Military Flight Safety

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RajaRudra
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by RajaRudra »

Its ok friends. Cool down.

Its scarry to see this thread coming on top. That too after seeing a Dornier going on loop around the HAL airport many, many times :D .
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Deleted
Last edited by ks_sachin on 22 Mar 2023 03:19, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Guys, please chill before the mods step in.

May I humbly suggest that you delete your back and forth on this?

Your co-operation in this matter is greatly appreciated.
KSingh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by KSingh »

Cheetah crash, ALH-MK.3MR ditching and Su30 being caught in a arrestor barrier (brake/hydraulic failure?) within the same week, which one of these resulted in a fleet wide grounding?
https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... L0BRyMQdjg

Whenever there’s an issue for IDDM products the knives always seem to be out and especially sharp, sadly the most vocal critics are those that used to wear uniforms
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Done Admiral.
Sometimes better judgement eludes me!!
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

KSingh wrote:Cheetah crash, ALH-MK.3MR ditching and Su30 being caught in a arrestor barrier (brake/hydraulic failure?) within the same week, which one of these resulted in a fleet wide grounding?
https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... L0BRyMQdjg

Whenever there’s an issue for IDDM products the knives always seem to be out and especially sharp, sadly the most vocal critics are those that used to wear uniforms
100%.
basant
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by basant »

ALH Dhruv Mark 3 helicopter crashes at Kochi
26 Mar 2023, 04:04 PM IST
An Indian Coast Guard helicopter, the ALH Dhruv Mark 3, crashed after making a forced landing during a test flight in Kochi on Friday. The cause of the crash is unknown at this time. The ICG is investigating the incident and the runway remains closed for further operations.

The chopper was at around 25 feet in height when it had to make a forced landing.
All crew are safe.

Image
AkshaySG
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by AkshaySG »

I thought the fleet was grounded after the Navy crash?
Atmavik
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Atmavik »

https://mobile.twitter.com/defencealert ... 4271896576

Video of the cg chopper crash . It was a testing flight from the grounded fleet
Atmavik
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Atmavik »

https://twitter.com/realkaypius/status/ ... 2Jp8ItAAAA

Early days, but looks like a loss of control in cyclic circuit. I can go so far as to say that in both IN-709 & CG-855, the crew saved the day.

A few 100 ft higher & this would've ended in tragedy
Pratyush
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Pratyush »

Seeing the video. It doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the machine.

It appears to be a case of the aircraft entering vortex ring state.

The low altitude of the aircraft compounding the matter.

Such situations are recoverable if the aircraft is at sufficient altitude.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Shiv has created a Twitter thread on the Kochi ALH crash.

https://twitter.com/shiv_cybersurg/stat ... 68096?s=20
Facts are HAl had inspected the control rods which were suspected of causing the previous crashes and certified the helicopter to Coast Guard.
The helicopter developed loss of rotor control during its first flight.

Image
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Two tweets that describe the action taken after the fleet was gorunded:

https://twitter.com/PrasadSatya10/statu ... 81667?s=20

Let me make another effort
*Fleet grounded for checks on control system before release for flight.
* Checks may require the inspection of all system components/assemblies after some disassembly, including control rod joints/ends bearings.
and

https://twitter.com/PrasadSatya10/statu ... 33474?s=20

* No abnormality discovered and system restored to assembled state.
*System functional checks are done to check the functionality, including contol rigging.
* Heptr cleared for airtest. Crew unable to control hept during hovering ?
No system behaves this ?
My response to that tweet
Satya garu, IF all that was done and yet problem persists, it could be a systemic issue of the control rods. Did they check lot numbers of the control rods?
I once came across an issue where the induction furnace lining scabbed and got into the melt. It took a long time to find.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

I think its a technical issue and should be discussed rationally.

Any bokwas will lead to banning.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Jay »

One noticeable thing amongst all these recent crashes is number of fatalities is significantly low if the machine is Dhruv. It speaks to the crashworthiness built into the system that kept many of the pilots alive. Hats off to the team!
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the US military, technology, arms, tactics thread.
Manish_P wrote:No calls for fully independent board inquiry ? 8)
No Sir. That yardstick is only for local maal.

