ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11857
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Apr 2019 18:29

This seems more of long range SAM against aircraft while PDV and AAD do the anti ballistic missile work

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2019 18:35

I have seen those figures before the export model displayed so far has been restricted in capabilities based on brochure of Almaz Antey.

Viktor Gumyonny is deputy commander of Russian air force and he is directly mentioning about the capabilites of new missile having outspace capability , this not some unnamed sources I am quoting

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 18:40

Austin wrote:I have seen those figures before the export model displayed so far has been restricted in capabilities based on brochure of Almaz Antey.

Viktor Gumyonny is deputy commander of Russian air force and he is directly mentioning about the capabilites of new missile having outspace capability.


The performance listed is that of the 40N6E and that is exactly what I wrote in my post that you quoted.

Now can the Russian missile variant intercept everything from drone flying at 10 meters above ground to a Satellite above 100 km? Perhaps, but the performance listed is of the system that India, China and Turkey are getting and the 3 articles I mentioned that cite the 380 ABT range (that is the range specified for the E variant) claim the exact same thing. The Jane's technical presentation from last year also claims the same very thing.

Aditya_V wrote:This seems more of long range SAM against aircraft while PDV and AAD do the anti ballistic missile work


Yes this is what it is, Long range SAM with point defense BMD capability. If you want longer range Area defense BMD capability (measured in XXX km coverage or more) then PDV and AAD are the solutions to go for.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2019 19:43

I doubt Jane’s or any one would know what india is getting brochure wise yes every one will quote it

But actual capability and configuration would be a military secret

Aditya in the IAF officer presentation he mentioned S-400 will also be used in ABM role ,Karan had linked it

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 19:46

Austin wrote:I doubt Jane’s or any one would know what india is getting brochure wise yes every one will quote it


Right and I also doubt that you would know that either. The supplier shared specifications on the E variant of the interceptor to the media. Many media organizations in Russia and abroad reported on it. That is all we have to go by.

If one wants to go into a hypothetical discussion then let us just assume that the Indian, Chinese and Turkish variants can also intercept Satellites in GEO because no one has ever denied that, and they would never admit to it because "actual capability will be secret". I would much rather stick with what is publicly known and has been shared and that is that there are two missile variants 40N6, and its export variant 40N6E. Contrary to several claims over the years that the missile was in service or just about to enter service, it did obtain the necessary approvals and entered Russian service late last year. The developer has also confirmed that China is its first export customer with its S-400 purchase, parts of which have already been delivered.

We do not even confirmation on what the variant types and mix the IAF/MOD have negotiated. If one were to make an educated guess it would be that it is likely to be a mix of 48N6-E3 and 40N6-E missiles with the former likely to be cheaper and in higher production given what we know about its development, production relative to Russia's plans of fielding the latter missile over the next decade (but that will be an informed guess and not 100% fact).

We do however have some data that has been shared by the developer of the system (and reported by Russian and Western defense outlets and media publications) on the 40N6E variant of the missile. That is all we have to go by.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1238&start=1840#p2339149

Will
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Will » 01 Apr 2019 22:09

John wrote:^ I don't think the overall order for other missiles we will be that many i believe the order is heavily skewed toward long range missiles of which russia has confirmed 650 where as with Chinese order they have confirmed 300 and for Turkey i believe it is around 100. IMO that's right thing to do since we already have MRSAM which provides similar coverage as

China
(300) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2015 2018 (250) Part of $3 b deal for 8 S-400 SAM systems
Turkey
Turkey (125) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2017 For S-400 SAM systems



The sale to turkey is worrying. They could supply the Pakis with a unit or two during a conflict.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 22:18

Will wrote:
John wrote:^ I don't think the overall order for other missiles we will be that many i believe the order is heavily skewed toward long range missiles of which russia has confirmed 650 where as with Chinese order they have confirmed 300 and for Turkey i believe it is around 100. IMO that's right thing to do since we already have MRSAM which provides similar coverage as

China
(300) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2015 2018 (250) Part of $3 b deal for 8 S-400 SAM systems
Turkey
Turkey (125) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2017 For S-400 SAM systems



The sale to turkey is worrying. They could supply the Pakis with a unit or two during a conflict.


