Military Flight Safety

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anishns
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby anishns » 18 Sep 2011 16:33

Apologies if duplicate post. But, a truly inspiring story of one woman (or family) making a difference, even in our country.

http://kedargadgil.blogspot.com/2011/09/lexus-1-and-his-legacy.html

27 year old flt lt abhijit gadgil (service number 24212-G and my kid brother), is on ORP (operations readiness platform) duty, called back from his house for an emergency. he has just finished an extended duty of 12 hours but hearing that flying might be on offer that night, he rushes to the squadron....

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby tsarkar » 19 Sep 2011 12:46

this was taken at KKD in 2010 during Indradhanush III. It should answer your question (about FLs in Service or not). I notice some guy on the BR forum saying they have finished. Well I am pretty sure he is wrong and OCU is still going.
Jagan wrote:Having noted the above, I would stick my neck out and say that the IAF would not retire the FL without undertaking a proper retirement ceremony like they did with all the other recent types (Iskra's, MiG-25s, MiG-23MFs and MiG-23BNs)...
nachiket wrote:tsarkar ji, I was also under the impression that MOFTU is still equipped with the FL. Have you heard anything about MOFTU being re-equipped with the M/MF or Bis type?
From what my information is, the last fighter squadron (8) gave up its birds in 2005-6. There was a ceremony in that squadron at Tezpur or Bagdogra. The squadon reformed to Su30MKI in 2007 at Bareilly and may move to Chabua or Tezpur once those airfields are modernized under the airfield modernization project. Regarding MOFTU, I was under the impression that its role was gradually being taken over by the Hawks at Bidar. There are approx 30-40 Hawks in commission.

Having said that, the picture at Kalaikunda does indicate Type 77 in service.

Added later - MOFTU itself was formed with Type 77 hand-me-downs as other squadrons moved to MiG29 etc and since Neeraj has correctly noted most Type 77 crashes are at Bagdogra, I believe MOFTU is using the last flying hours of these birds http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_unit.php?ch=28
However, during peace time the Squadron is given the additional responsibility of conducting MOFT syllabus of young pilots


52 was later assigned to Suryakiran http://mod.nic.in/samachar/aug1-06/h4.htm
8 became MKI http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 301220.htm

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 26 Sep 2011 13:54

Apologies

This is not a military flight safety issue, but it is the sort of thing that could apply to modern military aircraft too, especially on long transport/patrol flights. the narrative is precise, erudite and well worth a watch of the full 12 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARybu2kHeZ8

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby neerajb » 26 Sep 2011 20:16

A line pilot's perspective of AF-447:

http://flightlevel390.blogspot.com/2011 ... art-3.html

Cheers....


member_19805
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_19805 » 05 Oct 2011 14:35

sanjeevpunj wrote:Finally the press catches up and starts pointing at lack of trainers.Is that so?
Lack of trainers takes toll on young pilots.Published: Friday, Aug 5, 2011, 8:30 IST
A Jaguar fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed on Thursday in UP’s Gorakhpur, killing the pilot, Flight Lieutenant S Pandey, and a farmer.
Pandey was on a training sortie when the aircraft spun out of control and crashed killing a farmer on the ground and then sunk into a nearby pond.
This was the second major accident for the IAF in a week. Flight Lieutenant MS Pillai died in a training sortie while flying a MiG 21 in Nal, Bikaner, on Tuesday.
Sources in the IAF headquarters told DNA that evidence available in both accidents pointed to a case of pilot error.
“It is too early for us to draw any conclusions but in both cases, these were young pilots with about 40 hours of flying behind them,” a senior air force official said.
According to him, the Jaguar pilot was flying at a low level and had completed a series of maneuvers when he suddenly did a hard turn and the aircraft spun out of control.
“We are still trying to locate the FDR (data recorder) of the aircraft, which will have all the details, but we are guessing that the pilot lost control.”
The MiG-21 crash also occurred in similar circumstances when the pilot was on a low-level flight and suddenly lost control and crashed into the ground.
The initial investigations have revealed that there was no defect in the upgraded MiG-21 “Bison” thus narrowing down the cause of the accident to “pilot error”.
Both crashes come within days of the induction of the new chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne who is a Jaguar pilot.
Sources close to Browne told DNA that the air chief was extremely disturbed and was looking at training schedules of the rookie pilots to prevent such accidents.

Source:http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_lack-of-trainers-takes-toll-on-young-pilots_1572745


From the above it looks like,that Flt Lt Pandey,while attempting to turn....rolled over and was unable to recover...seems to be an error of judgement......more experienced pilots re 2 test pilots in this case while practicing for a demo in a Kiran many years ago,died in a fatal crash in Bangalore....sadly the 70's in B'lore did see a few TP's loose their lives in the line of duty

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby chetak » 05 Oct 2011 17:01

Kiki wrote:
From the above it looks like,that Flt Lt Pandey,while attempting to turn....rolled over and was unable to recover...seems to be an error of judgement......more experienced pilots re 2 test pilots in this case while practicing for a demo in a Kiran many years ago,died in a fatal crash in Bangalore....sadly the 70's in B'lore did see a few TP's loose their lives in the line of duty


Very strongly rumored to be a case of suicide.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_19805 » 05 Oct 2011 23:52

chetak wrote:
Kiki wrote:
From the above it looks like,that Flt Lt Pandey,while attempting to turn....rolled over and was unable to recover...seems to be an error of judgement......more experienced pilots re 2 test pilots in this case while practicing for a demo in a Kiran many years ago,died in a fatal crash in Bangalore....sadly the 70's in B'lore did see a few TP's loose their lives in the line of duty


Very strongly rumored to be a case of suicide.


