Military Flight Safety

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Luxtor
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Luxtor »

Saddened to hear of this crash and sorry to say this but that helicopter had no business flying in that bad weather condition with such VVIPs on board. As mentioned here by others...this is more common than people think. VVIPs - gov't, military, or celebrities always demand that pilots fly them to their destination no matter what the weather is. Sometimes it's the VIP and other times the pilots themselves put pressure on themselves in not wanting to disappoint their boss(es), fly into such bad weather and crash.
AkshaySG
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by AkshaySG »

If the video is accurate then the heli must have been in IFR (Flying solely on instruments) and not flying by visuals.

So to have a CFIT (Controlled flight into terrain) would require either some type of instrument failure or some very poor piloting skills, I really doubt the latter could have been true.

We have used Mi-17s in much more adverse conditions than some fog and they have performed admirably.

The black box will tell the story but at this point each there are no easy causes to swallow

- Either one of our best helicopters developed a major fault and is vulnerable in certain conditions,

- Or one of our finest pilots made a fatal mistake

- Or some sort of sabotage, If external then it's an act of war.. If internal then I can't even imagine the fallout.
fanne
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by fanne »

I would also look into if the instrumentation was messed around during maintenance, or just before this sortie.
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

wait for the investigation report.

unwarranted speculation is fruitless


Image
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

CDS General Bipin Rawat was found alive, died on way to hospital: Rescuer
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 173692.cms
09 Dec 2021
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Crash Survivor, Group Captain Varun Singh, Is On Life Support
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/group-c ... le-2643507
09 Dec 2021

Shaurya Chakra awardee Varun Singh survives one night; next 48 hours critical
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... cal-348205
09 Dec 2021
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Chetak, can you please put the link to this image?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by rsingh »

---edited by mod---
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:Chetak, can you please put the link to this image?
got it on WA forward, saar.

can't trace it on google too.

got it: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 7490178048
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Thank You Chetak. I have edited your original post to put that link in.
V_Raman
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by V_Raman »

Girls have a shawl around their heads for cold weather - common...
nachiket
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by nachiket »

rsingh, do not post conspiracy theories here. Let's wait for the official inquiry to provide an update.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:Crash Survivor, Group Captain Varun Singh, Is On Life Support
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/group-c ... le-2643507
09 Dec 2021

Shaurya Chakra awardee Varun Singh survives one night; next 48 hours critical
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... cal-348205
09 Dec 2021
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/14 ... 19362?s=20 --->

Update on Group Captain Varun Singh, now admitted to Command Hospital Air Force, Bangalore.

* Very critical
* 90% burns; no urine output
* Vitals are normal
* He is unconscious
* Top teams begin investigation
* Partial/full CT scans among other tests
* More than the burns, other injuries to be probed
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by rsingh »

nachiket wrote:rsingh, do not post conspiracy theories here. Let's wait for the official inquiry to provide an update.
My bad Sir. My blood is boiling (what ever I have).
m_saini
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by m_saini »

Rakesh wrote: Update on Group Captain Varun Singh, now admitted to Command Hospital Air Force, Bangalore...
Never understood how/why their personal medical information is released, especially the 90% burns stuff etc. Imo pretty irresponsible and slightly disrespectful from writetake/tarmakmediahouse whoever reported it first.
Last edited by m_saini on 10 Dec 2021 02:16, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

This info is actually released by Doctors at the Hospital. Tarmak is just repeating what has been reported.

There is no way he would know this, if this information was not publicly released. He is a not a Doctor.

If he (or anyone else) got it on the sly, then yes...I fully agree with you.
suryag
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by suryag »

Tarmak is one of the most responsible journos love the man
Atmavik
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Atmavik »

suryag wrote:Tarmak is one of the most responsible journos love the man
+1 he is very professional
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

The pilots who were flying the Mi-17V5 helo are in the middle - Wing Commander Prithvi Singh Chauhan and Squadron Leader Kuldeep Singh.

https://twitter.com/AnoopYa44482782/sta ... 88128?s=20 --->

Image
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

1) Here is Wiki link to Mil-17
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-17

2) In accidents section they list quite a few crashes. Can we try to find the root causes since 2000? That would be 20 year history.
This will be much useful instead of outraging over Shookla/Vookhla.