After the recent CG crash of HAL Dhruv (and even the Navy Dhruv crash), some ex-servicemen had knives out asking for fully independent board inquiry into the back-to-back HAL Dhruv crashes. Yet when Sea Kings, Kamovs and other phoren helicopters crashed, not a peep would come out from these same gentlemen. I have not heard anything about "fully independent board inquiry" over the repeated MiG-29K/KUB crashes either.

Hiding behind excuses of lives are at stake, professional assessment and this from a retired Admiral....

https://twitter.com/sudhirpillai__/stat ... 99904?s=20 ---> As FONA & Class Authority for Naval Aviation till about 2012 did not clear ALH LSP for VIP transport. Negative list does gross harm to current and medium term military readiness. The naval 60 @indiannavy ALH order must be CANCELED & SP route must get revived.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

By the way, the above tweet is dated 26 March 2023. The same day the CG HAL Dhruv Mk3 crashed.

On the VERY same day that the HAL Dhruv Mk3 crashes, out come the knives to cancel the upcoming HAL Dhruv order for the Navy and purchase a foreign helicopter, through the strategic partnership route. The Board of Inquiry was not even set up on that day, to determine the cause of the crash...but already the voices for justifying imports are out.

* When MH-60R crashes in Indian Navy service, will the same yardstick hold? At that stage, it will be to import more of the same.

* Why did Air HQ want to (till the Russian-Ukraine conflict started) induct 12 additional Su-30MKIs to make up for the attrition losses of the Rambha in 2+ decades of service?

When imports crash, purchase more of the same.

When local maal crashes, cancel upcoming orders and do screwdrivergiri on phoren maal via SP route.

Atmanirbhar Bharat Ki Jai Ho!
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:X-Post from the US military, technology, arms, tactics thread.
Manish_P wrote:No calls for fully independent board inquiry ? 8)
No Sir. That yardstick is only for local maal.
...
Yes sir I was alluding to that.

PS - posts in this thread kind of raises breathing rate...

Can the above post of the US heli collision also be moved to the US mil thread
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote:Can the above post of the US heli collision also be moved to the US mil thread
Moved Sirjee.
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:By the way, the above tweet is dated 26 March 2023. The same day the CG HAL Dhruv Mk3 crashed.

On the VERY same day that the HAL Dhruv Mk3 crashes, out come the knives to cancel the upcoming HAL Dhruv order for the Navy and purchase a foreign helicopter, through the strategic partnership route. The Board of Inquiry was not even set up on that day, to determine the cause of the crash...but already the voices for justifying imports are out.

* When MH-60R crashes in Indian Navy service, will the same yardstick hold? At that stage, it will be to import more of the same.

* Why did Air HQ want to (till the Russian-Ukraine conflict started) induct 12 additional Su-30MKIs to make up for the attrition losses of the Rambha in 2+ decades of service?

When imports crash, purchase more of the same.

When local maal crashes, cancel upcoming orders and do screwdrivergiri on phoren maal via SP route.

Atmanirbhar Bharat Ki Jai Ho!
is there a south India branch of the chandigarh lobby...
SSridhar
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by SSridhar »

Rakesh wrote:When local maal crashes, cancel upcoming orders and do screwdrivergiri on phoren maal via SP route.
Really very sad & pathetic
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

SSridhar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:When local maal crashes, cancel upcoming orders and do screwdrivergiri on phoren maal via SP route.
Really very sad & pathetic

This is the Modi govt.

Nothing like this will happen and nor will they allow it to happen.

any joker can investigate, find whatever. They will fix it, test and clear it.

How many widows protested the MiG-21 issues. Did it change the price of potatoes in the market... Many chiefs, many def ministers and many def secys ..... and many body bags...

The sound of a lone bugler playing the Last Post has become one of the most distinctive and poignant sounds in the world. Once heard, never forgotten...

