache anymore) that clearly stated that when Jaguar was inducted into IAF., it did not even had any rocket pods!!
Have you no (in) humanitarian feelings ? Can't you see the kickbacks flying away when the Tejas flies straight and true ?
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Dr Shivshiv wrote:Did you notice something? These things like "noise, vibration" etc have suddenly and magically appeared now as if they are big issues. It is difficult to miss anything about LCA while following BRF and the first refs I saw to this was a few days ago along with the mildly derisive note that the first squadron will start with two aircraft.Singha wrote:With a paltry 6 refuelers this should be #20 on the list of worries
Other things like noise, vibration, fuel system leaks etc are far more key
I looked up the history of the MiG 21. The first squadron started with 6 aircraft shipped from the USSR. Those aircraft only had the capability to deliver unguided rockets and bombs. No radar. Mo mijjile. No bandook. Two collided and crashed during rehearsals for Republic Day flypast.
Will try and look up the early days of the Gnat.
How dare you compare a phoren gora Russian maal product with a miserble brown pant contraption ?
Have you no (in) humanitarian feelings ? Can't you see the kickbacks flying away when the Tejas flies straight and true ?
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
cybaru, all those are ops params. delta time. these refuelers should pump about 2-5k lit per min.
and those exceptional situations are exceptions.. any ops is hampered by faulty systems. so the reason, we pay attention to MTBF, quality, maint schedule etc.
it was a ball park on empty to full - fillings
----
against chips, we need to double the refulers as and when comms receive backup needed at say 50% fuel stock levels.
--------------
it would be interesting to see one ops happen from our lands for massan mils. we can gather data I suppose under LSA signed up.
not sure, if they mean it! meaning to tame India or tame chippandas
and those exceptional situations are exceptions.. any ops is hampered by faulty systems. so the reason, we pay attention to MTBF, quality, maint schedule etc.
it was a ball park on empty to full - fillings

----
against chips, we need to double the refulers as and when comms receive backup needed at say 50% fuel stock levels.
--------------
it would be interesting to see one ops happen from our lands for massan mils. we can gather data I suppose under LSA signed up.
not sure, if they mean it! meaning to tame India or tame chippandas
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Kersi I can see that you are joking, but there is a more serious side.Kersi D wrote:
How dare you compare a phoren gora Russian maal product with a miserble brown pant contraption ?
Have you no (in) humanitarian feelings ? Can't you see the kickbacks flying away when the Tejas flies straight and true ?
No organization will maintain an institutional memory of all the selection and induction sagas that have been done long ago. Imagine a schoolboy on BRF from 2000. Today in 2016 he may be a fighter pilot in his 30s. He will know how to fly and fight. He may know some squadron history. But he is unlikely to know details of the problems of induction of Vampire, Gnat, HF 24 or MiG21. These are for history buffs and old codgers. We have a role here and I believe that our role must not be to mock and pillory and criticize, but point out what has happened in the past so people AND air force personnel know that the actual history of induction of various aircraft has a whole lot of stories. I am sure mess parties and formal events do give younger pilots some insight. But few people can be like you or me or Jagan & others simply because we have spent decades following this up from the 60s in some cases.
The air force of yesterdaay wanted a good machine. Salesmen gave them half baked machines from abroad but IAF (and our technicians/engineers) gradually made them into great machines that still serve. I am sure the IAF can do that with the Tejas. Like 1962 the IAF wants good machines today and salesmen are trying to sell them machines from abroad sometimes snake oil. But it is wrong to say that the Air Force was happy with gora maal in 1962 and unhappy with desi maal in 2016 because it is a different generation, but the same teething troubles.
Only people who have seen the evolution over decades can get a sense of history and we have a duty to try and create awareness.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
shiv,
Really stepping out of the comfort zone here, but this also needs to be ingrained like the aspects in your post:
-- This is a rock and hard place situation. It is deliberately created. It is a distraction.
-- There is corruption in the procurement chain. Like everywhere else. Induction of this machine is delayed for *good* reasons by the procurement chain, otherwise waivers could have been issued AND on lower cost an armed hawk type LCA could have been in service numbers by now. With improved variants actually acting like they want to meet the specifications laid.