Chetan can you take lead?

Gagan will post cutaway of Mil-17. Sadly it's in Russian
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Accidents and notable incidents

On 16 September 2000, a Mi-17 of the Sri Lankan Airforce crashed near Aranayake in Kegalle District, Sri Lanka with one of the then government ministers on board. Besides the minister, there were 14 others on board – nine party officials, three bodyguards and two crew members. The authorities initially claimed that engine failure had caused the crash. The government immediately ordered an inquiry into the crash and in January 2001 President Kumaratunga appointed a Presidential Commission to inquire into the crash. However, neither found any conclusive evidence for the crash's cause.[153]

On 4 December 2003, a Polish Air Force Mi-8 crashed with Prime Minister Leszek Miller on board; all survived.

On 30 July 2005, a Mi-17 presidential helicopter crashed in mountain ranges in South Sudan due to poor visibility claiming the life of then President of South Sudan John Garang, six of his colleagues and seven Ugandan crew members. He was returning from a private visit in Rwakitura meeting President Yoweri Museveni of Uganda.[154][155]

On 12 January 2008, a Mi-17 of the Macedonian Armed Forces crashed, killing all three crew members and eight passengers.

On 3 March 2008, an Iraqi Air Force Mi-17 (Mi-8AMT) crashed near Baiji while ferrying troops from Tal Afar to the capital Baghdad. All eight people on board perished in the accident.[156]

On 31 May 2008, a People's Liberation Army Mi-171 transport crashed in southwest Sichuan province, killing 5 crew and 13 passengers on board. It was on a rescue mission during the 2008 Sichuan earthquake.[157]

On 14 January 2009, an Afghan Air Force Mi-17 crashed in Herat while en route to Farah province. All 13 on board were killed, including Maj. Gen. Fazl Ahmad Sayar, one of Afghanistan's four regional commanders.[158]

On 14 February 2010, a Yemeni Air Force Mi-17 crashed in Northern Yemen, hitting an Army vehicle. All eleven people on board were killed, along with three others on the ground.[159]

On 28 July 2010, an Iraqi Air Force Mi-17 (Mi-8M) crashed in a sandstorm about 110 km south of Baghdad, killing all 5 occupants.[160]

On 19 November 2010, an Indian Air Force Mi-17 crashed near Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh, India killing all 12 people on board. It had taken off from Tawang for Guwahati, and crashed about five minutes later at Bomdila.[161]

On 19 April 2011, a Pawan Hans Mi-172 burst into flames seconds before landing at Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh, India, killing 17 people on board.[162]

On 18 May 2012, a Mi-17 crashed while in training in Yaracuy, Venezuela, killing 4 people.[163]

On 11 July 2012, a Pakistan Army Mi-17 crashed near Skardu Airport in Gilgit-Baltistan, killing 5 people.[164]

On 30 August 2012, two Indian Air Force Mi-17s collided near Jamnagar in Western India, killing 9 people.[165]

On 11 February 2013, a Mi-17 belonging to Azerbaijani Air Force crashed into the Caspian Sea killing all 3 people on board.[166]

On 25 June 2013, a Mi-17V-5 of the Indian Air Force crashed while undertaking rescue operations in the flood-ravaged areas of the state of Uttarakhand in northern India. IAF chief NAK Browne ruled out possibility of any of the 20 men on board surviving. There were five staff from IAF, six from Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), and nine from National Disaster Response Force (NDRF).[167]

On 16 September 2013, a Turkish Air Force F-16 shot down a Syrian Mil-17 at the border after the helicopter violated Turkish airspace. Two crew members reportedly bailed out before the aircraft crashed in Syrian territory.[168]

On 9 November 2013, an Indonesian Army Mi-17 crash killed at least 13 people after the helicopter caught on fire in the jungles of Borneo.[169]

On 7 July 2014, a Vietnam People's Air Force Mi-171 military helicopter crashed on the outskirts of Hanoi while on a training mission for parachute recruits. Among 21 men on board, 16 died, 4 others died in hospital, only 1 survived.[170] The pilot crashed in a field, probably to avoid the local market and houses.[171][172]

