Military Flight Safety

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KSingh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by KSingh »

+ do we remember a few years back (2019 maybe) when the then CAS was asked about additional Rafales as an emergency solution and he said IAF was only interested in their full 100+ demand.

Had they ordered additional Rafales in 2019/20/21 there would be 4-5 Rafale SQNs in IAF service come 2025 when they say MiG-21s will be phased out. With LCA MK1A coming on stream ~2024 that would mean a healthy intake of new jets come 2025. Instead it will be a trickle until ~2025-6 when 16/year MK1A are made but even this is pitiful compared to 100/year PLAAF is inducting

At this point they are sacrificing pilots to try and hold GoI to ransom and hoping soon GoI/MoD announces MRFA will be fast racked for emergency requirements
Prem Kumar
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Prem Kumar »

21 Mig-21 crashes in the last decade. Even Bangladesh and Afghanistan have stopped flying them!

Yes, Ex ACM Dhanoa casually tells the nation that the Mig-21 is not a flying coffin & as Rakesh pointed out, the first words out of his mouth was the MMRCA deal :evil:

More than half of 800-odd Migs have crashed, killing over 200 people :eek: Imagine (God-forbid), the Tejas series having even 1/5th of that kind of crash record. The same IAF brass will be the first ones to demonize the entire program.

Haridas is spot on in the other thread: the entire top-brass of the IAF is part of the import-cabal and needs to be sidelined. But given the RM's insipid leadership & the PM's inability to take on any organized group, nothing of this sort will happen.
skumar
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by skumar »

KSingh wrote:...
At this point they are sacrificing pilots to try and hold GoI to ransom and hoping soon GoI/MoD announces MRFA will be fast racked for emergency requirements
Prem Kumar wrote:..
But given the RM's insipid leadership & the PM's inability to take on any organized group, nothing of this sort will happen.
Crux of the problem approaching traitorous levels during these times of conflict.
wig
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by wig »

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/armys-c ... _topscroll
Pilot killed in cheetah helicopter crash near tawang
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Tragic news on the holy day of Vijaya Dashmi

Om Shanti!

May the almighty give strength to the family to bear his loss
Bala Vignesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Bala Vignesh »

May he attain moksha and may the gods grant his family the strength to bear his loss!!
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Om shanti. Veer gati praaptirastu.
My thoughts and prayers for the kin and family. :(
prashantsharma
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by prashantsharma »

Lt Col Yadav is the son of a retired IAF fighter pilot.
Very sad.
venkat_kv
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by venkat_kv »

Om Shanti to the departed.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Om Shanti.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Folks am curious about the old M2K upgrade crash during testing.
Did they ever resolve the flight computer(nonupgrade part issue)?

I had suspected there was a tin whisker that shorted the flight computer and it won't be known till it is opened up.
Dassault claimed their flight computers are OK.
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Sir what is a tin whisker?
Bala Vignesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Bala Vignesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Sir what is a tin whisker?
A very tiny sliver of solder tin that is seen during soldering a component onto a PCB.

That is a major QC lapse, if that is indeed true.
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

How does that cause a MK2 to crash at take-off?
arvin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by arvin »

That might cause a short circuit.
Tanaji
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Tanaji »

Bala Vignesh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Sir what is a tin whisker?
A very tiny sliver of solder tin that is seen during soldering a component onto a PCB.

That is a major QC lapse, if that is indeed true.
Wouldnt a short circuit throw up a failure code at startup itself during pre- flight checks?
Aldonkar
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Aldonkar »

Tanaji wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote: A very tiny sliver of solder tin that is seen during soldering a component onto a PCB.

That is a major QC lapse, if that is indeed true.
Wouldnt a short circuit throw up a failure code at startup itself during pre- flight checks?
As a retired engineer, I perhaps may put in my 2p worth. In the old days of dual in line "through the PCB" components solder bridges were quite common on assembled boards if the operator was inexperienced and as you say usually were weeded out in post production testing.