The IAF and the GoI, at the end of the day, did exactly what they had to do. Ditto in this case, rinse and repeat.

A large and new aircraft factory for helicopters has not been built just so some politicos and their naukar/chakar unwashed retired goon(s) can wet his/their beak(s).

Good or bad, the ALH will continue in service, and the hungry, and forsaken dogs will continue to bark at the remorselessly passing caravan.

There is very much more at stake here than just the ALH and many posters here know it better than me, the geo political and geo economic fallout that has the potential to force us back many years while simultaneously and seriously degrading our hard fought and hard won current status.

In the first place, there was never any need to ground the entire fleet. Security and logistics, specially in the border areas may have been affected due to reduced airlift capabilities as would the ICG patrols

Having said that, they need to fix it quickly.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Chetak, They keep bringing up a QC issue with control rod failure in ALH. Do you know anything?

Then they claim material change was suggested.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Chetak, They keep bringing up a QC issue with control rod failure in ALH. Do you know anything?

Then they claim material change was suggested.
been looking myself, saar.

nothing so far.

if one hears anything, will update
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Is there a cut-away drawing of ALH in Flight magazine etc?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

COI on a BSF Helicopter accident in 2012

http://164.100.60.133/accident/reports/VT-BSN.pdf
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Page 34/59. Collective control system.

Page 38 Simulation to replicate accident.

And the analysis paragraphs.

Page 41. Additional information.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

I think its best to wait for COI analysis.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:X-Post from the US military, technology, arms, tactics thread.
Manish_P wrote:No calls for fully independent board inquiry ? 8)
No Sir. That yardstick is only for local maal.

After the recent CG crash of HAL Dhruv (and even the Navy Dhruv crash), some ex-servicemen had knives out asking for fully independent board inquiry into the back-to-back HAL Dhruv crashes. Yet when Sea Kings, Kamovs and other phoren helicopters crashed, not a peep would come out from these same gentlemen. I have not heard anything about "fully independent board inquiry" over the repeated MiG-29K/KUB crashes either.

Hiding behind excuses of lives are at stake, professional assessment and this from a retired Admiral....

https://twitter.com/sudhirpillai__/stat ... 99904?s=20 ---> As FONA & Class Authority for Naval Aviation till about 2012 did not clear ALH LSP for VIP transport. Negative list does gross harm to current and medium term military readiness. The naval 60 @indiannavy ALH order must be CANCELED & SP route must get revived.
The first ditching of a Naval ALH in >15 years of its service with the IN and within hours this is the reaction.

ALH is by FAR the most numerous rotary wing platform in india, in absolute numbers losses will be relatively high but in 2023 how many airframes have actually been lost as the type approaches (may have recently surpassed) 500,000 fleet hours before

No one has said a full investigation should not be done- that absolutely is the way to improve the product and ensure lives are protected going forward but it’s the selective outrage that is disturbing and the most eyebrow raising and the fact is the noise is only ever in one direction (veterans who haven’t touched an ALH in the last 15 years and their opinions were formed by hand built ALH MK.1 LSP from the 2000s). We never hear from HAL’s designers, test pilots or even contemporary users flying the MK.3.

Calling for the ALH UHM AON to be scrapped without the facts even emerging depressingly shows what IDDM is up against from the very people that need to champion it.

No ALH=No LCH=No LUH=No IMRH, then that? $30bn+ on the >1000 helos the Indian armed forces need over the next 15-20 years going to foreign OEMs?

All I can say is it’s going to be a hard day when the first LCA is inevitably lost, let’s hope it occurs after additional orders over 123 have been placed. Any excuse to curtail additional ALH and LCA orders will be taken that’s for certain. Of course ALH issues is now likely to impact any future orders of its derivatives (LCH/LUH) also
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Prem Kumar »

Ex-CNS Adm Arun Prakash is getting all upset by a critique by a Tweeple about many veterans not being onboard with Atmanirbhar

https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/16 ... 9894797313

Meanwhile, an article by Cmdr Yashodhan Marathe about ALH crashes and the way forward. Some of his critique about HAL's sarkari-job mentality rings true. This is a long-standing illness in our DPSUs and has not disappeared overnight.

