ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Feb 2012 14:22

Singha wrote:>> I think we should go full on on a Brahmos based ABM too.

assuming a slant range of 300km and a intercept height of say 100km there is no air at such an altitude to run the brahmos ramjet. I doubt there is enough air to make ramjets work at above 100,000ft lets say (30km)

Noted.
It need not be intended to go beyond 30KM altitude.

The use I see of Brahmos based Sub-Kiloton/Conventional ABM systems is to neutralize the TEL's within short notice before they manage to fire their Missile.

Assume the first missile of wave one of Nuclear delivery starts at 9000 hrs, and another dozen or so odd launches are to take place by 9030 hrs.We will know if its nuclear attack and in retaliation use these sub kiloton systems to takeout probable hardened bunkers/Launch sites.
We can also have less burden doing so if the targets are located in Urban/Semi Urban centers.

Brahmos has an advantage in being supersonic and the 5 min to impact can be exploited to takeout TELs before they manage to launch their Missile.
MKI's or BM's to do this kind of work in not effective IMO as the time taken for A/C to be up with the N-weapons designating and launching will be more then a simple launch from ground. And BM's with a Sub-Kiloton warhead is not as effective due to accuracy of the missile and mobility of the target.

I see a potential application that can be quite effective against our western threats.

A doctrinal procedure of a definite anti-TEL N-strike might also have some sort of deterrent against rouge TEL level commanders.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 Feb 2012 16:41

chackojoseph wrote:Indian BMD test scores a direct hit at 15 kms altitude

More details as it comes.

More info, like AAD 05 and it was the final deliverable config has been added.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Feb 2012 16:43

chackojoseph wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Indian BMD test scores a direct hit at 15 kms altitude

More details as it comes.
More info, like AAD 05 and it was the final deliverable config has been added.

Thank you

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 Feb 2012 16:54

X Post
Prithvi Target Missile for BMD test

Interceptor missile, Advanced Air Defence (AAD 05)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Feb 2012 17:01

It seems now the canister for AAD is ready. could be good news for Praahar too. The canister looks similar to what was shown on Republic day and the top Steel plate has to be moved away into the open position. I guess this will be done the fire control computer a few secs before firing the missile.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 Feb 2012 17:02

AAD-05 launch Video

16 secs onwards, you can see the smoke coming out of the ground exhaust, in the field.

nash · Post by **nash** » 10 Feb 2012 18:38

do we have full video of this test ..????

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 Feb 2012 20:12

That's the only video sent from DRDO.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Feb 2012 12:35

Good news,congrats to the boffins.Steady progress on the ABM system gives the nation a psychological assurance too,apart from the military capability,equally important.Forget about Patriot.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Feb 2012 08:38

DRDO PRESS RELEASE
------------------------

DRDO AIR DEFENCE MISSILE AAD-05 HAS SUCCESSFULLY HIT BALLISTIC MISSILE AND DESTROYS THE BALLISTIC MISSILE AT A HEIGHT OF 15 KMS OFF THE COAST OF ORISSA NEAR THE WHEELERS ISLAND. A MODIFIED PRITHVI MISSILE MIMICKING THE BALLISTIC MISSILE WAS LAUNCHED AT 1010HRS TODAY FROM ITR CHANDIPUR. RADARS LOCATED AT DEFERENT LOCATIONS HAVE TRACKED INCOMING BALLISTIC MISSILE. INTERCEPTOR MISSILE WAS COMPLETELY READY TO TAKE OFF AT WHEELERS ISLAND. GUIDANCE COMPUTERS HAVE CONTINUOUSLY COMPUTED THE TRAJECTORY OF BALLISTIC MISSILE AND LAUNCHED AAD-05 INTERCEPTOR MISSILE AT A PRECISELY CALCULATED TIME. AAD-05 INTERCEPTOR MISSILE INITIALLY GUIDED BY THE INERTIAL NAVIGATION SYSTEM WITH THE TARGET TRAJECTORY CONTINUOUSLY UPDATED BY THE RADAR, THE ON BOARD GUIDENCE COMPUTER GUIDED THE AAD-05 INTERCEPTOR MISSILE TOWARDS THE TARGET MISSILE. THE ONBOARD RADIO FREQUENCY SEEKER IDENTIFIED THE TARGET MISSILE AND GUIDED THE AAD-05 INTERCEPTOR MISSILE CLOSE TO THE TARGET MISSILE AND HIT THE TARGET MISSILE DIRECTLY AND DESTROYED IT. WARHEAD ALSO EXPLODED AND DESTROYED THE TARGET MISSILE INTO PIECES.

