BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2276
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 23 Aug 2018 11:31

ramana wrote:
Is it due to pipeline corrosion in saline soil?


At a loss to think what else it could be. Assuming that the pipeline is off a buried type.

ramana wrote:They could look at alternate materials for the pipeline as it carries water only.
Cement or PVC.


+1. Over a long term the costs factor will also be in favor of the pipeline.

vipins
BRFite
Posts: 447
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 17:46

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby vipins » 24 Aug 2018 02:22

Manish_P wrote:
ramana wrote:
Is it due to pipeline corrosion in saline soil?


At a loss to think what else it could be. Assuming that the pipeline is off a buried type.

ramana wrote:They could look at alternate materials for the pipeline as it carries water only.
Cement or PVC.


+1. Over a long term the costs factor will also be in favor of the pipeline.

Not sure about the article as there is already a pipeline on little elevated small pillars all along the road leading to vighakote post.
Although water supply is not started as of now and tankers are used.
They are also used to provide water to wild animals on the way to post.Camera/mobile is not allowed after India bridge,its a 80KM run upto the post and can be visited by taking permission from BSF kutch HQ.True salt desert is at this place after India bridge,taking right turn from chidiya more towards hanuman temple.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2624
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Vips » 05 Sep 2018 03:51

Central paramilitary forces, special police units get 36,000 modern AK-series assault rifles defence.

A stockpile of over 36,000 modern AK-series assault rifles have been recently provided to central paramilitary forces and select state police units, a senior official said Tuesday.

The official, who is part of the security establishment under the Union home ministry, said the weapons have been procured from Bulgaria after a global tender was completed successfully sometime back.

“These AK-47 rifles are now being sent to multiple Central Armed Police Forces (CAPFs) and state police units who were part of the joint tender. A good bulk of these weapons will go to the CRPF and BSF who have to deal with internal security challenges, guard the border and tackle Left-wing extremism and militants and terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir,” the official, who requested anonymity, said.

This series of assault rifles are increasingly being preferred by the security forces due to their utility in all-weather conditions, good rate of fire and ease of adaptability in multifarious combat zones, the official said.

These rifles are considered superior to the indigenously made INSAS rifles (Indian Small Arms System) as their fire is accurate, spews quick round of bullets and is better to operate in jungle warfare conditions where moisture and heat affect the performance of a rifle, he said.

Keeping this in mind, the central paramilitary forces and the state police forces had expressed desire to purchase the AK (Avtomat Kalashnikova) series rifles for their jungle warfare and special task units and the Union home ministry had then clubbed their requirements and floated a global tender, he said. The tender was open for bidding about a year back and the delivery of the assault weapons, which have some enhancement in their basic features, has now begun, he said.

When contacted, a senior CRPF officer told PTI that the weapons will be provided to their combat units in Jammu and Kashmir and anti-Naxal operation areas in a month’s time. The Union government had last year authorised the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), the country’s largest CAPF with over 3-lakh personnel, to replace almost all of its INSAS weapons with AK assault rifles in the ten Maoist violence-hit states where it is deployed to undertake offensive operations.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 841
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 19 Sep 2018 04:40

Another BSF soldier killed by porki sniper, RIP Braveheart. Twitter is flooded with comments of mutilation.

What BSF and army needs is counter sniper and sniper ops on steroids. Need to analyze on what can be done to increase our sniper fire effectively at the same time countering enemy snipers

vimal
BRFite
Posts: 449
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby vimal » 19 Sep 2018 04:52

Vips wrote:Central paramilitary forces, special police units get 36,000 modern AK-series assault rifles defence.

A stockpile of over 36,000 modern AK-series assault rifles have been recently provided to central paramilitary forces and select state police units, a senior official said Tuesday.

This series of assault rifles are increasingly being preferred by the security forces due to their utility in all-weather conditions, good rate of fire and ease of adaptability in multifarious combat zones, the official said.

These rifles are considered superior to the indigenously made INSAS rifles (Indian Small Arms System) as their fire is accurate, spews quick round of bullets and is better to operate in jungle warfare conditions where moisture and heat affect the performance of a rifle, he said.

Keeping this in mind, the central paramilitary forces and the state police forces had expressed desire to purchase the AK (Avtomat Kalashnikova) series rifles for their jungle warfare and special task units and the Union home ministry had then clubbed their requirements and floated a global tender, he said. The tender was open for bidding about a year back and the delivery of the assault weapons, which have some enhancement in their basic features, has now begun, he said.

