Military Flight Safety

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Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2019 22:32

Thank goodness the pilots are safe!

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 08 Aug 2019 22:44

Damn. One more bird lost. Fortunate that pilots were saved but when will these losses stop. It's becoming a routine affair to lose a bird every month

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2019 22:47

Mukesh, every accident is unique. You have to get to the root cause of every accident. You cannot get despondent over this.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby sankum » 08 Aug 2019 22:51

No need to get despondent for we have 250 Su30mki flying over 40000hrs/year. One loss per year will be the norm I.e, mathematical average. The thing is get to the root cause so that it is not repeated.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 08 Aug 2019 23:45

Pardon my anxiety.

But when we have 15 losses of fighter aircraft in last three years it of an inventory of 900 odd that's 0.5% p.a. Not a small number in peace time. While RCA maybe different but could also point to a system issue.

Sorry sir but jingo dil finds it difficult to countenance even a single loss.

Do we have a tabulation of the losses vs fighter type and cause?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2019 23:51

Mukesh, flying is inherently dangerous. And flying fighter aircraft, even more so. So are helicopters and transport aircraft. And India's unique geographical zones do not help.

You need to stop getting takleef over the number of crashes. I say again, every crash is unique. Not one is the same as the next. Everything from bird strike to poor material management to pilot error and more can occur. We are only human.

That having been said, the Indian Air Force is a professional force. Every crash is carefully studied and analyzed to inquire about the root cause. And when that root cause is identified, steps are taken to mitigate that risk.

Take a look at the Mirage 2000TI crash from 01 Feb 2019 at Yelahanka, Bangalore. The final report has still not been released. Inquiry is still ongoing. Rest assured, the root cause will be found. Although the report above states the pilots encountered engine trouble.

You can replace a plane. You cannot replace a life. That is the frustrating part. Squadron Leader Samir Abrol and Squadron Leader Siddharth Negi will forever be missed. One piece of news - Squadron Leader Abrol's wife - Ms Garima Abrol - will be joining the Air Force Academy in January 2020. She decided to join the IAF to honour her husband. Kudos to her! A true daughter of India!

Click on the link below to see picture...

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 87617?s=20 ---> Mrs Garima Abrol - wife of Sqn Ldr Samir Abrol who martyred in a Mirage 2000 fighter plane crash while test flying it at HAL Airport - to join Air Force Academy. Woman of exceptional substance and will join the Indian Air Force in Jan 2020. Not all woman are made equal, some are Armed forces Wives.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2019 00:02

And Mukesh, you may not know this. But the IAF publishes a regular flight safety magazine. Non-classified of course and distributed to all air force stations in the country. I have a couple of editions myself, going back about 20 years now. Makes for some very interesting reading.

But the point of the magazine is to imbibe a culture of safety in the IAF. That is repeated like a mantra in that magazine. And safety's father is training. Also repeated like a mantra in the magazine. Let me see if I can find them. I will scan them and upload. If someone can tell me where to upload, that would be great.

Once you read them, you will realize how important safety is taken in the Indian Air Force.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2019 00:58

Rakesh et al., There was report on Twitter by Hemant Kumar Rout that a compressor for a SU-30MKI broke up into pieces at Koraput engine factory causing worker injury.

Could be a systemic issue.
Lets keep a watch.

Will post the tweet.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby nachiket » 09 Aug 2019 01:00

I have my heart in my mouth every time I see this thread pop up. Glad to know the pilots are safe this time.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2019 01:59

Rakesh,

Here is the news about the compressor break up. The HAL technician died from burn injuries.

https://twitter.com/TheHemantRout/statu ... 80705?s=19

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby wig » 09 Aug 2019 10:09

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/suk ... 61992.html

some details on the Sukhoi crash near Tezpur yesterday evening. there are photos also in the news article
extracts
A Sukhoi fighter jet of the Indian Air Force crashed in a paddy field near Tezpur in Assam on Thursday evening, a defence spokesperson said.

Both pilots of the aircraft ejected safely and have been rescued, defence spokesperson Lt Col Harsh Wardhan Pande said.

One of the pilots suffered injury in his leg, he said.

The Su-30 MKI fighter jet was on a routine training mission when it crashed in the paddy field in the Milanpur area and burst into flames at around 8:30 pm,

Local people rushed the two pilots to the Army Base Hospital in Tezpur, he said.

