Military Flight Safety

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Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Shameek wrote:Wing Commander Harshit Sinha passed away in this crash. :( Pray for strength to his family to deal with this massive loss.
+1. For them the loss is permanent, God give them strength to go on without him.
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

New facts about CDS Rawat’s chopper crash
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2021/colum ... crash.html

Even as a tri-service inquiry pieces together the tragedy’s missing links, some accounts suggest that there was a black hole in communication

Returning to Wellington’s Defence Services Staff College, still reeling from the CDS Gen Bipin Rawat tragedy, was a memorable experience in spite of the grave setback. Wellington provides a textbook lesson for keeping the station/cantonment clean and tidy. The picture-perfect Madras Regimental Centre happily shares space with Staff Colleges’ myriad owls. The Staff College prepares mid-level leaders for higher responsibility in Staff and Command and guest lectures are inspirational, especially when the speaker is India’s first CDS.

The Wellington Gymkhana Club, a relic of 1873, which divides Coonoor and Wellington, houses a helipad on a cricket pitch on its golf course which has not seen any helicopter landing since that fateful day. The talking point here amongst the service community is the life-shattering helicopter crash. Our taxi driver, Mahendran, who has worked in the Staff College for 35 years, initiated the conversation knowing I was a retired General visiting Wellington. He showed us the gorge-like valley overlooked by towering mountains and slowed down the car to indicate Kattery village where the helicopter went down. “The pilot was flying low; he should have flown further up the valley and then taken a right turn,” he offered an expert comment. Two Three Star and three Two Star officers who are conducting the tri-service inquiry come up frequently to Wellington, drive to Kattery putting pieces together that are more complex than a jigsaw puzzle. Their findings are to be tabled in the next session of Parliament when some corrections to security protocol are expected. This piece has some new facts.

December 8 is a black day for Staff College. Classes were terminated early so that students could return for the CDS lecture at 3.30 pm. The morning weather in Wellington was cloudy, setting some Directing Staff to speculate that the CDS would likely be forced to travel by road, delaying the lecture. Back at Sulur airbase, weather forecast indicated mist and clouds, not fit for flying. At 11.35 am, the Embraer carrying the CDS and party from Delhi landed at Sulur. But the helicopter manifest had to be changed: One person was dropped to accommodate Mrs Madhulika Rawat, who was never a passionate traveller. It was mentioned that after his DSSC assignment, Rawat was to travel to Andaman & Nicobar Tri-Service Command the next day. By 11.30 am, clearance for flying was given by Sulur/Coimbatore ATC and the Mi17 MV took off with one change in its passenger manifest. The aircraft was to land at Wellington at 12.20 pm and when it did not, around 12.30 pm, signs of concern were visible. It seems no one — neither Sulur nor Coimbatore ATC and not even Wellington helipad was in communication with the helicopter.

Wing Commander PS Chauhan was a Master Green pilot who had the highest flying grade with 3,000 hours of flying in different terrain under his belt. Inside the helicopter, Chauhan, his co-pilot and two Wing Airmen who are lookouts on both flanks were in full control till the chopper hit a low cloud draped in mist. Around 12.15 pm, it struck a tree branch near Kattery and went down. The helicopter was so badly burnt that the hardest parts of the aircraft could not be retrieved. Four bodies were flung out while others went down the slope. Gp Capt Varun Singh, who was the liaison officer with the CDS sent from Staff College, waved with his cell phone, saying: “Call my wife.” He had tried speaking to her from Sulur but could not connect. The rest of the story has become folklore. A person, who says he was privy to the black box recording, said: “There was no distress call or any May Day call before the final five seconds.” He added: “There was a black hole in communication, with no communication with anyone.” That day, the first-ever crash of a helicopter attempting a landing at Wellington was recorded.

Earlier in September, as President Kovind was to address the Staff College, the Wellington Gymkhana Club was vacated for four days, in case he landed at their helipad. In fact, his three helicopters landed in Udagamandalam (Ooty), from where he drove down to Wellington. Presidents and Prime Ministers figure in the highest security grade that mandates a scout and two additional helicopters. It is not clear why WGC vacated its occupants when only one helicopter can land at Wellington which precludes a presidential landing.