On 10 July 2014, a Macedonian police Mi-17V-5 crashed overnight during a training flight near the southern town of Strumica, killing all four people on board. The four crew members were all pilots, each with more than 30 years of flight experience. They were on a night training flight when the Mi-17-V5 hit a 120-meter (394-ft) tall television transmitter tower near Strumica, about 190 kilometers (120 miles) south of the capital Skopje.[173]

On 21 September 2014, an Egyptian Army Mi-8/17 crashed near Kom Oshem, Fayoum Governrate while on a transport mission from Bani Sweif Governrate. All the crew died.[citation needed]

On 13 March 2015, Serbian Army Mi-17 crashed just short of Belgrade airport[174] when employed in transportation, from Novi Pazar to military medical facility in Belgrade, of a 5-day old baby with respiratory problems due to road blockade by the landslide. All 7 individuals aboard, including four crew members, two medical staff and the patient died.[175]

On 8 May 2015, a Pakistan Army Mi-17 crashed near the Naltar area of Gilgit in Gilgit-Baltistan, killing the Norwegian and Philippine ambassadors and the wives of the Malaysian and Indonesian ambassadors. Two Pakistan Army pilots, Major Al-Tamash and Major Faisal, were also killed in the incident. The Polish and Dutch ambassadors were injured.[176]

On 13 May 2015, a Mi-17 helicopter on a training flight belonging to Bangladesh Air Force crash landed at the airport and caught fire. All three people on board sustained major injuries and were hospitalized.[177]

On 28 July 2015, a Mi-17 from the Presov Helicopter Airbase of the Slovak Air Force crashed into a forested area near Hradisko, Terňa, Slovakia during a routine training flight. The pilot died on the scene and the remaining two crew members sustained major injuries and were hospitalized.[178]

During the Russian intervention on the Syrian Civil War. Two Russian Mi-8AMTsh helicopters were sent to find and recover the pilots from the crash site of a Su-24M bomber downed. One of the helicopters was damaged by small-arms fire from Syrian Turkmen Brigade militants, resulting in the death of a naval infantryman, and was forced to make an emergency landing.[179]

On 27 March 2016, a Mi-17 of the Algerian Air Force crashed in Southern Algeria causing the death of 12 military personnel and two injured.[180]

On 4 August 2016, A Pakistani Mi-17 transport helicopter belonging to the Punjab government en route to Russia for repair, crashed in Logar Province, Afghanistan. The six people on board were reportedly taken as hostage by Taliban.[181] The crew and occupants of the Mi-17 were released after ten days through an inter-tribe exchange at Pakistan-Afghan border. The crew consisted of five Pakistanis and one Russian.[182]

On 27 November 2016, an Iranian Mi-17 transport helicopter belonging to the IRGC dispatched to an oil rig located 12 miles off the coast of Amirabad in the northern province of Mazandaran, crashed in the Caspian Sea. All five people on board died.[citation needed]

On 31 December 2016, a Venezuelan Mi-17 transport helicopter belonging to the Venezuelan Army covering the route SVPA – SVLE crashed in the Amazonas State.[183][184]

On 29 May 2017 a Mi-17 transport helicopter belonging to the Sri Lanka Air Force which was engaged in flood relief operations was forced to land with extensive damage in Baddegama, and none of the crew members injured.[185][186]

On 6 October 2017 an Indian Air Force Mi-17V-5 helicopter crashed in Arunachal Pradesh killing 7 on board.[187]

Bulgarian military helicopter Mi-17 during a firefighting mission. The same in the photo crashed at Plovdiv Airport, Bulgaria on 11 June 2018.[188]

On 3 January 2018: A Mil Mi-17 helicopter of Bangladesh Air Force crashed in Sreemangal whilst carrying Kuwaiti delegates. The Kuwaiti delegates have been identified as Kuwait Armed Forces Chief of Staff Lt Gen Mohammad Al-Khuder and Kuwait Naval Forces Commander Maj Gen Khalid Mahmud Abdullah.Everyone were rescued alive.[189][190][191]

On 3 April 2018, an Mi-17 transport helicopter of the Indian Air Force crashed in Kedarnath. All the people onboard survived. Indian Air Force has ordered an inquiry into the crash.[192]

