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Military Flight Safety

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wig
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby wig » 10 Sep 2016 15:35

crash of the Mig 21 T69 trainer. It had two pilots who managed to eject. there are photos of the crashed machine in the link
An Indian Air Force MiG-21 fighter aircraft crashed in Barmer area of Rajasthan on Saturday. The pilot and the co-pilot managed to eject safely.
The trainer aircraft crashed near a school at Mangi Ki Dhani in the desert district at 12.15 pm. The aircraft had taken off from Uttarlai airbase near Barmer

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 263980.cms

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Bhaskar_T » 13 Sep 2016 23:31

Livefist - Scary stuff. IAF Jaguar catches fire during take-off roll at Ambala air base this evening. Pilot aborts take off, effects quick exit, safe.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2016 07:54

Bhaskar_T wrote:Livefist - Scary stuff. IAF Jaguar catches fire during take-off roll at Ambala air base this evening. Pilot aborts take off, effects quick exit, safe.

Thanks for posting, Flame out at takeoff could possibly be a bird ingestion.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby wig » 14 Sep 2016 10:22

More news on Fighter plane catches fire at Ambala, I think the pilot used the ejection mechanism while the plane crashed into the barrier at the end of the airstrip

AMBALA, Sept 13:
Indian Air Force’s Jaguar aircraft, a deep strike fighter plane capable of carrying nuclear payload, today caught fire minutes before take off at Ambala air base but the pilot ejected safely.
Defence sources said the pilot spotted fire during the take off roll, aborted the take off and ejected safely.
The aircraft hit the barrier on the runway, sources said, adding that a court of inquiry has been ordered into the accident.
The aircraft was to take off for a routine sortie.
On Saturday, another MiG-21 trainer aircraft crashed in Rajasthan’s Barmer district but no loss of life was reported with both the pilots ejecting safely.
The MiG-21 T-69 aircraft, which took off from the Uttarlai airforce station in Barmer, crashed near the airbase. PTI SAP
Ambala Deputy Commissioner Prabhjot Singh, quoting a senior IAF official, said the incident occurred at around 8 pm. “The pilot is safe and has been taken to Army hospital for a check-up,” Singh said.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/fighter-p ... ches-fire/

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby deejay » 14 Sep 2016 14:10

wig wrote:More news on Fighter plane catches fire at Ambala, I think the pilot used the ejection mechanism while the plane crashed into the barrier at the end of the airstrip

AMBALA, Sept 13:
Indian Air Force’s Jaguar aircraft, a deep strike fighter plane capable of carrying nuclear payload, today caught fire minutes before take off at Ambala air base but the pilot ejected safely.
Defence sources said the pilot spotted fire during the take off roll, aborted the take off and ejected safely.
The aircraft hit the barrier on the runway, sources said, adding that a court of inquiry has been ordered into the accident.
The aircraft was to take off for a routine sortie.
On Saturday, another MiG-21 trainer aircraft crashed in Rajasthan’s Barmer district but no loss of life was reported with both the pilots ejecting safely.
The MiG-21 T-69 aircraft, which took off from the Uttarlai airforce station in Barmer, crashed near the airbase. PTI SAP
Ambala Deputy Commissioner Prabhjot Singh, quoting a senior IAF official, said the incident occurred at around 8 pm. “The pilot is safe and has been taken to Army hospital for a check-up,” Singh said.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/fighter-p ... ches-fire/


I think it is ""quick exit" and not an "ejection". They are two different things.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Shameek » 16 Sep 2016 05:40

Auto-GCAS Saves Unconscious F-16 Pilot - (Not IAF but interesting from the point of Safety)

brar_w
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby brar_w » 16 Sep 2016 05:48

Auto GCAS video from AFRL is posted in the Int. thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6922&start=160#p2043344

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Bhaskar_T » 20 Sep 2016 15:11

Mig-21 damaged, Pilot safe.

A Mig-21 aircraft of Indian Air Force today overshot the runway of Srinagar airport while landing. The aircraft was damaged in the accident. However, the pilot was evacuated safely.

The runway has been closed at the airport for the time being. All flight operations have also been cancelled for now.

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india-i ... ely-348932


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Bhaskar_T » 20 Sep 2016 15:11

A MiG-21 fighter overshot the runway by 200 meters while making an emergency landing at Srinagar Airport, around 12 km from the city, on September 20 afternoon after developing a technical snag.

The jet’s pilot was immediately evacuated safely, but the runway has been damaged. Civilian flights to and from the airport have been suspended.


