Military Flight Safety

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Indranil
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Indranil »

What is this discussion? And why?
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Indranil I was just questioning assumptions.

However I will delete my post.
arvin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by arvin »

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/mirage- ... -air-force
The findings of the Court of Inquiry (CoI) of a mid-air collision between two Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets, a SU-30MKI and a Mirage-2000, will be sent to the Air Headquarters, reported The Hindu.

An official stated that the CoI is finished and the revelations are with Command. Once it has gone through the necessary formalities (which involve review by the legal team) it will then be delivered to the Air Headquarters.
wig
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by wig »

Navy Chopper Meets with Accident Near Mumbai, 3 Rescued; Probe Underway
excerpted
An Indian Navy helicopter today made an emergency landing off the Mumbai coast. The incident occurred when the advanced light helicopter (ALH) was on a routine sortie.
Indian Navy said that three crew members of the 'Dhruv' chopper have been rescued.

"Indian Navy ALH on a routine sortie off Mumbai ditched close to the coast. Immediate Search and Rescue ensured safe recovery of crew of three by naval patrol craft," Navy said on its official Twitter handle.


https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-n ... _topscroll
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Good to hear that all crew safely recovered!
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Manish_P wrote:Good to hear that all crew safely recovered!

Image
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Yes, sir. Saw some photos on twitter. Not this one though.

I maybe wrong but i think the bird has been recovered as well ?
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Manish_P wrote:Yes, sir. Saw some photos on twitter. Not this one though.

I maybe wrong but i think the bird has been recovered as well ?
Yes Manish ji, and it will be back in service, after jumping through some bureaucratic hoops and completing a leisurely overhaul by HAL.

looks like they had a sudden loss of power and luckily were able to set her down with little or no structural damage.


Image

video here via@dillipmahapatra

Fate did them all a favour, and Lady Luck had their backs.

Happy Holi indeed.


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fanne
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by fanne »

Did it go inside the water and pulled out or the heli stayed out of water after deploying the floats? As if it landed on water? In that case I should be flyable again?
RajaRudra
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by RajaRudra »

I never thought about a helicopter can survive a crash and still in one peace. In cinemas and whatever real videos i say always have a scene of the rotors flying like God Krishnas chakra in all direction in self-destruction mode. A flying boat is a reality in case a need arises it seems.
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Glad everyone is safe.

The flotation mechanism would make the heli bob up fairly quickly despite getting dunked due to the force of the initial decent into water. How much dunking depends on descent rate. Looks like in this case, there was just enough power and the pilot's commendable skills and sang froid enabled a fairly controlled upright gentle touch down in water with very little dunking, upper half of the heli seems to have stayed dry. But some wiring, electronics, sensors etc would have been damaged for sure.

Some rescuers seem to be sitting on the rotor blades ?! The rotor blades are unfolded even when the heli is back on land after being recovered. Surely folding blades will make such operations easier.

In case the heli had tipped over before/while making contact with water, the flotation devices would bob it up upside down, making the crew's egress difficult. Don't know if there are any features that can counter this. May be Hari saar can comment. If blades break and fly around, they can damage the floaters, fuselage, windows and eventually the occupants. Lucky none of that happened.

Positive takeaway from the incident - real life proof that the flotation system works as it should in an upright ditching. Good job by designers, testers, mfg and maintenance teams.

If the engine didn't get dunked, the heli would be thoroughly cleaned, inspected, serviced, certified and reinstated into active duty.
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Also part of engine cowl is missing in the first photo. May be something blew. Very lucky if that was the case.
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

fanne wrote:Did it go inside the water and pulled out or the heli stayed out of water after deploying the floats? As if it landed on water? In that case I should be flyable again?
fanne ji,

Looks like the helo only partially submerged but hard to say where exactly the water has entered just by the photos available. She will be dismantled to the required extent and gone over with a fine toothed comb.

HAL will probably send a contractor's working party to assist the IN in doing the detailed strip examination along with the Navy's own inspectors.

The engines and the transmission chain seem ok. Even the tail rotor may not have impacted the water. These are the most expensive components. If the tail rotor impacted, then both the main and tail gear boxes, the tail drive shaft and other drive components in the transmission chain will simply have to be replaced. No inspector will allow them to be reused again. They will end up in the training school.