RADAR AND EOTS SYSTEMS HAVE TRACKED THE MISSILE AND ALSO RECORDED THE FRAGMENTS OF TARGET MISSILE FALLING INTO THE BAY OF BENGAL. IT IS ONE OF THE FINEST MISSIONS WHERE THE INTERCEPTOR HAS HIT THE INCOMING BALLISTIC MISSILE DIRECTLY AND DESTROYED AT A 15 KMS ALTITUDE. INDIA HAS JOINED A VERY FEW ADVANCED COUNTRIES, WHO HAVE THESE BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE CAPABILITIES. INDIA IS THE FIFTH NATION TO HAVE THESE CAPABILITIES IN THE WORLD. THE MISSION WAS CARRIED OUT IN THE FINAL DELIVERABLE USER CONFIGURATION MODE.

SCIENTIFIC ADVISOR TO RAKSHA MANTRI DR. V.K. SARASWAT HAS REVIEWED THE TOTAL CONFIGURATION AND MISSION AND ALSO WITNESSED THE LAUNCH. SHRI AVINASH CHANDER CHIEF CONTROLLER R&D (MSS) AND SHRI P VENUGOPALAN DIRECTOR DRDL CARRIED OUT THE FLIGHT READINESS REVIEW OF BOTH THE TARGET MISSILE AND INTERCEPTOR MISSILE. SHRI DS REDDY, PROGRAMME DIRECTOR AIR DEFENCE SYSTEM ALONGWITH HIS TEAM HAVE CARRIED OUT ALL THE PREPARATIONS FOR THE LAUNCH SUCCESSFULLY. SHRI SP DASH DIRECTOR ITR, DR SK CHAUDHURI DIRECTOR RCI AND SHRI SATISH KUMAR DIRECTOR SPIC AND OTHER TOP DRDO SCIENTISTS WERE PRESENT DURING THE MISSION. THE MISSION WAS ALSO WITNESSED BY THE SENIOR OFFICIALS OF TRI-SERVICES. RAKSHA MANTRI SHRI AK ANTONY HAS CONGRATULATED ALL THE SCIENTISTS FOR THE SUCCESSFUL DEMONSTRATION OF BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE.

==========================================================

It indicates we have perfected the Hit to Kill mechanism against maneuvering ballistic missiles. We have come a long way from the first PAD test conducted in 2006, where a miss distance between target and interceptor was mentioned in one of the interview post test. Now we have scored a perfect hit in final user configuration.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2012 08:40

for exo atmospheric intercepts we will likely a new + or * shaped cold gas thrusting system. that would be on the AD1 and AD2 'big missiles' in our ABM constellation.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 13 Feb 2012 10:49

chackojoseph wrote:X Post
Interceptor missile, Advanced Air Defence (AAD 05)

i see this much similar to prahaar in size and shape.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Feb 2012 11:38

Even PAD has Reaction control system. Otherwise it is not possible to intercept at the alt of 50 km. Of course, for the new missiles, which has to do its job in different regime, reaction system will be built accordingly.

These HTK tech is possessed by four other nations, US, Russia, France, Israel. Considering the criteria such as development, testing and demonstration of this HTK based as chronological order I can list them as,
1. US
2. India/Russia ( Happened during more or less same time)
3. Israel
4. France.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2012 11:43

didnt the chinese shoot down a MEO satellite (not sure if HTK) and scatter a ton of debris.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Feb 2012 12:37

Wel PAC-3's HTK warhead still retains a small directional explosive charge to increase the probability of kill; so strictly speaking even in Unkil's case only THAAD has a genuine HTK capability.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 13 Feb 2012 12:40

Singha wrote:didnt the chinese shoot down a MEO satellite (not sure if HTK) and scatter a ton of debris.

It was claimed to be HTK.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Feb 2012 12:45

adityadange wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:X Post
Interceptor missile, Advanced Air Defence (AAD 05)
i see this much similar to prahaar in size and shape.

