Military Flight Safety

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rahul M » 06 Mar 2012 00:37

I didn't say gururani crashed due to engine trouble. there were 2 other crashes in at least one of which turbine blade came off. the other was due to engine trouble too IIRC but not sure.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2012 14:41

Shankaraa wrote:What was the outcome of any investigation?

What remedial actions were taken?




Here are a few articles that have been posted on BR and BRf that should give you background information on answers to the questions you have asked above

Flight Safety - The Indian environment - from Vayu 2004

I mourn For Kathigeyan - by brfite Abhibhushan
Here is another story from Abhibhushan
Breaking an Aircraft


A tale of two hydraulics systems

MiG 21 much maligned


Below is a link to an online Magazine deals with IAF safety issues
http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_page.php?pg_id=265

Taken from the above link, red the article entitled "I was Lucky Enough"
http://indianairforce.nic.in/fsmagazines/Jan12.pdf


Below is the detailed 75 page report on the crash of the test aircraft Saras
http://dgca.nic.in/accident/reports/VT-XRM.pdf


The article below is not so much about flight safety but about whether the IAF really cares or not about accidents
Kempy's Nose

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_20453 » 06 Mar 2012 16:22

damn :(

Another one?


Damn it is quite embarrasing we loose so many of our frontline fighters to crashes.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2012 16:47

Septimus P. wrote:damn :(

Another one?


Damn it is quite embarrasing we loose so many of our frontline fighters to crashes.

Embarrassing? Of all the emotions to have? :shock:

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby jimmy_moh » 06 Mar 2012 17:54

question to gurus..... what is the safe altitude and speed for ejection...
i heard that many times eventough pilot survived the crash he may not be in a position for retaining his flying status.....

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Zynda » 06 Mar 2012 18:43

jimmy_moh wrote:question to gurus..... what is the safe altitude and speed for ejection...
i heard that many times eventough pilot survived the crash he may not be in a position for retaining his flying status.....


Let me take a stab at it. Most modern fighters' ejection seats have a zero-zero rating i.e. they can eject at 0 speed and 0 altitude. Theoretically its 0-0.

During an ejection sequence, forces acting on body are extreme. I am sure pilots go through a lot of training to maintain an erect/straight upper body posture during ejection sequence. If they fail to maintain that posture for some reason, chances are they might have suffered some kind of spinal injury which would make them flight unworthy. Hope that gives some answer to your second question.

May be doc can provide more accurate answers.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Indaruta » 06 Mar 2012 19:34

Is it not rather surprising that we have two mirage crashes just after the Rafale deal? I smell sabotage by vested interests.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2012 21:56

jimmy_moh wrote:what is the safe altitude and speed for ejection...
i heard that many times eventough pilot survived the crash he may not be in a position for retaining his flying status.....


There is no such thing as absolute safe speed and altitude as far as I know. Zero-Zero seats work at zero altitude zero speed. Ejection at supersonic speed is dangerous, but people have survived. A plane that is very close to the ground and rapidly going downwards is bad for ejection, worse if it is upside down, obviously.

As long as ejection leaves the pilot far enough above the ground for the chute to billow and the fall to decelerate the descent will be OK. But the act of ejection (exceeds 25 G for a few microseconds) invariably causes some damage to the spine. The amount of damage can vary. Microfractures (mild backache needing weeks of rest) are common. More severe damage can take a pilot off flying.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2012 22:11

Marten wrote:
Septimus P. wrote:damn :(

Another one?


Damn it is quite embarrasing we loose so many of our frontline fighters to crashes.


OT: Herr Doktor, the embarrassment is probably mostly about not being able to spell "losing".
I'm sure there is a lot of pain over the near tragedy and a lot of sympathy for the pilots who will probably take months to recover.


LOL

Embarrassment comes from visiting too many Paki fora and seeing them laughing. The way to avoid that is
1. Hide your crashes, like the Chinese
2. Stop looking at Pakis for approval, respect and admiration, which is what many Indians seem to want

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby atreya » 06 Mar 2012 22:15

Shiv gaaru, at zero speed and zero altitude, how far up does the ejection seat go before the parachute opens? The video of an F-18 landing on an aircraft carrier and snapping the arresting wire shows a zero-zero ejection, I think (almost, as the speed wasn't very much). It doesn't seem to go very far up, though.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby anand_sankar » 06 Mar 2012 23:04

@Zynda is right.

Ejection posture is part of training. It helps minimize the impact of the upward force. Also it helps that your body and mind are prepared for the ejection when the ejection is planned.

Spinal injury apart, the next most common injuries are when the limbs flail and come in contact with the cockpit sides when ejecting or impact of canopy or canopy debris. Some ejection seats have a shroud you pull over your head and restraints for hands and legs. And finally you can injure yourself pretty badly if your parachute landing gets botched!

