ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 17 Sep 2012 09:02

I wrote out the following comment for the article and sent the same interdependently to the editors. The website says they will post the comment after moderation. Let's see if it actually goes up or not. (Though I won't be surprised if it doesn't!)

I would like to draw your attention to the flight profile taken by the Prithvi missiles during this test. Despite the short range of the Prithvi during a standard flight, it CAN be launched with a different trajectory during a short flight so that it has the same re-entry kinetics as a longer range missile. No point of doing tests otherwise, isn't it?

When you use the phrase "slow moving" in your article, you misdirect your readers into thinking that somehow the tests were made against this slower moving missile and not the real high speed target as intended for the BMD system. This is unfair to both the credibility of your article and DRDO's product and testing procedures.

At the same time I will admit that full scale tests would be preferable, but I also understand that India and USA don't work on the same budget for these things. So unless we adapt our mentality from trying to emulate the USA in every way, it becomes rapidly unfeasible to achieve our goals. You allude to this thought process when you suggest that China's BMD being verified by the US makes it imperative for us to do the same. The USA is not the referee/arbiter in this process. Yet you have made them so for some reason!

I sensed a tone of voice in your article suggesting bias against the DRDO prior to writing this article. If I have misinterpreted your objective here, then I apologize in advance. However, if your goal was to draw attention to the concerns of your sources regarding the validity of the Indian BMD system, I would suggest that you research their claims some more before printing them to the mass media who will naturally draw the same initial conclusions that I did.

Please feel free to contact me if you would like any clarifications on this material.

Regards

-An Aerospace Engineer who works in this field.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Ramu » 17 Sep 2012 14:03

akshat.kashyap wrote:seems to be copied directly from prasoon sengupta's blog


Yes, this is a recycled trash and still remains to be trash.
It reminds of an article by BBC about how an indian peni$ incapable of achieving strategic depth by being short.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 17 Sep 2012 14:07

Missile shield faces a test By Jatinder Kaur Tur


Seriously why are these assholes even given space here ???

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Sep 2012 20:20

Vivek: nice comment & it got published. This article is a copy paste of the drivel that Manoj Joshi wrote a month ago, quoting Chorgutpa. I thought you were being exceedingly restrained in your comments. The farticle is written by someone who wouldnt even get pass grades in 10th standard. Clearly a hit job.

The standard of defense journalism in India is appalling. By today's standards, "unnamed sources" means "I just made up some $hit"

What's even more appalling is that the Bharat Rakshak home page posts this news item, giving it more eyeballs. And this is not the first time that the BR homepage posts links to egregious news articles. I have commented about this in the BR Main Page feedback forum, but it seems to fall on deaf ears. Perhaps the pressure to keep updating the page with "fresh news" is too tempting

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 17 Sep 2012 22:04

Prem Kumar wrote:Vivek: nice comment & it got published. This article is a copy paste of the drivel that Manoj Joshi wrote a month ago, quoting Chorgutpa. I thought you were being exceedingly restrained in your comments. The farticle is written by someone who wouldnt even get pass grades in 10th standard. Clearly a hit job.


True enough. I was restrained in my comments more than I perhaps should have been because I decided to not go down to their level and grovel in the mud trying to reason with them.

They, being "journalists", might not have the required journalism standard, but at least we can try to.

Prem Kumar wrote:The standard of defense journalism in India is appalling. By today's standards, "unnamed sources" means "I just made up some $hit"


Yeah, I kinda thought so too. It must be nice to be in a job where if you are afraid that voicing your own concerns might draw flak on your subject matter ignorance, you can simply cite "unnamed sources" and project the concerns through them.

Its the "No No! It not me, it's them! I am only the media" phenomenon

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Sep 2012 23:55

Good job Vivek. I hope they respond and correct/modify. BTW, nice well written comment there.


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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 28 Oct 2012 12:08

MDA Goes 3 For 5 In First-Of-Its-Kind Flight Test

Preliminary results show that the U.S. Missile Defense Agency scored three of five attempted missile intercepts in a first-ever integrated flight exercise combining engagements from the PAC-3 area defense system, Terminal High-Altitude Area Defense (Thaad) system and an SM-3IA-equipped Aegis ship.