-- There is a distinction between the "regime" of the IAF and the "regime" of the MoD, and the "regime" of relatives of politicians wanting sub contracts from "offsets". They are not representative of the IAF, MoD, or the governmand. But they are the spokespeople. Real people have their mouth taped shut the day they sign on the dotted line.
-- There is a need for "regime" change re. above.
-- Home grown vegetables are always fresher, cheaper, tastier.
-- Home grown vegetables do not come in fancy packaging.
This wont be the first time another promising platform (arrow, lavi, whatever) is made less relevent by a procurement "regime" but it will likely be the first time a negotiation device that it was reduced to (for controlling the prices of natashas) will actually see service.
There are issues with everything, including the famous left testimonial, which I am told is quite inferior to imported testimonials. It is also of an older generation. It is not upgradable. But it still is relevent. It is still needed. With just one left testimonial (or 2 plane squadron) careless betting (reckless testing) is hazardous. Clone the left testimonial and avenues for betting it are countless. The analogy carries farther than I thought. The platfrom needs to be treated like the left testimonial. Essential, protected, but still worth betting in case of a strategic interest.
There is no shame in admitting that the procurement process did serve interests that were not friendly to said left testimonial. Reasons may be questioned. Like Bofors, or st. kitts or AW101, or westlands the original movie. Nothing is ever proven to be beyond oubt for those wanting two sides to an argument. Yet there is evidence beyond reasonable doubt that smokescreens are manmade, not brush fire. There is no reason to believe, as you rightly note, that snake oil was ever in cheap supply.
Numbers arriving about 20 years late is a victory for "them". Numbers becoming totally irrelevent? Beyond even their expectations.
I guess I am trying to say as long as the whining is against the procurement "regime", it is ok?
Really stepping out of the comfort zone here, but this also needs to be ingrained like the aspects in your post:
-- This is a rock and hard place situation. It is deliberately created. It is a distraction.
-- There is corruption in the procurement chain. Like everywhere else. Induction of this machine is delayed for *good* reasons by the procurement chain, otherwise waivers could have been issued AND on lower cost an armed hawk type LCA could have been in service numbers by now. With improved variants actually acting like they want to meet the specifications laid.
-- There is a distinction between the "regime" of the IAF and the "regime" of the MoD, and the "regime" of relatives of politicians wanting sub contracts from "offsets". They are not representative of the IAF, MoD, or the governmand. But they are the spokespeople. Real people have their mouth taped shut the day they sign on the dotted line.
-- There is a need for "regime" change re. above.
-- Home grown vegetables are always fresher, cheaper, tastier.
-- Home grown vegetables do not come in fancy packaging.
This wont be the first time another promising platform (arrow, lavi, whatever) is made less relevent by a procurement "regime" but it will likely be the first time a negotiation device that it was reduced to (for controlling the prices of natashas) will actually see service.
There are issues with everything, including the famous left testimonial, which I am told is quite inferior to imported testimonials. It is also of an older generation. It is not upgradable. But it still is relevent. It is still needed. With just one left testimonial (or 2 plane squadron) careless betting (reckless testing) is hazardous. Clone the left testimonial and avenues for betting it are countless. The analogy carries farther than I thought. The platfrom needs to be treated like the left testimonial. Essential, protected, but still worth betting in case of a strategic interest.
There is no shame in admitting that the procurement process did serve interests that were not friendly to said left testimonial. Reasons may be questioned. Like Bofors, or st. kitts or AW101, or westlands the original movie. Nothing is ever proven to be beyond oubt for those wanting two sides to an argument. Yet there is evidence beyond reasonable doubt that smokescreens are manmade, not brush fire. There is no reason to believe, as you rightly note, that snake oil was ever in cheap supply.
Numbers arriving about 20 years late is a victory for "them". Numbers becoming totally irrelevent? Beyond even their expectations.
I guess I am trying to say as long as the whining is against the procurement "regime", it is ok?