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2012 06:20

atreya wrote:Shiv gaaru, at zero speed and zero altitude, how far up does the ejection seat go before the parachute opens? The video of an F-18 landing on an aircraft carrier and snapping the arresting wire shows a zero-zero ejection, I think (almost, as the speed wasn't very much). It doesn't seem to go very far up, though.


An F-18 that is descending on to a deck already has a downward velocity, and that downward velocity will reduce the upward acceleration of the ejection seat (like throwing a rock backwards at 50 kmph from a bus moving forwards at 25 kmph) unless the ejection takes place after the plane hits the deck. Then if the plane goes off the edge - once again it is accelerating downwards by an amount that will counteract some of the upward acceleration of the ejection. So unless the plane is flat on the deck it will not be a zero downward velocity or acceleration and the height the seat reaches will not be as much as when the plane is flat or climbing which is like throwing a rock forwards from a bus moving forward.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Kartik » 08 Mar 2012 01:28

shiv wrote:LOL

Embarrassment comes from visiting too many Paki fora and seeing them laughing. The way to avoid that is
1. Hide your crashes, like the Chinese
2. Stop looking at Pakis for approval, respect and admiration, which is what many Indians seem to want


One couldn't have put it better. Spot on here Shivji. I'm embarrassed to see so many Indians posting on a Pakistani defence forum..no doubt the second point you made explains that.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Indranil » 08 Mar 2012 01:46

shiv wrote:
atreya wrote:Shiv gaaru, at zero speed and zero altitude, how far up does the ejection seat go before the parachute opens? The video of an F-18 landing on an aircraft carrier and snapping the arresting wire shows a zero-zero ejection, I think (almost, as the speed wasn't very much). It doesn't seem to go very far up, though.


An F-18 that is descending on to a deck already has a downward velocity, and that downward velocity will reduce the upward acceleration of the ejection seat (like throwing a rock backwards at 50 kmph from a bus moving forwards at 25 kmph) unless the ejection takes place after the plane hits the deck. Then if the plane goes off the edge - once again it is accelerating downwards by an amount that will counteract some of the upward acceleration of the ejection. So unless the plane is flat on the deck it will not be a zero downward velocity or acceleration and the height the seat reaches will not be as much as when the plane is flat or climbing which is like throwing a rock forwards from a bus moving forward.


Just to add ... there are so many more variables. As a sky-diver I know so many complications with parachutes ... It is not just that you would suddenly slowdown to survivable speeds the moment the parachute deploys ... the deployment of the parachute itself and the deceleration itself depend on so many things and orientations. I am pretty sure ejecting from a standstill plane is very very dangerous ... it might save you, but you might get seriously hurt. when it comes to parachutes ... the keyword is height!

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_20067 » 08 Mar 2012 06:29

Red Arrow incident comes to mind.. here even the parachute failed to open after ejecting from a stationary Hawk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ident.html

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Kersi D » 08 Mar 2012 10:22

shiv wrote:
jimmy_moh wrote:what is the safe altitude and speed for ejection...
i heard that many times eventough pilot survived the crash he may not be in a position for retaining his flying status.....


There is no such thing as absolute safe speed and altitude as far as I know. Zero-Zero seats work at zero altitude zero speed. Ejection at supersonic speed is dangerous, but people have survived. A plane that is very close to the ground and rapidly going downwards is bad for ejection, worse if it is upside down, obviously.

As long as ejection leaves the pilot far enough above the ground for the chute to billow and the fall to decelerate the descent will be OK. But the act of ejection (exceeds 25 G for a few microseconds) invariably causes some damage to the spine. The amount of damage can vary. Microfractures (mild backache needing weeks of rest) are common. More severe damage can take a pilot off flying.


Does anyone recollect a couple of such incidents in the USN in 1960s ? There were two accidents with USN F 8 Crusaders. The pilots ejected form about 30 - 35000+ feet. In one case the parachute did not open. I think both the pilots survived. I had read about these incidents in Reader's Digest, a few decades ago.

K

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rahul M » 08 Mar 2012 10:49

Indaruta wrote:Is it not rather surprising that we have two mirage crashes just after the Rafale deal? I smell sabotage by vested interests.

oh dear. not this bilge again.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Sid » 08 Mar 2012 20:25

^^ Sometimes facts are not far from fiction.