In September, both Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and Army chief, Gen Naravane, were unable to fly and had to go by road to Staff College. The same month, Lt Gen Raj Shukla managed to sneak into Wellington as his helicopter pilot found a providential opening in the clouds to land at Wellington. Many tri-service commanders have made similar landings in the last 60 years. It’s heartening that the CDS was given a fantastic, spontaneous and unprecedented farewell by the nation and Government. If only he was in a higher security protocol, things might have been different. Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, who gave India its first and only military victory in a thousand years, died unsung in Wellington Military Hospital. But Rawat’s story has taken a different course.

(The writer, a retired Major General, was Commander, IPKF South, Sri Lanka, and founder member of the Defence Planning Staff, currently the Integrated Defence Staff. The views expressed are personal.)
So level of inquiry is all-encompassing.
Weather was a major factor.
Last edited by ramana on 30 Dec 2021 10:31, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by Ramana
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:New facts about CDS Rawat’s chopper crash
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2021/colum ... crash.html
Sirjee, you almost gave me a heart attack :) I saw your post and I thought to myself, not again!

Please put the title of the news article. I have edited your post.
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Sorry Rakesh ji, posted that on the fly. Thank you for the edit.
Hari Nair
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Hari Nair »

Rakesh wrote:
Cyrano wrote:New facts about CDS Rawat’s chopper crash
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2021/colum ... crash.html
Sirjee, you almost gave me a heart attack :) I saw your post and I thought to myself, not again!...
May I request - please save everybody from "heart attacks" or whatever...
The cause of the V5 crash may perhaps, appear to hint towards CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain).
The rest is conjecture - on a very galactic level!!
On that note whereas I respect the views of veterans, they may perhaps need to desist before proposing outlandlish theories.
Cyrano wrote:New facts about CDS Rawat’s chopper crash
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2021/colum ... crash.html

Even as a tri-service inquiry pieces together the tragedy’s missing links, some accounts suggest that there was a black hole in communication

Returning to Wellington’s Defence Services Staff College, still reeling from ...

...(The writer, a retired Major General, was Commander, IPKF South, Sri Lanka, and founder member of the Defence Planning Staff, currently the Integrated Defence Staff. The views expressed are personal.)
...So level of inquiry is all-encompassing....
Weather was a major factor.
Whereas I repsect a senior veteran General's views, it's perhaps prudent to refrain from commenting on this air accident in such detail, at this point.
Obviously weather was a major factor. I have already pointed this out in my post many moons ago...
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Agree environment was a major factor as you pointed out.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Barath »

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 084094.ece

Disorientation of crew in poor weather likely cause of crash that killed Gen Rawat and 13 others.

The findings of the inquiry have been sent for legal review after which they would be submitted to the Government

Honestly, this - controlled flight into terrain - was always the most likely situation despite the conspiracy theories.

People don't like to say that IAF pilots or crew, especially dead ones, make mistakes. The inquiry allows for investigation and is able to couch it in terms of systematic factors - there is usually a huge amount of context and contributory factors behind even a simple pilot/crew action or inaction, which inquiries can bring out. eg What was the weather conditions and rules at different points, why was the decision made to fly or to land, what could have been alternate decision or when it should have been made, what contributes to spatial disorientation and any training lacunae either systematic or in case of individual crew history etc. Any ILS instrument/system issues on ground or in air.