Absolute rubbish,that wasnt the case .....based on the eye witness account of the other TP's on the ground watching the practice,the findings of the court pointed towards an error of judgement on part of the pilot in command....sometimes even the best make mistakes

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Oct 2011 05:23

Folks we are talking about someone who died - and he was one of our boys - not some shit eatin' Packee. Please stop posting speculative stories. In general I have woken up every morning for many decades knowing that up until the previous day the air force has successfully trained its own to fly and utilise their aircraft competently and I continue to hold the thought that they will investigate the cause of accidents and will address them appropriately. So could we put an end to this? Thanks.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_19805 » 06 Oct 2011 09:27

^^^
I was refering to the crash that happened,in 1980 in B'lore in which 2 HAL test pilots lost their lives.....that is a first hand account---I knew both of them.
About the speculative stories bit on BRF.....agree,glad you raised this pont..... their are a lot of folks here who are either on steroids or smoking some really serious stuff....cause they really dont know WTF they are talking about :wink: ....and if pointed,then they cant handle it :lol: .
Cheers

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Oct 2011 09:56

Deepak Yadav was a family friend - he was a test piiot who went down in Kiran in the 1980s. If you are talking about him I would like to talk to you.

No one wants accidents but after they occur there is a specific sequence of events that must take place before anyone can say what might have happened. Forensic medicine is all about figuring out an identity, time and cause of death from the remains of a corpse that may have been rotting for 6 months. Not much left to go by. Air crash investigation is similar. You have a million pieces and maybe some flight data recorded, and some eyewitness accounts. There may be a "history" of the aircraft in question like the "dental records" of a dead person.

Ultimately it can very difficult to pinpoint an exact cause. Speculation is easier. But on a forum of enthusiasts you are asking for a flamewar if you accuse others of being on streoids or smoking something. Best to drop the issue.

prithvi

Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby prithvi » 06 Oct 2011 10:22

Kiki wrote:^^^
I was refering to the crash that happened,in 1980 in B'lore in which 2 HAL test pilots lost their lives.....that is a first hand account---I knew both of them.
About the speculative stories bit on BRF.....agree,glad you raised this pont..... their are a lot of folks here who are either on steroids or smoking some really serious stuff....cause they really dont know WTF they are talking about :wink: ....and if pointed,then they cant handle it :lol: .
Cheers


Agree with you.... completely... appetite to handle uncomfortable facts is a rare commodity in BRF of late... we all need to calm down and bring a degree of civility...

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_19805 » 06 Oct 2011 11:02

shiv wrote:Deepak Yadav was a family friend - he was a test piiot who went down in Kiran in the 1980s. If you are talking about him I would like to talk to you.

No one wants accidents but after they occur there is a specific sequence of events that must take place before anyone can say what might have happened. Forensic medicine is all about figuring out an identity, time and cause of death from the remains of a corpse that may have been rotting for 6 months. Not much left to go by. Air crash investigation is similar. You have a million pieces and maybe some flight data recorded, and some eyewitness accounts. There may be a "history" of the aircraft in question like the "dental records" of a dead person.

Ultimately it can very difficult to pinpoint an exact cause. Speculation is easier. But on a forum of enthusiasts you are asking for a flamewar if you accuse others of being on streoids or smoking something. Best to drop the issue.


Shiv,

Yadav/Ghildial crash happened in 1976....structural failure...the tail snapped on a routine test flt...yes they were family friends...
IIRC,the Yadavs had just moved to B'lore that year,and post the crash moved out.

The crash I was refering happened on 1st Oct 1980....the pilots were Venu Menon & Kishore.
This happened over the HAL Airport runway,while practising a roll at a very low height....they couldnt recover from it and went down on the side of the runaway....this happened in front of the other Test pilots who were watching the rehearsal.

About the speculative bit....there should'nt be any room for that on a board such as this...esp when we are discussing serious issues about op's/trg etc wrt the armed forces.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Oct 2011 14:54

Ah I knew Venu Menon. He was a good friend of my late cousin Suresh. I used to meet him on and off in Bangalore with Suresh.

About the speculative bit....there should'nt be any room for that on a board such as this...esp when we are discussing serious issues about op's/trg etc wrt the armed forces.


Absolutely. But it is always difficult on a forum like this. The common causes attributed to accidents on this forum are "shot down by Chinese" and "sabotage". Aside from these aircraft are not supposed to have accidents. It is after all a forum of enthusiasts who are not necessarily clued in. Many "enthusiasts" come to defence fora out of anxiety that all is not well and seek to clear their anxieties (acquired from Pakistani fora or other media) on this forum. So some leeway is required.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Oct 2011 12:07


prithvi

Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby prithvi » 07 Oct 2011 16:34


this is now becoming an ejection preparedness test

prithvi

Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby prithvi » 07 Oct 2011 23:24

Is this becoming so depressing that no one bothers discussing it anymore?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby eklavya » 08 Oct 2011 00:27

prithvi wrote:Is this becoming so depressing that no one bothers discussing it anymore?


