Military Flight Safety

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby abhishek_sharma » 24 Sep 2010 09:46

Mig 27 crashes 40 km from Kalaikunda Airbase in WB (Pilot safe): NDTV


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Sep 2010 12:33

Pray the Pilot does not have any injuries and no people on the ground were hurt

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Dmurphy » 24 Sep 2010 12:50

WTH? Isn't that the thrid time a Mig27's gone down this year? And thats despite grounding the aircraft for a good amount a time so the flying hours can't be too high.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Surya » 24 Sep 2010 14:22

And thats despite grounding the aircraft for a good amount a time so the flying hours can't be too high.



Where did you come up with this ?? source??

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Dmurphy » 24 Sep 2010 15:24

Surya wrote:
And thats despite grounding the aircraft for a good amount a time so the flying hours can't be too high.

Where did you come up with this ?? source??

Article dated 31st march says "NEW DELHI: Over 100 MiG-27s are yet to take to the skies after being grounded following the crash of one of these `swing-wing' strike fighters in West Bengal on February 16."

It also says "Incidentally, the over 100 MiG-27MLs in the IAF fleet were hardly flown in 2005-2006 after it was found that their R-29 engines were causing a large number of accidents."

Article dated 18th June says "MiG-27 fighters, which were grounded in February following a crash, have resumed operational flights following clearance by the Indian Air Force." And does this article, again dated 18th June. Feb 16th to June 18th - about 4 months - thats a long time!!

Ofcourse, all that is before this happened next month.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Pratyush » 24 Sep 2010 17:38

The aircraft is a vital part of the IAF strike force. Lets hope that the bugs if any are resolved ASAP, and the aircraft is not grounded again. Therby effecting the training of the aircrew.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Surya » 24 Sep 2010 18:04

Dmurphy
I think I misinterpreted you sentence

for a good amount a time so the flying hours can't be too high


as they were ground to save on flying hours

my bad - sorry

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 25 Sep 2010 06:49

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100925/j ... 980314.jsp

“Some women who were washing utensils at a nearby pond cried out that a plane was on fire and was about to crash,”


Thousands of people from nearby villages, alerted by the MiG’s roar and the flames from its tail, had calculated it would crash near Duria and begun running towards the village.


So the aircraft caught fire before crashing..

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Jagan » 27 Sep 2010 08:26

Fellas

The IAF's Flight Safety Magazine is now available for download on the IAF site

http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_page.php?pg_id=265

Saw this only today for some reason.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 03 Oct 2010 06:29

Cross post
Jagan wrote:http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/TKdpn ... -Story.jpg

A story from flight safety - about an engine fire in an IAF Su-30MKI - might have been from 31 Sqn.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby kancha » 06 Oct 2010 19:45

Jagan, pl check your mail

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby JimmyJ » 08 Nov 2010 17:53

IAF chopper crashes in Ladakh

Srinagar: An Air Force helicopter on a routine flight to Siachen Glacier on Monday crashed in Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir, injuring both the pilots on board.

The Cheetah helicopter crashed at 11.00 am while on a flight to the icy heights of Siachen, defence sources said.



The pilots were injured in the crash and immediately evacuated to Leh for treatment, they said.

Though the condition of both the pilots, whose identity was not disclosed, was reported to be stable, they have been referred to Delhi for treatment, the sources added.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby JimmyJ » 10 Nov 2010 15:09

IAF MiG-27 crashes, pilot safe

An Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-27 fighter crashed in Rajasthan on Wednesday but the pilot ejected to safety, an official said.

"The aircraft was on a routine training mission. It crashed near Jodhpur. The pilot ejected to safety," an IAF spokesman here said.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 17 Nov 2010 09:31

Cross post

The figure 60 is suspect.
Looking at the information on Jagan's page and various news items the total crashes for 2007, 2008 and 2009 is 30.