On 11 June 2018, a Mi-17 of the Bulgarian Air Force crashed at Plovdiv Airport, Bulgaria, killing two on board.[188]

On 27 February 2019, a Mi-17 of the Indian Air Force crashed in Budgam, Jammu and Kashmir, killing six on board and one civilian on the ground. Locals on the ground claim that they had heard a huge explosion and saw the helicopter break into two parts before crash.[193] Later investigation have shown that the helicopter was shot down as result of friendly fire when a SPYDER Indian air defense system fired a missile which hit Mi-17 helicopter, killing everyone aboard.[194]

On 13 May 2019, a People's Liberation Army Mi-171 transport belonging to the Tibet Military District crashed in Qinling in Shaanxi Province, killing 6 crew.[195]

On 8 January 2020, an Afghan National Army Mi-17 crashed shortly after takeoff in Gardiz, Paktia province. It was later destroyed on the ground by Afghan Security forces.[196]

On 11 February 2020, a Syrian Air Force Mi-17 utility helicopter was shot-down by Turkish-backed rebel forces using an American designed MANPADS[197] over Al-Nayrab, killing everyone aboard.[198][199] A second Mi-17 of the Syrian Army was shot down in Idlib under similar circumstances, killing all crew, on 14 February 2020.[200]

On 6 March 2020, a Myanmar Air Force Mi-17 Crashed shortly after take-off near Kaungkha Village, Kutkai Township.[201]

On 6 June 2020, an Indonesian Army Mi-17 helicopter crashed in Kendal Regency, killing 4 on board and 5 personnels survived.[202]

On 7 July 2020, a Peruvian Air Force Mi-17-1V crashed in a river in the Amazonas. Seven occupants died in the crash, four crew members and three civilian passengers.[203]

On 13 October 2020, a pair of Afghan National Army Air Corps Mi-17s collided with one another in mid-air in the Nawa-i-Barakzayi district, Helmand province.[204] 9 were killed.[205]

On 10 November 2020, an Afghan National Army Air Corps crashed upon take-off at Hisarak district, Nangarhar province.[206]

On 18 March 2021, a Mi-17 helicopter of the Afghan Army was shot down by a local anti-taliban militia led by ethnic warlord Abdul Ghani Alipur[207][208] in the Behsud district of Maidan Wardak. Nine members of the Afghan security forces died in the incident.[209] Two days later a video appeared, showing the helicopter being hit while increasing altitude just after unloading troops and cargo. A missile hits the helicopter, clipping the tail boom, with the helicopter spinning out of control and crashing. The missile was claimed to be a "laser-guided weapon".[210]

On June 24, 2021, a Kenyan military aircraft identified as the Mil Mi-17 crashed in Kajiado county and went up in flames.[211][212]

On August 25, 2021, a Mi-17 of the Mexican Navy crashed in Agua Blanca de Iturbide. Four people injured were reported.[213]

On 30 November 2021, a Mi-17 of the State Border Service of Azerbaijan crashed in Khizi District causing the death of 14 military personnel and 2 injured.[214]

On 8 December 2021, at 12:05 IST, an Indian Air Force Mi-17V-5 carrying a total of 1 civilian, Madhulika Rawat, and 13 defence personnel including Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat, crashed near Coonoor, Tamil Nadu while flying towards Wellington from Sulur Air Force Station.[215] Of those onboard, 13 including General Bipin Rawat and his spouse were killed.[216]
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Off these ~41 crashes, there were quite a few IAF crashes.
What did the Court of Inquiry show up?

I think it's time to seek real answers.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... r-7662415/
The Mi-17V5 helicopter that crashed Wednesday had flown more than 26 hours without a snag after it was last serviced, according to sources. It belonged to the 109 Helicopter Unit based at the Sulur air base near Coimbatore.

No system malfunction or snag was reported in the last 2-3 sorties of this particular helicopter, sources said, adding “its history was clear, and there had been no technical failure”.

The Mi-17V5 is considered one of the “safest” and “most modern” military transport helicopters, a retired IAF officer said. “One must wait for the detailed investigation, but the past record of the helicopter model shows it is impeccable and 100% reliable.”