It is depressing. Thank god the pilot survived. Difficult to say anything without knowing the cause of the accident. Whatever was the cause, it is a reminder of the importance of training, maintenance, inspections, environmental controls, safety culture, etc. and indeed timely replacement of the now v old MiG-21 fleet.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 08 Oct 2011 07:06

Sent to me on email from AM Rajkumar

MACH 3.18 IN-FLIGHT BREAKUP OF AN SR-71 BLACKBIRD
By Bill Weaver, Chief Test Pilot, Lockheed

Among professional aviators, there's a well-worn saying: Flying is simply hours of boredom punctuated by moments of stark terror. But I don't recall too many periods of boredom during my 30-year career with Lockheed - most of which was spent as a test pilot.

By far, the most memorable flight occurred on January 25, 1966 (SR-71A 64-17952)

Jim Zwayer, Lockheed flight-test specialist, and I were evaluating systems on an SR-71 Blackbird test from Edwards. We also were investigating procedures designed to reduce trim drag and improve high-Mach cruise performance. The latter involved flying with the center-of-gravity (CG) located further aft than normal, reducing the Blackbird's longitudinal stability.

We took off from Edwards at 11:20 a.m. and completed the mission's first leg without incident. After refueling from a KC-135 tanker, we turned eastbound, accelerated to a Mach 3.2-cruise speed and climbed to 78,000 ft., our initial cruise-climb altitude.

Several minutes into cruise, the right engine inlet's automatic control system malfunctioned, requiring a switch to manual control. The SR-71's inlet configuration was automatically adjusted during supersonic flight to decelerate airflow in the duct, slowing it to subsonic speed before reaching the engine's face. This was accomplished by the inlet's center-body spike translating aft, and by modulating the inlet's forward bypass doors.

Normally, these actions were scheduled automatically as a function of Mach number, positioning the normal shock wave (where air flow becomes subsonic ) inside the inlet to ensure optimum engine performance. Without proper scheduling, disturbances inside the inlet could result in the shock wave being expelled forward - a phenomenon known as an "inlet unstart."

That causes an instantaneous loss of engine thrust, explosive banging noises and violent yawing of the aircraft-like being in a train wreck. Unstarts were not uncommon at that time in the SR-71's development, but a properly functioning system would recapture the shock wave and restore normal operation.

On the planned test profile, we entered a programmed 35-deg. bank turn to the right. An immediate unstart occurred on the right engine, forcing the aircraft to roll further right and start to pitch up. I jammed the control stick as far left and forward as it would go.

No response. I instantly knew we were in for a wild ride.

I attempted to tell Jim what was happening and to stay with the airplane until we reached a lower speed and altitude. I didn't think the chances of surviving an ejection at Mach 3.18 and 78,800 ft. were very good. However, g-forces built up so rapidly that my words came out garbled and unintelligible, as confirmed later by the cockpit voice recorder.

The cumulative effects of system malfunctions, reduced longitudinal stability, increased angle-of-attack in the turn, supersonic speed, high altitude and other factors imposed forces on the airframe that exceeded flight control authority and the Stability Augmentation System's ability to restore control.

Everything seemed to unfold in slow motion. I learned later the time from event onset to catastrophic departure from controlled flight was only 2-3 seconds. Still trying to communicate with Jim, I blacked out, succumbing to extremely high g-forces.

Then the SR-71 . . literally . . disintegrated around us.

From that point, I was just along for the ride. And my next recollection was a hazy thought that I was having a bad dream. Maybe I'll wake up and get out of this mess, I mused. Gradually regaining consciousness, realized this was no dream; it had really happened. That also was disturbing, because . . I COULD NOT HAVE SURVIVED . . what had just happened.

I must be dead. Since I didn't feel bad - just a detached sense of euphoria - I decided being dead wasn't so bad after all. As full awareness took hold, I realized I was not dead. But somehow I had separated from the airplane.

I had no idea how this could have happened; I hadn't initiated an ejection. The sound of rushing air and what sounded like straps flapping in the wind confirmed I was falling, but I couldn't see anything. My pressure suit's face plate had frozen over and I was staring at a layer of ice.

The pressure suit was inflated, so I knew an emergency oxygen cylinder in the seat kit attached to my parachute harness was functioning. It not only supplied breathing oxygen, but also pressurized the suit, preventing my blood from boiling at extremely high altitudes. I didn't appreciate it at the time, but the suit's pressurization had also provided physical protection from intense buffeting and g-forces. That inflated suit had become my own escape capsule.

My next concern was about stability and tumbling. Air density at high altitude is insufficient to resist a body's tumbling motions, and centrifugal forces high enough to cause physical injury could develop quickly. For that reason, the SR-71's parachute system was designed to automatically deploy a small-diameter stabilizing chute shortly after ejection and seat separation. Since I had not intentionally activated the ejection system-and assuming all automatic functions depended on a proper ejection sequence-it occurred to me the stabilizing chute may not have deployed.