But everyone are still waiting for crash investigation to complete.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Indaruta » 09 Mar 2012 00:00

Sounds like a bilge eh , just think that the probability does not add up

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Roperia » 09 Mar 2012 00:43

Check out this India today story on Mirage crash

...
Incidentally, both the crashed aircraft were assembled by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Questions have been raised in the past about the quality assurance of HAL's work.
..
Even the other aircraft that crashed last year was assembled by HAL. Defence Minister A. K. Antony had reviewed the flight safety aspects and a directive was given to other stakeholders, such as the HAL, to strictly follow IAF's instructions on maintenance of the aircraft.
...

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rupesh » 09 Mar 2012 01:46

^ saar HAl does not assemble Mirage. IIRC They do have the only facility outside France to overhaul Mirages

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Roperia » 09 Mar 2012 03:54

Rupesh wrote:^ saar HAl does not assemble Mirage. IIRC They do have the only facility outside France to overhaul Mirages


Rupesh ji, my bad! India Today reported and I believed. :-o

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Roperia » 05 Apr 2012 13:50

I hate to post this but another Mirage 2000 fighter has crashed. The pilots are reported to have ejected safely.

Why are Mirage 2000s falling from the sky?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_20453 » 05 Apr 2012 14:04

I think the fact that they are maintained by HAL have little to do with the quality of HAL. They have been functioning well for many years, 3 crashes, damn, time to phase of this fleet out as well it seems, why engage in an expensive upgrade, just order a 3 squadrons of F-35s to replace the mirage fleet. I think a bad batch of spares coming from France must have tainted these birds.

Eitherway a full scale upgrade of this fleet is not needed, just a LUSH touch up is enough. Mirage is turning out to be a shitty bird as well it seems.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_20453 » 05 Apr 2012 14:06

I fear the same will happen with the Raffy fleet, already so may unexpalined crashes in the raffy fleet, i think scrap raffy deal and go for a the safest bird in the MRCA F-18IN. Not a single crash due to technical failure.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby sum » 05 Apr 2012 14:10

^^ 3 crashes in 3 months is definitely really, really scary ( esp when there are only 50 of these around)!!

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Roperia » 05 Apr 2012 15:39

Wasn't there a CoI ordered? What was the finding of that inquiry?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby RKumar » 05 Apr 2012 16:22

Roperia wrote:I hate to post this but another Mirage 2000 fighter has crashed. The pilots are reported to have ejected safely.

Why are Mirage 2000s falling from the sky?


Page not found ... I don't think there is any crash. So lets wait until it is covered by other papers before creating BRF panic.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Roperia » 05 Apr 2012 17:40

RKumar wrote:
Roperia wrote:I hate to post this but another Mirage 2000 fighter has crashed. The pilots are reported to have ejected safely.

Why are Mirage 2000s falling from the sky?


Page not found ... I don't think there is any crash. So lets wait until it is covered by other papers before creating BRF panic.


The news was there, when I posted. I couldn't believe it myself. This is strange that they've removed the story.

If you search on the web for - "Why are Mirage 2000s falling from the sky", the first hit is

Why are Mirage 2000s falling from the sky?‎
Zee News - 4 hours ago
New Delhi: Even as the Indian Air Force is yet to decipher the reasons behind previous crashes, one more Mirage 2000 fighter jet crashed on Thursday.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby PratikDas » 06 Apr 2012 23:44

Septimus P. wrote:I fear the same will happen with the Raffy fleet, already so may unexpalined crashes in the raffy fleet, i think scrap raffy deal and go for a the safest bird in the MRCA F-18IN. Not a single crash due to technical failure.

You jinxed it.

Navy jet crashes into Virginia apartment block: reports
(AFP) – 1 hour ago
WASHINGTON — A US Navy F-18 jet crashed into a low-rise apartment building in Virginia on Friday triggering an inferno, US media reported, with emergency responders rushing to the scene.
The two crew members successfully ejected from the jet which crashed into a populated area in the eastern coastal tourist resort of Virginia Beach, CNN reported.

But their condition was unknown with one crew member reported to have been taken to Sentara Virginia Beach hospital, as firefighters were desperately trying to control the blaze.

"There were flames coming out of its engine at the back, which I just thought was afterburn or whatever... but the plane got lower and lower. I saw one pilot eject," witness Jon Swain told MSNBC.

"I understand there were two, but I only saw one. And then you know, probably five seconds later, I was at the building where it hit. It burst into flames," he said.

The plane smashed into a low-rise apartment block, he said.

"It hit it dead center. And yeah, it's pretty traumatic," Swain said. "There were a few people running from the building."

Emergency vehicles with sirens wailing rushed to the scene but there was no immediate word on casualties, as smoke was seen billowing from the two-story apartment block.

The Navy and the Virginia Beach police department could not be immediately contacted by AFP.


I sincerely hope the pilots are safe. Nevertheless, just goes to show that no aircraft is invincible to the law of probability.