As per IAF protocol, prior to any VIP flights, the aircraft undergoes a three-stage mechanical check, following which access to the aircraft is sealed.

“To my mind, it must have been a freak accident because with a helicopter, even if both the engines fail, it is possible to land in a paddy field somewhere given the right conditions,” the retired officer said.

The Mi-17 V5 is a “forgiving” aircraft — it is very sturdy and robust, and can fly in extreme circumstances. “The most likely reason for the crash could be foggy weather which reduced visibility… Looking at the disintegration pattern, it appears, the chopper probably hit a tree trunk or its rotor got entangled in overhead cables,” a source said.

The Indian government had awarded a contract to the Russian manufacturers for 80 Mi-17V5 helicopters in 2008 at a cost of USD 1.3 billion. While the first of these were delivered to India in 2013, the final batch arrived in 2018.

The helicopter has many variants, including a 36-seater for carrying troops, for cargo transport and a version with an emergency flotation system. It is operated by a three-member crew — a pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer.

The single-rotor helicopter can gain a maximum speed of 250 km per hour and a cruise speed of 230 km per hour. While its main fuel tanks’ range is 675 km, with two auxiliary fuel tanks it can fly for 1,180 km. It can carry a maximum payload of 4,000 kg.

The IAF has a repair and overhaul facility for the Mi-17V5 helicopters in Chandigarh. The crash Wednesday was the fifth of this variant in the last nine years.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

chetak or anyone,
Can you tell us what the three-stage mechanical checks are before VIP flights?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Why are they saying only 5 crashes when BRF database records 21 crashes?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Datab ... d=78&qt=TY
tandav
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by tandav »

As per this eyewitness report the helicopter burst into flames *before* crashing.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/general ... er-2643691
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2021/page1 ... years.html
Govt likely to order thorough tech review of Russian copters

The Russian-made Mi-17 V5 which crashed on Wednesday killing CDS Bipin Rawat and 12 others is seen as a sturdy machine that is meant to fly in the combat zone and has a capacity of 20 passengers.

However, at least five crashes involving the Mi-17 helicopter have taken place in as many years.

Known as the warhorse among the armed forces, this helicopter can also carry heavy load, including tanks and fly at a height of nearly 5,000 metre. At present, the IAF has nearly 140 such helicopters. The IAF started them inducting into service in 2012. The Government is likely to order a thorough technical review of the entire fleet, sources said.

The frequent crash of Mi-17V5 helicopter has baffled the experts since it is an advanced military transport helicopter. Manufactured by Russian Helicopters’ subsidiary Kazan, the helicopter has onboard weather radar and is equipped with the latest generation of night vision devices.

It also has the new PKV-8 autopilot system and a KNEI-8 avionics suite. It can carry a maximum take-off weight of 13,000 kg and maximum payload weight of 4,000 kg and fly at a speed of 250 km per hour.

India had in 2008 signed a deal with Russia to induct 80 Mi-17V5 medium-lift helicopters for strengthening its fleet for humanitarian and disaster relief missions and transport operations.

The contract was later expanded for the delivery of 151 Mi-17V5 helicopters. The first batch of these helicopters came to India in September 2011. In February 2012, the IAF had formally Mi-17V5 helicopters from Russia to enhance its operational capabilities, including carrying troops and cargo to high altitude areas. The helicopter is fitted with a self-defence system against heat seeker missiles, heavily-armoured cockpit, vital systems, and components.

The Mi-17V-5 military transport helicopter is designed to carry personnel, cargo, and equipment inside the cargo cabin or on an external sling, drop tactical air assault forces and reconnaissance and sabotage groups, destroy ground targets and carry the wounded, they said.