You can't just pick up and introduce a completely unrelated air-defense system and place it with a new operator on the fly. It takes Millions of $ and years of work to make the system interoperable with a particular nation's systems and then to train an air defense unit on how to employ it. I don't think your fear of Turkey doing it is justified. China is the first S-400 operator and they can do this as well if it were possible, easy or cheap to do.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2019 22:20

turkey would have to send their own operators. being a large system its tough to hide from satellites. russia would know for sure.

I would be more worried about saudis and turks transferring jdams, paveways and amraams from their stocks. much harder to track and needs no integration with F-16s atleast.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 22:22

Singha wrote:turkey would have to send their own operators. being a large system its tough to hide from satellites. russia would know for sure.

I would be more worried about saudis and turks transferring jdams, paveways and amraams from their stocks. much harder to track and needs no integration with F-16s atleast.


That (Turkish operators participation during conflict) would tantamount to Turkey declaring war on India.

For what? Pakistan? :rotfl:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2019 22:26

imo turkish antics are what pakistan wishes to emulate
- far richer economically
- easy access to nato weapons and strong local weapons industry
- can keep its terrorist tanzeems in north syria after fighting off US and Russian oppn - on behalf of kurds and assadists
so erodgan is having his cake and eating it. in between he also crushed a coup and arrested lot of his AF generals
- even russia could do nothing after the su24 incident - if khyber pass is strategic position, the dardenelles is even more so.
- monopoly rule since around 2003

turkey, unlike GCC can afford to rile up india because our ties are not much in any sphere. a couple of flights a day and thats it. there are hardly any indian workers, companies or students in turkey and vice versa. I see nothing from turkey in indian markets.

so no wonder PAF considers TAF their iron brother.

today HT had a article that Turkiye is MLUing all 3 of their agosta90b subs, and 1 older agosta is all they have in active service till 2020.

so ties are deep and getting deeper.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 22:35

Singha wrote:
so ties are deep and getting deeper.


Strong defense forces and industry ties are one thing, willing to fight an emerging Superpower to protect those ties is a whole another level. I think that sort of behavior is much more possible from China than from Turkey.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13109
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby negi » 02 Apr 2019 01:13

Turkey wants to justify it's tag of sick man of europe ; with economy in doldrums doing business with another grade#1 bikhari on the east will simply get them closer to bankruptcy faster .

Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2372
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Bart S » 02 Apr 2019 02:52

^ Also, Erdogan's grip on power seems to finally be slipping, and no doubt Unkil will leave no stone upturned to make sure they see the back of him.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/31/worl ... dogan.html

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Rony » 02 Apr 2019 03:07

During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2019 09:11

The entire OPEC lead by Paki that includes even Turks are pro-Paki , Just that some are overt and others are covert about it. The Sunni Brothers of Band

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2019 09:26

Karan Check this as we operate quite a few of these meter band radar there is an upgrade option to it

https://kbradar.by/en/products/radiolok ... heniya/99/

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Katare » 03 Apr 2019 06:28

Rony wrote:During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT


Probably pakis pretending to be turks.

kittoo
BRFite
Posts: 969
Joined: 08 Mar 2009 02:08

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby kittoo » 03 Apr 2019 08:58

Katare wrote:
Rony wrote:During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT


Probably pakis pretending to be turks.


Not necessarily. Turks do have a lot of love for Pakistan. Not only is it evident online (even on Quora, where its slightly harder to fake), but also if you go to Turkey. Whrn we were there, we were asked quite a few times if we were Pakistanis. And the reaction was always disappointment when we told we were from India. We were asked a couple of times if we were from India too, but it was clear tuat Turks love Pakis.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Apr 2019 09:11

Rony wrote:During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT


To make a very long story short, Islam (for better or worse) states that a Muslim must help another Muslim when the option is between a Muslim and a non-Muslim (assuming the situation is binary). IF the Muslims helps the non-Muslim, instead of a Muslim, he (the helper) goes to hell.

