Military Flight Safety

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Postby Ved » 12 Aug 2005 21:10

Kannan wrote:You should never never never be landing in tailwind conditions to begin with.


Not quite - while its always recommended to land into wind for obvious reasons, there may be many reasons while this may not be possible/advisable at times. All aircraft have a permissable tailwind as well as cross wind landing component, and it's the pilot's business to know this and decide accordingly.

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Postby Kannan » 13 Aug 2005 01:01

Ved wrote:
Kannan wrote:You should never never never be landing in tailwind conditions to begin with.


Not quite - while its always recommended to land into wind for obvious reasons, there may be many reasons while this may not be possible/advisable at times. All aircraft have a permissable tailwind as well as cross wind landing component, and it's the pilot's business to know this and decide accordingly.


Obviously there's always an "emergency" exception, but permissible/neglected tailwind is kept at <5kts IAS for most aircraft around the 12.5k lbs limit, and they generally decide the landing patterns based on the lowest common denominator landing, and thus decide your approach.

As much as it is a pilot's business, most ATC's I've noticed decide this for you, as it would seriously screw up airport operations if they set up a traffic pattern to use a runway into the wind and you decided to land from the other direction because you were closer to it :)

Unless you're running out of fuel and there's a burning airplane at the
other end, or you can concoct another really good reason for your controller on why you want to land with tailwind, they'll probably have you follow their pattern w/headwind :)

I haven't had the chance, but on a slow and boring day with no traffic, I'll head on over to Detroit Metro(DTW) sometime at night and try some landing with heavy tailwind for kicks. :P

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Postby Jagan » 13 Aug 2005 01:06

Maybe one of you chaps is talking of Civilian aircraft while the other is talking about Military aircraft?

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Postby Kannan » 13 Aug 2005 01:11

Jagan wrote:Maybe one of you chaps is talking of Civilian aircraft while the other is talking about Military aircraft?


Probably, good point. I'm guessing the military brats don't have nearly the restrictions the rest of us have to face :evil: :lol:

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Postby Ved » 13 Aug 2005 10:03

Jagan wrote:Maybe one of you chaps is talking of Civilian aircraft while the other is talking about Military aircraft?


Absolutely right - civilian controllers go by the book and specified minima, and so do airline pilots, there's no question of deviation there. However, military pilots often have to deal with unconventional situations, so they are given full authority (within limits, obviously). Having said that, a little bit of tailwind is acceptable even to CV controllers - as long as its within specified limits.

Ever heard about the very experienced airline crew who experienced bad weather, icing, followed by one engine failure, hydraulic failure and the only diversion packing up.... they had to land in zero vis, and 10 km from touchdown the GCA as well as ILS packed up too. Flying purely by instinct and gut feeling, the Captain made contact with the runway and slammed on the brakes, bursting the tyres but coming to a stop just in time, with the nose hanging over the runway edge, all in blinding rain and gale-force cross-winds.

There was pin drop silence. Then the Captain said..."God, that's the shortest runway I ever landed on!"

The Co-pilot looked left and right, and said, a little timidly...."er... don't look now, Captain, but its probably the widest too!!!"

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Postby Arun_S » 13 Aug 2005 10:32

KSandy wrote:Some accidents occur by such silly mistakes that it looks impossible unless its proved.
few days back i saw on Nat Geo Aircraft Investigation that an Air france plane crashed after takeoff just bcos of a duct tape on the Altimeter and Speedometer Pitots. The duct tape on the pitots is a procedure when the fuselage of the aircraft is cleaned. However the duct tape must be removed after cleaning. failure to do so in this case caused more then 150 lives.
Now who will believe that a small piece of duct tape caused the plane to crash.
The reason for the Concorde to crash was also very surprising; a small piece of metal strip on the runway.


Reminds me a commercial airlines crash in South America, plane took off at night and after few minutes the glass cockpit started giving warning of extream a of altitude and speed (inspite of 4 independent sensors). The pilot has no instrument to indicate altitude and speed. Plane was vectored to sea to make to safe and a second plane was flown to find the lost plane. While pilot who was flying on idling and the cockpit was warning it of overspeed. Ground radar indicated altitude of 11Kft (later it was found it came from aircraft transponder that gave the data from a/c instrumentation that was root cause of instrumentation. Anyway the ground proximilay warning came and the pilot did not know which information to belive (instrument showing 11k ft), when the plane touched water pilot revved up and pulled but eventually crashed.