Fire tenders rushed to the spot to bring the flames under control, the fire department said.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Manish_P » 09 Aug 2019 10:10

Good to hear about the pilots ejecting safely.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby naird » 09 Aug 2019 12:09

Is orange overalls a standard ? I thought we had a dark green flying overall. With orange overalls for Kirans and Hawks. Is there a distinction ?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2019 12:18

Orange is used by Rambha crews when they are flying over the sea. In the case of ejection, they can be spotted easier in orange jumpsuits versus green.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby AdityaM » 09 Aug 2019 13:30

With regards to the Sukhoi that crashed at Tezpur, the link has a video of burning wreckage

https://twitter.com/bikash63/status/115 ... 45216?s=21

But the exIAF poster claims that this is due to cyber jamming of cockpit by China. Not sure what that means. But first time I am hearing a conspiracy theory from an ex-IAF person.

Link of injured pilot using his cellphone to talk. Didn’t know that fighter pilots carry their cellphones in flight. Are they required to put them on flight mode in fighter planes as well.

https://twitter.com/soulefacts/status/1 ... 83458?s=21

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby kit » 09 Aug 2019 14:11

AdityaM wrote:With regards to the Sukhoi that crashed at Tezpur, the link has a video of burning wreckage

https://twitter.com/bikash63/status/115 ... 45216?s=21

But the exIAF poster claims that this is due to cyber jamming of cockpit by China. Not sure what that means. But first time I am hearing a conspiracy theory from an ex-IAF person.

Link of injured pilot using his cellphone to talk. Didn’t know that fighter pilots carry their cellphones in flight. Are they required to put them on flight mode in fighter planes as well.

https://twitter.com/soulefacts/status/1 ... 83458?s=21

This is second time "cyber jamming" has been on Twitter as "cause" for crash of the sukhoi. And china held responsible. !..

Is the sukhoi prone to some kind of electronic counter measure .. china like india fields a lot of sukhoi and do have in depth knowledge of the plane.. interesting conspiracy angle..

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby YashG » 09 Aug 2019 19:04

kit wrote:
AdityaM wrote:With regards to the Sukhoi that crashed at Tezpur, the link has a video of burning wreckage

https://twitter.com/bikash63/status/115 ... 45216?s=21

But the exIAF poster claims that this is due to cyber jamming of cockpit by China. Not sure what that means. But first time I am hearing a conspiracy theory from an ex-IAF person.

Link of injured pilot using his cellphone to talk. Didn’t know that fighter pilots carry their cellphones in flight. Are they required to put them on flight mode in fighter planes as well.

https://twitter.com/soulefacts/status/1 ... 83458?s=21

This is second time "cyber jamming" has been on Twitter as "cause" for crash of the sukhoi. And china held responsible. !..

Is the sukhoi prone to some kind of electronic counter measure .. china like india fields a lot of sukhoi and do have in depth knowledge of the plane.. interesting conspiracy angle..

Is it a stolen tech from us? Perhaps something US developed for russian aircraft but it hot into hands of China .

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2019 19:24

This is a great dis-service on the part of Sergeant Bikash (retd) to talk nonsense like this. I can see that his twitter handle says he is a Cyber Security expert. So I guess he needs to milk that status at every opportunity he gets.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby LakshmanPST » 09 Aug 2019 22:38

AdityaM wrote:With regards to the Sukhoi that crashed at Tezpur, the link has a video of burning wreckage

https://twitter.com/bikash63/status/115 ... 45216?s=21

But the exIAF poster claims that this is due to cyber jamming of cockpit by China. Not sure what that means. But first time I am hearing a conspiracy theory from an ex-IAF person.

Link of injured pilot using his cellphone to talk. Didn’t know that fighter pilots carry their cellphones in flight. Are they required to put them on flight mode in fighter planes as well.

https://twitter.com/soulefacts/status/1 ... 83458?s=21


The person in the second video is wearing an Orange suit...
Does IAF use Orange flight suits...???
AFAIK, they use Green suits with a darker shade...

I hope that video is fake...
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 09 Aug 2019 23:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2019 22:44

Orange is used by Rambha crews when they are flying over the sea. In the case of ejection, they can be spotted easier in orange jumpsuits versus green. See this picture below and look at the WSO (rear pilot). But just because they wear orange, that does not translate into an automatic over-the-sea mission. It could be a simple case of orange jumpsuit is what was available at that moment.

