Military Flight Safety

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rohitvats
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby rohitvats » 28 Oct 2011 22:01

From Livefist - The crash site location.

Image

The earlier PIB release about the crash site and operations can be better understood with the above picture. Some excerpts from the PIB report:

Yesterday, on 26 Oct 2011, the Task Force Commander Gp Capt P K Sharma VM, coordinating the search for the missing MiG-29 aircraft and pilot, confirmed locating crash site at 15000’ AMSL above ‘Chokhang’ village in ‘Lahaul’ area. He informed that several components of the aircrafts have been recovered after digging under the snow and rubble. These are being brought down to base camp for proper identification.


The IAF search teams were dropped on the ledge 200m above the suspected crash site at an elevation of 15000’ AMSL. This is about 5000’ above the valley base along village ‘Chokhang’. The ground search party was divided in groups to cover the bowl and the slopes on either side of the ridge where the images had indicated presence of debris. At a gradient of 70-80 degree and in an avalanche prone area, the progress could not have been faster. Eight expert mountaineers including three from Army were dropped on the ledge by helicopter. They spent the night on the ledge with just basic survival gear. Visual reconnaissance of the area by helicopter on subsequent days could not confirm the exact crash site since the area was now covered under fresh snow.

Since 19 Oct the search parties have continued to manually clear the snow and digging the earth on these treacherous slopes using shovels and pickaxes in the area along the lines of impact, in search of the debris. In the mean time, a base camp was set up at 13000’ AMSL on a ledge to provide support to the search party. About 55 personnel in all including expert mountaineers from the IAF, Army and some hired mountaineers are involved in the search of the pilot & debris of the missing aircraft.

Altair
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Altair » 28 Oct 2011 22:10

ramana wrote:
bodhi wrote:http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=16282

Crash site located. Its the same place which the villagers had reported about.



The Search Task Force leader is the same one who earlier got the VM for rescuing people with a helicopter.


Also,
Wg Cdr S K Kutty and Sqn Ldr N Rawat

You guys rock! TRUE INDIAN HEROES. I salute you.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Karan M » 30 Oct 2011 02:18

The terrain is so inhospitable. Prayers with Sqdn Ldr. Tomar and his family. :(

Altair
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Altair » 30 Oct 2011 23:10

Karan M wrote:The terrain is so inhospitable. Prayers with Sqdn Ldr. Tomar and his family. :(

Can wreckage experts determine if he ejected?

bodhi
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby bodhi » 31 Oct 2011 00:18

**deleted link**


Newbie Question: How was the Su 30 in visual contact of the 2 Migs in the night?
Last edited by Jagan on 31 Oct 2011 08:20, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: link deleted - most people know why.

Surya
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Surya » 31 Oct 2011 00:24

Sigh - why don't you ask the retard who wrote that??

Anyway the pain of Tomar's loss is being felt in both AF and Army circles.


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Shubham » 05 Nov 2011 19:35

Ejection Alarm Systems

Since decades back there have been systems incorporated with Ejection Seat(i.e. MB-H4HA) that reports Ejection of the seat automatically on the VHF Distress Frequency, these systems were called VEER Alarm(VHF Energized Ejection Alarm System).

The motive of this automatic system was that in case the ejection is unplanned i.e. pilot doesn't have time to report his status on R/T, this alarm gets energized just after pulling the handle and the controllers can determine that there has been an ejection of one of their ac and SAR could be activated immediately.

Sometimes such systems cause a false alarm due to loose connections or like-wise in which case the sop is that all ac maintain R/T silence and report ops-normal till it is determined that everything is ok and the ac with the snag is to land asap.

So this brings out the fact that it is very much required to have an automatic ejection alarm system in the fighter ac. A false alarm can easily be detected and singled out, but having to operate a manual alarm has lots of disadvantages.