When contacted, a senior CRPF officer told PTI that the weapons will be provided to their combat units in Jammu and Kashmir and anti-Naxal operation areas in a month’s time. The Union government had last year authorised the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), the country’s largest CAPF with over 3-lakh personnel, to replace almost all of its INSAS weapons with AK assault rifles in the ten Maoist violence-hit states where it is deployed to undertake offensive operations.


Isn't IA also working in the same environment as CRPF? So does that mean INSAS does not work in jungle warfare, heat, moisture or dust?
Then INSAS should've been phased out 10 years ago? :roll:
Import at all cost.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1069
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Sep 2018 09:27

krishna_krishna wrote:Another BSF soldier killed by porki sniper, RIP Braveheart. Twitter is flooded with comments of mutilation.

What BSF and army needs is counter sniper and sniper ops on steroids. Need to analyze on what can be done to increase our sniper fire effectively at the same time countering enemy snipers

Pray tell what would you suggest. You almost sound like the local formation commanders at all levels twiddle their thumbs!

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11846
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2018 10:13

We need to increase the amount of pain to them and somehow find means to target artillery and thier motors, basically improve accross the board with MP ATGM, tanks, ATGM, long Night Vision detection equipment, good counter battery radars, increased motors 105 mm, 155 mm artillery, UAV, Helicopters, satellite survelliance, lots of 12.7mm machine guns, anti material rifles, sniper rifles.

They should learn like Operation Parakram, that should sue for peace. RIght now they are not deterred enough. Sniper VS sniper is a stupid way to tie our hands, we must be able to inflict causualties, quickly locate the approxumate direction in which the sniper fires from, bombard the area with artillery motor to flush out the sniper and take him out even with an ATGM if required.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 841
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 19 Sep 2018 18:47

ks_sachin wrote: You almost sound like the local formation commanders at all levels twiddle their thumbs!



I am not the local formation commander so lets leave it that that. Just to give you a sample of what I am suggesting let me tell you a small story :

There was a terroristan officer giving tour to Swedish officer (not sure it was as part of UNMOGIP or not). He was standing next to Swedish officer and viewing through binoculars, he was shot in a way that the brains were out and all over the other officer. From that point onwards check how many observers came from that country. This is a true story.

Few more samples :

https://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/jam ... 70004.html

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/india-hit ... ad-on-loc/

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1069
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Sep 2018 19:52

Which only shows that we dont sit with our hands in our pants!
They guys on the ground retaliate.
Guarding against sniper fire is not easy.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1069
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Sep 2018 19:55

Aditya_V wrote:We need to increase the amount of pain to them and somehow find means to target artillery and thier motors, basically improve accross the board with MP ATGM, tanks, ATGM, long Night Vision detection equipment, good counter battery radars, increased motors 105 mm, 155 mm artillery, UAV, Helicopters, satellite survelliance, lots of 12.7mm machine guns, anti material rifles, sniper rifles.

They should learn like Operation Parakram, that should sue for peace. RIght now they are not deterred enough. Sniper VS sniper is a stupid way to tie our hands, we must be able to inflict causualties, quickly locate the approxumate direction in which the sniper fires from, bombard the area with artillery motor to flush out the sniper and take him out even with an ATGM if required.

A first part does not answer the question regardi g sniping.
The second part pray tell how that would work practically.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11846
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Oct 2018 16:31

This is sickening, shooting a man talking to his family.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/ssb-jawan-killed-sniper-fire-militants-pulwama/

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11846
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Oct 2018 10:30

So the Sniper with the M-4 carbine shooting security forces was a Nephew of Masood Azhar- Usman and has been despatched

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/jaish-chiefs-nephew-killed-in-tral-encounter/articleshow/66436320.cms

I think Hafiz Sayed and Masood Azhar rather than sending thier nephews should send thier sons to crossing the LOC by Publishing the time and date first.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 20:34

Is this in the same area as the recent shooting death of Indian soldier from a head shot that penetrated the Kevlar helmet?

M4 is accurate to 500m and was used to 800m in Afghanistan. Also its bullet is designed to penetrate body armor with its steel core.
Vicky Nanjappa says these M4s are Taliban snatched US weapons in Afghanistan.

There was recent reports of M4 being available to the Paki terrorists in Kashmir.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 20:38

Looks like it.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1669
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 01 Nov 2018 02:21

ramana wrote:Is this in the same area as the recent shooting death of Indian soldier from a head shot that penetrated the Kevlar helmet?