With modern "surface mount" printed circuits, solder paste is applied to the PCB using a stencil. The components are then placed on the PCB by machines. The PCB then goes through an oven often on a belt so that it experiences a controlled rise in temperature. The solder paste melts, surface tension causes the components to align correctly, and then the cooler temperature causes the solidification of the solder. The whole board, often both sides is soldered in one go. With surface mount, everything is smaller than in the previous "through hole" process occasionally solder bridges do occur and are weeded out as before in post production tests, but sometimes small solder balls remain on the board not causing a short. In time they may come free, vibration or forces during operation causes them to move and cause a short. This may be what the previous writer was referring to.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Ks-Sachin Tin whiskers are small tin crystals that grow with time due to stress concentration. The root cause is the tempering process inadequacies. This retains the stress and over time it grows.
The shock of takeoff and landing could free the metal whisker that can cause intermittent short.
Modern mfg process uses better techniques as Aldonkar described.
We don't know when and how these boards were made. I donthink they use modern SMT.
And Dassault was reluctant to open the investigation.

In light of that a mitigation would be to shake the boxes at regular intervals and fly with those that pass.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Alodonkar Are you familiar with Pinsky algorithm?
For tin whisker presence.

My first post on this.

viewtopic.php?p=2360243#p2360243
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Tweets coming in of a MiG 29K lost, during routine patrol off Goa

Pilot ejected and recovered in SAR op
Nihat
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Nihat »

Thank god for pilot safety
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Thank Gods! This is the one thread I hate to see pop up.
wig
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by wig »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/india/mi ... 4c6818fae9
MiG 29K Fighter Aircraft Crashes Over Sea On Routine Sortie Near Goa Coast, Pilot Ejected Safely
The Indian Navy said that a MiG 29K fighter aircraft experienced a technical issue while returning to base on Wednesday and crashed over the sea during a routine sortie off the coast of Goa. The pilot ejected successfully, and according to the forces, a quick search and rescue operation resulted in his recovery. According to reports, the pilot's condition is stable."A MiG 29K on a routine sortie over sea off Goa developed a technical malfunction while returning to base. The pilot ejected safely & has been recovered in a swift SAR ops. Pilot reported to be in stable condition. BoI ordered to investigate the cause of the incident," tweeted Navy.
sajaym
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by sajaym »

Thank God for nil fatalities.

Looks like the Navy Mig-29s are settling into a 'crash-per-year' pattern. They really have to cut down the flight hours of these Migs till the hornets/rafales come in.

I wonder whether we should've stuck with the original engine instead of this Rd-33k.
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

sajaym wrote:Thank God for nil fatalities.

Looks like the Navy Mig-29s are settling into a 'crash-per-year' pattern. They really have to cut down the flight hours of these Migs till the hornets/rafales come in.

I wonder whether we should've stuck with the original engine instead of this Rd-33k.
On the Navy MiG-29s, the engine is of modular construction, meaning that the affected modules (or sections) of the engine can be replaced individually.

The air force MiG-29s have a conventional engine, meaning the entire engine needs to be swapped out.

reliable data on snags, shop visit rates etc may be difficult to come by.
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Fighter jet flying is dangerous and these are machines that are operating at the out edge of risk across a broad spectrum. Technical snags can come about and it perhaps an issue with the maintenance that something should have been picked up.

The IAF or IN cannot reduce flying time and training for the next 3 years till some other aircraft comes in just because there is a higher level of risk.
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

ks_sachin wrote:Fighter jet flying is dangerous and these are machines that are operating at the out edge of risk across a broad spectrum. Technical snags can come about and it perhaps an issue with the maintenance that something should have been picked up.

The IAF or IN cannot reduce flying time and training for the next 3 years till some other aircraft comes in just because there is a higher level of risk.
ks_sachin ji,

As a matter of routine we tend to fly a lot more than many other richer and bigger air forces/navy

Those guys fly the bulk of their hours on simulators and some limited time doing actual sorties and that keeps them flying fit and honed.