2007: 9
2008: 10
2009: 11

Unless we have had 30 accidents in 2010 (which we have not) the figure is either WRONG or it includes data on accidents of other aircraft or flying objects - like in the USA a class A accident accounts for deaths or accidents that cost more than USD 2 million.

shukla wrote:Ministry of Defence Comments
Crashes of Aircraft and Helicopters

A total of 60 aircrafts including MiG 21 and helicopters of the Defence forces have crashed during the last three years from financial year 2007-2008 till 8th November, 2010 in the current financial year. Forty three service personnel and five civilians were killed in these accidents. Twenty civilians were injured.

Compensation as per extant Government order is paid for the service personnel killed and civilians killed/injured. Each crash is investigated through a Court of Inquiry and remedial measures are undertaken accordingly to check their recurrence in future. Phasing out of a particular aircraft and its replacement is decided based on operational requirements of the services, which is reviewed from time to time.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Ravindra Kumar Pandey & others in Lok Sabha today.

SRS for Post-Crash Recovery

A Request For Information (RFI) was issued in September 2010 for Combat Search & Rescue Systems (SRS). The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to procure personal Rescue Beacons for its Fighter, Transport and Helicopter fleet and Emergency Location Transmitters (ELT) as well as Air borne Locator Interrogators for its Transport and Helicopters fleet. The estimated cost is Rs.120 crores.

During the past one year, there have been two fatal accidents and the bodies of three pilots who lost their lives in these accidents were recovered. Since these accidents took place near IAF airfields under positive control of Air Traffic Control (ATC), the present SRS was not required to be used to recover the bodies/debris.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Milind Deora in Lok Sabha today.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby bodhi » 19 Nov 2010 14:05

7 killed in Air Force chopper crash in Tawang: Just in: At least seven people were killed as an Air Force chopper with two pilots and 10 jawans on board crashed in Tawang, Arunachal Pradesh. The cause of the crash is yet to be ascertained, but the Air Force has already set up an inquiry committee to investigate the reason.The chopper was headed for Guwahati.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2010 16:48

Link 1
The Mi-17 Russian-made helicopter was travelling from Tawang in the state of Arunachal Pradesh to Guwahati in Assam with 11 on board when it crashed in bad weather, the official told AFP, asking not to be named.

"Preliminary reports indicate that it could be due to poor visibility," he said, adding that there was fog and snow in the area of the crash.


Link 2
IAF sources said the weather was clear it was unlikely that the chopper could have encountered any obstruction.


Link 3
crashed due to dense fog in Arunachal Pradesh Friday, a defence official said.


Link 4
Though the exact cause being the crash is yet to be ascertained, bad weather and dense fog is suspected to be probable cause.


Link 5
The MI-17 chopper of IAF was on its way to Guwahati from Tawang air base when it encountered bad weather and dense fog.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Dmurphy » 19 Nov 2010 17:39

Per this link, there was an "explosion"!

ITANAGAR/SHILLONG: All 12 armed forces personnel onboard an IAF MI-17 helicopter were today killed when it crashed after an explosion minutes after take-off from Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh. The 12 people, including 11 IAF officials - two of them pilots - and one Army officer, on board were killed when the helicopter crashed at Bomdir area bordering China, Defence PRO Col Rajesh Kalia in Itanagar said.

All the bodies have been recovered by the Army and police. The bodies remain to be identified.

The explosion onboard occurred minutes after the helicopter took-off from the Tawang helipad at around 12 noon. The helicopter was en route to Guwahati.
A commission of inquiry has been ordered. IAF sources said the weather was clear it was unlikely that the chopper could have encountered any obstruction.

Arunachal Pradesh chief minister Dorjee Khandu has condoled the deaths.

Shiv, it HAS to be because of the explosion and not bas weather, as it was just minutes after it took off and IAF personnel themselves must have seen it from ground and confirmed it. NOw what was that "explosion"?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shukla » 19 Nov 2010 17:51

Image

The Mi-17 Russian-made helicopter went down in bad weather shortly after taking off from Tawang in the state of Arunachal Pradesh on its way Guwahati in Assam, defence spokesman R. Kalia told AFP by telephone. "The helicopter with 12 people on board crashed into a hill with all the dead bodies recovered," Kalia said, adding that 11 of the victims were air force personnel and one was from the army.