M4 is accurate to 500m and was used to 800m in Afghanistan. Also its bullet is designed to penetrate body armor with its steel core.
Vicky Nanjappa says these M4s are Taliban snatched US weapons in Afghanistan.

There was recent reports of M4 being available to the Paki terrorists in Kashmir.


I am not sure if it is ...i.e. the first part of your question Ramana.
Why ?
that was a special forces soldier who died and was possibly on patrol outside.
This sniper related kill seems to be inside the camp.


Also the Helmet was Kevlar but of the old type and make.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3470
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Nov 2018 10:14

Aditya_V wrote:So the Sniper with the M-4 carbine shooting security forces was a Nephew of Masood Azhar- Usman and has been despatched

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/jaish-chiefs-nephew-killed-in-tral-encounter/articleshow/66436320.cms

I think Hafiz Sayed and Masood Azhar rather than sending thier nephews should send thier sons to crossing the LOC by Publishing the time and date first.

For that we need to send our boys/tools to do the job

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Nov 2018 19:56

Aditya_V wrote:This is sickening, shooting a man talking to his family.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/ssb-jawan-killed-sniper-fire-militants-pulwama/


All reports indicate menace from Oct 2018. Glad its neutralized.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8787
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:36

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 3182530560 ---> ITBP personnel doing martial art and unarmed combat strengthening training on banks of Bhagirathi. Training in sand&water. From all the years I have covered security forces, I can indeed say that ITBP personnel, especially their commandos, are very good at their job.

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 3010413568 ---> More training videos.

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 3010413568 ---> And one more.

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 23 Nov 2018 15:15

https://www.newskarnataka.com/mangalore ... er-centres

raf-to-be-housed-in-mangalore-among-five-other-centres

Five new battalions of Rapid Action Force (RAF) will be set up
Varanasi (UP),
Jaipur (Rajasthan),
Mangalore (Karnataka),
Hajipur (Bihar) and
Nuh (Haryana).

With these, the total number of RAF battalions in the country goes up to 15.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1614
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 24 Nov 2018 22:31

ramana wrote:Is this in the same area as the recent shooting death of Indian soldier from a head shot that penetrated the Kevlar helmet?

M4 is accurate to 500m and was used to 800m in Afghanistan. Also its bullet is designed to penetrate body armor with its steel core.
Vicky Nanjappa says these M4s are Taliban snatched US weapons in Afghanistan.

There was recent reports of M4 being available to the Paki terrorists in Kashmir.


Ramana, 5.56 nato being used up to 800 meters is not feasible. Even at 500 meters even slightest amount of wind will take the light 5.56 projectile off course. Launched from a short barrel m4, is going to make the task even more difficult. It is possible to achieve those ranges and accuracy with match grade ammunition, not standard military issue. The combat effective (not calibrated or best case scenario) range of m4 is at best 300-350 meters, that too with well trained shooters and some optics.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Nov 2018 01:32

So the M4 rifle is red herring.
Or the terrorist was much closer under cover.

or Something more potent was used by the terrorists.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8787
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jan 2019 05:23

VIDEO

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1089778052077367297 ---> Indo-Tibetan Border Police personnel practice martial arts at 11,000 feet in Uttarakhand's Auli.

https://twitter.com/manjeetnegilive/sta ... 3902075906 ---> Happy Republic Day 2019! ITBP official personnel known as Himveers celebrating Republic Day 2019 at Himalayan Heights 18,000 feet in Ladakh. Temperatures dips as many as minus 30 degree Celsius.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2624
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Vips » 27 Mar 2019 04:50

Cochin Shipyard wins govt order worth Rs. 270 crore for supply of Nine floating border outposts to BSF.

Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) has received a formal letter of Acceptance of Tender for 9 Floating Broader Outpost Vessels (FBOPs) from the Ministry of Home Affairs, India. The order for these 9 vessels is worth Rs. 270 crore.

CSL has bagged the order against stiff domestic competitive tender process participated by other shipyards. These boats will eventually join the water wing of Broader Security Force (BSF). The first set of 3 FBOPs are to be delivered within 18 months and subsequent batches of 3 each in 9 months intervals.

The details of the designing of these vessels include that the vessel will have 46 metres length and 12 metres width. They need to be capable of working in a very low draft of upto 1.2 metres and will be equipped with 4 fast patrol boats that can be launched and hoisted using Davit system. The other specifications for the vessel include accommodating 38 men on board. The FBOPs will be equipped with necessary navigation, communication and surveillance systems besides other modern facilities.