The helicopter is fitted with advanced TV3-117VM engines. It is the most technically advanced helicopter of the Mi-8/17 family of helicopters and incorporates the best engineering solutions from previous generations of helicopters.
Okay, only five crashes since 2012. What did the COI reveal? How through were they?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Gagan »

ramana wrote:
Gagan will post cutaway of Mil-17. Sadly it's in Russian
Image
Here it is Ramana ji
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

So its stringer and skin construction.
Fuel tank is close to the fuselage.
And the tail rotor drive is in the boom.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by nits »

Even in these times Global Times (china) tweets are in utterly bad taste; not that we expect something good from them. But shows how Rutheless our enemy is:

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 23554?s=20
The death of India’s defense chief in a chopper crash on Wed. not only exposed the Indian military’s lack of discipline and combat preparedness, but also dealt a heavy blow to the country’s military modernization: Chinese experts

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 69155?s=20
#Opinion: Rawat’s helicopter crash was unfortunate. But @Chellaney took advantage of this misfortune to spin his conspiracy theory. He made no contribution to India, but has created too much hatred. He has blood of Indian troops on his hands.
https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 90304?s=20
One of the vehicles carrying the remains of India's Chief of Defense Staff Bipin Rawat & 12 others who died in a helicopter crash on Wed had an accident this afternoon when driving to Coimbatore. No casualties were reported. General Rawat's funeral will be held Fri in Delhi.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Neilz »

After reading last few posts, I am wondering if any of learned member could through some technical light on my question below

1. This copter can fly at 5K meter. Assuming that only the personnel onboard, flying near to this height was possible.
2. Landing site was about 2 km away.
3. The video shows that copter was at treetop height.
4. Elevation of Nilgiri range at that particular spot looks to be well below 5K meter, so a greater margin was a possibility.

Question is, if the above information / assumption are correct, then could be the possible technical reason to fly at that treetop height ?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by yensoy »

Nilgiri range is very much below 5000 meter. I think you are confusing meter and feet. Highest elevation in peninsular India is just below 2700m.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Neilz »

yensoy wrote:I think you are confusing meter and feet.
In pioneer article posted above mention
and fly at a height of nearly 5,000 metre.
In google search several link saying flight ceiling is about 6000m.

As you also estimated that possible elevation of Nilgiri range is way below that flight ceiling, so the question pops up in my head that what compels to fly low with so much or margin available.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ldev »

Was this flight under VFR or IFR? And does the helicopter landing area at the Golf Course at DSS, Wellington have a radio beacon to enable an IFR approach?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rishi_Tri »

A few ppl rejoicing at demise of CDS, Gen Bipin Lakshman Singh Rawat:

1. Lt Gen HS Panag - tweeted RIP - when Gen was fighting for his life.

2. Col Baljit Bakshi(Rtd) - tweeted - Karma has its own way of dealing with people.

3. Wing Commander Anuma Acharya - tweeted - Khel Khatm, Khel Khatm.

4. Col Ajai Shukla - tweeted - Yummy and picture of cake.

5. Lt Colonel Anil Duhoon - tweeted - Karma always hits back.

6. Mona Ambegaokar (communist??) - tweeted - To mourn a Nazi.

Investigate these people and take necessary action.

The tweets at -

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... As7og&s=08
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by SNaik »

The accident itself reminds somewhat of the crash of Polish president's Tu-154 at Smolensk some years ago. Low clouds and fog at the landing site, plane hits a tree on approach, cartwheels and disintegrates. The available video shows the helicopter flying at around 50m and 100 knots and entering a thick fog bank. Looks like the pilot continued descent and approach to the landing site as if in visual landing mode. Perhaps the fog bank was hiding the tree which could have been avoided having a visual.
Thakur_B
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Thakur_B »

What Gen. Panag (retd.) did was not appropriate, i.e, breaking the news before official channels, however the news of demise had already broken out of unofficial channels by that time.
Lisa
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Lisa »

Polite question, do these ex-servicemen attend Offices Mess? Personally, if they do that entry must be denied.

Rishi_Tri wrote:A few ppl rejoicing at demise of CDS, Gen Bipin Lakshman Singh Rawat:

1. Lt Gen HS Panag - tweeted RIP - when Gen was fighting for his life.

2. Col Baljit Bakshi(Rtd) - tweeted - Karma has its own way of dealing with people.

3. Wing Commander Anuma Acharya - tweeted - Khel Khatm, Khel Khatm.

4. Col Ajai Shukla - tweeted - Yummy and picture of cake.

5. Lt Colonel Anil Duhoon - tweeted - Karma always hits back.

6. Mona Ambegaokar (communist??) - tweeted - To mourn a Nazi.

Investigate these people and take necessary action.

