Military Flight Safety

[ramana]

Human/Psychological factors affecting crew performance

An attitude to complete the task especially when carrying VIPs against odds which one would not do in normal circumstances

Pressuring the Captain of the aircraft to get on with it as the VIP has an important schedule to keep.

Fear of being berated by Arm chair seniors for not completing the task with ones high qualifications and experience

This is another fault tree branch being looked I hope.

[Cyrano]

https://twitter.com/ajaykraina/status/1 ... 11522?s=20 --->

An update, as received...
Prayers and faith can move mountains, is what I truly believe.
Group Captain Varun is doing much better now. He has been started on some solid food and his body has tolerated it.
Today they begin skin grafting.
Lets keep him in prayers!

Excellent news about Grp Cpt Varun ! His testimony will help the crash investigation immensely, in due course of time of course ! His full recovery is paramount now.

[chetak]

Human/Psychological factors affecting crew performance

An attitude to complete the task especially when carrying VIPs against odds which one would not do in normal circumstances

Pressuring the Captain of the aircraft to get on with it as the VIP has an important schedule to keep.

Fear of being berated by Arm chair seniors for not completing the task with ones high qualifications and experience

This is another fault tree branch being looked I hope.

Among the very first things to merit close attention, saar

[fanne]

Also, some approaches that Hari Nair sir said - Some to do with GPS way point and such. It looks like we are still following a few decades-old procedures.

[Hari Nair]

Don't think this was posted ...
IAF Mi-17V5 Helicopter Crash: What is HTAWS and Why It is Need of the Hour

India has lost many soldiers like General Bipin Rawat to Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT) crashes. HTAWS could be the panacea for this persisting problem.
GROUP CAPT MJ AUGUSTINE VINOD VSM (RETD)

Helicopter Terrain Awareness and Warning Systems (HTAWS)
The West has made Helicopter Terrain Awareness and Warning Systems (HTAWS) mandatory for helicopter emergency medical services (HEMS) and offshore operations flights...

Is HTAWS the Need of the Hour?
HTAWS would provide the following, which would reduce cases of CFIT in helicopter ...

Terrain warning with audio and visual alerts is already available on the ALH &LCH for quite some years now.

Also, some approaches that Hari Nair sir said - Some to do with GPS way point and such. It looks like we are still following a few decades-old procedures.

I discussed the possibility with my colleagues who have operated at the WGC helipad. Their opinion is that given the high terrain very close by and the fact that the approach is curved they doubt that even a PinS based approach using SBAS augmented GNSS even with RNP of 0.1 can ever be used at WGC helipad. That approach will perhaps remain a visual approach even in the foreseeable future.

[fanne]

Thanks Hari sir,
Then only solution is for airports/helipads like these (mangalore airport comes as another example),
Vip and Vvip flights should forever be cancelled. If there is time where 100% of any moth is fully clear, maybe.
Also regular flights should have protocol on how many high officials should fly. Please take the road.
There is no need to temp fate. Our country runs on very few good men/women, no need for losing any of them in these kinds of accidents.

[arvin]

Terrain warning with audio and visual alerts is already available on the ALH &LCH for quite some years now.

Thanks for the insights Hari Nair ji.
Both of them also have FLIR in the nose. Given the same conditions of fog woudnt they be in a better position than an Mi-17V5 to look through it.
Wondering if an escort of ALH Rudra flying ahead of the Mi-17V5 would have averted the disaster.

[Haridas]

Terrain warning with audio and visual alerts is already available on the ALH &LCH for quite some years now.

Thanks for the insights Hari Nair ji.
Both of them also have FLIR in the nose. Given the same conditions of fog woudnt they be in a better position than an Mi-17V5 to look through it.
Wondering if an escort of ALH Rudra flying ahead of the Mi-17V5 would have averted the disaster.

Prey tell was there not enough fuel on board to turn back when unexpectedly cloud (bcoz it was on mountain level it is fog) show up in the valley route? VFR rules are very clear or need FLIR to read it? (sic)

ALH & LCH FLIR is aid (not primary) for night flying or light fog
Cloud == heaviest fog. Hence FLIR range will be greatly constrained. Flying at 230km/hr using FLIR is deathwish, hence a no-go for flight safety.

Flight Safety must always be #1 every day, every moment in peace time. In hot war some risk can be taken.