Through this order, CSL has an opportunity to prove its capability in the defence vessel construction segment and its commitment to support the new projects of various Indian Defence organisations for Maritime Security.

Image
Image: India Today (file)An FBOP of an earlier variant operated by the BSF


darshan
BRFite
Posts: 1480
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby darshan » 23 Jun 2019 01:30


darshan
BRFite
Posts: 1480
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby darshan » 22 Aug 2019 07:40

One BSF jawan killed and another injured in clashes with cattle smugglers along Bangladesh border - Opindia News
https://www.opindia.com/2019/08/one-bsf ... sh-border/
Two separate skirmishes between cattle smugglers and security forces along the Bangladesh border in Assam and West Bengal has led to the death of a BSF soldier and critical injury to another jawan respectively.

The incident along the Assam-Bangladesh border, in which a BSF jawan lost his life, took place on Sunday when Inspector Sanjay Kumar Sadhu fell into the Brahmaputra river in Dhubri while chasing cattle smugglers. Sadhu, 35, belonged to the sixth battalion of the Border Security Force. The inspector, native of Vadodara district in Gujarat, is survived by his wife, two daughters and a son, a senior official said. The wide Brahmaputra river in Dhubri district in Assam is a preferred route of smugglers and illegal immigrants. Although the river is patroled at the border, it is so wide that security forces are evaded by transpassers.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2938
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 22 Aug 2019 22:10

While there are other higher priority things on Shri Amit Shah's mind, I seriously wish the BSF conducts operations to end this nonsense.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Aug 2019 00:30

tsarkar wrote:While there are other higher priority things on Shri Amit Shah's mind, I seriously wish the BSF conducts operations to end this nonsense.


Cattle smuggling has demand and supply factors.
BSF is only in last mile operations.
Add religious angle of the cattle smugglers.

Also something has to be done on the supply side also.

Some folks in Panvel are adopting cattle to end the need to sell the cattle.

This type of activity has to be nationwide.

Also in the last para:

The porous border along Bangladesh is often used by cattle smugglers to illegally transport cattle from India to Bangladesh. Recently, the BSF discovered a new method adopted by smugglers to smuggle cattle across the border. Smugglers are using flooded rivers to send cattle to the other side. It is estimated that thousands of cattle are smuggled every year to Bangladesh through the 2216 KM long porous border.

wig
BRFite
Posts: 1817
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby wig » 17 Oct 2019 18:53

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... vfKtN.html

BSF soldier shot dead by Bangladesh border guards after flag meeting
excerpts
This meeting took place at about 10.30 am; the BSF’s Post Commander along with 5 soldiers approached the BGB patrol in the water channel.
“During the flag meeting, the BGB patrol did not release Indian fisherman and also tried to cordon (gherao) BSF troops,” the spokesperson said.
“Sensing the situation (was) worsening, BSF party immediately returned… BGB troops opened fire on the returning BSF party,” the BSF said.

Head Constable Vijay Bhan Singh received bullet injuries on his head. A constable, who was a crew member on the boat, received bullet injuries on his right hand.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1808
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 17 Oct 2019 22:07

wig wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/bsf-soldier-shot-dead-by-bangladesh-border-guards-after-flag-meeting/story-DFu6neVo5qdO2cFF8vfKtN.html

BSF soldier shot dead by Bangladesh border guards after flag meeting
excerpts
This meeting took place at about 10.30 am; the BSF’s Post Commander along with 5 soldiers approached the BGB patrol in the water channel.
“During the flag meeting, the BGB patrol did not release Indian fisherman and also tried to cordon (gherao) BSF troops,” the spokesperson said.
“Sensing the situation (was) worsening, BSF party immediately returned… BGB troops opened fire on the returning BSF party,” the BSF said.

Head Constable Vijay Bhan Singh received bullet injuries on his head. A constable, who was a crew member on the boat, received bullet injuries on his right hand.


This is disgusting.. They called the BSF for a flag meeting and murdered Vijay Bhan Singh in cold blood! Border Guards is the renamed Bangladesh Rifles after they murdered all of their officers. Thoroughly undisciplined force. Are these people serving in uniform or are barely disguised dacoits and smugglers?

At this level, going through Sheikh Haseena govt. may not be any good to establish a 'balance of terror'. Even if their officers see reason, or the leadership of Bangladesh is trying, these low level rambo shits may just not obey! A SF surgical strike that kills 20 of them may teach these guys some manners.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2019 22:15

Note the confused language.
The BSF party was returning when they got fired on by the BGB.
Basically shot at when withdrawing after hostile meeting.