The tweets at -

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... As7og&s=08
Hari Nair
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Hari Nair »

ramana wrote:chetak or anyone,
Can you tell us what the three-stage mechanical checks are before VIP flights?
Ramana Saab,
I see that this thread has suddenly gained traction.
Various members are suggesting their points-of-view.

However, may I suggest we focus on the relevant points:
• The IAF has a standardised maintenance protocol for VIP flights and a more stringent one for VVIP flights. The CDS as I understand, is a VIP. Maintenance protocol calls for additional checks (may include an out-of-turn servicing), checks on life remaining of components such as engines, transmission, etc. This Mi-17V5 would definitely have undergone those checks and been cleared as such.

• VIP flights are piloted by crew of minimum specified qualifications. In this case, it was the CO along with a Sqn Ldr, who I assume would also have had adequate experience.

• These flights were earlier undertaken by Mi-8s of the same sqn. The Mi-17V5s operated by the sqn these days has excess power and thrust margins for such a mission. It’s the same type operated on the Siachen Glacier.

• The flight from Sulur to Wellington is a short 20-25 min.

On 08 Dec (day before yesterday) – I remember flying under blue skies over Bangalore. There was no weather system reported over entire south peninsular India. We can safely assume that Sulur, the launch base also reported fair to fine weather at 1145 h, the approx time of take-off.

• The flight requires a climb from about 1200 ft elevation of launch base to the helipad at Wellington Gymkhana Club (WGC) Golf course helipad, elevation 5800 ft.

Notwithstanding the blue skies prevailing generally over the south peninsula, photos and videos of the crash site (near Kettary Tea Estate) appeared to show fog. Some eyewitnesses reported “mist”. Some social media remarks by locals near Coonoor appear to report fog throughout that day.

This is nothing unusual – the Nilgiris mountain complex rears up above the surrounding low land and has elevations generally in the region of 5000 – 6000 ft, with Dodabeta peak at 8600 ft. it is usual for the mountain complex to have its own unique mini-weather, different from the low lands below. In this case, it appears that despite sunny skies, there were low clouds on ground near Coonoor (manifesting as fog). The extent of low clouding (whether it covered the entire Nilgiris complex or was it in patches) is not clearly known.

• I have personally not landed at the WGC helipad. I asked a couple of my colleagues who used to fly Mi-8s and both said that the approach and landing is a not exactly easy. There is usually a sudden change of weather conditions at the Nilgiris. The helicopter has to cross a couple of ridge lines, there is no clearly demarcated valley leading up to the WGC helipad. Also, the final approach path is curved with the WGC in a bowl-like depression. The approach and landing is visual. Tall trees surround at least one side of the helipad. The dimension of the helipad is very large and the entire length of the 1000 ft golf course is effectively available to the pilot to land the helicopter.

• The pics of the crash site and name as reported is Kettary Tea Estate. This appears to be between 5200-5400 ft, which is about 300-500 ft below the Lower Coonoor ridge line, that is generally at 5700 ft elevation. The pics of the crash site appear to indicate the pilot may have perhaps, elected to attempt flying keeping ground in contact, and below the clouds flying up the narrow rivulet leading up to Lower Coonoor town.

• The video recording the last 20 s of flight (taken by Joe and Naseer), if authentic, appears to show the V5 in and out of clouds. The sound track of the video also includes an unusual sound followed by sudden slowing of rotor noise and silence.

• Pics of the crash site and an eyewitness account appears to indicate the V5 hit a fairly large tree just at the lower perimeter of the tea estate.

• These accounts appear to indicate Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT) as the potential primary cause. Which means the V5 probably entered dense clouds and impacted the rising terrain. Of course, the IAF Court of Inquiry with all its resources at its disposal will determine the primary and other associated causes.

• Air Mshl Manavendra Singh, heading the CoI is a sharp and meticulous Air Officer. Very little will escape his attention and I am sure the root causes will be brought out. A long time back we flew together in the NorthEast and even back then he was always a meticulous aviator and a fine officer.
Last edited by Hari Nair on 10 Dec 2021 20:56, edited 6 times in total.
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