Since I am no expert on this issue, there are a few questions that I would like to pose here
1. In the above system I mentioned, I found no reference that the VEER Alarm is a part of Ejection Seat, so till that time I would assume that the Tx of the Alarm is a part of ac and it works from the time handle is pulled to the time the ac impacts the ground and the Alarm dis-integrates ( again I don't think that VEER Alarm is anything sturdy as a black box).

2. We all have seen the movie- Behind enemy lines, in which there was a beacon in the ejection seat as well as a handheld R/T in the survival pack.


My info was based on decades old tech. , so what was present in Mig-29 is an open question for us.

saps
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby saps » 05 Nov 2011 22:33

Veer Alarm, as covered is an ancient system.

I had written in the earlier post about the carriage of SARBE-8 system; if i am correct then i think that almost all the fleet of IAF are likely to get, or in the process of fitting with the system.

ITS a CSAR capable system, pl have a look on the capability of PLB or pilot locator beacon capable of CSAR specs.

There would have been some issues with the carriage or usage of the equipment; no one can discount that or else we would have had tomer amongst us by now.

Terrain is "RUTHLESS" to say the least. Any of you who have been on mountaineering courses on any such terrain would simply understand that its difficult if not impossible to sustain the drive and light of survival if you are injured or incapacitated in such a terrain.

Lets hope for the best, after all miracles do happen.

SARBE-8 is the key word here.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Abhibhushan » 06 Nov 2011 11:36

Another old tale of an aircraft accident

I mourn for Karthigeyan

rohitvats
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby rohitvats » 06 Nov 2011 13:52

^^^Excellent.

Many thanxs for posting this. Shows how complex is the job of flying and how we should not jump to conclusions at the drop of a hat.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2011 14:11

Abhibhushan wrote:Another old tale of an aircraft accident

I mourn for Karthigeyan


That is a gripping write-up of a sad story. I think that for jingos and armchair marshals on BR the story shows what great detail is considered in an accident investigation. The particularly galling accusation made on here that the Air Force does not care is unfair and I mention it only to condemn it.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby chetak » 06 Nov 2011 14:52

Altair wrote:
Karan M wrote:The terrain is so inhospitable. Prayers with Sqdn Ldr. Tomar and his family. :(

Can wreckage experts determine if he ejected?


Very Easily.

If the cockpit or even a part of it can be examined, there will be enough evidence to detect if the seat has fired.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby chetak » 06 Nov 2011 14:57

Shubham wrote:Ejection Alarm Systems

Since decades back there have been systems incorporated with Ejection Seat(i.e. MB-H4HA) that reports Ejection of the seat automatically on the VHF Distress Frequency, these systems were called VEER Alarm(VHF Energized Ejection Alarm System).



The Martin Baker H4HA seat never did have this system in the IN.

Didn't hear of it in the IAF either.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Shubham » 06 Nov 2011 16:43

Image

Kirans of Suryakirans had the VEER Alarm. In the pic you could read the inscription "Ejection Alarm System" on the panel to the right of stick and bottom of demisting-air conditioning pipe. The toggle switch is also a part of the alarm.

Surya
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Surya » 06 Nov 2011 19:52

In addition to the report on Karthigeyan

just see the effort the Air Force and army expend as they continue to look for the young pilot.

A lot of people are risking their lives in such terrain - shows the lengths the armed forces go to

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby atreya » 06 Nov 2011 19:54

Search operation comes to a conclusion. Sqn Leader D.S. Tomar's remains have been recovered. :(

http://www.inewsone.com/2011/11/06/miss ... ad-2/88261

rohitvats
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby rohitvats » 06 Nov 2011 19:56

X-poting from SF thread:


Search operation comes to a conclusion. Sqn Leader D.S. Tomar's remains have been recovered.

http://www.inewsone.com/2011/11/06/miss%20...%20ad-2/88261


May god grant his soul peace and courage to the family.

I guess, the fate of the pilot was a foregone conclusion. The recovery of the body will give some closure to the family.