However, the call to re-badge screwdrivergiri as Atmanirbhar is cringe-worthy. This is precisely what HM Rajnath Singh warned against!

Overall, a COI is clearly necessary and changes need to be made, including the work attitude of HAL. But many veterans are unable to shed their baggage and realize that we are living in a new India. They don't share a vision of us becoming a superpower. Its good that they are retired

https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... s-3031276/
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by KSingh »

This latest campaign against ALH is going beyond the pale, the narratives certain ex-service personnel are deploying all of a sudden are disingenuous to the extreme. The civil/offshore subject is such a red herring I don’t even know where to start on it, also there’s a huge difference between being a capable machine and being commercially viable. Are there even sufficient pilots and engineers rated on the ALH in the civil world to cater to this demand ?

https://twitter.com/bahadurmanmohan/sta ... L0BRyMQdjg

All of a sudden ALH being used for all civil offshore Ops is the yardstick by which ALH has to prove itself. Since when was ALH designed for this as a primary mission? It’s a military machine designed from the ground up for this mission and that too primarily for the extreme high altitudes

I also notice that much of the gripes against ALH are coming from naval aviators and are influenced by experiences with LSP MK.1 airframes over 15 years ago.
basant
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by basant »

Really wish hnair sir shared his views on this topic.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Some veterans are molly-coddled and just not living in reality. After spending nearly four decades in service, they expect the same obsequious behaviour post retirement in civilian life. When they don't get it, they lash out. See this example (second tweet below) from a gentleman who retired as an Air Vice Marshal from the IAF.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 48865?s=20 ---> 3. The hub & transmission design choices did not emerge out of thin air. They were not even made by HAL! They're esoteric because the requirements are. Have the high altitude performance and G requirements been relaxed that we can go back to a clean-sheet conventional design?

Tweet below is in response to IR's tweet above...

https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... 26176?s=20 ---> Pardon my saying so -- please stop advertising your ignorance of ALH design and aerodynamics. You are propagating mi/disinformation amongst the gullible.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The eagerness to call for an independent inquiry into the back-to-back crashes of the HAL Dhruv Mk3 from him and others, seriously put into question their objectiveness. Are they looking for an inquiry to find the root cause of the problem & resolve that problem OR is the purpose of the inquiry to cancel further HAL Dhruv orders? One retired Admiral (whose tweet I posted above) had the gall and temerity to ask for cancellation of further orders on the day of the Coast Guard HAL Dhruv crash. Whatever happened to waiting for the Board of Inquiry to come out and address the reason for the crash?

* When it is taxpayers money, does the Indian citizenry not have the right to ask if their money is being spent appropriately?

* When questions are raised (i.e. IR's tweet above), is it appropriate for veterans to behave in this manner?

This holier-than-thou attitude that some of these veterans are showing is a dis-service to the nation. Shame. If this is the attitude, please continue to import. Cancel everything - Tejas, AMCA, Prachand, LUH, Dhruv. Stop fooling the Indian citizen and just please import.

https://twitter.com/JamesBondMI6GB/stat ... 17184?s=20 ---> If Taxpayers questioning where their tax money is actually going is questioning patriotism, then so be it.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

:lol:
https://twitter.com/sudhirpillai__/stat ... 99904?s=20 ---> As FONA & Class Authority for Naval Aviation till about 2012 did not clear ALH LSP for VIP transport. Negative list does gross harm to current and medium term military readiness. The naval 60 @indiannavy ALH order must be CANCELED & SP route must get revived.
https://twitter.com/JamesBondMI6GB/stat ... 37351?s=20 ---> The order for 60 Naval ALH must be cancelled despite it being superior to each and every foreign helicopter in the 111 NUH competition under the SP route, so that we can get the free pass in inducting AS565 Panther which is being retired by militaries all across the world.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

sticking my neck out here..

Someone had posted some blog link to the ALH story.