More economical in terms of savings on fuel, spares, manhours etc, less wear and tear on the very very expensive machines.
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Ok Sir,

Since you are back after a long hiatus I shall defer to your better judgement.
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Reports coming in of Army chopper crash near Singing village in Arunachal Pradesh

Hoping that the personnel are safe..
kancha
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by kancha »

Manish_P wrote:Reports coming in of Army chopper crash near Singing village in Arunachal Pradesh

Hoping that the personnel are safe..
https://twitter.com/Spearcorps/status/1 ... 2801203200

Helicopter Crash
An Army Aviation ALH WSI that took off from Likabali in morning has crashed at 1043h in Migging (South of Tuting) #ArunachalPradesh. Search & Rescue under progress. Joint teams of Army & Airforce launched.Other details to follow
@adgpi

@easterncomd
wig
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by wig »

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/army-he ... _topscroll

Army Chopper Crash In Arunachal, Search Op On; Site Not Connected By Road

excerpts
army helicopter crashed in Arunachal Pradesh's Upper Siang district on Friday. According to reports, the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) crashed near Migging village. The site of the crash is not connected by any road but a rescue team has been sent to the location, said Upper Siang senior cop Jummar Basar, as quoted by news agency ANI.
The helicopter, carrying army personnel, was on a regular sortie after taking off from Likabali this morning. The crash took place at 10.43 am.

As there are no motorable roads leading to the village, except a hanging bridge, three joint teams of both army and the air force are engaged in the rescue op with one Mi-17 and two Dhruv helicopters. Local villagers are also said to be involved in the rescue work.
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Video clip shows white / grey smoke at the site. Thick forest canopy.

Hoping the crew/passengers make it
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Manish_P wrote:Video clip shows white / grey smoke at the site. Thick forest canopy.

Hoping the crew/passengers make it
Added - Bad news. 3 personnel have lost their lives. 2 bodies recovered.

May god give strength to the families to bear the irreparable loss of their loved one. Om shanti
wig
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by wig »

2 bodies of military personnel recovered
excerpts
Two bodies of military personnel were recovered who were in an ALH Dhruv helicopter which crashed on Friday in the Upper Siang district of Arunachal Pradesh. Meanwhile, efforts are being made to recover the third body, Army officials said.

A total of five personnel were on board the ill-fated chopper.
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... way-443439
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SoumyadipTweets/sta ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Update: The helicopter has been identified as ALH WSI. Total 4 bodies has been recovered, out of 5. Om Shanti.
rrao
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by rrao »

Loss of valuable lives is very very sad indeed. ALH has twin Engines and designed to operate at higher altitudes. What makes them crash so all of a sudden? it has two engines ,will both fail simultaneously? on a single engine at least it can be make an emergency landing... Any microwave bursted across the border, which might have shut down electrical power... AFCS malfunction...
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

The actual cause can only be determined once the Court of Inquiry (COI) is completed.

The findings of the COI are usually not revealed to the public.
YashG
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by YashG »

When i first read the news i thought this was yet another chetak kind of heli crash but i was taken a lil more aback after I read it was ALH. I'd wish new platforms wudnt crash fatally.
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

It's extremely saddening no doubt.

But whenever I feel very despondent, I remember an interview of ex Air Chief Tipnis sir - "Beta, the only way to prevent crashes is to not fly at all. Simulators or not, that is not an option. Crashes will happen, precious lives will be lost. But we in the IAF train hard and fly to the limits during peacetime so that we might not get wiped out during wartime"
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

rrao wrote:Loss of valuable lives is very very sad indeed. ALH has twin Engines and designed to operate at higher altitudes. What makes them crash so all of a sudden? it has two engines ,will both fail simultaneously? on a single engine at least it can be make an emergency landing... Any microwave bursted across the border, which might have shut down electrical power... AFCS malfunction...
Boss before you go on your flights of fancy read up on what flying like is in the NE.

If. Brand new IPhone can develop a glitch a complex machine like a heptr stands no chance.

Anything can happen and the margins these guys are operating on are very fine.

Sometimes you dont have enough time to do an emergency landing or sometimes as a pilot the weather conditions can disorientate you.
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