Most of them were posted on the heavily militarised border between India and the Chinese region of Tibet. "We don?t know the circumstances leading to the crash and only experts will be able to give us an idea of what went wrong," Kalia said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... d28878a.61

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shukla » 19 Nov 2010 17:56

IAF MI-17 Crashes in Tawang Sector
MOD Press release

In a tragic air crash, an IAF Mi-17 helicopter with 12 service personnel onboard, crashed near Bomdir in Tawang today at around 1205 hrs, killing all personnel on board. The helicopter was airborne from Tawang for Guwahati. The deceased include three crew members, eight IAF personnel below officer rank and an Army Lieutenant Colonel.

Defence Minister Shri AK Antony has expressed profound grief at the loss of lives of defence personnel in the crash. The IAF has also constituted a Court of Inquiry to look into the cause of the accident.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby VikB » 19 Nov 2010 18:26

^^^ I was at Tawang last year and had photographed same/similar chopper up close. Truely an extremely saddening news. RIP brave souls :(

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2010 18:51

Dmurphy wrote:Per this link, there was an "explosion"!

Every crash report is associated with an explosion. I have never seen a crash report where witnesses have not reported an explosion. The word "crash" denotes a bang. Wait for the inquiry.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby VikramS » 19 Nov 2010 21:27

There is something fishy. The initial reports seem to suggest that the crash was soon after take-off, the weather was not bad, there was no obstruction. Then all the contradictory reports increasing the possibility of weather/other issues.

I am wondering if there is some outside interference going on, and the possibility of SAM attacks. Remember that Chinese web-site claiming that the AN-32 downing was a PLA SAM? I know that one was bogus (it claimed it was a Phalcon) but the Chinese would not allow a site like that to be up unless they had a purpose.

From what we know of China, the PLA has a huge dominating influence, and their is an internal power struggle going on all the time. Is permission to prick India in AP the new sop to the PLA? There are major macro currents at play on the economic front, and invariably they get resolved in wars.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2010 22:06

VikramS wrote:I am wondering if there is some outside interference going on, and the possibility of SAM attacks. Remember that Chinese web-site claiming that the AN-32 downing was a PLA SAM? I know that one was bogus (it claimed it was a Phalcon) but the Chinese would not allow a site like that to be up unless they had a purpose.


How about waiting for more reports? Most reports say bad weather. Only one says fie weather, Have you checked a local weather forecast of the area today?

Indian soldiers working in a harsh environment have just been killed. Their families will be grieving and will also want to know what happened apart from the families of nearly two million servicemen. It is possible that definite information may not even have reached the extended family of some of the dead - especially if some of the men were from remote villages in interior India

If a Chinese missile brought this helicopter down it will come out once the wreck is analysed. Nobody knows yet. It is too early. It would be an act of war of course. Tawang is 16 km from the border and the helo was at 3600 meters in an area that has mountains that are even higher.

Give them time. Please be patient. Please do not speculate. There are more than 120 reports via my uncle Googal. Please read as many as you can. There is some variation ion the reports.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Pratik_S » 20 Nov 2010 09:40

This is the 17th crash suffered by the Indian military this year and by far the most costly. R.I.P brave defenders. This probably shows the level of obsolesce the Indian military aviation is suffering from.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby wig » 20 Nov 2010 09:44

this article in the tribune mentions, there seems to have been a blast on board and.'prima facie the problem has been identified with the rotors of the chopper'
Tezpur-based defence spokesman Col Rajesh Kalia said the explosion on board the chopper occurred minutes after its take-off from the Tawang helipad at around 12 noon.

Eyewitnesses heard a loud sound in the sky and saw the chopper catching fire.