Accident investigation indicated all 4 port holes for altimeter and pitot were masked by tape during a washing or painting activity on ground. Multiple process faults occured after that preventing its detection and resulting in accident. The work crew forgot to remove the tapes. The ground crew supervisor was absent and a junior guy who did the checks and overlooked. Then the Pilots did the pre-flight check at night and also overlooked. End result was crash with passengers on board.

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Postby shiv » 13 Aug 2005 10:47

Arun you are referring to the same crash that ksandy was talking about.

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Postby Arun_S » 13 Aug 2005 11:39

No. I distinctly recall it was not Air-France but a S.American airline on a domestic flight. It was on discovery channel ~ 6 weeks ago.

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Postby KSandy » 13 Aug 2005 11:43

Yes Arun you are talking of the same situation. Absense of senior supervisor and overlooking of the junior, flight during night, pilots inability to notice the transperent tape at height of 15 feet.
Rules of maintenance books clearly states that the duct tape used should be of dark colour and not transperent.

While i accept that Pilot error might be a major cause of accidents, however i would still consider maintenance irresponsibilities and situational confusions as the major cause.

I dont know if pilots are trained in simulated crash situations. If this is done then i believe the pilot still can keep his calm and find a way out. However if its not done then the point when the pilots smell trouble, obviously they will be confused and that does lead to mistakes.

I had also seen an investigation in which the aircarft was flying with full fuel but after half the journey, the pilots noticed that the plane is consuming too much fuel then normal which would put them empty well before landing. the captain did not sense fuel leak so considerd it as computer error. this consideration was done after noticing the readings on the temperature and pressure indicators which said pressure increasing but temp decreasing, which is not expected normally.
the pilot realised that really there is a fuel leak only when one of the engines went off. to maintain level flight and maintain fule they switched on fuel cross fead which transferred fuel from one side wong to other to maintain level. however this decision proved fatal.
the pilots still kept calm and they did something never done before.
the plane was gliding for the rest of the journey and they did succeed in landing the plane without any loss of lives.
the investigation revealed maintenance error which caused the fuel supply pipe to crack and resulted in fuel loss. replacing worn out fuel supply pipe with new one of not the same type but of an older model engine.

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Postby KSandy » 13 Aug 2005 11:45

Arun_S wrote:No. I distinctly recall it was not Air-France but a S.American airline on a domestic flight. It was on discovery channel ~ 6 weeks ago.


May be Arun that we are talking of two different scenarios. However one more possibility might be of me mistaking Air France with South American Airlines. With me this is possible since poor memory chip in my brain and too much Nat Geo. :lol:

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Postby Shankar » 13 Aug 2005 12:51

Talking of natgeo crash investigation series may be the best in long time . Ther was one where lack of lubrication in one of the american airlines md-11 i think on the jack screw which makes the elevator move up and down . The therad was worn down and the pilots kept ontrying to opearate by switchin alternate servo motors and kep on flyingthe aircraft ultimately the screw gave in and aircraft crashed into sea. All because the screw was not lubricated with few cents of grease during the maintainance .

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Postby KSandy » 13 Aug 2005 15:18

i have seen that episode. you must have seen the conditoin of the thread which was worn out. it looked as if it was machined in a Lathe machine. complete threading was gone strips of metal were out.
i still remember very well, a survivor lady in one of the crash saying... why do these people play chicken with our lives.
she is so right.

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Postby Shankar » 13 Aug 2005 15:51

will be in dubai next week -sandy do you think a br meet is possible

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Postby KSandy » 13 Aug 2005 16:31

Sandeep (KSandy) is at your service. Please let me know more details.
How many of BR members are there in Dubai?
Very anxious to be part of a BR meet.

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Postby Shankar » 13 Aug 2005 17:20

dont really know but even if you and me for sure -reaching dubai 19th late night hotel regal plaza - shankar ghosh -looking forward meeting you 20th evening -see u

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Postby KSandy » 13 Aug 2005 17:47

Regal Plaza.. Hmm good hotel selection (specially if interested in Night discos and ... etc ). Can discuss it out of this forum.
Mail me at kunder_sandy AT yahoo DOT co DOT in
20th saturday. No problems of meeting around 6 pm.
Anybody else in Dubai????