Frangi outdoor gizmo is not kosher just bcoz the idea being explored in massaland.

VVIP flight need be held to very high standard, and not a jingo standard lower than general civil aviation.

I get upset when gizmo enthusiasm overcome commonsense aviation practices.

And I say that not becoz of what my ex-IAF brother tells me (who has flown Siachen in two postings, second as CO 114 HU Siachen Pioneers).

See here efficacy of FLIR and see the light fog and distinct & abrupt range clipping.
https://youtu.be/Y7mROTPAVZM

[Haridas]

See CAT-3 performance against naked eyes.

https://www.flir.com/discover/rd-scienc ... -and-rain/

Quote:

Some fogbanks are denser than others because the water droplets have grown bigger through accretion. In fog conditions, droplets can absorb more water and grow considerably in size. The question of whether scattering is less in the IR waveband compared to the visible range depends on the size distribution of the droplets.
There are different ways to classify fog. An often-used classification is the one used by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). According to this system, fog can be classified into 4 categories:

Category I: visual range 1220 meters
Category II: visual range 610 meters
Category IIIa: visual range 305 meters
Category IIIc: visual range 92 meters

The reason for the degradation of visibility in a foggy atmosphere is the absorption and scattering of natural or artificial illumination by fog particles. The amount of absorption and scattering depends on the microphysical structure of the fog particles, also referred to as aerosols. .....

....... Finally, in Cat III conditions (Figure 3), with visibility less than 300 m, there are no substantial differences between how far you can see with a thermal imaging camera and how far you can see with the naked eye.


Figure 3 ©Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR)

The transmission alone does not fully determine how far and what you can see, but the comparison between visual and IR transmission shows whether the atmosphere favors or discriminates against a certain waveband

.

[nachiket]

We have to bear in mind that we don't know for sure yet if this was a CFIT crash due to weather. That is still speculation even if based on reports of prevailing weather in the area. FDR analysis is not yet completed and it might very well reveal a loss of control or altitude due to a mechanical issue.

[ldev]

I discussed the possibility with my colleagues who have operated at the WGC helipad. Their opinion is that given the high terrain very close by and the fact that the approach is curved they doubt that even a PinS based approach using SBAS augmented GNSS even with RNP of 0.1 can ever be used at WGC helipad. That approach will perhaps remain a visual approach even in the foreseeable future.

In the case of Wellington the PinS approach would make sense to reach a point in space 500 feet to 1000 feet above the WGC helipad with a RNP of even 0.3 nm and then transition to VFR. Won't that at the minimum avoid the curved approach? It is possible at that stage at 500-1000 feet that visibility minimums have still not been met and hence the landing is aborted. I have seen air ambulance helicopters in the west, in a snow storm with poor visibility reach a point in space above a hospital rooftop helipad something like a 1000 feet above and then hover there for some time as the pilot transitions to VFR, get's his bearings on the forest of multi storey buildings below him, identifies his hospital rooftop helipad in the driving snow and makes a VFR landing.

Also in the west a lot of RNP 0.3 operations are related to low level flight to avoid icing during winters which may not necessarily be the case in a lot of parts in India as well as navigating in noise sensitive urban areas such as air ambulances approaching hospital helipads during night hours:

Nav Canada’s Dawson said the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has begun to implement some helicopter PBN procedures under a new helicopter-specific navigation specification called RNP 0.3.

“The strict containment requirements under this specification employ tighter obstacle protection areas and allow helicopter operations within dense metropolitan, obstacle rich environments. Benefits of RNP 0.3 include low-level routes to avoid exposure to icing and more efficient terminal area routings to avoid noise-sensitive areas while enabling separation from fixed-wing traffic,” Dawson said.

Currently, there are more than 1,000 helicopter instrument flight procedures in the United States, with more in production, according to Baur. These include Copter RNP APCH, LPV/LP as well as LNAV.

“We are also producing Copter RNP 0.3 low-level airways, and elements of Copter A-RNP using radius-to-fix segments,” Dawson said. “We worked with the FAA to develop helicopter RNP 0.3 low-altitude airways, to keep helicopters in lower, warmer air, reducing encounters with icing conditions. We developed the first helicopter RNP 0.3 routes for the FAA in the Maryland State Police Project. We have now implemented these routes along the mountainous West Coast.”