Added later:
US Navy confirms both pilots safe after fighter jet crash
An F/A-18D assigned to Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 106 crashed in Virginia Beach, Va. April 6.

Initial reports indicate that at approximately 12:05 p.m., the jet crashed just after takeoff at a location just off of the base.

Both aircrew safely ejected from the aircraft.VFA-106 is based at Naval Air Station Oceana, and serves as the East Coast Fleet Replacement Squadron.

Their mission is to train Navy and Marine Corps F/A-18 Replacement Pilots and Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) to support fleet commitments.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby SagarAg » 11 Apr 2012 04:24

Grounded-Mirage-fleet-to-start-flying-by-April-end-IAF-chief-Browne
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Grounded-Mirage-fleet-to-start-flying-by-April-end-IAF-chief-Browne/articleshow/12615687.cms
NEW DELHI: After remaining grounded for over a month after two crashes in close succession, the Mirage-2000 multi-role fighters are expected to take to the skies by end-April.

Air chief marshal (ACM) N A K Browne, on the sidelines of IAF annual commanders' conference on Tuesday, said the Mirage-2000 fleet was undergoing systematic technical checks and would resume flying operations by month-end. French original equipment manufacturers Dassault Aviation and Snecma are also part of the probes into the crashes that were caused due to some engine problems.

IAF, incidentally, swears by the Mirage-2000s, which have a much better flight safety record compared to other fighters like MiGs and Jaguars. Only 10 Mirages have crashed since their induction in the mid-1980s.

India recently inked two deals worth over Rs 17,500 crore for the progressive upgrade of IAF's 51 Mirage-2000s by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile

While the first two fighters have been sent to France for the upgrade, the rest will later be retrofitted with new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under transfer of technology.

With the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters close to finalization, along with ongoing inductions and upgrades, ACM Browne said IAF was ``poised for a strategic transformation" during the conference.

"Our operations rest on three pillars - operational capability, operational infrastructure and security of these operational assets. An operational mindset must dictate all our actions and the primacy of operations in all our actions must be understood by each and every air warrior," he said.

"IAF's vision statement - `People First Mission Always' - aims at inculcating a culture where each of us pays attention to looking after the needs and requirements of people place below us. Our air warriors in the field must get full support to accomplish their assigned tasks," he added.


Does the up gradation deal also includes engine upgrade :?:
If not then IMHO I think it should considering the recent incidents and if IAF is planning to stretch Mirage-2000 fighter jets fleet till 2025. :|

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 24 May 2012 05:24

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2012 ... led-69.asp
Army chopper crashes in Siachen, pilot killed

Srinagar, May 23: A Cheetah helicopter of the Army Aviation crashed in the Siachen Glacier today leading to the death of a pilot and injuries to the co-pilot.
“A Cheetah helicopter deployed on an Air Maintenance Mission in Siachen Glacier crashed on Wednesday around 11.15 A.M. Unfortunately the pilot died and the co-pilot has been injured and evacuated to Chandigarh. An inquiry has been ordered to probe the reasons of the crash,” Lt Col JS Brar, Defence Spokesperson based in Srinagar, said.
The two officer-pilots were trying to land the chopper at the Bhim post helipad in northern glacier area when they lost control of the flying machine and it crashed 400 metres short of the helipad, an officer in the Army headquarters said.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 30 Aug 2012 13:51

Jamnagar: Five dead, three injured as two IAF helicopters collide
Jamnagar, Gujarat: Five air force personnel were killed and three others were injured after two Indian Air Force (IAF) helicopters collided mid-air near Jamnagar in Gujarat today.

The two Mi-17 helicopters crashed into each other around 12:25 pm. The accident happened over the Sarmat field firing range in Sharmath, 12 kilometres south west of Jamnagar.

The helicopters were reportedly on a training mission. Each carried a pilot, a co-pilot and two others

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Nikhil T » 30 Aug 2012 14:21

TOI homepage has the Video of the actual accident. Very sad.

RIP.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby jimmy_moh » 30 Aug 2012 14:40

very tragic incident.............. RIP

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rahul M » 30 Aug 2012 16:43

my sincere condolences.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Shameek » 30 Aug 2012 17:53

TOI report says 9 casualties and not 5. :( RIP.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby trushant » 30 Aug 2012 19:19

Nitin Gokhale - NDTV Defence Journalist - tweets "Sad to learn senior pilots from TACDE - Tactics and Air Combat Devp Establishment - also among the 9 dead today in the Jamnagar collision" :( :(

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_20453 » 30 Aug 2012 19:43

Damn, bad accident :( very sad, seems like a rotor blade collision at first, they seem to be moving fast. RIP

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby member_23360 » 30 Aug 2012 20:03

RIP :(


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