The jet’s tyres were badly burnt due to the emergency landing, but timely action on the part of the pilot saved the plane, said airport sources. Fire tenders were rushed to the runaway to ensure that the aircraft did not catch fire, they added.

Indian Air Force offices refused to comment on the incident while the Public Relations Officer, Defence, said he would comment only after getting the relevant information from the authorities concerned.

http://www.tehelka.com/2016/09/mig-21-f ... r-airport/

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 25 Sep 2016 18:52

For many years I have seen a crowd of newcomers saying what the media misleads them to say - that only the IAF has crashes and no one else.

Finally, with Twitter I have a tool to let people see the truth - at least as far as information is shared on Twitter. Every time I see news of a flight accident I tag in with the hashtag #FlightSafety. So by doing a Twitter search for #FlightSafety @bennedose (that's me) - you get to see all the various international accidents I have tagged.

I have only just started recently but this is the link
https://twitter.com/search?src=typd&q=% ... 0bennedose

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 03 Oct 2016 17:26


JayS
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2016 17:43

^^ Second accident in short time. :(

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 03 Oct 2016 18:55

" a crowd of newcomers saying what the media misleads them to say - that only the IAF has crashes and no one else.
- you get to see all the various international accidents I have tagged."

I suppose laypeople, and non-laypeople, would like to know how India compares in ratio of accidents to flying time, as well as total number of accidents. Which country is the 'worst' in this regard, and which the best? It does seem that India has quite a few. Even a BBC correspondent mentioned it as a worrying trend. Not that, of course, being on the BBC by itself is something so significant. But the problem remains.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Bhaskar_T » 03 Oct 2016 18:56

Was this an upgraded Jaguar?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 03 Oct 2016 20:19

Varoon Shekhar wrote:" a crowd of newcomers saying what the media misleads them to say - that only the IAF has crashes and no one else.
- you get to see all the various international accidents I have tagged."

I suppose laypeople, and non-laypeople, would like to know how India compares in ratio of accidents to flying time, as well as total number of accidents. Which country is the 'worst' in this regard, and which the best? It does seem that India has quite a few. Even a BBC correspondent mentioned it as a worrying trend. Not that, of course, being on the BBC by itself is something so significant. But the problem remains.

This requires people to publish flying hours versus accidents. I have seen such stats only for US and India and around Tipnis' time and after it was stated that the IAF revamped its flight safety procedures and had reached norms that were comparable to "international norms"

That said my late cousin Suresh, who worked in Flight Safety and Flight accident investigation after a health issue retirement from the air force had mentioned to me a curious fact about flying times in India and the US. Of course he has been dead over 10 years now so these facts go back pretty much to pre-Sukhoi days. He said that the US, because of its extremely busy airspace and need for US aircraft to fly long distances for exercises routinely had to fly 2 hours or more per sortie with refuellings if need be because even fighters sometimes had to join a stack waiting for landing clearance.

But with Indias MiG 21s and their 45 minute flying time - there were more takeoffs and landings of IAF planes per 1000 hours of flying. With most flying accidents taking place around the time of takeoff or landing rather than mid-flight catastrophes, India's accident rates per hour of flying were much higher back then. I don't know what it is now but Jagan's page has a comprehensive list of all accidents. But China, Pakistan and a whole lot of other air forces simply do not make their flying hours public. Note that fewer flying hours means fewer accidents and the IAF flies one heck of a lot

But much of this has been discussed earlier in this thread and what I have written above is a repeat f what I have certainly written earlier in this thread, I would like to see IAf plans with a lot more safety features - cable cutters for helos and terrain following radar. The IAF flies in a treacherous environment and all Pilots who fly in Europe and India remark that Indian airspace has a haze that restricts visbility as compared to the miles of clear air above Europe. Not all pollution - much of it is dust (I have been told)

you would be doing great social service if you went to the site linked below and did a manual count and tabulated it on a spreadsheet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_ ... y_aircraft

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Kannan » 07 Oct 2016 11:38

shiv wrote:That said my late cousin Suresh, who worked in Flight Safety and Flight accident investigation after a health issue retirement from the air force had mentioned to me a curious fact about flying times in India and the US. Of course he has been dead over 10 years now so these facts go back pretty much to pre-Sukhoi days. He said that the US, because of its extremely busy airspace and need for US aircraft to fly long distances for exercises routinely had to fly 2 hours or more per sortie with refuellings if need be because even fighters sometimes had to join a stack waiting for landing clearance.