There will be some underfloor LRUs, airframe components, undercarriage parts and a whole bunch of electrical wiring harness that needs to be inspected and most than likely that they will all need to be replaced, as a matter of abundant caution, because of the salt water ingress and to ensure continued reliability going forward.

A twin engined helo losing power like they said that it did is not normal. The IA has also lost such helos so the BOI will have its work cut out to see if there are any common issues

Much of the interior and the affected exterior will be inspected, and treated and some parts will either be refinished/replaced/repainted.

This helo will fly again.
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:Also part of engine cowl is missing in the first photo. May be something blew. Very lucky if that was the case.
Cyrano ji,

look again carefully.

The "engine cowl" is open and it is also designed to be a servicing platform when open.

The crew seem to have opened it for better hand hold grab points when they clambered up (those three guys sitting on the main rotor head)
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Yes, you are right. But seems odd. It's hinged at the bottom, so to do that surrounded by water, one has to clamber up first?!
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

RajaRudra wrote:I never thought about a helicopter can survive a crash and still in one peace. In cinemas and whatever real videos i say always have a scene of the rotors flying like God Krishnas chakra in all direction in self-destruction mode. A flying boat is a reality in case a need arises it seems.
The helo's airframe is actually designed to survive a crash but only when the impact is below a design (limit) specified g loading.

There are some ALH gurus posting here who will know those values off the top of their heads. I will also try and find out.

In this case, RajaRudra ji, this was no crash but a controlled ditching in water, wherein the helo has entered the water with minimal or maybe with almost no impact at all.

It depends on the captain's handling and also how high the helo was when the emergency occurred. This captain seems to have done very well, saving both, crew and helo.
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:Yes, you are right. But seems odd. It's hinged at the bottom, so to do that surrounded by water, one has to clamber up first?!
Cyrano ji,

It also serves as a servicing platform that can easily support two or three guys. It needs to be hinged at the bottom, no...

There are usually hand and foot holds to climb up.

Ladders are not always available in the field.


Image

here the handles that are used to climb up to work on the engines or the components on the main rotor head are clearly visible around the helo's airframe number CG 858. Follow them to see the other handles right to the top.

also visible are the platform hinges, to left of the winch
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Right! Thanks for explaining saar.
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

chetak wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Yes, sir. Saw some photos on twitter. Not this one though.

I maybe wrong but i think the bird has been recovered as well ?
Yes Manish ji, and it will be back in service, after jumping through some bureaucratic hoops and completing a leisurely overhaul by HAL.

..
That's great to hear. Let them put it in a glass cage to show the toughness and survivability to potential customers :D

Coincidentally it has the serial number containing 9... a true survivor like a cat who has 9 lives.

May it serve long.
AkshaySG
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by AkshaySG »

Fleetwide grounding of HAL Dhruv ordered.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... _D7rw&s=19
Atmavik
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Atmavik »

Cyrano wrote:Yes, you are right. But seems odd. It's hinged at the bottom, so to do that surrounded by water, one has to clamber up first?!

its hinged at the bottom by design so that the technicians can sit on it while repair/maintenance . the mk 1 dhruvs did not have this and was added later after the navy complained.
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

AkshaySG wrote:Fleetwide grounding of HAL Dhruv ordered.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... _D7rw&s=19
That seems jittery even without waiting for the investigation to complete. Might be more than just the heli causing worry?
chetak
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:
AkshaySG wrote:Fleetwide grounding of HAL Dhruv ordered.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... _D7rw&s=19
That seems jittery even without waiting for the investigation to complete. Might be more than just the heli causing worry?

Cyrano ji,

This is a fairly standard procedure when the situation is considered serious and used globally by almost all countries/operators.

It's usually merited when a special safety inspection is mandated to be carried out as a matter of abundant caution and usually falls within the ambit of some flight critical issue.
Groundings generally come in a variety of forms. They can require planes be taken out of service immediately, even before a remedy has been specified, or they can come with a remedy specified.

Airplanes can also be grounded after a certain number of hours or flights, during which the airlines that operate the affected aircraft can decide when and how to inspect and repair them
In this case, it has been done before any specific results of the investigation have emerged or point definitively to what may have happened and why the failure occurred.