Prima facie the problem has been identified with the rotors of the chopper.

the take-off load of 12 persons on board was within the laid down parameters, said sources, who said that an MI-17 can take upto 24-28 passengers when taking off from the plains. Official source said the weather in Tawang was okay and it was unlikely that the ill-fated chopper could have encountered any obstruction.
At Tawang, the military helipad does not have an air traffic controller

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101120/main5.htm

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Dmurphy » 20 Nov 2010 10:30

shiv wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:Per this link, there was an "explosion"!

Every crash report is associated with an explosion. I have never seen a crash report where witnesses have not reported an explosion. The word "crash" denotes a bang. Wait for the inquiry.

Shiv, this "bang" clearly occured before the crash, per the eyewitnesses! :x

VikramS, if I've got the site of crash right, its just 50 Ks from the Chinese border (Link)

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rahul M » 20 Nov 2010 10:38

Pratik_S wrote:This is the 17th crash suffered by the Indian military this year and by far the most costly. R.I.P brave defenders. This probably shows the level of obsolesce the Indian military aviation is suffering from.

source ? I don't get 17.

nishant UAV 29 Jan
mig-27 17 Feb(*1)
mig-21 19 Feb
IN kiran 03 Mar(*2+?)
IN chetak 02 Jun(*1)
mig-21 15 Jun
mig-27 24 Jul(*0+1)
IA cheetah 18 Aug(*3)
chetak 11 Sep(*3)
mig-27 24 Sep
cheetah 08 NOv
mig-27 10 Nov
mi-17 19 Nov(*12 ?)

in brackets are fatalities. *X+Y
where X- military personnel
Y- civilian deaths.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 20 Nov 2010 21:26

Dmurphy wrote:Shiv, this "bang" clearly occured before the crash, per the eyewitnesses!


These are third hand or fourth hand reports. Why not also give credence to what Air Force sources say "We don't want to speculate". If you want to reach conclusions - that is your prerogative. I am only requesting that you don't do that.

I saw a ToI report that said the following:"The commonest causes of accidents are Pilot Error and technical issues. That means poor training and poor maintenance". I will not bother linking the report here. This is a particularly hurtful report that is so ignorant of the problems faced by pilots in accidents later reported as pilot error that it does not even deserve mention. "The dead man was a poorly trained pilot. He was a bum and the Air Force is full of bums" But this is the standard level of incompetence in our nation.

We are a nation of unscientific speculators who will not wait for or accept what the experts say. There no law against that - but it is wrong to do that. I request that you desist. But if you insist, go right ahead. I will merely repeat my request. The forum is as open to you as it is to me. In my view we have no business being critical of the media when a huge proportion of forum members are as uninformed and as unwilling to be informed as the media. Aren't we the people who had a good laugh at how the Benazir assassination investigation was handled. We are doing the equivalent of "Sun roof lever" explanation even before the relatives have been informed (The dead Lt Colonel who was going home urgently as someone was ill), bodies handed to relatives and funerals conducted. And the wreckage has not yet been picked up.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Surya » 20 Nov 2010 23:14

Guys technically illiterate people always say there was an explosion.

Add to that the limited ability to express details in the local language

The same used to happen during the Mig 21 days and when I went through with my friends over the details it was never so.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rahul M » 20 Nov 2010 23:18

quite so. in every bangla news outlet an aircraft crash is reported as "...ভেঙে পড়ে" literally 'broke and fell'. people get the impression that the craft disintegrated in mid-flight.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 21 Nov 2010 06:04

Surya wrote:Guys technically illiterate people always say there was an explosion.

Add to that the limited ability to express details in the local language

The same used to happen during the Mig 21 days and when I went through with my friends over the details it was never so.


The words "technically iliterate" are particularly apt. Both the witness and the news reporter tend to be technically illiterate. With the Burkha Dutts, Vir Sanghvis and Sardesais sitting in Dilli who do you think would be there in a far off place like Walong or Along to give an accurate second by second recount of events?