I am fairly confident that "India" knows such nuances.

habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6860
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby habal » 03 Apr 2019 09:35

plenty of pakistanis are wannabe turks, they even go by turkish names online, this pakistan cyber army 'regiment' of 300 blowhards has it's main job of going into chat rooms, youtube comments section and popular boards to spew filth against India or Afghanistan or Shia or anyone else that is the flavor of the season.

Kindly do not be misled by online chatter and broadbrush an entire country. Here is an actual Indian vlog in turkey.

https://youtu.be/-mwvE3LzDcM
https://youtu.be/5Faoa7pKleQ
https://youtu.be/sG4rK7pftJw
https://youtu.be/7ySv7A4xyRs

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 392
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 23 Apr 2019 00:18

India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles awaited-Snehesh Philip/CouptaJi
https://theprint.in/defence/india-completes-phase-one-of-ballistic-missile-defence-programme-nod-for-missiles-awaited/224959/
IIRC, Khan relies on IR sats for detecting the launch before SPY/Ground based Radar starts the tracking.
Do we also plan on sending up a few IR signature tracking sats for a redundant mechanism?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19452
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 21:39

https://theprint.in/defence/india-compl ... ed/224959/
Friday, 26 April, 2019

Home Defence India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles...

Defence

India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles awaited
Phase one of the programme will see Delhi and Mumbai being guarded against incoming ballistic missiles.
Snehesh Alex Philip Updated: 23 April, 2019 6:04 pm IST
Ballistic Missile Defence


New Delhi: In a boost to India’s deterrence capabilities, the phase one of the ambitious Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme has been completed and a formal nod for the deployment of active missiles is expected soon, top sources told ThePrint.

Phase one of the programme will cover Delhi and Mumbai, and guard them against incoming ballistic missiles.

“The phase one of the Ballistic Missile Defence programme has been completed. We have deployed two indigenous long-range radars as part of the programme. As and when we get an all-clear from the government, the specific missiles will be deployed,” a top source in the defence establishment told ThePrint.

Sources also said adequate arrangements have been made to ensure that missiles were produced in the required manner.

Asked by when the permission for the deployment of missiles is expected, another top source said, “soon” without getting into any time line.

‘Radars have higher range and capability’

Sources said the two radars that have been deployed are completely indigenous.

It was in the mid-2000s that India got Swordfish from Israel. The Swordfish is an active electronically scanned array (AESA) long-range tracking radar, specifically built to counter ballistic missile threat.

This radar is a derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long-range radar, which is the critical component of its arrow missile defence system. However, Swordfish uses a number of indigenous systems.

“After Swordfish, we have managed to make two indigenous radars with higher range and capability,” a defence source said.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 878
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby nash » 27 Apr 2019 00:03

“The phase one of the Ballistic Missile Defence programme has been completed. We have deployed two indigenous long-range radars as part of the programme. As and when we get an all-clear from the government, the specific missiles will be deployed,” a top source in the defence establishment told ThePrint.


This is almost 2 year back:

https://www.dnaindia.com/jaipur/report-2-state-villages-chosen-by-drdo-for-setting-up-radar-to-track-enemy-2520834

In August 2017, the government cleared the allocation of 850 hectares of land in Khoa, Alwar district and 350 hectares in Roopnagar, Pali district in Rajasthan for setting up radars to track missiles to the DRDO.


This should be LRTR and MFCR radars.I believe basic C4I is in place now after election we can see first order of AAD, and PDV later.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3885
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby kit » 27 Apr 2019 02:50

Karan M wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/india-completes-phase-one-of-ballistic-missile-defence-programme-nod-for-missiles-awaited/224959/
Friday, 26 April, 2019

Home Defence India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles...

Defence

India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles awaited
Phase one of the programme will see Delhi and Mumbai being guarded against incoming ballistic missiles.
Snehesh Alex Philip Updated: 23 April, 2019 6:04 pm IST
Ballistic Missile Defence


New Delhi: In a boost to India’s deterrence capabilities, the phase one of the ambitious Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme has been completed and a formal nod for the deployment of active missiles is expected soon, top sources told ThePrint.