Must appreciate all the effort put in by the IAF in an extremely difficult terrain and over such a long period.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Surya » 06 Nov 2011 20:21

rohit

and by Army

rohitvats
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby rohitvats » 06 Nov 2011 20:28

Surya wrote:rohit and by Army


Yup....I think there were men from Ladakh Scouts and HAWS.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Sid » 06 Nov 2011 23:11

I was reading through similar crashes where combat aircraft crashed into the sides of mountains. This perticular USAF's operation lasted month's until human remains were recovered.

This show's how much difficult these search and recovery missions can be and we are not the first one to face it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_D._Button#Search_and_recovery
The search for the crash site was conducted by the US Air Force, Colorado Air National Guard and the Civil Air Patrol. A U-2 reconnaissance plane from Beale Air Force Base in California overflew the area and identified five possible sites. Twenty days after Button's aircraft disappeared, an Air Force TH-53A helicopter spotted metal fragments in the snow on Gold Dust Peak. Steep terrain, bad weather, high winds, deep snow, rock slides and avalanches hampered access to the site.[21] Rodents were even found to be chewing through the ropes of recovery personnel.[22] It was several more days before the wreckage was confirmed to be Captain Button's missing A-10. It took another four months to recover the human remains.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby biswas » 06 Nov 2011 23:35

Sid wrote:I was reading through similar crashes where combat aircraft crashed into the sides of mountains. This perticular USAF's operation lasted month's until human remains were recovered.

This show's how much difficult these search and recovery missions can be and we are not the first one to face it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_D._Button#Search_and_recovery
The search for the crash site was conducted by the US Air Force, Colorado Air National Guard and the Civil Air Patrol. A U-2 reconnaissance plane from Beale Air Force Base in California overflew the area and identified five possible sites. Twenty days after Button's aircraft disappeared, an Air Force TH-53A helicopter spotted metal fragments in the snow on Gold Dust Peak. Steep terrain, bad weather, high winds, deep snow, rock slides and avalanches hampered access to the site.[21] Rodents were even found to be chewing through the ropes of recovery personnel.[22] It was several more days before the wreckage was confirmed to be Captain Button's missing A-10. It took another four months to recover the human remains.


That incident was 14 years ago.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby manu_vashist » 07 Nov 2011 00:47

RIP Brother

Jagan
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Jagan » 07 Nov 2011 01:05

shiv wrote:
Abhibhushan wrote:Another old tale of an aircraft accident

I mourn for Karthigeyan


That is a gripping write-up of a sad story. I think that for jingos and armchair marshals on BR the story shows what great detail is considered in an accident investigation. The particularly galling accusation made on here that the Air Force does not care is unfair and I mention it only to condemn it.


It was an excellent look on how the CoI works.. amazing reading..

sum
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby sum » 02 Dec 2011 14:30

X-post:
sum wrote:Another MiG-21 goes down:
14:25 'Flying Coffin' MiG 21crashes in Haryana, no casualties : Just in: A MiG 21, also called a Flying Coffin, has crashed in Sirsa in Haryana. No casualties have been reported.

DDM chips in with "also called a flying coffin".. :roll: :roll:

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby nachiket » 02 Dec 2011 22:53

^^Glad the pilot is safe. Let's hope it is not a Bison.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Abhibhushan » 03 Dec 2011 16:40

On re-reading the previous pages I just realized that there is a false impression that the survival kit stays with the seat on ejection. Let me inform you all that the survival pack including the locator beacon stays linked with the pilots harness through a lanyard when the seat separates from the pilot and his deploying parachute. Therefore, please be assured that an ejected pilot in not required to go hunting for his kit after he touches ground.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Shrinivasan » 04 Dec 2011 04:28

Thank goodness the pilot is safe, looks like a technical glitch which was detected pretty early in the sortie. Did the mig-21 have soem onboard semsors to detect the glitch? Don't they have any premission diagnostics tools to check the aircraft. I remember something like this for M2ks.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 04 Dec 2011 05:52

Shrinivasan wrote:Thank goodness the pilot is safe, looks like a technical glitch which was detected pretty early in the sortie. Did the mig-21 have soem onboard semsors to detect the glitch? Don't they have any premission diagnostics tools to check the aircraft. I remember something like this for M2ks.