I think there is a link to the murders going on in Murshidabad, Bengal.

wig
BRFite
Posts: 1817
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby wig » 23 Jan 2020 11:32

https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/parcel-b ... awan-held/

Parcel bomb accused BSF jawan held
A Border Security Force (BSF) jawan of 173 Battalion Headquarters suspected to be an expert in handling explosives was arrested by Samba police in connection with the delivery of parcel bomb at his camp in Panj Tila area of Samba district early this month and has been sent to Joint Interrogation Centre (JIC), official sources said here today.
The jawan identified as Samarpal and a native of Kolkata was detained from his residence in Hubli area of the city on January 10 and later arrested, sources said.

further
Sources said that the jawan has been sent to Joint Interrogation Centre (JIC) for sustained questioning to ascertain the sources where from he received the Improvised Explosive Device (IED) for making the parcel bomb.
A parcel containing an IED was delivered to the 173rd Battalion Headquarters of BSF at Panj Tila in Samba district on January 5, the police said. It was addressed to the Second in Command Gurvinder Singh and the sentry at the gate became suspicious about the parcel and he informed the officers. Later the Bomb Disposal Squad was put into service to defuse it, police added.

Shameek
BRFite
Posts: 791
Joined: 02 Jan 2009 20:44
Location: Ionosphere

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Shameek » 15 Feb 2020 21:38

Been a year since the Pulwama attacks. Putting in a prayer for everyone and their families.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23837
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 16 Feb 2020 08:48

We had a memorial meeting in Chennai on the 14th organized by Colours of Glory Foundation where veterans spoke to school children. There is a Capt. Killivalavan (Retd) of BSF who goes around to schools in Tamilnadu every single day to talk to children about para-military forces. Great service by him. He was given a standing ovation.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2020 05:07

https://ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm


Israeli Ruger 10/22 Suppressed Sniper Rifle
Sniper Weapons System
Sniper Weapons System – from left to right Ruger 10/22 suppressed, IMI Galil Sniper Rifle and a Mauser 86SR.

The Ruger 10/22 is a fully suppressed 0.22 caliber semi auto sniper rifle with a 10 rounds rotary magazine.

In 1987, the Intifada – the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories – broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.


The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon’s mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a “Hush Puppy” weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it’s original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it’s usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it’s suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it’s deployment was cut down dramatically.



May be they should have used a lesser muzzle velocity long rifle bullet as it comes in many varieties.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1614
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Mar 2020 09:57

ramana wrote:https://ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm


Israeli Ruger 10/22 Suppressed Sniper Rifle
Sniper Weapons System
Sniper Weapons System – from left to right Ruger 10/22 suppressed, IMI Galil Sniper Rifle and a Mauser 86SR.

The Ruger 10/22 is a fully suppressed 0.22 caliber semi auto sniper rifle with a 10 rounds rotary magazine.

In 1987, the Intifada – the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories – broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.


The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon’s mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a “Hush Puppy” weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it’s original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it’s usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it’s suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it’s deployment was cut down dramatically.



May be they should have used a lesser muzzle velocity long rifle bullet as it comes in many varieties.


No bullet is non lethal if it hits a major artery.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54261
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Mar 2020 03:42

True but it beats the old 0.303 which will kill many.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2624
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Vips » 15 Mar 2020 00:14

ITBP to set up new posts on China border.

The government has allowed Indo-Tibetan Border Police to create 47 additional border outposts and 12 ‘staging camps’ to step up vigil along the border with China, officials familiar with the development told ET.

The home ministry nod will also lead to creation of a strategic sector headquarter on the front and boost manpower and infrastructure along the China border, they said.The staging camps act as temporary border outposts (BOPs) for ITBP troops out on operations or patrols along the Himalayan frontier, and provide them rations, logistics and a place to stay.

ITBP had sought creation of staging camps to reduce the inter-BOP distance at the arduous border that experiences frequent blizzards and sub-zero temperatures, a home ministry official said.

At present, there are 180 BOPs along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with each outpost having about 100 soldiers, another official said.The new BOPs will be temperature-controlled and will help forces to counter transgressions by the Chinese army, the officials said. The new battalions will also help the border guarding force to better rotate troops from forward locations to units in the mainland. Currently, the troops are rotated every three months.