Phase one of the programme will cover Delhi and Mumbai, and guard them against incoming ballistic missiles.



“After Swordfish, we have managed to make two indigenous radars with higher range and capability,” a defence source said.



any specs for these radars in the open media ??

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 28 Apr 2019 19:31

Jamia team develops ultrasensitive quantum thermometer

The thermometer can measure micro Kelvin changes in temperature and has quick response time

Researchers at Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi, have developed an ultrasensitive quantum thermometer using graphene quantum dots. The thermometer can precisely measure a wide range of temperature: 27 degree C to –196 degree C. The thermometer has high sensitivity when measuring different temperatures and can measure very minute (micro Kelvin) changes in temperature.

The thermometer developed by a team led by Saikh S. Islam, Director of the Centre for Nanoscience and Nanotechnology also showed extremely quick response time of just about 300 milliseconds to register a change in temperature from 27 degree C to –196 degree C. And the time taken to return to its initial temperature value was as little as about 800 milliseconds. The results of the study were published in the journal Nanoscale Advances.

“The thermometer showed excellent repeatability with negligible variation in sensing response when tested for over 50 cycles during a one-year period. The sensor was stable and responded ultra-fast when we tested it repeatedly,” says Prof. Islam.


Can this be used in SBIRS kind of detectors?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2019 13:50

Interview with Deputy Director General Sergey Druzin Almaz Antey on S-400 capabilities

https://ria.ru/20190618/1555540651.html

- Why the development of the next generation of air defense systems - S-400 - took so long, more than 10 years?


- The S-400 system was not lucky, like many other projects that were implemented by our defense industry in the 90s. Then the national defense industry suffered tremendous damage, part of the personnel was lost, there was no normal funding. Work on the complex has actually stopped. For the same reasons, rockets for this system have been developed for a long time. Nevertheless, work was ongoing, and by 2007 the first S-400 division was handed over to the Ministry of Defense and put on combat duty.

The fundamental difference between the S-400 system from previous systems is its noise immunity and fire performance. The number of simultaneously fired targets at the S-400 is significantly greater than that of the S-300. This is ensured, among other things, thanks to the emergence of a new intellectual missile with a control system that allows it to use the widest range of application modes: active homing, and the use of information from external sources, and other radars. The system also provides for firing over-the-horizon targets - those that are not visible to the radar, but information about them is available in the system.

Each complex has its own technological base. The elemental base in the S-400 is different - miniaturization, the degree of integration of the elements made it possible to create a system with significantly higher characteristics with smaller dimensions. This applies to both the detection locator and the multifunction station.

The command post of the system includes powerful radars that allow you to see the air situation at long ranges. This allows him to set tasks and control their implementation by other systems, including not only the S-400, it can be air defense systems of other modifications, including the S-300, it can also be the “Shell”, air defense systems of the ground forces. The S-400 system is capable of being the basis of a grouping of air defense systems. The system contains images of managed assets in order not to set tasks that do not correspond to their technical characteristics. S-400 can maximize the use of all the funds that are given to her in control.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2019 13:51

OTH firing ability of S-400 Missile will allow it to be integrated with Indian ICASS and Sword Fish Radar for OTH Targetting or any other system.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Sep 2019 10:12

In recent Missile Attack by Houthis using low flying cruise missile on key Saudi refinery both the Patriot system and Skyguard system and French VSHORD failed to defend against

http://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/09/19/how- ... tacks.html


Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was asked on Wednesday why the U.S.-supplied missiles were unable to fend off the attack on the Abqaiq petroleum processing facilities and Khurais oil field in eastern Saudi Arabia.

But Pompeo suggested that even the best defense systems cannot stop every attack. "This is an attack of a scale we've just not seen before," Pompeo explained, calling the strike an "act of war." He also noted that the U.S. wants "to make sure that infrastructure and resources are put in place such that attacks like this would be less successful than this one appears to have been."