They do fly a lot more, but I doubt that they "have to", probably just the significant funds available. They have plenty of military flight training routes that let them "speed" past the 250kts limit at low level within civil traffic, and I don't see any obvious places where they couldn't get to their military ops area (MOA) within 15-20 mins. They seem pretty lenient in how they keep their currency though, and since the USAF (even more than the ostensible US Army) is divided into its active and reserve/guard components, flying habits probably show notable state to state differences or differences depending on who's going to be rotated into active.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby deejay » 14 Oct 2016 21:46

This video was originally posted on the STFUP thread by Prem ji.

A Pakistani news video of discussion on air crashes of PAF, PA and PN. Total 61 in 05 yrs and they fly less than us. The video is heavily edited but there are data points to be picked up. For those with only basic knowledge there are some explanations too. The anchor does ask relevant questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5w1UIQv940


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 14 Oct 2016 22:32

deejay wrote:This video was originally posted on the STFUP thread by Prem ji.

A Pakistani news video of discussion on air crashes of PAF, PA and PN. Total 61 in 05 yrs and they fly less than us. The video is heavily edited but there are data points to be picked up. For those with only basic knowledge there are some explanations too. The anchor does ask relevant questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5w1UIQv940


Indeed

Watch from this point
https://youtu.be/I5w1UIQv940?t=546

The Paki Air marshal explains clearly why aircraft optimized for low-flying strike roles have to fly in more risky situations and have less recovery time than the high flying air defence Mirage IIIs of the PAF

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Bob V » 19 Oct 2016 16:17


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby D.Mahesh » 20 Oct 2016 08:09

shiv wrote:
I suppose laypeople, and non-laypeople, would like to know how India compares in ratio of accidents to flying time, as well as total number of accidents. Which country is the 'worst' in this regard, and which the best? It does seem that India has quite a few. Even a BBC correspondent mentioned it as a worrying trend. Not that, of course, being on the BBC by itself is something so significant. But the problem remains.

This requires people to publish flying hours versus accidents. I have seen such stats only for US and India and around Tipnis' time and after it was stated that the IAF revamped its flight safety procedures and had reached norms that were comparable to "international norms"

That said my late cousin Suresh....[/quote]

Doc, much of the flying within the US is possibly in level terrain across wide open spaces. And they do have v.many dedicated AF Bases and NAS. And yes they're maintained extremely well!

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 20 Oct 2016 08:19

D.Mahesh wrote:
Doc, much of the flying within the US is possibly in level terrain across wide open spaces. And they do have v.many dedicated AF Bases and NAS. And yes they're maintained extremely well!

True but this is about airspace and not terrain. What I heard from my cousin who went to the US for a training course (early 1980s) and actually flew there was the fact that the airspace over the US is very busy with civil flights and military aircraft also have to be in touch with Air Traffic Controllers regarding heights and flight paths while flying over the mainland. So it's not as if US military aircraft can simply take off and fly wherever they want whenever they want - they have to go by the flight safety regulations of the US. One of the reasons why military flying time gets extended is that planes are "stacked" at different altitudes and even military aircraft must stay within the parameters they are given. This was an insight that most armchair marshals do not get.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby deejay » 20 Oct 2016 10:51

shiv wrote:...
True but this is about airspace and not terrain. What I heard from my cousin who went to the US for a training course (early 1980s) and actually flew there was the fact that the airspace over the US is very busy with civil flights and military aircraft also have to be in touch with Air Traffic Controllers regarding heights and flight paths while flying over the mainland. So it's not as if US military aircraft can simply take off and fly wherever they want whenever they want - they have to go by the flight safety regulations of the US. One of the reasons why military flying time gets extended is that planes are "stacked" at different altitudes and even military aircraft must stay within the parameters they are given. This was an insight that most armchair marshals do not get.


This is true for India too. All Air traffic rules apply universally. No exceptions.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby JayS » 20 Oct 2016 16:28

^^I think, the point Shiv trying to make it the density of air-traffic in far more in US than in India. So the free space for AF, where they can do anything they want, might be limited there, as compared to India. I have read somewhere US has like 5000+ paved airstrips and almost all the places in US have some airstrip or the other within 50miles distance from it (dunno if its on an average or literally true).