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Postby KSandy » 13 Aug 2005 17:47

Regal Plaza.. Hmm good hotel selection (specially if interested in Night discos and ... etc ). Can discuss it out of this forum.
Mail me at kunder_sandy AT yahoo DOT co DOT in
20th saturday. No problems of meeting around 6 pm.
Anybody else in Dubai reading this???? Mail me

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Postby KSandy » 15 Aug 2005 11:07

Cypriot Airlines crashes. Initial reports says the pilots were unconcious due to loss in cabin pressure. Well this again will turn up into some maintenance error. But will have to wait a very long time for the official final report to come out.

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Postby rad » 15 Aug 2005 23:16

Its nice to hear about sqn ldr Palit who brought down the jaguar safley after experiencing hydraulic failure and landed whithout the front wheel fully extended in peacetime . He was awarded the vayu sena medal .
Well i would like to bring to readers notice that during the Kargil war Wing Cdr Perumal then Sqdn Ldr , who was flying a recce sortie in a canberra got hit by a stinger missile , the missile blew up an engine .
with one engine and complete electrical failure he opted to fly to Srinagar AFB rather than bail out which he could have done .he landed his plane saftley , I dont think he even got a mention in the despatches leave a lone a Vayu Sena medal ,
Strange are the ways of the vayu sena !!???

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Postby Kannan » 16 Aug 2005 07:11

KSandy wrote:I had also seen an investigation in which the aircarft was flying with full fuel but after half the journey....the pilots still kept calm and they did something never done before.the plane was gliding for the rest of the journey and they did succeed in landing the plane without any loss of lives.the investigation revealed maintenance error which caused the fuel supply pipe to crack and resulted in fuel loss. replacing worn out fuel supply pipe with new one of not the same type but of an older model engine.


You're talking about Air Transat, Robert Piche. You were right, the pipe was for a different model, and it kept vibrating against another component before eventually cutting through and bursting open, spilling fuel. Very very poor decision to open up the crossfeed! He landed in the Azores, but really good skills gliding it as far as he did.

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Postby shiv » 16 Aug 2005 08:07

http://www.hindu.com/2005/08/16/stories ... 421300.htm

"Pilot on ill-fated plane turned blue"

Helena Smith
Loss of pressure inside the cabin was likely cause of the crash

ATHENS: A plane which crashed into a Greek mountain on Sunday, killing its 121 passengers and crew, including dozens of children, may have been brought down by decompression or lack of oxygen in the cabin, incapacitating the pilots.

As investigators examined the plane's two black box recorders, which were recovered at the scene, it emerged that one passenger, Nikos Petrivis, had sent a mobile phone text message to his cousin minutes before the crash.

``The pilot has turned blue and we're all freezing in here,'' read the text. ``I bid you farewell, cousin.''

The pilots of two F-16 fighter jets that were scrambled when the Cypriot airliner lost contact with air traffic controllers in Athens reported that the plane's pilot was absent from the cockpit and that the co-pilot was slumped over the controls. Greek television reported that early in the flight the crew had informed air traffic control that there were problems with the plane's air conditioning.

48 children on board

Flight ZU 522, part of the budget airline Helios Airways' fleet, crashed about 30 km north of Athens International Airport.

It was en route from Larnaca, in Cyprus, to Prague, via Athens.

There were 48 children on board, mostly Greek Cypriots, a Helios spokesman, Giorgos Dimitrou, said.

Airport authorities in both Cyprus and Athens agreed that a loss of pressure inside the cabin was ``almost certainly'' to blame for the accident.

``The pilot appears to have lost consciousness after the plane lost pressure,'' said a statement released at Cyprus's Larnaca airport.

Speaking to the Guardian, Ioannis Pantazarantos, the head of air traffic control at Athens airport, said the Greek air force scrambled two F-16 jet fighters to trail the plane after it failed to respond to radio calls over the Aegean at about 10.30 a.m., one and a half hours after take-off. A Government spokesman said the F-16 pilots reported that the captain was not in the cockpit, the co-pilot was slumped in his seat and oxygen masks could be seen hanging from the cabin ceiling.