However, I quickly determined I was falling vertically and not tumbling. The little chute must have deployed and was doing its job. Next concern: the main parachute, which was designed to open automatically at 15,000 ft. Again I had no assurance the automatic-opening function would work.

I couldn't ascertain my altitude because I still couldn't see through the iced-up faceplate. There was no way to know how long I had been blacked-out or how far I had fallen. I felt for the manual-activation D-ring on my chute harness, but with the suit inflated and my hands numbed by cold, I couldn't locate it. I decided I'd better open the faceplate, try to estimate my height above the ground, then locate that "D" ring.

Just as I reached for the faceplate, I felt the reassuring sudden deceleration of main-chute deployment.

I raised the frozen faceplate and discovered its uplatch was broken. Using one hand to hold that plate up, I saw I was descending through a clear, winter sky with unlimited visibility. I was greatly relieved to see Jim's parachute coming down about a quarter of a mile away. I didn't think either of us could have survived the aircraft's breakup, so seeing Jim had also escaped lifted my spirits incredibly.

I could also see burning wreckage on the ground a few miles from where we would land. The terrain didn't look at all inviting-a desolate, high plateau dotted with patches of snow and no signs of habitation.

I tried to rotate the parachute and look in other directions. But with one hand devoted to keeping the face plate up and both hands numb from high-altitude, subfreezing temperatures, I couldn't manipulate the risers enough to turn. Before the breakup, we'd started a turn in the New Mexico-Colorado-Oklahoma-Texas border region. The SR-71 had a turning radius of about 100 Miles at that speed and altitude, so I wasn't even sure what state we were going to land in. But, because it was about 3:00 p.m., I was certain we would be spending the night out here.

At about 300 ft. above the ground, I yanked the seat kit's release handle and made sure it was still tied to me by a long lanyard. Releasing the heavy kit ensured I wouldn't land with it attached to my derriere, which could break a leg or cause other injuries. I then tried to recall what survival items were in that kit, as well as techniques I had been taught in survival training.

Looking down, I was startled to see a fairly large animal-perhaps an antelope-directly under me. Evidently, it was just as startled as I was because it literally took off in a cloud of dust.

My first-ever parachute landing was pretty smooth. I landed on fairly soft ground, managing to avoid rocks, cacti and antelopes. My chute was still billowing in the wind, though. I struggled to collapse it with one hand, holding the still-frozen faceplate up with the other.

" Can I help you ? " a voice said.

Was I hearing things? I must be hallucinating. Then I looked up and saw a guy walking toward me, wearing a cowboy hat. A helicopter was idling a short distance behind him. If I had been at Edwards and told the search-and-rescue unit that I was going to bail out over the Rogers Dry Lake at a particular time of day, a crew couldn't have gotten to me as fast as that cowboy-pilot had.

The gentleman was Albert Mitchell, Jr., owner of a huge cattle ranch in northeastern New Mexico. I had landed about 1.5 mi. from his ranch house-and from a hangar for his two-place Hughes helicopter. Amazed to see him, I replied I was having a little trouble with my chute. He walked over and collapsed the canopy, anchoring it with several rocks. He had seen Jim and me floating down and had radioed the New Mexico Highway Patrol, the Air Force and the nearest hospital.

Extracting myself from the parachute harness, I discovered the source of those flapping-strap noises heard on the way down. My seat belt and shoulder harness were still draped around me, attached and latched. The lap belt had been shredded on each side of my hips, where the straps had fed through knurled adjustment rollers. The shoulder harness had shredded in a similar manner across my back. The ejection seat had never left the airplane; I had been ripped out of it by the extreme forces, seat belt and shoulder harness still fastened.

I also noted that one of the two lines that supplied oxygen to my pressure suit had come loose, and the other was barely hanging on. If that second line had become detached at high altitude, the deflated pressure suit wouldn't have provided any protection. I knew an oxygen supply was critical for breathing and suit-pressurization, but didn't appreciate how much physical protection an inflated pressure suit could provide.

That the suit could withstand forces sufficient to disintegrate an airplane and shred heavy nylon seat belts, yet leave me with only a few bruises and minor whiplash was impressive. I truly appreciated having my own little escape capsule.

After helping me with the chute, Mitchell said he'd check on Jim. He climbed into his helicopter, flew a short distance away and returned about 10 min. later with devastating news: Jim was dead. Apparently, he had suffered a broken neck during the aircraft's disintegration and was killed instantly.

Mitchell said his ranch foreman would soon arrive to watch over Jim's body until the authorities arrived. I asked to see Jim and, after verifying there was nothing more that could be done, agreed to let Mitchell fly me to the Tucumcari hospital, about 60 mi. to the south.

I have vivid memories of that helicopter flight, as well. I didn't know much about rotorcraft, but I knew a lot about "red lines," and Mitchell kept the airspeed at or above red line all the way. The little helicopter vibrated and shook a lot more than I thought it should have. I tried to reassure the cowboy-pilot I was feeling OK; there was no need to rush. But since he'd notified the hospital staff that we were inbound, he insisted we get there as soon as possible. I couldn't help but think how ironic it would be to have survived one disaster only to be done in by the helicopter that had come to my rescue.