I think it will be beneficial that at least the non Russian helicopter fleet which is compatible with western IFR equipment be so equipped.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/rahulsinghx/status/ ... 33571?s=20 ---> Air Marshal Manavendra Singh, the man probing the General Rawat chopper crash, has defied death multiple times, including once during one of the gravest emergencies in IAF history involving a Mi-17 --- the stunning details documented in India's Most Fearless 1.

[ramana]

So did the IAF have an inquiry into why both engines stopped and restarted?
This crash is very damaging and needs to be fully investigated to ensure a future VIP is not sacrificed.

[ramana]

Hari Nair,
Thanks for telling us about the WGC field special issues.

I discussed the possibility with my colleagues who have operated at the WGC helipad. Their opinion is that given the high terrain very close by and the fact that the approach is curved they doubt that even a PinS based approach using SBAS augmented GNSS even with RNP of 0.1 can ever be used at WGC helipad. That approach will perhaps remain a visual approach even in the foreseeable future.

Looks like WGC is not worth flying in a helicopter even in the best of times.
This aspect of the terrain is important to consider in the investigation.

[Hari Nair]

Hari Nair,
Thanks for telling us about the WGC field special issues.

I discussed the possibility with my colleagues who have operated at the WGC helipad. Their opinion is that given the high terrain very close by and the fact that the approach is curved they doubt that even a PinS based approach using SBAS augmented GNSS even with RNP of 0.1 can ever be used at WGC helipad. That approach will perhaps remain a visual approach even in the foreseeable future.

Looks like WGC is not worth flying in a helicopter even in the best of times.
This aspect of the terrain is important to consider in the investigation.

• Actually, WGC helipad is not really a very difficult or unusual helipad. It belongs to the typical category of helipads IAF & Army helicopter pilots are very well used to operating in the North East and North.

• Crew are used to landing at helipads with obstructing terrain in close proximity during the terminal phases of approach and as well as near the helipad. For obvious reasons, these approaches and landing are purely visual.

• Introduction of PinS-based approaches with best RNP of 0.1 means that the on-board navigation system coupled to the autopilot can maintain position of the helicopter within about 185 m (of each specified points-in-space which in turn are part of a pre-planned pattern designed to be at safe heights above terrain).

• That's good enough only for a non-precision approach - which means that the terminal segment of approach and landing will still have to be visual. The point I was trying to make is that planning a PinS based approach to WGC is likely to put a helicopter far too high above WGC helipad when the pilot transitions to visual mode, which means the visual segment will be too steep. Even helicopters need to fly approach and landings at particular approach angles.

• Final point – the combination of Eyeball Mk1 with good motor skills of a helicopter pilot, coupled to a manoeuvrable helicopter in visual conditions, is not easy to replicate by automation or tech augmentation, for IFR.

So did the IAF have an inquiry into why both engines stopped and restarted?
This crash is very damaging and needs to be fully investigated to ensure a future VIP is not sacrificed.

I may be stirring a hornet’s nest here:
• I have adequate experience on the older Mi-17s and have operated at the maximum elevated helipads and ALGs in the Ladakh Sector as well as North East.

• While the Mi-17 and its follow-on variants including the V5 are robust, have good performance, and is suited for the roles, it is high time the IAF plans to move away from this Russian line of helicopters. The Mi-17 variants may be ubiquitous (like the Russian RPGs) – however these are far from the “best, most advanced helicopters” and other breathless, adulatory superlatives that have been put forth by “sources” to the press after this unfortunate crash.

• As far as VVIP helicopters are concerned, we had made this attempt when I had served in a junior appointment in Air HQs way back in late 90s. The first requirements that were issued were stringent with 6000 m altitude operations capability and called for a state-of-art VVIP helicopter. The technical and flight evaluation had then narrowed down the French Super Puma / Cougar, which today has its follow-on military derivative – the H 225M Caracal. If then introduced, the VVIP helicopter fleet would today have looked very different and we would have imbibed the advantages of good serviceabillity, longer times between overhauls, far better avionics, critical systems designed to Western Military Standards for redundancy, safety, etc.

• Unfortunately, the requirements were then diluted, the operational ceiling was reduced, some other 'convenient' cabin dimension requirements, etc were tacked on and we spent a heap of money, got ourselves the EH-101s, that are now stored in a hangar.