It will take 10-15 days for legal vetting since the inquiry has now been completed ; and then more info may probably come out
Last edited by Barath on 01 Jan 2022 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
Barath
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Barath »

putnanja wrote:. Civilian aircraft have terrain avoidance system . Do helicopters have something like that ? Would they detect things like trees/boulders in the path? Would it be possible to use that for normal/VIP flights (outside of training/war times)?
https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/iaf ... 39737.html
https://onboard.thalesgroup.com/htaws-s ... licopters/

Specific case of Mi17v5 or this chopper unknown, - you can make your own guess. General case, yes, there is HTAWS And yes, some western countries have made it mandatory for helicopter EMS and offshore operations.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ldev »

Bipin Rawat chopper crash: No technical snag or sabotage, bad weather identified as 'prime reason'
The chopper Gen Bipin Rawat was flying in on December 8 crashed because of bad weather that led to a situation called Controlled Flight into Terrain, the probe into the mishap has concluded, ruling out sabotage or technical glitch as reasons.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

So the environment is a contributor to the crash.
I hope it talks to the systemic issues in protocols and procedures that led to the CDS being in the helicopter.
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Prem Kumar wrote:Breaking News!


3) Though the COI has concluded that Gen Rawat's heli-crash was a pilot-error (Controlled Descent into Terrain), I just can't help shake the suspicion - is it a coincidence that he should perish a few weeks after such an important decision was made, which would have pissed off import lobbies in India & arms majors worldwide?
Care to elaborate sir or are you saying that either;
1) the pilot purposely crashed or
2) the IAF engineers who certified the heptr as airworthy overlooked something on purpose or inadvertently or
3) the heptr was shot down

thank you
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/14 ... 69248?s=20 ---> JUST IN: Indian Air Force statement on the preliminary findings of the Dec 8 helicopter tragedy probe. Says it was ‘spatial disorientation of the pilot’ due to sudden change in weather/clouds.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Its the recommendations that will be helpful in preventing such tragedies.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Lisa »

From memory, sort of related, a similar crash occurred in the UK in 1994. Virtually identical scenario,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scot ... nook_crash
srin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by srin »

Indian Army helicopter crashes in Kashmir’s Gurez
An Indian Army Cheetah helicopter crashed in the Gurez Sector of Kashmir on Friday. The chopper was on its way to pick up sick BSF personnel, news agency PTI reported quoting officials.

Rescue operations are underway with teams being despatched on foot while air reconnaissance teams are looking for survivors.
The cause of the crash and casualties were not known immediately. According to an official, the chopper was about to land but “drifted away” because of the weather conditions.

Further details are awaited.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by sajaym »

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3076 ... ing-mig-21

People will wonder why I have put this post here. Here's why...this post has been put as a marker --

In Romania, they have got so fed up with their equivalent of our Mig-21 Bison, that they have decided to stop operating it from today - 15th April 2022. They have even decided to shift operations to second hand F-16s!

Meanwhile our hot shots still continue to operate the Mig-21 Bison...while they have the opportunity to operate brand new LCAs !!

So from this date - 15th April 2022, we need a reference point for comparing Romanian and IAF Mig-21 ops, to see how many flight incidents could have been avoided if we had also stopped flying the Mig-21s from today.
Last edited by sajaym on 16 Apr 2022 08:38, edited 1 time in total.
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

^ This is a very disappointing post.

While your sentiments are understandable (and the frustration is justifiable), please do consider reframing your words... it comes across as waiting & wanting to have crashes to prove the point.
Pratyush
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Pratyush »

sajaym wrote:https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3076 ... ing-mig-21

People will wonder why I have put this post here. Here's why...this post has been put as a marker --

In Romania, they have got so fed up with their equivalent of our Mig-21 Bison, that they have decided to stop operating it from today - 15th April 2022. They have even decided to shift operations to second hand F-16s!

Meanwhile our hot shots still continue to operate the Mig-21 Bison...while they have the opportunity to operate brand new LCAs !!

So from this date - 15th April 2022, we need a reference point for comparing Romanian and IAF Mig-21 ops, to see how many flight incidents could have been avoided if we had also stopped flying the Mig-21s from today.
How many mig 21 were in service with Romania?

Can Romania continue to operate mig 21 in the current political situation. Romania is a NATO member?

What is the actual age of these jets?