However, we made it to the hospital safely-and quickly. Soon, I was able to contact Lockheed's flight test office at Edwards. The test team there had been notified initially about the loss of radio and radar contact, then told the aircraft had been lost. They also knew what our flight conditions had been at the time, and assumed no one could have survived. I explained what had happened, describing in fairly accurate detail the flight conditions prior to breakup.

The next day, our flight profile was duplicated on the SR-71 flight simulator at Beale AFB, Calif. The outcome was identical. Steps were immediately taken to prevent a recurrence of our accident. Testing at a CG aft of normal limits was discontinued, and trim-drag issues were subsequently resolved via aerodynamic means. The inlet control system was continuously improved and, with subsequent development of the Digital Automatic Flight and Inlet Control System, inlet unstarts became rare.

Investigation of our accident revealed that the nose section of the aircraft had broken off aft of the rear cockpit and crashed about 10 mi. from the main wreckage. Parts were scattered over an area approximately 15 mi. long and 10 mi. wide. Extremely high air loads and g-forces, both positive and negative, had literally ripped Jim and me from the airplane. Unbelievably good luck is the only explanation for my escaping relatively unscathed from that disintegrating aircraft.

Two weeks after the accident, I was back in an SR-71, flying the first sortie on a brand-new bird at Lockheed's Palmdale, Calif., assembly and test facility. It was my first flight since the accident, so a flight test engineer in the back seat was probably a little apprehensive about my state of mind and confidence.

As we roared down the runway and lifted off, I heard an anxious voice over the intercom. " Bill ! Bill ! Are you there ?" " Yeah, George. What's the matter ?" " Thank God ! I thought you might have left. " The rear cockpit of the SR-71 has no forward visibility-only a small window on each side-and George couldn't see me. A big red light on the master-warning panel in the rear cockpit had illuminated just as we rotated, stating: " Pilot Ejected." Fortunately, the cause was a misadjusted micro switch, not my departure.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2011 06:06

From the IAF
To Err is Human Case Reports of Two Military Aircraft Accidents-Possible mechanisms of human failure

It has been postulated that pilot error or in-flight incapacitation may be the main contributory factors to 70–80% of aircraft accidents. Two fatal aircraft accidents are presented in which either of the above possibilities may have played a role. The first case report describes an erroneous decision by a fighter pilot to use a seat position adjustment of the ejection seat leading to fatal injuries when he had to eject from his aircraft. Injuries to the body of the pilot, and observations on the state of his flying clothing and the ejection seat were used to postulate the mechanism of fatal injury and establish the cause of the accident. The second case report describes the sequence of events which culminated in the incapacitation of a fighter pilot while executing a routine manouevre. This resulted in a fatal air crash. Possible contributions of environmental factors which may have resulted in failure of his physiological mechanisms are discussed.


Read the whole article folks especially the details of the second accident. It makes terrible reading but this is day to day forensic medical work.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby rohitvats » 09 Oct 2011 14:29

^^^Shiv, thanks for the article. It will help people understand that pilot error is not exactly same as forgetting to engage the gear in a car. It is a very wide and complex term encompassing lot of factors.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2011 20:43

rohitvats wrote:^^^Shiv, thanks for the article. It will help people understand


Thanks. But people will understand only if they bother reading it. I am not sure how many people actually bother opening links and reading such papers :D

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Nikhil T » 19 Oct 2011 10:58

BSF Dhruv crashes in Ranchi: 3 suspected killed

An Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) operated by the Border Security Force (BSF) is reported to have crashed near Ranchi. A senior HAL official said to Tarmak007 that: "Just now we have been informed about this incident."
Early reports coming in suggest that 3 people have been killed in this unfortunate incident. Sources say that among the 3 killed, 2 are pilots and another one a technician. The chopper had reportedly taken-off from Ranchi airport for Chaibasa and crashed near the forest area of Rampur. "The ALH was flown by Pawan Hans pilots," sources said.
More details awaited.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby kittoo » 19 Oct 2011 11:16

Another bad news :(

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 412398.cms

0
SHIMLA: An Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG 29 crashed in Himachal Pradesh's Lahaul Valley, police said on Wednesday, adding that rescue workers had begun to search for survivors in the treacherous mountain terrain.

There is no official confirmation about the number of people on board the aircraft that crashed on Tuesday night.

"A communication was received from the IAF at around 8.30 pm on Tuesday that a MiG 29 has crashed," Superintendent of Police Bimal Gupta said over phone.

"A team of rescue workers has reached Chokhan village from where they have started trudging up the mountains to reach the accident spot," he said.

"We are awaiting the arrival of the IAF teams. The accident spot is quite treacherous and inaccessible. IAF choppers are likely to be deployed to reach the spot," the officer added.

Chokhan village on the Keylong-Udaipur highway is about 40 km from the district headquarters of Keylong and 450 km from here.