[ldev]

Introduction of PinS-based approaches with best RNP of 0.1 means that the on-board navigation system coupled to the autopilot can maintain position of the helicopter within about 185 m (of each specified points-in-space which in turn are part of a pre-planned pattern designed to be at safe heights above terrain).

• That's good enough only for a non-precision approach - which means that the terminal segment of approach and landing will still have to be visual. The point I was trying to make is that planning a PinS based approach to WGC is likely to put a helicopter far too high above WGC helipad when the pilot transitions to visual mode, which means the visual segment will be too steep. Even helicopters need to fly approach and landings at particular approach angles.

Thank you for this clarification.

[Aditya_V]

Yes my first thought was it takes 2.5 hours for Aam Abdul to reach from Sulur AFS to Wellington, if police can clear the roads may be less, perhaps in future its better that Army and AF personnel use this option to address cases in Wellington. I know thier schedule are busy. But better to safe after this incident adit an unessecary risk. Or create a Helipad at Mettupalayam and drive from there

Hari Nair, given your experience in IAF and HAL as a Helicopter pilot, how feasible is it for ALH to be used in VVIP role?

[fanne]

or do it remote or not do at all. VIP and VVIP should never fly to Wellington (and please identify other spots like this). There are 1000s of places people can go for whatever they are doing. Make a protocol and ban it.

[Hari Nair]

...Hari Nair, given your experience in IAF and HAL as a Helicopter pilot, how feasible is it for ALH to be used in VVIP role?

Very feasible. There is a process to assess actual safety statistics, platform capabilities and then decide. In any case, at very high elevation helipads in Ladakh Sector, the ALH has already been used to ferry VIPs. I am sure in time, the ALH will mature to be in contention to ferry VVIPs also.

or do it remote or not do at all. VIP and VVIP should never fly to Wellington (and please identify other spots like this). There are 1000s of places people can... go for whatever they are doing. Make a protocol and ban it.

That perhaps may be going excessively timid and will even be retrogressive. On the same lines, the best strategy to maximise Flight Safety is not to fly at all!!

[Rakesh]

Thank You Hari Nair Sir.

The HAL Dhruv can be configured in a VIP role.

HAL's own website lists VIP as one of the roles ---> https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details ... y=&CKey=24

[ramana]

or do it remote or not do at all. VIP and VVIP should never fly to Wellington (and please identify other spots like this). There are 1000s of places people can go for whatever they are doing. Make a protocol and ban it.

Please don't make ridiculous suggestions. Thanks.

[ks_sachin]

or do it remote or not do at all. VIP and VVIP should never fly to Wellington (and please identify other spots like this). There are 1000s of places people can go for whatever they are doing. Make a protocol and ban it.

Staff College, Madras Regimental Centre etc by road all the time...that will fly like a ton of bricks...

[ks_sachin]

Yes my first thought was it takes 2.5 hours for Aam Abdul to reach from Sulur AFS to Wellington, if police can clear the roads may be less, perhaps in future its better that Army and AF personnel use this option to address cases in Wellington. I know thier schedule are busy. But better to safe after this incident adit an unessecary risk. Or create a Helipad at Mettupalayam and drive from there

Its only the VVIPS of VIPS who fly in. The aam junta from all three services don't fly to Wellington.

[Indranil]

Thank you Hari Sir.

[mukkan]

Hari Nair,
This accident is very similar to the fatal helicopter accident that killed Kobe Bryant. His helicopter also didn't have TAWS. But NTSB report says even TAWS would not have helped. Pilot was experiencing disorientation. Have you experienced similar issues when flying through fog?

When Zobayan decided to climb above the clouds, he entered a trap that has doomed many flights. Once a pilot loses visual cues by flying into fog or darkness, the inner ear can send erroneous signals to the brain that causes spatial disorientation. It’s sometimes known as “the leans,” causing pilots to believe they are flying aircraft straight and level when they are banking.

Zobayan radioed air traffic controllers that he was climbing when, in fact, he was banking and descending rapidly toward the steep hills near Calabasas, NTSB investigators concluded.

Flying under visual flight rules, Zobayan was required to be able to see where he was going. Flying into the cloud was a violation of that standard and probably led to his disorientation, NTSB said.

There were 184 aircraft crashes between 2010-2019 involving spatial disorientation, including 20 fatal helicopter crashes, the NTSB said.

https://apnews.com/article/kobe-bryant- ... ea8e8e5564

The chopper wasn’t equipped with a terrain awareness and warning system, or TAWS, which could have provided critical information to the pilot about the mountainous area.