When the two pilots flew by the plane a second time they saw two people trying to take control of the Boeing-737, but it was unclear if they were members of the crew or passengers.

It crashed into a shrub-covered gorge at 12.20 p.m. local time.

The head of Greece's airline safety committee, Akrivos Tsolakis, described it as the ``worst accident we've had''.

- Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005

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Postby Dileep » 16 Aug 2005 11:03

Isn't it true that one of the pilots are supposed to wear the oxygen mask all the time, just in case of a decomp? I read so sometime back when that private plane crashed due to decomp.

Maybe these guys didn't, or maybe they didn't have oxygen, like that AI plane recently.

It is a tragedy :-(

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Postby Ved » 16 Aug 2005 18:47

Dileep wrote:Isn't it true that one of the pilots are supposed to wear the oxygen mask all the time, just in case of a decomp?
(


No, I dont think so. In any case, in case of decompression, there's plenty of time to put on a mask - even if it's explosive decompression. And in case the window or door near you gives way, then a mask wont help!

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Airliner crashes in Venezuela

Postby webmaster » 16 Aug 2005 19:15

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/08/16/venezuela.crash.ap/index.html

A passenger plane crashed in remote western Venezuela with 152 passengers aboard early Tuesday, an aviation official said. A top government official said it was unlikely anyone survived.

The West Caribbean Airways plane was headed from Panama to Martinique in the Caribbean when its pilot reported engine trouble to the Caracas airport, said Francisco Paz, president of the National Aviation Institute.

Airport authorities lost radio contact with the plane later in the area of Machiques, in the western state of Zulia, he said.

"Residents in the area said they heard an explosion," Paz said. "Air rescue teams are traveling to the area right now by air and by land."

Interior Minister Jesse Chacon said that based on reports from military helicopters and planes flying over the area, "it's very unlikely there could be survivors."

Paz said the pilot reported trouble with both engines to the Caracas air control tower just after 3 a.m. ET, and authorities lost contact with the plane roughly 10 minutes later.

The plane had been chartered for tourists, and 152 passengers were listed on the flight plan, Paz said. It wasn't immediately clear how many crew members accompanied them.

The plane was believed to have gone down between two farms in the remote zone.

West Caribbean Airways, a Colombian airline, began service in 1998.

In March, a twin-engine plane operated by the same airline crashed during takeoff from the Colombian island of Old Providence, killing eight people and injuring the other six passengers.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


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Postby Dileep » 16 Aug 2005 19:39

Nope. See the FAA regulation:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/acs/61-107.txt

It says:

(3) FAR Section 91.211(b) requires pressurized
aircraft to have at least a 10-minute additional supply of
supplemental oxygen for each occupant at flight altitudes above
FL 250 in the event of a decompression. At flight altitudes
above FL 350, one pilot at the controls of the airplane must wear
and use an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed. The oxygen
mask must supply oxygen at all times or must automatically supply
oxygen when the cabin pressure altitude of the airplane exceeds
14,000 feet MSL. An exception to this regulation exists for
two-pilot crews that operate at or below FL 410. One pilot does
not need to wear and use an oxygen mask if both pilots are at the
controls and each pilot has a quick donning type of oxygen mask
that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready
position and be properly secured, sealed, and operational within
5 seconds. If one pilot of a two-pilot crew is away from the
controls, then the pilot that is at the controls must wear and
use an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed.

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Postby Ved » 17 Aug 2005 21:04

Dileep wrote:Nope. See the FAA regulation:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/acs/61-107.txt

It says:

(3) FAR Section 91.211(b) requires ......... An exception to this regulation exists for
two-pilot crews that operate at or below FL 410. One pilot does
not need to wear and use an oxygen mask if both pilots are at the
controls and each pilot has a quick donning type of oxygen mask
that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready
position and be properly secured, sealed, and operational within
5 seconds. If one pilot of a two-pilot crew is away from the
controls, then the pilot that is at the controls must wear and
use an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed.


I guess I assumed that contingency covered everything! Live and learn !