Both non-intercepts were targets that were engaged by the Aegis ship USS Fitzgerald employing Raytheon SM-3IA missiles. Despite what MDA officials call a “nominal” SM-3IA flight, the missile failed to intercept an Aegis Readiness Assessment Vehicle-B short-range ballistic missile. A second SM-3IA attempt was to counter a BQM-74 cruise missile target. Rogers says only that the interceptor “engaged” the target, but she could not confirm actual intercept. Officials are exploring what went wrong, and Raytheon officials did not provide comment following the test.

These were two of five engagements in Flight Test Integrated (FTI)-01, MDA’s largest ever flight test, which was conducted at the Kwajalein Atoll and Reagan Test Site in the Pacific Ocean. It took place late Oct. 24 local time. It was designed to stress the budding U.S. missile defense system, which includes a variety of sensors and interceptors.

A first for this test was the inclusion of so many targets and three different interceptor types. The trial was a rudimentary representation of what Pentagon officials call a “raid” threat, when an adversary launches multiple missiles of different types at once in an effort to overwhelm defenses.

The Army’s PAC-3 successfully detected, tracked and intercepted two separate targets, a short-range ballistic missile, thought to be a foreign military asset (meaning it was an actual threat missile acquired from abroad), as well as an MQM-107 cruise missile. The interceptors were the standard PAC-3 design, which is now fielded, not the Missile Segment Enhancement model still in testing.

The Lockheed Martin Thaad system also successfully detected and tracked — with its AN/TPY-2 radar — a C-17 dropped medium-range ballistic missile (MRBM) called an Extended, Long-Range Air-Launched Target. The system intercepted and destroyed this target, a first for Thaad engaging an MRBM.

Exercising against a raid threat has been a goal of MDA for years and of personal interest to MDA’s departing director, Army Lt. Gen. Patrick O’Reilly. He is slated to retire next month, when Adm. James Syring is slated to assume control of the agency.

The next MDA test, expected by year’s end, will be the first flight trial for the Ground-Based Midcourse Defense (GMD) system using its three-stage interceptor since December 2010. This flight will be for characterization only, with an intercept attempt slated for the spring. The last successful intercept for GMD took place nearly four years ago.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Ravishankar » 22 Nov 2012 11:22

India to test Advanced Air Defence tomorrow

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/in ... 12200.html

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby nits » 23 Nov 2012 16:47

India test-fires missile interceptor

India on Friday test-fired a ballistic missile interceptor from a defence base in Odisha as part of its efforts to create a shield against incoming enemy missiles, defence officials said. The indigenous Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile was fired from Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast near Dhamra in Bhadrak district, about 170 km from here.

The interceptor was fired a few minutes after the target missile was fired from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur-on-sea in Balasore district, about 70 km from Wheeler Island.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Will » 24 Nov 2012 19:21

Not to split hairs, but something worth discussing: http://livefist.blogspot.co.uk/

Why is there a coundown before the interceptor missile is launched. Thought the last time, the test was in a real time scenario where the command centre detected the launch of the "enemy missile" and engaged the same and launched the interceptor automatically. At least those were the reports. Was the test this time in a more controlled environment?

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Will » 24 Nov 2012 19:23

pentaiah wrote:The count down gives space to identify incoming is indeed a threat

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby suryag » 01 Dec 2012 13:46


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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Chinmayanand » 01 Dec 2012 14:45

suryag wrote:Nice article from Col.Ajai Shukla

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.de/2012/12/a ... -star.html


Shukla minces no words in criticising the army for its unpreparedness for war and its love for anything Natasha. He says IA has no armour doctrine and the generals have better things to do than prepare one and help in indigenous manufacturing. So , looks like we have a complete triad of corruption : Politicians-Bureaucrats-Forces . Everybody has a finger in the pie prepared by the aam aadmi. :mrgreen:

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 Dec 2012 22:34

we will talk soon.. but we need to walk for launch detection system for the future... but a great news indeed.
www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=19793 The PDV will be a solid-fuel missile that will be powered by a sophisticated new “pulse motor”. This will provide surges of propulsion during the missile’s later stage, increasing its manoeuvrability when it is very close to the target. “Intercepting the target at longer ranges provides several advantages. Firstly, the target is travelling slower --- some 2 kilometres per second at 150 kilometres; compared to 2½ kilometres per second at 50 kilometres altitude. Secondly, the target missile can be engaged before it enters Indian airspace, so that the debris falls into enemy territory. Finally, a longer flight time gives the interceptor more time for navigation, and the seeker can see better.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Vipul » 03 Dec 2012 00:51

Chinmayanand wrote:
suryag wrote:Nice article from Col.Ajai Shukla

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.de/2012/12/a ... -star.html


Shukla minces no words in criticising the army for its unpreparedness for war and its love for anything Natasha. He says IA has no armour doctrine and the generals have better things to do than prepare one and help in indigenous manufacturing. So , looks like we have a complete triad of corruption : Politicians-Bureaucrats-Forces . Everybody has a finger in the pie prepared by the aam aadmi. :mrgreen:


Shukla's reporting stance has been changing at varying times, from being factually right to the flip-flopping currying favour with the Govt kind. Why has he not come out with any criticism at how the Siachen hand-over talks have been managed to serve a anti-indian agenda?
Has his silence been bought just because the Kheema in the Samosa's was made from Shan masala?

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Feb 2013 10:44

Nice Interview

New radar system enhances Patriot missiles by up to 50 percent: Raytheon executive

India has been showing interest in Patriot system on and off may be the new system we can look at it once again to buy in small numbers as it is a proven system.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby member_22539 » 22 Feb 2013 11:42

^^ya, why not. We should keep on buying all the foreign toys and screw Indian projects. I guess our foreign friendly military folk have many friends on this forum.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Feb 2013 12:16

DRDO systems are under development and it would take almost the end of this decade to deploy them in numbers where they would be effective and BM threat are more urgent considering the mass proliferation of these missiles we have in our neighbourhood.

There is no harm in importing most modern Patriot in some number to protect Cities and VA till our systems deploys in numbers and being a combat proven system Patriot can add a sense of reliability over and above what we deploy in years ahead.

Should we have some crises in the next 2-3 years we really dont have any thing and the psychological effect of BM even conventional falling on civilan cities is tremendous as GW has shown

member_22539
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby member_22539 » 22 Feb 2013 13:53

^^Our armed forces have a habit of abandoning domestic projects in favor of foreign ones, particularly if they get their hands on some shiny gold plated foreign goodies. I hope there are more scams and all international weapons makers with domestic alternatives or even possible alternatives get banned for a LONG LONG time. After-all, this is the same armed forces that abandoned the Marut and is "trying" to abandon the Arjun. Just like the artillery saga, I hope that are FORCED to see the light of day. Letting them have a so called stopgap will be akin to allowing the proverbial camel's nose into the tent. Having said this I hope there is more competition from domestic private industry (ya, I know it is some ways off).

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby rajanb » 22 Feb 2013 14:11

Arun Menon wrote:^^Our armed forces have a habit of abandoning domestic projects in favor of foreign ones, particularly if they get their hands on some shiny gold plated foreign goodies. I hope there are more scams and all international weapons makers with domestic alternatives or even possible alternatives get banned for a LONG LONG time. After-all, this is the same armed forces that abandoned the Marut and is "trying" to abandon the Arjun. Just like the artillery saga, I hope that are FORCED to see the light of day. Letting them have a so called stopgap will be akin to allowing the proverbial camel's nose into the tent. Having said this I hope there is more competition from domestic private industry (ya, I know it is some ways off).


+1 Arun. Had the same thought. At this rate we would not be able to buy from anybody!