Industry officials have estimated the cost of retrofitting such a system—which in some cases can give pilots an audible warning 10 seconds or more before a potential collision with the ground—at roughly $25,000 to $40,000.

The Sikorsky S-76B model rolled out of the factory before the Federal Aviation Administration mandated such equipment on new choppers, but replacement systems have been available for about 15 years. All business jets and airliners have advanced versions of ground-collision warning systems, as do many medical and air tour helicopters.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/kobe-b ... 1580264053

The NTSB board says:
The pilot made a "poor decision" to fly at "excessive airspeed" -- about 160 miles per hour -- into an area of poor visibility.

The pilot lost the ability to control the helicopter after losing visual contact with the ground.

And the pilot may have had what the NTSB called -- "self induced pressure" -- to complete the flight, despite the bad visibility, because he wanted to satisfy his client, Kobe Bryant.

The NTSB ruled out lots of other factors.


https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/nati ... t/2536402/

[ramana]

Inner ear syndrome is vertigo.

Let us hear from COI.
Its now tri-service investigation too.

Hari, Thanks for replying to my naroti.
You guys fly with heart in your hands.
Yes, one outcome will be IMRH will get funded pronto.

[Hari Nair]

Hari Nair,
This accident is very similar to the fatal helicopter accident that killed Kobe Bryant. His helicopter also didn't have TAWS. But NTSB report says even TAWS would not have helped. Pilot was experiencing disorientation. Have you experienced similar issues when flying through fog?

When Zobayan decided to climb above the clouds, he entered a trap that has doomed many flights. Once a pilot loses visual cues by flying into fog or darkness, the inner ear can send erroneous signals to the brain that causes spatial disorientation. It’s sometimes known as “the leans,” causing pilots to believe they are flying aircraft straight and level when they are banking.

Zobayan radioed air traffic controllers that he was climbing when, in fact, he was banking and descending rapidly toward the steep hills near Calabasas, NTSB investigators concluded.

• Yes, Kobe Bryant's S-76 met with a CFIT accident. However, attributing spatial disorientation as also the same cause for the recent V5 crash is perhaps jumping the gun. I had stated that CFIT is a potential cause. The Court-of-Inquiry will need to ascertain the specific reason(s) that led the V5 to impact the terrain.

• Kobe Bryant’s crash is rather curious. The S-76B is fully IFR certified. Either that specific helicopter he had was a stripped-down VFR only version, or the pilot was not experienced or perhaps not Instrument Rated. Even if one plans a VFR flight and then en-route weather is encountered that precludes further flight in VFR, there is a procedure whereby the pilot can transit to IFR flight.

• The S-76 is a very capable machine. My colleague who flies it narrated an impressive account of his flight by night in bad weather to an off-shore oil rig more than 180 km from our shore. They carried out an instrument approach and landing using the oil rig’s beacon and on-board avionics. They picked up the casualty from the rig and flew him back. Remember, the oil rig is just a point over the open ocean and executing this approach by dark night and in bad weather is no small task.

• Spatial disorientation is a known phenomenon and every pilot has encountered it. It is tackled through training, reliance on flight instruments and use of Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS), that imparts stability to the helicopter, which otherwise in its pure mechanical form is dynamically unstable.

• Flying by primarily using TAWS or other terrain avoidance systems to avoid terrain is not the correct way to do a peacetime routine transport task. That is supposed to be done primarily through procedural means, by selecting transit altitude and descent approach points, all calculated with safe clearance from terrain. TAWS and other terrain warning systems are back-ups to cater for inadvertent deviations from the procedurally correct flight path.

[vrbarreto]

https://twitter.com/ajaykraina/status/1 ... 11522?s=20 --->

An update, as received...
Prayers and faith can move mountains, is what I truly believe.
Group Captain Varun is doing much better now. He has been started on some solid food and his body has tolerated it.
Today they begin skin grafting.
Lets keep him in prayers!

Excellent news about Grp Cpt Varun ! His testimony will help the crash investigation immensely, in due course of time of course ! His full recovery is paramount now.