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Sep 2019 19:38

Austin wrote:In recent Missile Attack by Houthis using low flying cruise missile on key Saudi refinery both the Patriot system and Skyguard system and French VSHORD failed to defend against

http://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/09/19/how- ... tacks.html


Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was asked on Wednesday why the U.S.-supplied missiles were unable to fend off the attack on the Abqaiq petroleum processing facilities and Khurais oil field in eastern Saudi Arabia.

But Pompeo suggested that even the best defense systems cannot stop every attack. "This is an attack of a scale we've just not seen before," Pompeo explained, calling the strike an "act of war." He also noted that the U.S. wants "to make sure that infrastructure and resources are put in place such that attacks like this would be less successful than this one appears to have been."


You cannot defend against what you do not see. There has been some really nice open source forensic examination done to see where the Saudi PATRIOT batteries were located and how the flight trajectory and altitudes used by the CM's and drones obscured line of sight (due to terrain and the buildings and infrastructure) and created clutter issues. PATRIOT, a sectored system, is not designed to organically defend against such threats approaching within these types of obstructions and clutter issues. The PATRIOT solution to that is to used scattered tracking, and fire-control sensors that cover gaps, extend the battle space, and have the potential to provide fire-control quality tracks that can feed directly into the weapon engagement loop with the organic battery. Both missiles can very easily defeat the threats with the MSE capable of defeating much higher performance low flying very fast missiles as well given its active Ku band seeker..

The two "Pocket" sensors used for this are the Sentinel A3 radar (X-band Short/Medium Range radar) and the KuFRS, Ku band Short ranged AESA radar which is used for best discrimination of very small UAS targets that fly low and very slow. Both are rapidly deployble via C-130 or helicopter and can expand battle space either by being integrated into existing AD systems/net or into a sister service surveillance and tracking net. In addition to these, US forces have also been seen using RADA's very short ranged counter UAS AESA radars that offer more deployability and mobility. These are often paired with and support Electronic Warfare jammer systems. You see these deployed in Afghanistan, Iraq etc defending against these type of attacks as complement to PATRIOT or as stand alone systems. Saudis need to add these layers to their AD systems and infrastructure protection needs to include proper, modern point defense systems as theater defense systems will not be able to provide this type of protection given trajectories and altitudes involved. No theater based system will be able to do it as you need colocated systems that do the PD mission against mixed saturated threat.

Image

Image

Image

Image

The first dozen or so IBCS EOC's are currently under construction. It would not surprise me if the US Army begins sending the first IBCS EOC and IFCN relay antennas to the Middle East as an Early Operational capability close to the end of the year or by early next year sort of what the USAF did with JSTARS with its trial by combat...

Image

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3885
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby kit » 28 Sep 2019 21:35

Am new to the discussion so I hope this question is relevant !.. the S 400 is a system of radars and missiles and modular to boot., meaning other systems can be plugged in as required. That does mean it will function as an ABM and an area denial system to aircraft and drones as well. This also could mean it can detect track and attack cruise missiles aircraft AND ballistic missiles at the SAME time.

I don't think it got its reputation for nothing. Its presence could as well mean an entire enforced non fly zone.

Happy to be corrected.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3885
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby kit » 28 Sep 2019 21:37

Also turkey and China acquisition of S400 means the variant destined for India is a tailor made version with enhanced capabilities.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Sep 2019 21:45

kit wrote:Am new to the discussion so I hope this question is relevant !.. the S 400 is a system of radars and missiles and modular to boot., meaning other systems can be plugged in as required. That does mean it will function as an ABM and an area denial system to aircraft and drones as well. This also could mean it can detect track and attack cruise missiles aircraft AND ballistic missiles at the SAME time.
Happy to be corrected.