Pointless to speculate as we don't have access to all the information.
haryanvi
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by haryanvi »

Came across this insightful piece in today's The Tribune. Couldn't find a thread for Dhruv, hence posting here:

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... ruv-487709

It's written by Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (Retd), Former Additional Director General, Centre for Air Power Studies
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

A cheetah reportedly down in Arunachal Pradesh

Search on for the crew

Hoping they make it.
wig
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by wig »

very distressing news
Both the pilots involved in the crash of the Indian Army's Cheetah helicopter have lost their lives, confirmed Army officials. The helicopter crashed near the Mandala hills of Arunachal Pradesh. The Indian Army helicopter stopped communicating at around 9:15 on Thursday morning, as per reports. A search operation was launched immediately for the missing pilots.
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/bo ... 8e1e&ei=23
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Om Shanti
Cyrano
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Cyrano »

Saddened by the loss of our pilots. Veera gati praapti rastu. Om Shanti.
Manish_P
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Manish_P »

Om Shanti

May God give their families strength to bear their irreplaceable loss.
Rakesh
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 56737?s=20 ---> Condolences to the families of Lt Col VVB Reddy & Major Jayanth A, the crew of the Army Cheetah helicopter that crashed near Bomdila, Arunachal Pradesh today.

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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by hgupta »

As to the Naval Dhruv that crashed and survived, people were ruminating that it would fly again. Sorry I wouldn't let it fly again. Once dunked into the ocean, you have to account for corrosion factor and you cannot completely rule out that the water did not go into no go areas. I would classify it as a write off and take it apart and salvage what can be salvaged and reuse the good components after a lengthy inspection. It is like buying a flooded car. You can never be sure that the car won't seized. That is why in any flooded area where a car gets partially submerged, it is completely written off due to the pervading corrosion factor.
ramana
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ramana »

Very true. Wonder which exfarts are suggesting the salvage?
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

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hgupta
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by hgupta »

ks_sachin wrote:
hgupta wrote:As to the Naval Dhruv that crashed and survived, people were ruminating that it would fly again. Sorry I wouldn't let it fly again. Once dunked into the ocean, you have to account for corrosion factor and you cannot completely rule out that the water did not go into no go areas. I would classify it as a write off and take it apart and salvage what can be salvaged and reuse the good components after a lengthy inspection. It is like buying a flooded car. You can never be sure that the car won't seized. That is why in any flooded area where a car gets partially submerged, it is completely written off due to the pervading corrosion factor.
The Forces go through a detailed assessment process before writing off anything. OTherwise the beancounters will make their lives hell..If it is salvageable, then it will be salvaged. Plus if it is deemed in a structural state where it can be returned to service, then it will be stripped down and overhauled to a flightworthy state - this could include replacement of engines and avionics etc. Don't equate how the IN or IAF operate with buying a flooded car!
The USN wrote off a 45,000 carrier that was saved from being burned down even though it was salvageable. It was deemed too costly to restore it back to its former condition. You cannot ignore the corrosion factor when it comes to maritime equipment especially when lives are on the line.

As for comparison to a flooded car, I was using a simple analogy in order to get to the point for a layman.
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

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hgupta
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by hgupta »

ks_sachin wrote:Cost is a separate thing which is part of the decision making process.
You talked with expertise on corrosion implying that the IN does not know its job.

IN / IA /IAF have the necessary protocols. They really don’t need advise from us arm chair generals.
Sure go ahead and put them on pedestals and we dare not venture our opinions. Hence, no need for this forum. Might as well shut it down since they don't need advice from us. :roll:
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

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Pratyush
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by Pratyush »

If we are discussing the water landing of the ALH off Mumbai.


Then please note that the aircraft had deployed floats. That shows that the aircraft was designed with such a contingency in mind. The landing was autorotation.

Depending on the sink rate during the descent. It is possible for the aircraft to brought back into service. Once the factors resulting in accident have been resolved.
ks_sachin
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by ks_sachin »

Thanks Pratyush.
It was a Naval ALH. HAL and the IN would have a very good of the impact of corrosion.
hgupta
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Re: Military Flight Safety

Post by hgupta »

ks_sachin wrote:They definitely dont need advice from you. First learn how they operate. They have been doing this longer than your time on this earth!
And who the hell are you to tell me what to say and not to say? Explain the process then instead of making a sweeping statement like you are the final authority on this matter. Sounds like you're easily triggered when someone disagrees with your opinion.

How do you counter the effect of corrosion when seawater gets into critical system? Not to mention sea spray, waves, and even the salty air. It is a time consuming effort that may require a complete strip down and disassembly of the helicopter and rebuilding it from ground up. You might as well as order a new one.
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