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 26 Feb 2013 18:18

Israel tests Arrow-3 it seems to have KKV , check the video

Israel tests Arrow 3 missile shield

The Israel Missile Defense Organization (IMDO) and US Missile Defense Agency (MDA) performed a successful first flight test of the Arrow 3 interceptor missile from a test site in central Israel on 25 February.

The Arrow 3 performed an exo-atmospheric trajectory through space over the Mediterranean, in accordance with the test plan.

Designed to provide an additional level of defence against ballistic missile threats, the new interceptor boosts the capabilities of the joint Israeli/US Arrow weapons system.

The IMDO says the successful test is a major milestone in the development of the Arrow 3, and provides further confidence in future Israeli defence capabilities to defeat a developing ballistic missile threat.

Israel Aerospace Industries' MLM unit is the main contractor for the integration and development of the Arrow weapon system, in conjunction with Boeing.

A much lighter missile than the current Arrow 2, the Arrow 3 will intercept threats outside the atmosphere, using "super manoeuvrability". During its engagement "end-game", the kill vehicle will achieve a final impact independent of any sensors on the ground.



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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby pankajs » 01 Mar 2013 13:53

Raytheon Will Test Anti-Missile Blimps Over Washington

Image
Blimps were supposed to be the military’s Next Big Thing. Not the German military circa 1933, but the U.S. military in the 21st century. Defense contractors have spent the last decade designing football field-long, helium-filled balloons with radar that can track planes, trains, automobiles—and especially missiles.
U.S. defense contractors have pitched blimps as a low-budget threat detector. They can remain in the air longer than planes, and there’s no need for expensive fuel or pilots. (Unfortunately for Congress, that means no rides.) “It’s a very affordable and cost-effective solution for surveillance,” says Raytheon’s Rose. The JLENS variety is designed to float at 10,000 feet and come down every 30 days to have the helium topped off. They’re moored to the ground with Kevlar cables. One is meant for wide, 360-degree surveillance that can reach 340 miles, and the other for precision tracking. Each is 243 feet long.
Seems like a good option for India.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby member_22868 » 02 Mar 2013 09:26

Guys,
I am going to attend this seminar by the Director of Missile Defense Agency in the US, Vice Adm James D. Syring on the topic 'missile defense system reliability'. I can ask any questions you guys might want to ask as I alone will not be able to think about many good ones :)

cheers
-ptayal


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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Apr 2013 02:13

Austin wrote:DRDO systems are under development and it would take almost the end of this decade to deploy them in numbers where they would be effective and BM threat are more urgent considering the mass proliferation of these missiles we have in our neighbourhood.

There is no harm in importing most modern Patriot in some number to protect Cities and VA till our systems deploys in numbers and being a combat proven system Patriot can add a sense of reliability over and above what we deploy in years ahead.

Should we have some crises in the next 2-3 years we really dont have any thing and the psychological effect of BM even conventional falling on civilan cities is tremendous as GW has shown


And there is no guarantee that India will get the right kind of technology with the Patriot either, which will be an export oriented Grade 2 hand me down. Your choice would only lead to India splurging money on yet another import with questionable effectiveness and then the import lobby using it as an excuse to slowly throttle local efforts. Further, thinktanks have already suggested that the US use spares supplies to such systems as a means to moderate Indian response to Pakistan. Good choice in putting more of India's eggs into that basket

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Gagan » 05 Apr 2013 08:35

US forces have these blimps deployed in their Forward Operating Bases in Afghanistan. They are used for area surveillance.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby svinayak » 05 Apr 2013 21:16

Also to track m launches from the region


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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 29 May 2013 11:19

Ballistic Missile Defense Intercept Flight Test Record
(updated May 16, 2013

http://www.mda.mil/global/documents/pdf/testrecord.pdf

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 29 May 2013 12:39

Arun Menon wrote:^^Our armed forces have a habit of abandoning domestic projects in favor of foreign ones, particularly if they get their hands on some shiny gold plated foreign goodies. I hope there are more scams and all international weapons makers with domestic alternatives or even possible alternatives get banned for a LONG LONG time.....




:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 16 Jun 2013 10:19

india-to-have-shield-from-missiles-of-5000-km-range

Under the phase II of the programme, all the components of such a missile shield including the radar and interceptor missiles would be new and will have extended ranges, the DRDO chief said.

"The phase II missiles would be totally different from phase-I. In this programme, you need to travel more and intercept further away," Chander said.


Chander said having a firing range in the Andamans was important as "we need to have separation distance between two missile units stations so that I can fire a missile from Balasore and intercept it (missile) in Andaman and Nicobar."

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby member_19648 » 16 Jun 2013 13:49

^^What about the radar for such long range detection and interception? Can anyone throw some light.. btw, caught the Indian aew&c doing a steep climb over the skies of Bangalore, was really an awesome sight.. :)

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 17 Jun 2013 18:31

BMD Phase 1 deployment would mean they have early warning radar coverage of 1500kms, the Balasore to Andamans distance is 1000-1500kms, so the Phase-1 LRTR may suffice for initial testing purposes and by deployment time they might have a longer ranged one.

The target missile will have to be in the A-2 class simulating different trajectories, unless they move to road mobile Agni-5 series for deterrence they wouldn't re-purpose the A-2s. Believe the A-2 being rail mobile they should try the launch from coastal rail line between Chennai and Kolkata instead of just Balasore.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 19 Jun 2013 08:48

India To Extend Range of Missile Interceptor to 5,000 Km

NEW DELHI — Indian scientists are upgrading the nation’s indigenous ballistic missile defense (BMD) system to extend the range at which it can kill an incoming missile from 2,000 kilometers to 5,000 kilometers.

The first phase of the BMD system has been completed, a Defence Ministry official said.

Avinash Chandra, the newly appointed head of the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), said the agency has given top priority to the BMD effort.

A DRDO scientist said the second phase of the program is in advanced stages of development and the first intercept test is likely to be completed by the end of the year.

The improved version will include advanced homemade radar and guidance systems, added the DRDO scientist, but will be an add-on of the first phase.

India’s homemade BMD system can engage enemy ballistic missiles at the exo-atmospheric layer, just beyond the atmosphere, and at the endo-atmospheric layer within the atmosphere, the DRDO scientist said. To increase hit probability, the system can launch two to three missiles each for exo- and endo-atmospheric interception simultaneously.

The interceptor’s speed is between 4.5 and 5 mach. A typical battery hasa long-range radar, missile launchers, mission control centers and other ground systems.

The complete network of radars, launch batteries, missiles control centers and launch control centers is geographically distributed and connected to a secure communication network.

The first phase of the BMD program, which can target missiles at a range of up to 2,000 kilometers, is now in the induction stage, and the system first will be installed around New Delhi, added a source in DRDO.


Is it going to be a new test different from the already announced PDV test?

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Jun 2013 03:36

PDV

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2013 07:26

isnt the name PDV a misnomer? being a 2 stage solid fuel missile per wiki , it would have nothing in common with the PAD except perhaps the IIR seeker?

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Jun 2013 10:22

PDV is a new missile with higher capabilities and dual mode guidance of IIR/ARH , I think it was mentioned it would intercept target at high altitude of 100-150 km , makes it Indian THAAD in the making.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 20 Jun 2013 12:12

The testing of PDV might happen from Andamans provided they get environmental clearance else would they take to the Aegis type of system i.e., ship based? :P

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2013 15:30

being a defensive play , even a few sites along the coast and andamans should be able to track and target any launches from the south.

its the north where most of the missiles are expected to come over the horizon.

due to high himalaya, radar angle for ground based radar in UP-Bihar-WB-Punjab will be blocked ... missiles following a depressed trajectory might gain a few mins of undetected flying time. we need things the size of this badkat voronezh EW radar to get a clue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Voron ... khtusi.jpg

the size and power requirements imply EW against ICBMs must be on static sites.

the radars that guide interceptors like PDV might be portable in 40feet trailers....

we also need even bigger space surveillance radars to cue ASAT weapons until terminal phase of engagement...


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