Even if there was an explosion it does not mean that it was a SAM, AAM or sabotage. It could be but reaching that conclusion beforehand, in the absence of any investigation is an indicator of technical illiteracy.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby prithvi » 21 Nov 2010 15:05

have you checked recent tweet by Brahma Chellaney...."CRASH PUZZLE: Xinhua's Mandarin report on 12 military deaths in Arunachal says the Mi-17 crashed in what has "always been Chinese territory"

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Jagan » 21 Nov 2010 20:23

From SumanSharma's blog

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/T ... safety.jpg

What is revealing in the above is that the An-32 crash in Arunachal has been pinned on pilot error - and the AOC Jorhat took the blame for it (For not supervising the currency of the pilot).

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby rohitvats » 21 Nov 2010 20:39

^^^As Shiv sometime back posted...Pilot Error is the where the buck literally stops. It is the culmination of a lot of things which could have gone prior to the flight itself.

The way Rajat Pandit and Suman Sharma paint the picture is as if Pilot Error is due to deficiency in training....what BS!!! The pilot of AN-32 was a Wing Co, for God's sake! He would have met his maker a very long time back if he has been trained poorly. What these idiots don't understand that flying is inherently risky business...and there can be situations when the seasoned pilots can also get overwhelmed and actually make a mistake or error of judgement. But to call this a training issue and as if 'currency' renewal' could have some how prevented the crash is humbug.....

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Jagan » 21 Nov 2010 20:55

rohit, I disagree. the question was not about the Wing Commander was properly trained. but whether he got back upto speed after he returned from a long hiatus from flying. It is SOP that anyone coming back from a long leave doesnt directly jump into the cockpit and starts flying missions. there will be a period of re-familiariation before you are sent off on your own. I would be very surprised to learn if a pilot who comes back from 60 days gap in flying will be sent to captain a passenger flight in any of the civilian airlines without a proper checkride or two. no reason why it shouldnt be the same in the AF. I dont find fault in the point that there is a procedural lapse on behalf of those in the chain of command, and it could have been a contributing factor to the accident.

What was not reported correctly was that everyone knew that primary cause of the the Sukhoi-30 accident was pilot error. So there is no question of it being "Randomly" picked by Anthony to be evaluated.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Aditya G » 22 Nov 2010 04:32

Interesting story of a Mi-8 that lost a tyre in the air - the crew fitted a spare as the helicopter hovered 1/2 m above the ground! :eek:

http://indianairforce.nic.in/fsmagazines/Jan10.pdf

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby rohitvats » 22 Nov 2010 15:17

Jagan wrote:rohit, I disagree. the question was not about the Wing Commander was properly trained. but whether he got back upto speed after he returned from a long hiatus from flying. It is SOP that anyone coming back from a long leave doesnt directly jump into the cockpit and starts flying missions. there will be a period of re-familiariation before you are sent off on your own. I would be very surprised to learn if a pilot who comes back from 60 days gap in flying will be sent to captain a passenger flight in any of the civilian airlines without a proper checkride or two. no reason why it shouldnt be the same in the AF. I dont find fault in the point that there is a procedural lapse on behalf of those in the chain of command, and it could have been a contributing factor to the accident.

What was not reported correctly was that everyone knew that primary cause of the the Sukhoi-30 accident was pilot error. So there is no question of it being "Randomly" picked by Anthony to be evaluated.


Jagan, I disagree with the above assertion. Having said that, I do not claim familiarity with procedures for getting pilots/captains upto speed post leave*. But I have seen Air Maintenance operations up-close on NE.

The news item talks only about the leave part and not the duration of the leave. We do not know whether it was one of the long annual leave or short 7-10 day stint. Also, where did the 60 day gap in flying come from? From what I was able to infer, the "status" of the pilot - in terms of his ability to continue operations in the said environment is reviewed every fixed time frame - 60days in this case. IMO, this is something like the Category the pilots receive - and which are tested in a periodic manner.