Sadly he didn't make it.. He had over 95% burns

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... s-7673898/

[arvin]

Now that Leonardo Company(formerly Finmeccanica) is kosher again and MOD babus have blessed it to do business, cant the 3 AW101 in mothball be put to use. The ban was lifted on Nov 12 after Leonardo withdrew claims of 350 million Euros for the tender cancellation.
None of the political VVIP will want to touch it due to its tainted acquisition.
But maybe consider it for transporting only military personnel assuming its safety aspects has been configured for VVIP role.

[mukkan]

Thanks Hari Nair for very detailed explanation. Findings from any accident anywhere in the world could be used to improve the flight safety. ATSB analysis report of that accident https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Doc ... Update.pdf

The helicopter was not equipped with a flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorder (CVR) nor
was it required to be for the accident flight. The helicopter was equipped with a four-axis
automatic flight control system, electronic flight instrument system, radio altimeter, and ADS-B
transponder. It was also equipped with a flight management system (FMS). The airworthiness
group retained the FMS computer to examine it for any available recorded data stored in
memory, and also retained two flight control computers, four gyros, and the standby attitude
indicator for further examination

The pilot, age 50, had worked for Island Express for about 10 years. According to FAA records,
the pilot held an FAA commercial certificate with ratings for helicopter and instrument
helicopter, as well as an FAA instructor certificate for flight, instrument, and ground instruction.

His most recent FAA second-class medical certificate was issued on July 3, 2019, with a
limitation stating, “must have glasses for near vision.” At the time of his last medical application,
he reported 8,200 total hours of flight experience. The pilot logged about 1,250 total hours in the
S76 helicopter. His most recent flight review, including proficiency training in inadvertent entry
into instrument meteorological conditions (IIMC) and unusual attitude recovery, was conducted
in a helicopter with EUROSAFETY International on May 8, 2019. The pilot received
satisfactory grades for these maneuvers.

[MeshaVishwas]

Don't like waking this thread but the documentary seemed fit(ter ) for this.

(The news clipping labeling the Su-7 BMK with even the correct type "S-22" is just golden)

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 55874?s=20 ---> MiG-21 crash - Jaisalmer sector - exact location being verified. Status of pilot unknown.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 32643?s=20 ---> IAF MiG-21 crahses near Jaisalmer. Search ops on for pilot. Fifth IAF MiG-21 to crash in 2021, other fighter jets types in IAF inventory saw only one crash this year.

[Rakesh]

Sad news. The pilot is reportedly killed. Awaiting more news.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 11841?s=20 ---> Pilot reportedly killed in this MiG-21 crash. Fatalities in MiG-21 crashes sharply rose in 2021 with 3 pilots killed in this one year alone, whereas between 2012-20, 3 MiG-21 pilots were killed in a nine year period.

[Mort Walker]

Om shanti.

Very sad. With 3 crashes this year, perhaps a halt to Mig-21 operations?

[Nihat]

This is disgusting. These mig 21 have served the nation brilliantly and won us wars but please this is it now. The IAF is not done high and mighty organization that can do no wrong. Dragging its feet over LCA is a crime And we are paying for it with blood.

For heavens sake, no more mig 21

[Shameek]

Wing Commander Harshit Sinha passed away in this crash. Pray for strength to his family to deal with this massive loss.

[AkshaySG]

The amount of senior experienced and highly decorated fighter pilots we've lost just this year is a massive blow.

5 Mig 21 Crashes this year, 3 Pilots lost

For an Air Force that is already suffering a pilot shortage and has a doctrine of high readiness it is particularly severe.

MOD, The previous governments, Senior AF leadership and the babus should all have their hands bloody from these losses in Mig 21s.

You can dream up all kinds of MRFA's and a bazillion squadrons but whose gonna fly these planes when we keep losing fine officers at such a rate.

[S_Madhukar]

How much more should the youth sacrifice so that our so called wise seniors finally make a decision ... it is one thing Tom toming to the press that the mig 21 is a worthy aircraft, the other is to get close to probability 1 that it will crash at any point in the future. This mig21 has become a vampire sucking us out beyond its life and we are providing more prey. I wonder when will the courts of inquiry actually Ask these jets to be scrapped ...

[yensoy]

Those who drag their heels on the acquisition of Tejas and delay the replacement/retirement of Mig21s have blood on their hands. Every single one of them.

[Prem Kumar]

What takes the cake is the recent pronouncement that Tejas is for modernization & not for Mig replacement ........... which is a different way of saying "We won't order more Tejas even if it means our pilots die in Migs, because we are saving up that money for MRFA"