According to the home ministry, construction of roads in border area along the LAC has witnessed a major boost in the past five years. Eleven roads of total length of 277.5 km have been constructed in the first phase. Another 45 roads having a length of 1033.52 km have been approved for the second phase, officials said. Construction of 18 important tracks in Arunachal Pradesh has also been approved, they said.

ITBP is primarily responsible to guard the 3,488 km-long LAC with China that runs along the new union territory of Ladakh and states of Arunachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim and Himachal Pradesh. The total length of the border in Ladakh is 1,597 km, followed by 1,126 km in Arunachal Pradesh, 345 km in Uttarakhand, 220 km in Sikkim, and 200 km in Himachal.

The border is not fully demarcated and the process of clarifying and confirming the LAC is in progress, officials said.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2624
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Vips » 17 May 2020 05:22

BSF, India’s ‘First Line of Defence’, is Not Equipped to Face an Enemy Military Attack- N C Asthana(Retd ADG - ADG CRPF and BSF).

The Border Security Force (BSF) is widely projected as ‘India’s first line of defence’ against infiltration, smuggling and military assault in their official statements. Officially, its role is defined in expansive terms of ‘security of the border of India and matters connected therewith’. The tasks of the BSF are divided into peacetime and wartime. The peacetime tasks include preventing smuggling and any other illegal activity, and unauthorised entry into or exit from the territory of India, etc.

The wartime tasks of the BSF include holding ground in less threatened sectors, etc. Until 1965, India’s border with Pakistan was manned by various state armed police battalions. The BSF was raised in the aftermath of the 1965 war with Pakistan. The BSF website itself says that Pakistan’s attacks in Kutch exposed the inadequacy of the state armed police to cope with armed aggression. That is why, the government of India felt the need for a specialised, centrally controlled border security force, which would be armed and trained to man the international border with Pakistan.

This means that the foremost concern at the time of inception of the BSF was to create a ‘first line of defence’ against external military aggression. The BSF was supposed to take on the enemy army for duration and in areas as the situation demanded. Since there was no militancy or terrorism in that era, the question of infiltration of terrorists did not arise. Moreover, smuggling and other illegal activities had nothing to do with the 1965 War.

How the IPS undercut the BSF

Since the BSF’s inception, however, the force’s Indian Police Service (IPS) leadership, purposefully relegated the wartime role of the BSF to such an extent that it has been forgotten. They did this in order to hide their own ignorance of matters military. Since the BSF, in terms of its defences, equipment, weaponry and training, is not at all prepared for its wartime role, this means that in the eventuality of any military assault, our ‘first line of defence’ would simply crumble and we will have to fall back until such time that the army mobilises and launches a counterattack. Depending on the degree of surprise the Pakistanis are able to achieve in their attack, the army’s counterattack may take up to several days. Retreat and loss of territory in this period will result in national humiliation. The much-touted ‘first line of defence’ is actually no defence at all.

I must hasten to add that the BSF is discharging its peacetime role quite satisfactorily and is adequately equipped for it. The IPS officers in top positions in the BSF, lacking any knowledge of military science that could enable them to appreciate and address the wartime role in a professionally sound manner, promoted only the peacetime role of the BSF. Guarding and patrolling the border bore considerable similarity to the tasks performed in their policing background. However, no one ever talked about the wartime role, not to speak of preparing for it. So much so that even the government lost sight of it.

The Two Hundred Third Report of the department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Home Affairs, titled ‘Border Security: Capacity Building and Institutions’, submitted to the Rajya Sabha on April 11, 2017, does not talk about the wartime role of the BSF even once. It talks only of its peacetime role including fencing, floodlights and roads along the borders, development of integrated check posts, and construction of strategic roads. Speaking of the ceasefire violations at Chapter 4.6.3, the report says, “There have been a large number of ceasefire violations and several jawans and civilians have been killed… The government should find a way to prevent the frequent and persistent violations of ceasefire including using diplomatic channels. Ultimately, the answer lies in diplomacy.” Fighting an enemy was never contemplated.

No idea of modern ground warfare

The founders of the BSF, including the committee of secretaries, had spoken of BSF holding ground in less threatened sectors. The very premise was flawed. In their ignorance of military matters, they could not understand that the enemy would not attack ‘tentatively’ in any sector, call it less threatened or highly threatened, whatever. Leaving aside feints, which could be in any type of sector, any meaningful attack will bear the full force of enemy’s firepower.