DRDO has already stated that Prahaar has been developed from AAD missiles.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 13 Feb 2012 12:54

Why leave the Chinese out from the list. They did IIRC an ABM test in 2010. (that's apart from the direct hit on the satellite earlier)

koti · Post by **koti** » 13 Feb 2012 13:51

Kanson wrote:Even PAD has Reaction control system. Otherwise it is not possible to intercept at the alt of 50 km. Of course, for the new missiles, which has to do its job in different regime, reaction system will be built accordingly.

These HTK tech is possessed by four other nations, US, Russia, France, Israel. Considering the criteria such as development, testing and demonstration of this HTK based as chronological order I can list them as,
1. US
2. India/Russia ( Happened during more or less same time)
3. Israel
4. France.

What in France sir ji?

member_20163 · Post by **member_20163** » 13 Feb 2012 16:50

@ Harbans - Chief, I understand that destroying a orbital satellite is much different then hitting a incoming BM. Correct me if wrong? And with regards to Panda BMD i read that they has proximity fuse rather then kill vehicle. Is it true? .. Thanks

Will · Post by **Will** » 13 Feb 2012 17:03

THE ONBOARD RADIO FREQUENCY SEEKER IDENTIFIED THE TARGET MISSILE AND GUIDED THE AAD-05 INTERCEPTOR MISSILE CLOSE TO THE TARGET MISSILE AND HIT THE TARGET MISSILE DIRECTLY AND DESTROYED IT

.

Is it logical to deduce that this is HTK capability. On the one hand the sentence says guided the missle close to the target missile and in the same breath says hit the target missile directly. I would take this with a pinch of salt until someone really confirms that HTK capability has been demonstrated .

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 13 Feb 2012 17:16

We really need to develop our own satellite navigation system quickly rather than rely on other countries’ system.

India cannot rely on GPS (unreliable USA) or Glonass (friendly Russians) forever. I don’t know how far Bhuvan system has been developed for military purpose.

Even if India develops its own satellite navigation system in time to come, there is a real danger from China that it will neutralise it in the event of a war with us as Chinese have already demonstrated their anti-satellite capability. This means that we also need to develop anti-satellite capability to take out any hostile satellites. I also read somewhere that our scientists have claimed that it is not difficult for India to develop anti-satellite capability but we need to demonstrate this to the wide world.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 13 Feb 2012 17:23

Wiki:

China carried out a land-based anti-ballistic missile test on 11 January 2010. The test was exoatmospheric and done in midcourse[19] phase and with a kinetic kill vehicle. China is the second country after US that demonstrated intercepting ballistic missile with kinetic kill vehicle, the interceptor missile was SC-19.[19][20] The sources suggest the system is not operationally deployed as of 2010,[19] but the gap in ABM development between United States and China closes quicker than anticipated.[21]

This from Atimes

China has conducted a successful "defensive" anti-missile test with the intent of sending the United States a stern message of disapproval over Washington's latest arms sales to Taiwan.

---

This test also enabled China to communicate that it too can develop an ASAT capability as a side effect of working on kinetic kill missile defense interceptors.

"This just further cements the fact that hit-to-kill technologies for both missile defense and ASAT are really the same capability. However, in the current geopolitical climate testing a hit-to-kill missile defense system is politically acceptable while testing a hit-to-kill ASAT system is not," said Weeden.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LA20Ad01.html

Very less is available on their ABM capability, but IMO ASAT capability too is very important to the Chinese in a flare up with the US off the Taiwan Straits. I doubt we can assume they lack the technical capability..

member_20163 · Post by **member_20163** » 13 Feb 2012 18:37

thanks Harbans ... cheers

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Feb 2012 19:26

On China, there is no clear cut info, either official wordings like the drdo press release or through media on what was used to achieve the hit( I mean there is no evidence). Second, to kill a satellite, it can be done in many ways different from what is needed for achieving a lower atmosphere hit as done in AAD/PAC3 @ 15 km altitude which is more cumbersome compared to Sat kill and more relevant for practical purpose. My list is such one on missiles with such technology.

US - PAC3
India - AAD
Russia - 9M96E/E2 (of S 400 system)
Israel - Arrow
France - Aster Block 2

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Feb 2012 19:30

negi wrote:Wel PAC-3's HTK warhead still retains a small directional explosive charge to increase the probability of kill; so strictly speaking even in Unkil's case only THAAD has a genuine HTK capability.