No. The MiG 21 has nothing of the sort. That does not mean that all "glitches" will go undetected. Fuel gauge, oil pressure sensors, attitude/altitude sensors, engine RPM, temperature gauges, response of the aircraft to control inputs all give warning signals to the pilot.

The medical analogy is the difference between a paediatrician looking at an infant (pilot in MiG 21) and an adult doctor (modern aircraft). No matter what the illness the child cries, does not eat, and looks sick and will not say exactly what's up. The adult will tell the doctor "I have a pain in my belly/butt/fever"

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby chiru » 13 Dec 2011 14:13

Third Su-30mki crash today, reported just minutes ago near pune in Kashnand village, both pilots safe !

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby sum » 13 Dec 2011 14:19

3rd or 2nd?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby chiru » 13 Dec 2011 14:22

sum wrote:3rd or 2nd?


todays the 3rd incident :((

1st on 30 april 09
2nd on 30 nov 09

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rahul M » 13 Dec 2011 14:46

at least the pilots are safe, hope no injuries either.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby chackojoseph » 13 Dec 2011 14:55

X post.

Indian Air force SU-30 MKI crashes in Pune

Spares are a problem here too. I will add more into the issue. keep refreshing after some time.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Kailash » 13 Dec 2011 15:49

13 Navy personnel escape fire

MANGALORE: Thirteen Navy personnel on board the Indian Navy helicopter (IN566), which stopped at Mangalore Airport to refuel, had a providential escape when the fire which erupted near the rotors was swiftly contained by the alert rescue and fire fighting services in Mangalore Airport on Monday.

Mangalore Airport sources said that at 10.45 am the Garuda Indian Navy helicopter (Call sign/registration IN556 type) flying from Cochin to Mumbai landed at Mangalore for refueling.

When the helicopter moved to parking stand 1, smoke was first seen near the rotors and CISF personnel reported the smoke to ATC at 10.56 am. When the smoke which subsequently developed into fire could not be contained with carbon monoxide, the services of Airports Authority of India (AAI) swung into act.

“There was no casualty and all 13 personnel on board were safe,” Mangalore Airport director M R Vasudeva informed. The helicopter was declared not air-worthy and grounded at the Mangalore Airport. The 13 personnel were shifted to Mumbai in a doriner aircraft, sources from the airport told Express.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby anand_sankar » 16 Dec 2011 18:27

Happens to the best of them! For those who blamed the Russians for faulty cockpit ergonomics in the first Su-30MKI crash, read the Alaska F-22 crash report.

http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_16%20Nov%2010.pdf


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Kailash » 20 Jan 2012 16:11

HAL trashes DGCA findings on pilot, manual

Hit by Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA)’s findings into the 2010 August Chetak crash, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) launched a strong defence terming some of the comments as “incorrect”.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby eklavya » 31 Jan 2012 20:38

:cry:

IAF trainer aircraft crashes near Chennai
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 698637.cms

CHENNAI: A Kiran Trainer Aircraft of IAF today crashed on the outskirts of the city during a routine training sortie, but both the pilots ejected to safety.

The two-seater aircraft, which left the Air Force Station at suburban Tambaram, crashed near Iyancherry village, some 30 km from here, police said.

"A Court of Inquiry has been ordered to find out the reasons for the crash", a Defence Ministry release said.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby jimmy_moh » 01 Feb 2012 15:46

^^ actually i do have dout here.. these aircrafts are for trainers right.. then why Wing Co and Sqn Ldr... doing sorties with trainers..?


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