They nurtured a romantic but wrong presumption that the assault on the ‘first line of defence’ will be by the enemy’s ‘exposed’ infantry on foot, wielding rifles and other small arms bereft of any infantry fighting vehicle or armoured personnel carrier protection. This assault, they imagined, would be repulsed by BSF soldiers wielding similar arms. That is exactly where their ignorance of military science failed them. The romantic imagery of heroic bayonet fights is found only in period films, not in real life. Even during the First World War, all infantry attacks were preceded by heavy artillery bombardment to soften up the defences, if not destroy them outright. At the Battle of Verdun (1916), they coined the famous quote ‘artillery conquers, infantry occupies’. Now, as a rule of thumb, infantry assault, whether supported by armour or not, or even a purely armour assault on any position is preceded by as heavy and as accurate artillery bombardment as possible.

If the attacking nation could afford it, such as the US during the 1991 Gulf War (over one-lakh sorties and 88,500 tons of bombs dropped), the bombardment could be aerial also. Saddam had expected and prepared for a ground offensive; the Americans refused to open up with a ground offensive. Iraq’s national war-fighting potential was effectively pulverized by the B-52s in one single night. Lest someone think that I cite examples from the Western world only, I must mention that, according to the Official History of the 1971 War also, ‘devastating barrage of artillery fire’ (Chapter 9, page 380) by Pakistan on the western front was common.

The ‘first line of defence’ cannot withstand shelling for a minute

Our ‘first line of defence’ does not have any defensive structures or fortifications that could withstand artillery bombardment even for a minute. According to photographs available in the public domain, most BSF observation posts on the international border are ramshackle structures of tin sheets and sandbags erected on small mounds of earth, which cannot withstand a single shell. The so-called bunkers or mounds will be knocked out within minutes because the shelling will be extremely accurate—the mounds are in full view of the enemy and their locations are known to them to the last centimetre.

The IPS leadership could never understand that, even if you have to place yourself right on the fence for some inexplicable reason, there is no over-ground structure, which can withstand shelling. Even the concrete pillboxes of Germany, in the Second World War, collapsed under fire. Under fire, these ramshackle structures would not serve the purpose of even observation posts. They are good only for watching smugglers in peacetime, not for fighting an invading army!

Nothing to fight an invading army

The weaponry available to the BSF is not a secret. Photographs of the 84 mm Carl Gustaf CGRL, 105 mm Indian Field Gun and their staple, the 7.62 mm medium machinegun are available in public domain. They have been putting their MMGs on public display and organizing trips of students to forward BOPs of the BSF along the international border (for example, at RS Pura sector) to show weapons and special equipment to them.

The 105 mm Indian Field Guns have been placed under the operational command of the army, and BSF would not be able to use them when the enemy makes first contact with them. That leaves them with their 51 mm and 81 mm mortars. The former, with just 109 grams of explosive per shell and a maximum range of 850 m is as good as useless in a war. The 81 mm mortar bomb with an explosive charge of 750 grams has a maximum range of 6000 m. The enemy artillery would in any case be firing from way beyond that range, thereby making effective retaliation through mortars impossible. Even when enemy IFV/APC or armour would come closer and in range, the smooth-bore 81 mm mortar is inherently not accurate enough to hit a moving vehicle—even the NATO rifled 120 mm mortars have a CEP (circular error probable) of 136 m.

As for the 7.62 mm medium machinegun, it is an anti-personnel weapon with the armour penetration of the M80 bullet being just 3 mm at 500m, making it useless against even lightly armoured vehicles. This means that the BSF outposts will not be able to deliver any effective fire at all on an enemy assault. Clearly, fighting the enemy army, for howsoever-short duration or in whichever sector, was never in the mind of the IPS leadership and they never equipped them for it. All they could understand and think of was chowkidari and that is why they never procured weapon systems or arranged for such training to be imparted that could enable the BSF to acquit itself honourably in any engagement with the enemy military.

The acid test they failed

The BSF faced enemy military action during the Battle of Hussainiwala in the 1971 War. Maj. Gen. (Retd ) Sukhwant Singh narrates this in detail in India’s Wars Since Independence, besides the Official History of the 1971 War. 15 Punjab was given the task of defending the Hussainiwala enclave, particularly the canal headworks. Three companies of the BSF in that area were placed under the battalion’s operational command to hold the BOPs of BP 180, Ullake and Rajoke with one company each and a platoon at Shamoke. The Pakistanis mounted a three-pronged attack supported by armour and preceded by intense artillery shelling at 6:15 p.m. on December 3. The BSF positions fell easily and the men had to be withdrawn across the river over the night. What happened to the four companies of 15 Punjab is another story but the withdrawal of the BSF left the entire right flank exposed and the Pakistani pincer movement threatened to close any time. Eventually, a final withdrawal by all units to the south bank of the river was ordered in the evening of December 4 and the Hussainiwala enclave was lost.