Image

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby deejay » 09 Aug 2019 23:58

ramana wrote:Rakesh et al., There was report on Twitter by Hemant Kumar Rout that a compressor for a SU-30MKI broke up into pieces at Koraput engine factory causing worker injury.

Could be a systemic issue.
Lets keep a watch.

Will post the tweet.


Don't know about this particular crash but Su 30s are proving to be very unreliable with engines. Too many engine failures.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby kit » 10 Aug 2019 00:16

deejay wrote:
ramana wrote:Rakesh et al., There was report on Twitter by Hemant Kumar Rout that a compressor for a SU-30MKI broke up into pieces at Koraput engine factory causing worker injury.

Could be a systemic issue.
Lets keep a watch.

Will post the tweet.


Don't know about this particular crash but Su 30s are proving to be very unreliable with engines. Too many engine failures.



arent the Su engines being assembled in India ?! .. case of poor quality control ?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 10 Aug 2019 03:06

LakshmanPST wrote:The person in the second video is wearing an Orange suit...
Does IAF use Orange flight suits...???
AFAIK, they use Green suits with a darker shade...

I hope that video is fake...

Rakesh wrote:Orange is used by Rambha crews when they are flying over the sea. In the case of ejection, they can be spotted easier in orange jumpsuits versus green. But just because they wear orange, that does not translate into an automatic over-the-sea mission. It could be a simple case of orange jumpsuit is what was available at that moment.

Indian Air Force

Image

Indonesian Air Force

Image

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby putnanja » 25 Sep 2019 12:04

Mig-21 crashes, but both pilots safe...

MiG-21 crashes near Gwalior, both pilots safe

NEW DELHI: A MiG-21 has crashed near the city of Gwalior. According to sources both pilots ejected safely.

The MiG-21 was a trainer aircraft of the Indian Air Force and the pilots included a Group Captain and a Squadron Leader.

The aircraft was on a routine training mission from Gwalior Airbase when it crashed near the airfield at around 10 AM. A Court of Inquiry will ascertain the cause of the accident.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Manish_P » 25 Sep 2019 14:31

Good to hear about the successful ejection by the pilots. Also no mention of any casualty or significant damage on the ground.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby tsarkar » 26 Sep 2019 11:15

Sukhois fly far beyond home base SAR capabilities and fly over seas, mountains and dense jungles. That makes the SAR arc bigger vis-a-vis other aircraft. For making it easier for SAR to locate them at extreme ranges, orange suits are worn during peacetime.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby srin » 27 Sep 2019 20:28

Indian Army Cheetah helicopter crashes in Bhutan, both pilots killed
Two pilots were killed when an Indian Army cheetah helicopter crashed in Bhutan due to foggy weather on Friday afternoon.

The Indian Military Training Team (IMTART) chopper crashed near eastern Bhutan’s Younphula Domestic Airport. IMTRAT is the training mission of the Indian Army in Bhutan.

“An Indian Army helicopter crashed at 1 pm near Yongphulla in Bhutan. The helicopter lost radio and visual contact soon after 1 pm. It was enroute from Khirmu (Arunanchal Pradesh) to Yongfulla on duty,” Indian Army spokesperson Col Aman Anand said.

The deceased pilots include a captain from the Royal Bhutan Army and a Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Aviation Corps, an Indian Army source said.

The wreckage was located after a ground search and a rescue operation was launched immediately from Yonphulla.

Search and rescue operations were also launched by the Indian Air Force and Army helicopters to locate the rest of the wreckage.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Nikhil T » 28 Sep 2019 00:32

RIP bravehearts. I wonder if the LUH (instead the Cheetah) would have prevented this accident or if the machine didn't matter.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Bala Vignesh » 28 Sep 2019 00:52

It was a low vis situation, unless you TCAS or a radar altimeter with an alarm function, I don't think it would have helped.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2019 01:55

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/11 ... 0469033985 ---> Lieutenant Colonel Rajneesh Parmar is the Indian Army pilot killed in today’s Cheetah helicopter crash in Bhutan. Was on a training flight with a young Royal Bhutan Army pilot Captain Kalzang Wangdi. Terrible tragedy. Condolences to the families.