Without having an understanding of these issues. It's not okay to just blame IAF.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Dilbu »

MiG fighter jet of Air Force crashes in Rajasthan, search on for pilots
An Indian Air Force MiG fighter aircraft crashed in Rajasthan's Barmer district on Thursday evening. The incident was reported at around 9 pm. The debris of the aircraft was found scattered on a half-kilometer stretch in Bhimda village in Barmer district. The area's district collector, superintendent of police and air force officials left for the spot after getting the news. According to sources, two pilots were inside the aircraft but their whereabouts are not known yet. The MiG aircraft was involved in a sortie over the Baytu region when the crash happened. The exact reason for the crash is not known yet.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

The IAF has lost now five MiG-21 pilots from 2021 to date - three last year and two today.

https://twitter.com/ganeshjakhar_/statu ... NPltep2yPQ ---> A fighter aircraft of Indian Air Force crashed in Baytoo area of Rajasthan's Barmer district. It was an IAF plane that crashed near Bhimda village in Baytoo. Both pilots have died in the crash.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Nihat »

IAF will never learn, unless they are forced to.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Prem Kumar »

"Give me MRFA,
or give them death"

...... seems to be the IAF top brass motto
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by AkshaySG »

The "brass" its actually red.. They have blood on their hands, As does everyone else who maliciously delayed Tejas and keeps pushing the import lobby.

As per Shiv Aroor " The older pilot was flight commander at his squadron. The younger, just getting into the thick of fighter ops"

Even if IAF gets the unobtainium it's desperately after.. How will they ever replace the experience, knowledge and exceptional skill these pilots have
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Atmavik »

Prem Kumar wrote:"Give me MRFA,
or give them death"

...... seems to be the IAF top brass motto

Sad day again. The buck stops with the leadership.

One can do ‘kadi ninda or kathor ninda’ all the want
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by basant »

The leadership does not have vision, intent and sense of responsibility for its force and cadre. Not unlike PA for their Northern Light Infantry (with high number of Shias) who disposed off their dead too. There is something deeply disturbing stench that needs immediate clean up. But the leadership knows that all the noise will die down in a while and they can keep asking for urgent import of toys.

Let's be blatant. The IAF uses these accidents to highlight the urgent necessity for imports, even if it has to dilute benchmarks to save lives of rookies! The same does not apply to fatalities of experienced pilots flying Migs even if the Indian solution is accident free PLUS highly capable. The top brass swears by the safety of Migs, romanticizes their time flying them and lampoons Tejas. How do we explain this? IAF's eternal lament regarding long development cycle for indigenous solutions is more than offset at times by the decades of delay in pursuing pragmatic path to build a better force.

It's time the leadership is chosen for their competence and integrity. I am sure there are very many such officers in the IAF, but many seem to be weeded out somehow.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by S_Madhukar »

IAF and even IA seem to still have colonial mindset. They don’t think these are our sons being sacrificed just some “fine men” martyred in the service of the nation. And then some medals and back to square one. No urgency about anything. Carry on with the stiff upper lip. We probably have enough mig21 failure data points to build a better mig21 of our own! Enough of this free bakshish.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/15 ... rGmcHIra5A ---> Heartbroken for the families of the Wing Commander & Flight Lieutenant killed in today’s MiG-21 crash. The older pilot was flight commander at his squadron. The younger, just getting into the thick of fighter ops. No words enough tonight.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by sajaym »

sajaym wrote:https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3076 ... ing-mig-21

People will wonder why I have put this post here. Here's why...this post has been put as a marker --

In Romania, they have got so fed up with their equivalent of our Mig-21 Bison, that they have decided to stop operating it from today - 15th April 2022. They have even decided to shift operations to second hand F-16s!

Meanwhile our hot shots still continue to operate the Mig-21 Bison...while they have the opportunity to operate brand new LCAs !!

So from this date - 15th April 2022, we need a reference point for comparing Romanian and IAF Mig-21 ops, to see how many flight incidents could have been avoided if we had also stopped flying the Mig-21s from today.
In reference to my earlier post...
1. 28th July 2022 - 1 airframe, 2 pilots.
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Sad.