That does not even cover half of what actually happened. It was a polite, politically correct and sanitized tale told well.

The MBB issue goes much further back and and there was some dirty work at the crossroads, (Indians at Indian cross roads, one might add), along with corporate greed, flat out flawed ambition, the unwarranted clawing for honors and accolades, and also sadly, incompetence at many levels.

these factors affected the ALH, pretty much across the board, from design to test flights....

A similar story also played out some ways down the road, in another vital project, with which the system is still struggling, even today... with no solution in sight

the former IN chief knows the details but he cannot, will not say and admittedly, the guy can be a bit of a gas bag, but he certainly knows his onions

A lot of the initial funding for the ALH project came from the IN and that speaks volumes about what was expected and agreed.

A helo lifting off from / landing on a rolling, pitching, and yawing deck along with the other three axes in active play is a thankless, motherless, and joyless job that has to be done. And, if that were to happen at night, then.....

the rest follows from that simple objective and is not a situation that obtains in other services, with perhaps, the exception of the ICG but with very limited similarities.

asking for a reliable platform is not a crime.

The IN well knows the pitfalls and travails of using foreign maal and they have already paid a horrendous price for it and would very much prefer to go the Indian route.

It is also the first service that willingly took to the indigenization process literally like a duck to water and to a large extant, succeeded across the board
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

Chetak, as always...great post. Thank You.

Some good news ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5990&p=2585171#p2585171
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:Chetak, as always...great post. Thank You.

Some good news ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5990&p=2585171#p2585171
my neck, saar

can it assume its normal retracted position :)
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by basant »

This is something I liked that was posted by Kartik A on Twitter. I hope I got all the posts in sequence as some were not numbered.
Kartik A @kartachar

Lets look into the kind of practices the @IndiannavyMedia can do when it comes to importing helicopters. This thread will give details based on the extremely old & used UH-3H Sea Kings imported with INS Jalashwa, 6 of which were bought for Rs 182.14 Cr.

The UH-3Hs were acquired for utility purpose to be used on­board the Landing Platform Dock (LPD), INS Jalashwa, also acquired from the US Navy. The helicopters were received in September 2007, embarked on INS Jalashwa’s maiden trip to India.

Audit by CAG revealed that the UH-3Hs procured were life ­expired & had many defects which would ultimately compromise operational effectiveness. The helis were manufactured between Jan 1961 & July 1965 & were decommissioned by the US Navy in 2005.

They joined the IN on extended life! The joint visual inspection of the helis as well as the facilities carried out by an IN team in May 2006 reported that the overall condition of the helicopters was good enough to meet the requirements of IN for the next 10 years

Citing time constraints, only 2 out of 6 UH-3H were subjected to minimum strip condition for inspection in the US. Flight eval of all 6 heli was not carried out in the US by IN before acceptance as these were in fully preserved state & had to be regenerated prior to flight eval

The actual flight eval of the UH­3H heli was carried out on ANOTHER helicopter of the US Navy of similar make, type & vintage. These helicopters were bought in ‘as is where is’ condition with no guarantee of supportability & replacement of defective rotables due to obsolescence.

Also, the US Govt would not be responsible for functioning of any ‘on board’ systems or equipment. These UH-3Hs were delivered with many defects including 12 Category A defects resulting in non­availability of the helis leading to delay in training & ops of the squadron.

And shockingly, the UH-3Hs were devoid of any type of weather/surface surveillance radar, the most important sensor of a utility helicopter during its SAR operations. But the IN was confident enough to put it's crews on the 40 year old UH-3Hs with so many defects.

+
Who is @BahadurManmohan to refute it? This is on record with the CAG. He won’t know anything about it anyway since his attention has always been only on flaws in indigenous equipment.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Chetak
About the 3.5m envelope for the blade folding, I guess its based on a ship borne hanger.

How many ships have this narrow hanger?

Are these older ships?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Ramana all IN ships have that requirement as that number comes from the ship with the tighest tolerances. If a helo can accomodate the smallest space requirements then it aids interoperability.
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