So is, Aster block 2, 9M96 (S 400) as well as AAD.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Feb 2012 19:34

koti wrote:
Kanson wrote:Even PAD has Reaction control system. Otherwise it is not possible to intercept at the alt of 50 km. Of course, for the new missiles, which has to do its job in different regime, reaction system will be built accordingly.

These HTK tech is possessed by four other nations, US, Russia, France, Israel. Considering the criteria such as development, testing and demonstration of this HTK based as chronological order I can list them as,
1. US
2. India/Russia ( Happened during more or less same time)
3. Israel
4. France.
What in France sir ji?

It is Aster block 2 which is in development. Here is a random news onthe Aster block 1.

MBDA's Aster, the first European missile to successfully carry out a ballistic intercept
25/11/2010

MBDA is celebrating the total success of an Aster missile firing carried out on 18th October 2010 by the DGA EM (Direction Générale de l’Armement - Essais de Missiles) in the Landes region of France. This firing deployed the Aster 30 Block 1 missile variant developed for the French Air Force’s Mamba medium range air defence system (also known as SAMP/T or Surface Air Moyenne Portée Terrestre) and optimised for the interception of aerial as well as ballistic threats.

The Aster missile family (which also includes the naval variants Aster 15 and Aster 30) constitutes the most important missile programme ever launched in Europe and the second largest defence programme managed by OCCAR after the A400M tactical transport aircraft. Having been taken up by three European countries and two export countries, today, the Aster family offers the largest installed base of European missile systems. The MBDA/Thales order book for this system includes a total of 55 naval and ground-based systems and more than 1,700 missiles scheduled for delivery.

Aster-based systems are operational today in ground or naval configurations for missions associated with the self-defence of aircraft carriers, self, local and fleet area defence when deployed from frigates and destroyers, ground-based area defence as well as the anti-air protection of deployed and projected forces.

The Aster missile is differentiated from all other current and future global products by its unequalled flexibility which enables it to counter saturating attack scenarios against low radar signature targets with the same probability of success whether at low or high altitude. Thanks to this flexibility, the system is equally relevant in defeating the traditional aerial threat as it is in countering more recent scenarios associated with asymmetric warfare or force projection.

In the Aster 30 Block 1 version, which today equips SAMP/T, the missile is capable of intercepting ballistic missiles of the 600km class, the class which constitute the main current threat. Incremental evolutions of the missile have already been proposed to counter the proliferating and growing global ballistic threat. These evolutions will be transferable to all systems currently deploying Aster 30.

“This is a historic event because Europe has just demonstrated that it knows how to achieve totally independently a defence capability against the theatre ballistic missile threat”, stated Antoine Bouvier, Chief Executive Officer of MBDA. “This success further confirms the option offered by MBDA and its partners, Thales and Safran, to incrementally evolve SAMP/T and Aster in order to face the evolving ballistic threat and to respond to the issue of European sovereignty”.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Feb 2012 19:51

negi wrote:Wel PAC-3's HTK warhead still retains a small directional explosive charge to increase the probability of kill; so strictly speaking even in Unkil's case only THAAD has a genuine HTK capability.

THAAD is designed for post atmospheric interception so it does have a genuine HTK capability minus the warhead ( using KKV ) and so does SM-3 and NMD Interceptor.

PAC-3 has the dual purpose of aircraft and BM interception within the atmosphere , so it HTK with small warhead.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Feb 2012 02:34

India to develop/developing interceptors which can intercept incoming Ballistic Missiles at an altitude of 150KM

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-teeth-t ... 0-117.html

150 KM means Exo-Atmospheric. Also these missiles will be capable of targeting missiles launched from 5K km distance. Do we have the capability to detect a missile launched from 5K km distance? is this due to the rumoured X-Band RADAR desh is supposed to have used for the recent missile tests (and also to be used for the Agni-V test).

nash · Post by **nash** » 16 Feb 2012 07:20

India to develop/developing interceptors which can intercept incoming Ballistic Missiles at an altitude of 150KM

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-teeth-t ... 0-117.html

It would be PDV which should be tested by 2011 but now hopefully by end of this year...currently AAD has completed all its development trial, final version has been tested recently.... don't know how many test required for PDV.....seem like AAD will be the first missile deployed as a BMD around cities and subsequently it will modified to accommodate PDV later, may be around 2015.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 16 Feb 2012 10:46

Shrinivasan wrote:India to develop/developing interceptors which can intercept incoming Ballistic Missiles at an altitude of 150KM

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-teeth-t ... 0-117.html

Are these the AD1/AD2 missiles?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 17 Feb 2012 16:50

India to develop/developing interceptors which can intercept incoming Ballistic Missiles at an altitude of 150KM

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-teeth-t ... 0-117.html

“But the focus is now to achieve the killing precision at the highest altitude,” he said. He lay emphasis on a new advanced software for which the DRDO achieved a direct hit-to-kill on the target missile

.