The IPS leadership has relegated the wartime role of the BSF to such an extent that most of them are not even aware of this battle. Other than this battle, their combat experience of half a century has been limited to being fired upon occasionally from across the border by Pakistani snipers or mortars etc. and their occasionally responding to the fire from relative safety. Their entire collective experiential repertoire of decades has thus been essentially repetitive and mechanical in character, without any opportunity or incentive to learn the complexities of military hardware and tactics applicable to war. As such, they cannot fight even yesterday’s war.

What ought to be done to salvage the situation?

While detailed professional knowledge on this subject can be provided at some appropriate platform only, the crisis calls for a paradigm shift. They have to think beyond their obsession with the pinpricks of Pakistanis firing upon them sporadically. It needs to be understood that the only defence feasible against artillery bombardment is to go sub-surface—in the form of deep concrete dugouts and fire trenches.

Forget the pathetic mound you have. This knowledge has been established by great research over hundreds of battles during and since the First World War, and often learnt at the cost of millions of casualties. So much scientific mind has been applied to it in the past 100 years that a deliberate ignorance of it by any Force would be criminal. A simplified but comprehensive review for the layman may be found, for example, in Paddy Griffith’s ‘Fortifications of the Western Front 1914–18’. A great amount of technical literature replete with drawings is available in the manuals of the German and British armies, which had survived the bombardment of up to 1.5 million shells. Keep in mind that the Pakistan army has field pieces ranging from 105 mm, 122 mm, 130 mm, 155 mm, and 203 mm tube artillery to 122 mm and 300 mm MBRLs.

Since trouble from Pakistan can be expected in making new defensive structures close to the fence, we have no option but to slide back to make these. Observation from close proximity of the fence can be made remotely through instruments. Then we need elaborate anti-tank ditches—not the primitive ditch-cum-bunds (DCBs) we have. This too has been developed into a science and the US army, for example, has whole manuals on it.

To deliver effective fire on enemy armoured and lightly armoured vehicles, and infantry operating under their protection, the BSF needs weapons which carry enough explosive payloads to tackle armour, both light and heavy. They have to forget their childish fascination with anti-materiel rifles and sniper rifles. Portability, manoeuvrability and accuracy are important considerations in the ‘first line of defence’ attacking armour—a veritable battery of ATGMs and cheaper yet accurate options like the 80 mm Breda Folgore RCL are available. Using them effectively would require defensive fighting positions interconnected by communication trenches. Research needs to be done to mount weapons like the Shipunov 2A42 30 mm autocannon on platforms faster than the BMP-2—similarly, MMGs/GPMGs need mobile platforms like Humvees to increase their survivability as well as effectivity.

Some apologists of the IPS leadership have argued that tactical brilliance is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for strategic leadership. While this admits the IPS leadership’s poor tactical knowledge anyway, their having abjectly ignored the wartime role of the BSF or preparing for it is a living proof of their lack of ‘strategic leadership’. If it were argued that the wartime role is not important, it would mean that the founding vision was flawed and they should have stopped flaunting the organization as the ‘first line of defence’; something they have failed to do all these years. The problem is not so much the ‘transient nature of this parachuted leadership’; the real crisis is its intellectual bankruptcy.

One learns military science by studying it continuously by oneself or institutionally—not by virtue of having crossed the hallowed portals of the UPSC. As Napoleon had famously said, “Read and reread the campaigns of Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, Eugene, and Frederick; that is the only way of becoming a great captain, to obtain the secrets of the art of war.” Never mind that military science is not taught at the National Police Academy. That is no excuse for messing things up. In fact, a system of examination can be devised to check their proficiency before they join BSF.

The IPS leadership’s lack of interest in the wartime role of the BSF over the decades has led the country to a situation where there is every possibility of rout and retreat in the early days of the war. This issue needs to be urgently addressed by the government.

Bala Vignesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2014
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 17 May 2020 22:46

A "simple" solution exists to address this, combine all three CAPF involved in border protection under a single force structure, enabling building of an comabt oriented ethos along with their regular policing roles and since it would be reclassified as a paramilitary unit along the lines of AR/RR, it would result in the force transition out of the IPS clutches.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chetonzz, Vamsee, VikramA, Yagnasri and 45 guests