"We have no information about the number of people on board the aircraft," deputy commissioner Rajeev Shankar said.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby krishnan » 19 Oct 2011 11:50

So they are not sure whethe its single seater or twin seater

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby manu_vashist » 19 Oct 2011 12:35

IBN is reporting it was a single seater
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/mig-29-crash ... 375-3.html

I hope Pilot is safe.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Abhibhushan » 19 Oct 2011 21:20


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby vasu_ray » 20 Oct 2011 02:27

the RLG is being used by Tejas giving it a good frame of reference, now one hopes that this along with the Digital Elevation Model maps generated from images taken by the Cartosats of the Himalayas should allow for a safe instrument only flying in the night time in the North and North-east

another type of navigation aid such as using Synthetic Aperture Radar pods integrated with the pilot's HUD allowing for all weather and night flying should also be added

It took a AN-32 crash in the NE to quickly upgrade the rest of the fleet with weather radars

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby saje » 20 Oct 2011 16:10

In the light of these accidents it becomes necessary to have some kind of a system to track, support and guide an aircraft from the time it leaves it's home base till it comes back. This system should allow operators at the home base to monitor the health of the aircraft and pilot and make decisions/take action or suggest decisions/suggest action to the pilot in case of any abnormalities.

This system could be of the same type as used by HAL to track the health of the LCA/other test aircraft while in flight, with the added feature of allowing a ground operator to take full control of the aircraft if the pilot is incapacitated/disoriented, in order to bring the aircraft safely back. Of course, such a system will be resisted by the pilot since it sort of 'babysits' the pilot throughout the flight but the situation is such that it has become a necessity.

We have too few aircraft and too few pilots and with successive crashes it is becoming clear that we simply cannot leave the fate of an aircraft and pilot in the hands of the pilot alone be it a Flying Officer or a Wing Commander. 'Two heads are better than one' is the way forward for this crash-ridden, fast depleting airforce!

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 20 Oct 2011 17:38

saje wrote:We have too few aircraft and too few pilots and with successive crashes it is becoming clear that we simply cannot leave the fate of an aircraft and pilot in the hands of the pilot alone be it a Flying Officer or a Wing Commander. 'Two heads are better than one' is the way forward for this crash-ridden, fast depleting airforce!


:(( :(( :(( How come you think the Air Force is incapable of coming up with your bright ideas and pilots are being sent upto die? Boss I think you may have your heart in the right place, but that is not a good enough excuse for ignorance leading to whining.

When was the last time you flew a civilian flight where the pilot insisted on landing in fog when we was ordered to divert the flight to some other airport? The Air Force have to fly through all sorts of weather at any time

What are these mythical systems you are talking about that "should allow operators at the home base to monitor the health of the aircraft and pilot and make decisions/take action or suggest decisions/suggest action to the pilot in case of any abnormalities." How do you know that such systems are not already in place and that accidents are taking place despite that? Have you read this?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... aguar.html


You have written:
with the added feature of allowing a ground operator to take full control of the aircraft if the pilot is incapacitated/disoriented, in order to bring the aircraft safely back

This is complete nonsense sir. I think you are winding me up personally by displaying lots of fancy ideas and no knowledge of what fighters are doing and how a ground operator could save an aircraft if it was heading for the ground at 1000 kmph with the pilot disorientated?

Of course, such a system will be resisted by the pilot since it sort of 'babysits' the pilot throughout the flight but the situation is such that it has become a necessity.
Pah! You are copy pasting what you are reading about civilian flights into combat jets.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_20011 » 21 Oct 2011 00:39

Hello All

Given the fact we have regular military flights in mountain area and it takes hell lot of time to find the pilot in case there is crash . Then why do not we have some kind of beacon system on Ejection seat which can help trace the pilot and may save his life.

PS: This is my first post. So please go easy on me if this questions has been asked before.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby tsarkar » 21 Oct 2011 01:20

vasu_ray wrote:the RLG is being used by Tejas giving it a good frame of reference, now one hopes that this along with the Digital Elevation Model maps generated from images taken by the Cartosats of the Himalayas should allow for a safe instrument only flying in the night time in the North and North-east
vasu_ray wrote:another type of navigation aid such as using Synthetic Aperture Radar pods integrated with the pilot's HUD allowing for all weather and night flying should also be added
saje wrote:In the light of these accidents it becomes necessary to have some kind of a system to track, support and guide an aircraft from the time it leaves it's home base till it comes back.


Aircraft like 80's vintage MiG-29 carry a lot of navigation avionics like -

standard radio
emergency radio
INS – Inertial Navigation System
TACAN – Tactical Navigation
SHORAN - Short Range Navigation
RAM – Radar Altimeter
VOR – VHF omnidirectional range
DME - Distance measuring equipment
ILS – Instrumented Landing System
ADF – Automatic Direction Finder
NVG - Night Vision Goggles
and ofcourse GPS, either standalone or integrated with INS

However, many of these systems are dependent on ground based systems that may be unavailable in outside airfield infrastructure.

Onboard systems emit, and may be detected by enemy ELINT aircraft, so are often switched off.