Image

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1177543440403505153 ---> The crash was at Yonphulla, Bhutan after take off from Khirmu in Arunachal Pradesh. The wreckage has been located. Investigations are on.

Image

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Manish_P » 28 Sep 2019 13:02

Om Shanti

May god give strength to their families to bear their terrible loss

:(

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby fanne » 28 Sep 2019 18:31

For records from twitter -
https://twitter.com/Wolfpack071/status/ ... 9739624448

from 2012 to 2019 these are the losses (7 years almost)-
Mig 21 -12 (avg 1-2 per year)
Mig 27 -7 (avg 1 a year)
Mig 29 - 2 (2 in 2013, avg 0 per year almost)
SU30MKI- 7 (1 a year average)
Jags- 10 (avg 2 a year)
M2000- 3 (2 in 2012, avg 0 per year almost)

Avg are not pure mathematical averages.

If you look above, Mig 29/Mirage 2000 is perhaps the safest planes. Perhaps it is because of Mig 29 double engine and superb FBW of M2K. But I suspect, what kind of mission training is done. Both planes practice 'safer' profile (Mig 29 air dominance and M2K even if trying ground bombing, perhaps smart weapon from higher altitude).

Jags come out to be worst in spite of two engine. I suspect maybe QA issues from HAL and the nap of the earth flying....1 mistake and no time to recover.

Mig 21/Mig 27 - Obsolete technology, training profile also hard (Mig 27 will also be practicing nap of the earth flying and Mig 21 will be all over the place, we have been using it as a true multi role aircraft)

The most worrisome is SU30MKI - two engine, contemporary tech, still almost loosing 1 a year (fist decade and some, there were 0 losses). Could the Chinese be doing something (hacking) in the Norther border. They must be pulling the most hours/sorties in IAF

Of course on many of them, you could remember many unfortunate events - Jags flying into each other in cloud when practicing for going to Alaska. Or Mig 29 similarly crashing against a peak in the Himalayas, or the pilot unknowingly turning off the FBW in SU30MKI.
rgds

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby SaiK » 29 Sep 2019 14:08

Posting here as there is no general flight safety dhaaga.


Can a pilot press a wrong button in the panel causing the plane to crash?

https://www.opindia.com/2019/09/can-a-p ... crash/amp/

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby SaiK » 05 Oct 2019 06:55

Downing chopper a ‘big mistake’, 6 to face action: IAF chief

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 449298.cms

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby wig » 24 Oct 2019 15:41

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 738549.cms

Army chopper with Northern Army commander on board crash-lands in J-K
An Indian Army helicopter with the Northern Army commander, Lt Gen Ranbir Singh, on board crash-landed in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district on Thursday. There were no casualties. All seven members on-board are safe.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Bala Vignesh » 24 Oct 2019 18:11

wig wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/army-chopper-with-northern-army-commander-on-board-crash-lands-in-j-k/articleshow/71738549.cms

Army chopper with Northern Army commander on board crash-lands in J-K
An Indian Army helicopter with the Northern Army commander, Lt Gen Ranbir Singh, on board crash-landed in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district on Thursday. There were no casualties. All seven members on-board are safe.

a forced landing, indeed!! the bird is completely damaged!!
https://mobile.twitter.com/manupubby/status/1187339844248363008?s=08

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby MeshaVishwas » 24 Oct 2019 18:30

Brilliant job by the AAC Pilots. A word of thanks to HAL too for such a great design, you can see the seats are intact and the energy dissipation upon impact was just as intended,shielding all the occupants.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Manish_P » 24 Oct 2019 18:33

Good to hear that they are safe.

Hope the injuries are not very bad.

Very very hard landing from the photos. Similar to improvements in automobiles safety (materials and design), ALH would have improvements over the previous gen hepters.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby MeshaVishwas » 24 Oct 2019 21:16

The ALH was designed with high crash worthiness - max 'g' forces first absorbed by the skids, then the fuselage and finally the crash worthy seats. Seats, if I remember were the pilots.' Too early to say but maybe that saved them in the seemingly vertcal impact here.

https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... 36193?s=19
From a distinguished Heli Pilot and an AVM.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shaun » 24 Oct 2019 21:22

The initial news was ,the hepter got entangled in overhead wires


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