That is not unique to it. The S-300 does that too, as does the PATRIOT, David's Sling and others.. The radars are electronically scanning and can search the air-space for multiple target types ranging from very fast and high (Ballistic Missiles) and lower altitude, and slower threats. PATRIOT has the capability to plug in additional sensors both wide area theater based sensors (like the AN/TPY-2 for example for BMD) to very small pocket - gap filler sensors like Sentinel, right to very long range low frequency sensors for Air Surveillance and BMD early warning and tracking (US forces use TPS-59 L band radars for this role). The problem though is radar horizon, clutter, and being able to see around very large and dense infrastructure build up (like an oil refinery, building and urban environment). Even using masts only goes a little way in helping as the radar range equation and horizon still works against you. What you have to do is spread out your sensors, launchers so that you can optimize and use the best sensor to detect a particular threat, and then utilize the best suitable effector (based on target performance and quality/attribute, and the interceptor launcher geo-location). Pocket radars also have the advantage that they are light enough to physically be mounted on buildings, including civilian infrastructure where your larger BMD or long range sensors cannot be placed.

That is how you optimally protect a large area, with high clutter against terrain hugging threats. Your best bet is to use point-defense systems that can be optimally located close to the site they are protecting and netted to these larger AD sensors. The worst way to do it is to try to do this mission as a theater mission utilizing wide area sensors and shooters. You aren't going to be able to do this from one location that covers hundreds of miles radius. You have to spread your sensors and launchers for optimization either as part of one spread out AD system (PATRIOT concept with IBCS/IFPC) or use multiple systems specifically designed for point defense that can tap into the larger system's long range surveillance. Best is to do a bit of both adn have overlapping capability with redundancies built in.

modular to boot.


I don't understand the concept of modularity as you are applying.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2374
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby John » 28 Sep 2019 21:57

kit wrote:Also turkey and China acquisition of S400 means the variant destined for India is a tailor made version with enhanced capabilities.

There is no such thing it is same S400 as anyone else, configuration might be little different in terms of missiles and radar setup but it's not enhanced.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3885
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby kit » 28 Sep 2019 22:56

brar_w wrote:
kit wrote:Am new to the discussion so I hope this question is relevant !.. the S 400 is a system of radars and missiles and modular to boot., meaning other systems can be plugged in as required. That does mean it will function as an ABM and an area denial system to aircraft and drones as well. This also could mean it can detect track and attack cruise missiles aircraft AND ballistic missiles at the SAME time.
Happy to be corrected.


That is not unique to it. The S-300 does that too, as does the PATRIOT, David's Sling and others.. The radars are electronically scanning and can search the air-space for multiple target types ranging from very fast and high (Ballistic Missiles) and lower altitude, and slower threats. PATRIOT has the capability to plug in additional sensors both wide area theater based sensors (like the AN/TPY-2 for example for BMD) to very small pocket - gap filler sensors like Sentinel, right to very long range low frequency sensors for Air Surveillance and BMD early warning and tracking (US forces use TPS-59 L band radars for this role). The problem though is radar horizon, clutter, and being able to see around very large and dense infrastructure build up (like an oil refinery, building and urban environment). Even using masts only goes a little way in helping as the radar range equation and horizon still works against you. What you have to do is spread out your sensors, launchers so that you can optimize and use the best sensor to detect a particular threat, and then utilize the best suitable effector (based on target performance and quality/attribute, and the interceptor launcher geo-location). Pocket radars also have the advantage that they are light enough to physically be mounted on buildings, including civilian infrastructure where your larger BMD or long range sensors cannot be placed.

That is how you optimally protect a large area, with high clutter against terrain hugging threats. Your best bet is to use point-defense systems that can be optimally located close to the site they are protecting and netted to these larger AD sensors. The worst way to do it is to try to do this mission as a theater mission utilizing wide area sensors and shooters. You aren't going to be able to do this from one location that covers hundreds of miles radius. You have to spread your sensors and launchers for optimization either as part of one spread out AD system (PATRIOT concept with IBCS/IFPC) or use multiple systems specifically designed for point defense that can tap into the larger system's long range surveillance. Best is to do a bit of both adn have overlapping capability with redundancies built in.

modular to boot.


I don't understand the concept of modularity as you are applying.


Modular as in addition and enhancements adding capabilities . Also ability to incorporate other SAM / ABM systems. I am talking only from information as reported from Almaz.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8641
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Sep 2019 23:04

kit wrote:Modular as in addition and enhancements adding capabilities . Also ability to incorporate other SAM / ABM systems. I am talking only from information as reported from Almaz.