There is the Radio Altimeter, but when fighters fly fast and low like this
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 736858.JPG
the RAM or INS isn't much helpful. The terrain in Lahul/Spiti/Kaza/Keylong is more steeper and deeper than the picture here. RAM or INS, when one is manoeuvring in mountains and valleys and if one make a slightest control error or there is a malfunction, one doesn't have much time to react.

shivagarg wrote:Then why do not we have some kind of beacon system on Ejection seat which can help trace the pilot and may save his life.
Beacons are there, but deep valleys in steep mountains prevent beacon signals from travelling outside the valley. Also, they are battery powered and inevitably lose power with time.

SAR Pods – Fine, one gets a real time map. But do they indicate height or depth? No. The image is 2D with no depth perception.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 59437.aspx
The search operation is now focused on the high passes between the Kugti wildlife sanctuary and the Chobia Pass, located at an altitude of 5,000 m above sea level.
"The entire mountain range in the interiors of Lahaul and Spiti is treacherous, and it's really difficult to trace the wreckage as the hills are quite steep and gorges are narrow," Shankar said.
An IAF AN-12 aircraft with 102 defence personnel on board, including six crew members, crashed on the 17,400-feet-high Dakka glacier in the Chandrebhaga ranges in Lahaul and Spiti Feb 7, 1968. Only four bodies were recovered

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby jai » 21 Oct 2011 01:51

Image

Image

Image

Image

For those unfamiliar with the terrain - these are from the same area last year - taken from the Keylong - Udaipur road.

Would be very difficult to find the wreckage here, very steep mountains and gorges on the sides, deep valley of very fast flowing Chandrabhaga (Chenab further downstream), sparsely populated area, cut off from the world for 6 months each winter as the passes close...

My prayers are with the pilot and his family.

Saw 29's in the Leh Valley just earlier this month on regular training sorties.......was marvelling on their flying skills as they gracefully ballet-ed in the steep valley's ...one can only imagine how difficult it gets at night....I take my hat off to IAF and our air warriors.

Apologies - my first pics on BR, did not know how to make them smaller - any help is welcome to help me post smaller thumbs next time. Mods, apologies if posted in the wrong forum, please feel free to move as required. Thanks.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby PratikDas » 21 Oct 2011 03:17

Jai, thank you for the fantastic and relevant pics. I appreciate it. You can use imageshack.us or some other service to post their smaller versions while linking to the larger ones. You could also post links more easily as below
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4

Code: Select all

[url=http://i56.tinypic.com/fonplf.jpg]Pic 1[/url]
[url=http://i53.tinypic.com/ek2cjq.jpg]Pic 2[/url]
[url=http://i56.tinypic.com/28u1zc7.jpg]Pic 3[/url]
[url=http://i51.tinypic.com/34i2qt3.jpg]Pic 4[/url]

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby vasu_ray » 21 Oct 2011 06:48

Those pictures are beautiful, if not for the biting reality

Elaborating on the INS approach, the locus of the flight can be traced in real time and superimposed on the pre-built terrain maps, based on the flight's current motion parameters (roll, yaw, pitch, velocity vector), make a predictive path that could be traversed for the next 5 secs, this prediction gets revised every moment, this is nothing new, we know the Tejas is fly by wire, with the flight computer doing the actual flying while the pilot is really navigating with the flight computer doing similar 'sensing'

At any point the predictive path meets the terrain map, the autopilot will not let the pilot make that move, now at the same time the navigational software will provide alternate paths the Pilot could safely take, the pilot sees all this on his HUD, also, so far we haven't seen any radio emissions

In a situation of "CFIT at 1000kmph" like when the hard turn the Jaguar from the last crash was making, it would not have turned into a full roll inadvertently had the autopilot limited the pilot's input based on predictive path and internally stored terrain maps

from news reports, Jaguar's were added auto pilots in 2010, not the full fleet yet, we have to see if the one that crashed had autopilot

Back to the Mig-29 crash, if the pilot sees the prebuilt terrain map on his HUD relative to his position even when he is traversing the valleys in the night, his situational awareness is enhanced greatly. Just note that the RLG is probably of higher fidelity than the Mig's current INS just based on the timeline of their development and the former is proven in modern high g missile maneuvers

when relating to information not provided by prebuilt maps, SAR pods supplement with all weather radar imagery and should be carrying depth information just because they rely on radio echo

two different complementary systems is reliability

once AESA radars make way to the fighters, one could take the current PESA radars onto the transport fleet assuming these fighter radars can support SAR or ground mapping mode; with IAF preparing for night ops in one of the most difficult terrain, the transports need navigation aids as well and not just a weather radar which are probably good for detours only

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby arnabh » 21 Oct 2011 08:12


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby saps » 21 Oct 2011 10:49

There is lots of lip service paid to the issues at hand. No one especially the ones with weight on their shoulder or chips on their ranks seriously bothered about the spate of incidents and take a call about the sorry state of affairs.
There is a serious inward view required in terms of mission that are envisaged in today's high pace combat weather in day or night and the right mix of equipment that available to ensure task accomplishment with desired level of safety.

With the legacy avionics we are just bordering on the threshold of "Just barely being safe" however there are no redundant systems and get home instruments which would obviate any mission failure due to part of human link failure.