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 20 Oct 2016 18:52

Yes. Air traffic density is what I meant - which in the US is very high - and that apparently extends the flying time of US military aircraft as they also must join the queue for take off and landing approaches in a country where there are over 50,000 flights per day - many of them privately owned aircraft and not just large civilian airliners. At least this is what I was told. In the 1980s the contrast between India and the US would have been higher.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2016 10:44

My video version of a story of how a Jaguar that was 2 minutes from disaster was saved and a fault discovered. The story, related by my late cousin Suresh, is on BR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKbQdYlpCAY

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby abhishek_sharma » 30 Nov 2016 13:46

Shiv Aroor ‏@ShivAroor 2m2 minutes ago
BREAKING: Indian Army Cheetah light helicopter crashes in Bengal, three officers killed. @IndiaToday

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 17 Jan 2017 14:53

Indranil wrote:Unfortunately, a Thai Gripen has crashed recently in an aerial demonstration.


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Jan 2017 15:06

As per wiki for F16:

Number built 4,573 (July 2016)

and F-16 has been involved in over 650 hull-loss accidents as of June 2016.

means close to 15% have been crashed already !!

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dbl ... key&page=7

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Austin » 29 Jan 2017 16:40


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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby kmkraoind » 23 Feb 2017 00:00

Another Super Hercules damaged in Ladakh, India now has only four - TOI

NEW DELHI: A C-130J 'Super Hercules' aircraft being flown by the commanding officer of the elite 'Veiled Vipers' squadron of IAF has been left badly-damaged after it crashed into a pole and other structures while taxing on the tarmac in the high-altitude Thoise airfield in Ladakh recently.

Sources say the IAF is now conducting a high-level court of inquiry (CoI) into the unusual mishap after relieving the pilot, Group Captain Jasveen Singh Chatrath, of his command of the 77 Squadron (Veiled Vipers) based at Hindon airbase on the outskirts of New Delhi.

The accident has currently left the IAF with only four of the six C-130J tactical airlifters, which are configured for `special operations', inducted from the US from February 2011 onwards. The IAF had earlier lost a C-130J during "a tactical low-level training sortie" after it crashed near Gwalior in March 2014, killing the five personnel on board.

Group Captain Chatrath, along with his co-pilot and weapons systems operator, in turn, was on a night sortie on the C-130J to the military airfield at Thoise, which is the staging area for the Siachen Glacier-Saltoro Ridge region, when the accident took place on December 13.

The IAF, which has kept the incident under wraps till now, refused to say anything on the matter. Sources, however, said the pilots apparently failed to keep the C-130J on the "centreline of the taxiway" after landing at the airfield at an altitude of over 10,000-feet.

"They mistook another line to be the centreline (which provides obstacle clearance) at the airfield which has restricted space for manoeuvre. One of the wings and propeller of the aircraft then hit the pole and some other objects with great impact. Whether the centreline and other lines were marked properly and all other factors are being examined by the CoI," said a source.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby ramana » 23 Feb 2017 01:02

^^^
Above looks like multiple factors:

Night landing on a narrow restricted space air field, the centerline runway marker was not followed.

While easy way out is blame the pilot the airfield had significant contributors to the accident.
Pilot is an experienced officer.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2017 01:35

How constricted is the runway?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Gagan » 23 Feb 2017 01:44

It is winter in Leh, wonder if there was snow on the runway.
Sometimes markings are not visible even after snow is cleared, due to salt use or left over snow.

The plane might be serviceable if the damage is light.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2017 01:44

the main runway itself is wide (i.e. no poles or other tall objects nearby). For the accident to occur, they likely veered off the centreline.

see image below of Thoise airfield;

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7058/6910 ... f6ef_b.jpg

from this URL

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kshathriya/6910641916

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Gagan » 23 Feb 2017 01:51

Rakesh
This is Thoise, not Leh

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2017 01:52

Gagan, as per the above article the accident happened in Thoise.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Gagan » 23 Feb 2017 02:01

Oh Sorry!
Maybe on an exit taxiway on the way to the Tarmac.
There is an exit that is half built and ends suddenly there.

Just speculating
Last edited by Gagan on 23 Feb 2017 02:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby ramana » 23 Feb 2017 02:01

Rakesh wrote:Gagan, as per the above article the accident happened in Thoise.

Image

So which poles did the plane hit? Even if one edge of the runway is mistaken for the centre line its still difficult to see any poles that the plane ran into. Unless the poles are new. May be air defence net deployment poles?

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2017 02:16

ramana sir, please see your mailbox.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Postby shiv » 23 Feb 2017 08:09

Speaking recently to a retired IAF officer - I heard that despite the reliability and praiseworthy known characteristics of the C-130 - the IAF has flying conditions that the C-130 was simply not designed to accommodate. Most air forces simply do not routinely face the conditions that India throws up. Landing and taking off at places like Leh and Thoise is no joke and the fact that the IAF does it regularly makes it seem like landing and taking off from a low lying airfield in clear weather is no sweat.


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