Are you telling me that the S-400 can incorporate whole ABM systems into it? Do they provide open source API's and interfaces to the AD manufacters worldwide? I doubt it. How will you integrate say, Barak 8 Radar and Missile into it..will it be plug and play because that is what I understand with modularity as you've mentioned. I think if you look at AD systems worldwide all can add capability via integration provided you have enough money and time. If there is something special in terms of how the S400s modularity allows for disparate system integration then do share.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21144
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Prem » 02 Nov 2019 08:26

https://defpost.com/indias-first-missil ... ea-trials/
India’s First Missile Tracking Ship, Called Ocean Surveillance Ship (OSS), Commences Sea Trials

he vessel, whose keel was laid on 30 June 2014, was initially constructed in a covered dry dock at the shipyard due to its secretive nature. The construction of the vessel was monitored directly by the Indian Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) as with the Advance Technology Vessel (ATV) project, which led to the development of India’s first indigenous nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN), INS Arihant.The ship is reportedly fitted with a primary X band and a secondary S band active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. It also has a long open deck for installing multiple missile tracking antennas. The ship is expected to be part of India’s Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) program, an elaborate missile shield being developed to deter enemy missile attacks.OSS will also carry acoustic equipment, underwater listening devices and other extensive suites of navigation, communications, command and control (C3) equipment. But due to the high secrecy being maintained on the details of the vessel, the exact capabilities and systems on board is not known.The vessel, designed by Vik Sandvik Design India (VSDI), reportedly has an overall length of 175 m, a beam of 22 m, a depth of 6 m and a displacement of over 10,000 tonnes.The ship is powered by two imported 9000kW combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) configuration marine diesel engines and three 1200 ekW auxiliary generators enabling it to have a maximum speed of 21 knots. She is equipped with flightdeck and hanger facilities for a HAL Chetak or HAL Dhruv ALH helicopter, and will have a crew complement of 300.
Once commissioned, the ship will be jointly operated by the Indian Navy a

Raghunathgb
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 95
Joined: 23 Apr 2019 18:16

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 08 Jan 2020 12:19

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/theprint ... 853/%3famp

India’s ballistic missile shield ready, IAF & DRDO to seek govt nod to protect Delhi.

New Delhi: India’s indigenous Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme is complete, and the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are now working on a proposal to seek the government’s nod to install the missile shield for the national capital, ThePrint has learnt.




BMD is for Delhi

Asked whether the Ministry of Defence would be the nodal authority for approving the installation of the missile shield, a government source said the matter comes directly under the Prime Minister’s Office.

Once the permission is granted, the source added, it will take three to four years to put the shield in place because production of the required systems would take time.


Asked if the shield is not meant for Mumbai, the country’s financial capital, the top government official quoted above said, “BMD is for Delhi. It is up to the government to decide which other cities will get it.”

The official added that the BMD programme was envisaged for the national capital only.

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 04 Feb 2020 12:54

Russia Begins Production of S-400 Air Defence Systems for India
MOSCOW (Sputnik) - Russia has begun production of S-400 air defence missile systems for India, Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov said.
<snip/>
Previously, Rosoboronexport Director General Alexander Mikheev said that Russia will complete the deliveries in 2025.

I've often wondered why Indian defense deals come with so many notifications, as if begging for opposition. For example:

2014 Missile Monitor, Russian Air Force: India interested in S-400
2015 Dawn: India to buy 5 units of S-400
2016 The Diplomat: India signs deal to buy S-400
2018 The Diplomat: India actually signs for S-400
2019 ToI: India transfers 15% of funds for S-400
2020 Sputnik News: Russia *begins* production of S-400
2025: Russia will complete deliveries

Is the idea to give the enemy ample time to realize that they might as well attack sooner rather than later?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54275
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Feb 2020 13:51

Eleven years to complete the acquisition for a clearly needed defence system. What's wrong here?

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Vips » 16 Feb 2020 05:05



Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], kumarn and 43 guests