Modern generation aircrafts have moved on from TERCOM to TERPROM and some of them can do a ultra Low level flying in best of himalayan hills with pilot being hands off. Do you think that IAF is even thinking about what all it "MUST HAVE" to ensure that mission accomplishment is as important as safety of crew+machine.

In my opinion there should be a CAG audit of the Cost Vs Benefit analysis of the lack of upgrades (System+safety features in our legacy falling apart machines) versus the amount saved by the nation in not upgrading them with adequate systems or features. SOMEONE should be held accountable & responsible for the state of affairs. The poor soul in cockpit is still human and is bound to get into realms of failure. But he pays for it with his life whereas the people who are failing to do the tasks sitting in ac offices with mantle of decision making on their head can brush aside the headlines on the newspaper and continue living normally.

IT is the lack of accountability in highest decision making bodies of MOD+ which is resulting in such news and a very sad state of affair for our country.

RIP brave soul for they know not....

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby wig » 21 Oct 2011 11:12

Villagers claim to spot MiG plane wreckage; search hampered since it has been snowing in the area
Jagdish Sharma, pradhan of Thirot panchayat who along with four other villagers had climbed the mountain to locate the remains of the plane, said they have found the tyre and other parts of the aircraft around 500 metre below the Chokhang peak.

"We have found a tyre, a bearing-type equipment and two yellow and blue small boxes. Other parts of the plane are lying around 500 metre above the place, where we found these things," claimed Sharma.

Sharma and his team have carried other parts with them while they left the tyre at the spot as it was too heavy to carry and weather too turned hostile. "It was snowing and visibility was turning poor so we had to return to Thirot," said Sharma.

Others villagers who managed to reach near the accident site include Subhash, Sudershan, Rajinder of Jholing village and Avinash of Sendhwari village. They had started around 7am from Thirot village and reached near the spot of mishap around 3pm.

Sharma said that one spot near the peak had turned black as it seemed that the plane had crashed at that point and explosion discoloured it. "We are going to inform the local police station and SP Lahaul-Spiti about the recovery we have made," he added.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 436080.cms

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 21 Oct 2011 12:54

saps wrote:
Modern generation aircrafts have moved on from TERCOM to TERPROM and some of them can do a ultra Low level flying in best of himalayan hills with pilot being hands off. Do you think that IAF is even thinking about what all it "MUST HAVE" to ensure that mission accomplishment is as important as safety of crew+machine.


Cut the hype mate. What's all this about "Do you think that IAF is even thinking about yada yada". What makes you think you know what they are thinking or not thinking? And what the hell makes you think that is the mother of all solutions when you have provided no data as to the cause of accidents? "World has moved from this to that" is a whole lot of crap. If you are able to explain why something would be better for the IAF, who makes it, who uses it, under what conditions it is useful and where that would be different. This rhetoric and hype is what i see too much of and I am equally capable of retorting with similar meaningless tripe. All of us spend enough time in front of TV or on the internet to imagine that we can solve all the IAF's issues but that is basically nonsense.

If you have some useful info, kindly vomit it out pronto or else keep the noise levels down to a bare minimum.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby vasu_ray » 22 Oct 2011 08:19

Ok, TERPROM is the keyword for 'blind flying' and wiki says these aircraft of relevance to us have it,

M2K, Harrier, Jaguar, Typhoon, Hawk, C-130 and C-17

unfortunately IAF versions may not have it yet

M2k's latest upgrade might include it

Indian Jaguars do not have it, on the latest Jaguar upgrade,
http://indiadefenceonline.com/1453/hal-to-tie-up-with-bae-systems-for-jaguar-upgrade/

"Navigational accuracy will be enhanced through the addition of an INS-RLG (SAGEM Sigma 95) and a Terrain Reference Navigation System (TRNS) is likely to be added. Another striking incorporation is of the new Open Systems Architecture Mission Computer (OSAMC) system which will carry out the mission computing and display functions. An ELTA-built airborne self-protection jammer and an indigenous radar warning receiver (RWR) will be installed."

however on its own, it wouldn't have helped the last crash since it was the pilot losing control

Hawk might have it since its a recent acquisition

C-130, wiki page says,
"The Indian Air Force purchased six C-130J-30s in early 2008 at a cost of up to US$1.059 billion[27] for its special
operations forces in a package deal with the US government under its Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program. India has options to buy six more of these aircraft.[28] The Indian government decided not to sign the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), which resulted in the exclusion of high precision GPS and other sensitive equipment. The IAF may add similar equipment to the aircraft after delivery.[29] In October 2011, India announced its intent to exercise the option for the six additional aircraft, following the credible performance of the C-130J in the 2011 Sikkim earthquake relief operations.[30]"

GPS is integrated with a INS system and in principle is needed to support the TERPROM system, most likely the INS-RLG (SAGEM Sigma 95) will be used

C-17 will have similar conditions

--------------------------------
On the Mig-29 upgrade,

"it also adds terrain following mode, and ground target acquisition including high-resolution modes. "

hopefully all of these aircrafts have auto pilot so instead of just verbal warnings in the cockpit from the TERPROM or like system, another software layer that gives feedback directly to the auto pilot by setting safe limits is needed,
work for DARE?

btw, the technology for TERPROM was available a decade before


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