May god give strength to their families to bear their irreplaceable loss.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/15 ... u2_EGBYOZw ---> The heart weeps. One of the pilots in yesterday's MiG-21 crash was 26-year-old Flight Lieutenant Advitiya Bal of Jammu. Through the night I’ve received messages of unspeakable grief from his course mates & cousins. His family has been informed. Please pray for their peace.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianDefense/ ... _21_crash/ ---> One of the pilots in the unfortunate MiG 21 crash near Barmer, Rajasthan. Flt Lt Advitiya Bal, an alumnus of Sainik School Nagrota and NDA. May his soul rest in peace.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Dilbu »

This is heart wrenching. It is difficult to express the sadness and hopelessness. Sad sad state of affairs.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by KSingh »

The inevitability of it is the despicable part. In the interim those that have the power are not lifting a finger to prevent the next one

IAF CAS’s (and his entire senior brass) obsession with gold plated foreign toys is literally killing his pilots but he’ll retire in a few years to a comfy pension and his replacement will come in and preside over the same.


As if fighter pilots grow on trees (forgetting about the human tragedy)
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15529007 ... WoMEomcCYQ ---> Wing Commander Mohit Rana and Flight Lieutenant Advitiya Bal are the two pilots who lost their lives in MiG-21 fighter aircraft crash in Barmer, Rajasthan last evening.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Click on link below for VIDEO.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/15 ... XaPvAMmkDw ---> BIG: Delays & politics have forced the IAF to keep MiG-21s longer than it would have liked, says ex-IAF Chief BS Dhanoa on my show.

Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) tweets back at the above video.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15530 ... XaPvAMmkDw ---> Right said sir...

'Someone should press the fast forward button. You don't know when the next crisis will happen.... you should not be again fighting an F-16 with a Bison.'

Agree! Hope long-term strategy aligns. Imports are passe. We've to build our own. Latest tech. ASAP.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:Click on link below for VIDEO.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/15 ... XaPvAMmkDw ---> BIG: Delays & politics have forced the IAF to keep MiG-21s longer than it would have liked, says ex-IAF Chief BS Dhanoa on my show.
This is only half the story. IAF leadership's own stubbornness and insistence on expensive pie-in-the-sky solutions is the other half. Is hamaam me sab nange hai.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:This is only half the story. IAF leadership's own stubbornness and insistence on expensive pie-in-the-sky solutions is the other half. Is hamaam me sab nange hai.
In the interview above....the first set of words that came out of the Air Chief's mouth was ".....114 MRFA...."

My goodness!!! When will they ever learn!!! :roll: It will NOT come on time. What planet are these people on?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote: In the interview above....the first set of words that came out of the Air Chief's mouth was ".....114 MRFA...."

My goodness!!! When will they ever learn!!! :roll: It will NOT come on time. What planet are these people on?
Corrected it. There is no money. The Chief thinks if they keep insisting on it long enough the govt. will magically produce the money from somewhere.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:Click on link below for VIDEO.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/15 ... XaPvAMmkDw ---> BIG: Delays & politics have forced the IAF to keep MiG-21s longer than it would have liked, says ex-IAF Chief BS Dhanoa on my show.

Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) tweets back at the above video.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15530 ... XaPvAMmkDw ---> Right said sir...

'Someone should press the fast forward button. You don't know when the next crisis will happen.... you should not be again fighting an F-16 with a Bison.'

Agree! Hope long-term strategy aligns. Imports are passe. We've to build our own. Latest tech. ASAP.
I’m getting so exasperated at IAF’s rewriting of history and continued lack of urgency to get these death traps out of service


https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... B90SagoeXQ
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:
nachiket wrote:This is only half the story. IAF leadership's own stubbornness and insistence on expensive pie-in-the-sky solutions is the other half. Is hamaam me sab nange hai.
In the interview above....the first set of words that came out of the Air Chief's mouth was ".....114 MRFA...."

My goodness!!! When will they ever learn!!! :roll: It will NOT come on time. What planet are these people on?
Yup. Straight to MMRCA before Shiv could even get the words out

It’s abundantly clear what IAF’s priorities are and it isn’t IDDM, it isn’t even protecting the lives of their service members. MMRCA at all costs is their goal
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