This lays rest to any misinterpretation on direct hit to kill achieved.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 21 Feb 2012 17:55

Mission success

The entire interception was automated, Avinash Chander said, with the radars tracking it all the way. “We had no knowledge when the attacker would take off,” he said.

A DRDO missile technologist said that “the interceptor can be inducted straightway” into the Army. There were consecutive successes with a near hit and direct hits. Directional warheads, which exploded in all directions and pulverised the intruder, were used.

An informed source in the DRDO said that although the interceptor used in this mission was capable of intercepting missiles coming from 300 to 2,000 km away, India needed ship-based platforms for launching interceptors far away from the shore. “We are planning to realise such platforms in the near future,” he said.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 05 Mar 2012 19:25

ROTA BASE: SPAIN READIES TO PARTICIPATE IN US ‘ANTI-MISSILE SHIELD’

Spain is negotiating the inclusion and participation of its navy F-100 frigates in the US anti ballistic-missile defence system commonly known as the ‘anti-missile shield,’ that is designed to protect Allied and NATO territory. The agreement between Madrid and Washington envisages use of the Rota military base as home port for the deployment of the shield by four US Arleigh Burke class destroyers between 2013- 2015.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 09 Mar 2012 13:46

LM Completes Delivery of All Components of 1st THAAD Battery to U.S. Army

Obama To Give Missile Secrets To Russia With Love?

Russia to Hold International Conference on Missile Defense

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 09 Mar 2012 14:54

Need for Indo-Russian Partnership in BMD by T.R. SUBRAMANIAN

Does anyone know the author? There are too many "T.R.Subramanian"s, could not find the right one.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Apr 2012 21:24

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=18141
Can AAD take on mid-course kill? or this readiness exclusive of it? I thought we still have a long way to fulfill exo-atmospheric tests

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 May 2012 11:27

Raytheon Completes First Flight Test of Improved SM-3

Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) completed the first successful flight test of the Standard Missile-3 Block IB, which is the cornerstone of phase two of the administration's Phased Adaptive Approach (PAA). This is the 20th successful intercept for Raytheon's SM-3 program.

"This next-generation variant of the SM-3 is critical to the ballistic missile defense of the U.S. and our allies, because it can defeat the more sophisticated threats emerging around the world today," said Dr. Taylor Lawrence, Raytheon Missile Systems president.

During the test, the target was launched from the Pacific Missile Range Facility on the island of Kauai. As the target rose above the horizon, the USS Lake Erie's SPY-1 radar acquired and began tracking the target. After target launch, the ship's crew fired a SM-3 Block IB. During flight, the missile's kinetic warhead acquired the target with its two-color infrared seeker and tracked it through intercept.

Raytheon's SM-3 Block IB is based on the highly successful SM-3 Block IA, which is currently deployed as part of the first phase of the PAA.

Video of latest launch

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 11 May 2012 12:48

Shankaraa wrote:We really need to develop our own satellite navigation system quickly rather than rely on other countries’ system.

India cannot rely on GPS (unreliable USA) or Glonass (friendly Russians) forever. I don’t know how far Bhuvan system has been developed for military purpose.

Even if India develops its own satellite navigation system in time to come, there is a real danger from China that it will neutralise it in the event of a war with us as Chinese have already demonstrated their anti-satellite capability. This means that we also need to develop anti-satellite capability to take out any hostile satellites. I also read somewhere that our scientists have claimed that it is not difficult for India to develop anti-satellite capability but we need to demonstrate this to the wide world.

I can see your point of view, but destroying satellites is bad for the entire world because of the amount of space debris that would be created. For instance, taking out nav satellites like the gps/glosnas would be difficult because they are in geo sync orbit but if you hit a geo sync satellite, all geo sync satellites would get destroyed because the satellites would cross the destroyed satellite's debris field.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 11 May 2012 14:02

Austin wrote: Video of latest launch

What is the name of the ballistic missile used for the test?

Looks to me like a variant ATACM..