So, to derive the conclusion that the accident occured because of lack of review is incorrect, IMO. THe report talks about lack of situational awareness as cause of the accident.

Moderators - I came across a very informative article which is based on detailed study of causes of air crashes in IAF. I recommend that the same be appended in the beginning of this threat for general information. The paper throws up very interesting information and is a must read for any aviation enthusiast.

Please see the link:http:http://medind.nic.in/iab/t03/i1/iabt03i1p30.pdf

I suggest it be saved/stored on BRF as link may not work in future.

Some excerpts:

Human error causes more than half of all aviation accidents. Records of all the fatal human error accidents available at Dte. of Flight Safety from 01 Apr 1996 to 01 May 2001 were analysed for various factors such as age of the Pilot, total flying hours, type of aircraft and rating of the Pilot. Human factors were analysed in detail for factors such as inexperience, breach of discipline and lack of situational awareness. Pilot error accounted for 68% of all fatal aircraft accidents followed by Technical defect 22.9%. Mig–21 is the commonest aircraft involved and accounted for 50% of all accidents. Nearly 50% of the aircrew were aged between 24 – 26 years with mean service flying hours of 900 hours and 200 hours on type
with Ops/White instrument rating. Among the human factors incorrect decision accounted for 48.6% of all accidents followed by lack of situational awareness (40%) and Poor Skills (36%). Weather accounts for 10% of all fatal aircraft accidents.


*
Last leave period : Period of absence from flying was noted (in terms of months) since aircrew availed his last leave.


It is clearly seen from above that most frequently involved aircrew in terms of category are Ops White / D - White.

Last leave in correlation with the accident showed that 24 aircrew had taken leave beyond six months and 7 had availed leave less than six months. Break in Flying Analysis showed that only 3 out of 32 had break in flying.

Past history of accident only one Aircrew had a past history of ejection. Flying condition total number of aircrew on VMC and IMC was 26 and 6 respectively.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby SandeepS » 27 Nov 2010 01:48

Jagan, I was going through the MIG-25 thread on BRF homepage and also the material on 'Warbirds of India' site and I noticed that neither sites mention a MiG-25R that crashed near Station Arty Officers' Mess, Jodhpur in summer of 1985 or 86. The crash site was approximately 2-3kms in a straight line (almost) from the southern end of Jodhpur runway.

Apparently from what I recollect of the CoI the crash was blamed on the ATC and the different procedures followed by MiG25R during landing. As MiG25R had an extremely long and complex descent profile, once they were cleared for landing they were given exclusive and priority landing slot and were not required to keep in touch with ATC. In this case, the ATC tried to squeeze in a flight of MiG-21s to land at the last minute before the MiG25R that he had already cleared. The last MiG-21 did not notice the MiG25R as it was in its massive blind-spot while banking to line-up but the MiG-25R's pilot did notice and tried to pull-up. Apparently, MiG-25R had this issue that once they were committed into their really long descent profile, then any sudden changes were not recommended. The MiG-25R pilot then noticed that he was heading straight towards unit lines of 4 Mech and chose to stick with his doomed aircraft till it was clear. He bailed out too late and lost his lower limbs and died on the way to MH.

For the sake of clarity I think I should mention that I cannot claim authenticity for the details of CoI as it was told to me by a senior AF officer soon after the crash. However, I witnessed the burning crash site.

I will again review the exhaustive list of crashes on Warbirds of India site to see if this crash has been registered under some different category but at the moment Accidents List for IAF page on that site seems broken as it is returning 0 records.

Jagan
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Jagan » 27 Nov 2010 04:12

Sandeep

You may well be right. I am sure I missed out atleast one MiG-25 accident in which the pilot died after ejecion - and I think the incident you mentioned is probably the one that I missed.

(The Warbirds db seems to have gone on teh blink for some reason. I will try and fix it .)


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