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
I guess that sums it up.Shreeman wrote: I guess I am trying to say as long as the whining is against the procurement "regime", it is ok?
The point that I keep repeating is that the IAF "made do" with what they got from abroad in earlier years. But "making do" with less than perfect stuff (but manufactured at home) became a habit with European, Russian and American forces starting from WW1. Over a century now.
One of the few things I watch on TV is "Pawn stars" - which I am guessing is known to others on here. What fascinates me is how any old item that is "Made in America" automatically gains value. We Indians have a sepoy mentality where we cannot relate to our own stuff. Or left testimonials can easily be traded for shrivelled prunes being sold as potent testimonials. Funnily enough - and this is totally OT - I am having a Teetar conversation about ads in India that show a total colonized Sepoy mentality. Maybe I will post examples on another thread.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Something is seriously wrong with IAF. We are severely out numbered by PLAAF (PAF is in $hit, but that should be of less comfort, PLAA may get bogged by Himalayas, but IAF has no such comfort). There is SU30MKI waiting to be taken (an ordered more), but IAF is dithering, It is retiring PROBLEMATIC Mig 27 (same age as Jags/Mirage, in fact younger, and our only true CAS panes), when it is short on number and no viable CAS replacement (instead of working on getting its problem removed, a la Mig 21, the Mig21Bs do not crash as often anymore), reluctant to induct LCA. All is wants is Rafaale, as much as that IAF chief is acting as a 2 year old, who refuses to learn the next letter B (as in no plan
. Wonder what is going on

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
That's sheer wastage to fly all the way to Lahore to bomb something. Just transfer some Artillery and rockets to the border and flatten Lahore.Basically, for Tejas to use the refuellers in the early days of the war will be for Tejas taking off from B'glore will get refuelled near Gwalior on their way to Lahore
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
we would not need much of the air-refulers for paki ops. may be a few like 3-4 for some deeper strikes. that also means we need much more stealthier airframes like LCA Mk3.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
The IAF and IN have always prided themselves of Juggad with Phoren stuff.
I remember reading so much coupling French weapon with Russian Rails , English rails with French Missiles.
When it comes to Indian stuff, they are found to be lacking in their enthusiasm.
Well for the Tejas programme I look forward to the oldest service arm again leading the way.
However they will come around.
Remember this always, we are being taken off drugs that we have been on 60 years. Drugs of imported stuff.
The body will twitch, jerk and refuse to do work.
I remember reading so much coupling French weapon with Russian Rails , English rails with French Missiles.
When it comes to Indian stuff, they are found to be lacking in their enthusiasm.
Well for the Tejas programme I look forward to the oldest service arm again leading the way.
However they will come around.
Remember this always, we are being taken off drugs that we have been on 60 years. Drugs of imported stuff.
The body will twitch, jerk and refuse to do work.
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Bhaskar_T, Can you look at India-Africa thread?
Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
SBajwa wrote:That's sheer wastage to fly all the way to Lahore to bomb something. Just transfer some Artillery and rockets to the border and flatten Lahore.Basically, for Tejas to use the refuellers in the early days of the war will be for Tejas taking off from B'glore will get refuelled near Gwalior on their way to Lahore

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions
Just found out solution to vibrations of LCA Improving the Arjun's already great suspension
From blogpost broadsword by Ajai Shukla
Just add this part to where the landing gear meets the fuselage. We don't need to drive LCA like khatara with sign that says "buri nazarwale tera muh kala". Add AC as well.
Actually the important part is this paragraph
From blogpost broadsword by Ajai Shukla
Just add this part to where the landing gear meets the fuselage. We don't need to drive LCA like khatara with sign that says "buri nazarwale tera muh kala". Add AC as well.
Actually the important part is this paragraph
It is true that almost 60% of the cost of the Arjun goes on imported components. Practically all of that goes on just three components --- the power pack; the gunner's main sight (GMS); and the gun control equipment (GCE). Almost all the Arjun's other 10,000-odd component are sourced from Indian industry, which is rising to the challenge. More support from the government, in terms of better procurement procedures, would accelerate this.