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Postby Arun_S » 18 Aug 2005 07:40

Ved wrote:
Dileep wrote:Isn't it true that one of the pilots are supposed to wear the oxygen mask all the time, just in case of a decomp?
(


No, I dont think so. In any case, in case of decompression, there's plenty of time to put on a mask - even if it's explosive decompression. And in case the window or door near you gives way, then a mask wont help!


Dev sir,
What is the SOP for troop carriers like IL76? There are no masks for those in the main cabin! How many sensors there are to detect decompression?

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 18 Aug 2005 07:49

The hints in the press are that the Cyprus crash was due to "suicide pilot". Wonder if they have found Pakis on board.

They say that a flight attendant who had a pilot's license may have tried to fly the plane at the last stages, but by then it was out of fuel.

The part about the occupants freezing to death is a scare clue. So the plane flew on autopilot and did not dive when the decompression hit. This could be due to the death of one or more of the pilots. Question is, did they die BECAUSE of the decompression, or from the bullets that also broke the windows.

The saga of the arrested 'relative' of a victim is also interesting. He said immediately following the crash that his cousin had told him he was "freezing". Now Greek Police say he was lying. Then how did he make such an accurate guess?

Unless he was part of the plan and couldn't resist blurting out the truth.

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Postby Singha » 20 Aug 2005 11:25

FROM IE PRINT EDITION(city express bangalore):(I am tying as not available online. This can probably be archived someplace permanent in IAF section).

IAFs flight safety award named after State's pilot

Shimoga's Suresh died fighting cancer last year.

by Anil Budur Lulla
Aug19, 2005

Usha Suresh is a unassuming lady who has succeeded in moving the mighty IAF for whom her husband once worked. It has accepted her idea to institute the Wg Cdr K.S.Suresh Memorial Flight safety award.

Suresh has won the Vir chakra for shooting down a pakistani Sabre over Talhar airfield in the neighbouring country. He has also participated in the famous battle of Longewalla in 1971. But his heart was in flight safety and always wanted to ensure that pilots would never be exposed to unnecessary risks.

Hailing from Shimoga district, Wg Cdr Suresh was instrumental in bringing IAF and HAL closer together after having accepted an assignment to be part of the PSUs flight operations and safety department. Usha told this paper that she was thrilled with the achievement.

Fondly recalling her husband, she said Suresh was very fit as he played golf and tennis regularly. I felt that he deserved to be honoured after he passed away fighting cancer last year. I had an idea to institute an award on flight in his name and the Air Chief has accepted it - she said.

The IAF has so far not accepted any contribution for any of its awards and when Usha proposed that she would meet the expenses for the rolling trophy, they accepted her cheque for Rs 1 lakh.

The award will be given away this September to the deserving from among a batch that will pass out from a ongoing Flight safety and accident investigation course. The trophy depicts an Himalayan eagle, the IAF enblem in flight. The golden eagle is for the officers and the silver one fore the airmen.

According to his former boss, Gp Capt (rtd) Kapil Bhargava, Suresh was an ace in aerobatic display who could take his Mig in a free fall very close to the ground and pull up meters away. "Kukke proposed a flight safety programme for all HAL employees so that they understand their customer. This helped change the view. There is no use in HAL or the IAF blaming each other every time there was a crash".

Bhargava also recalled that Suresh in battle mode once hit a sand dune and lost his craft's tail "But he did manage to fly back to base".

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Postby shiv » 20 Aug 2005 16:34

Singha - thx for pointing this news item out - I will try and acquire today's IE - unless Usha (Suresh) already has it.

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Postby putnanja » 20 Aug 2005 22:31

Link available in NewIndPress now...

IAF’s flight safety award named after State’s pilot

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Postby Ved » 21 Aug 2005 09:19

Arun_S wrote:
Ved wrote:
Dileep wrote:Isn't it true that one of the pilots are supposed to wear the oxygen mask all the time, just in case of a decomp?
(


No, I dont think so. In any case, in case of decompression, there's plenty of time to put on a mask - even if it's explosive decompression. And in case the window or door near you gives way, then a mask wont help!


Dev sir,
What is the SOP for troop carriers like IL76? There are no masks for those in the main cabin! How many sensors there are to detect decompression?


I'm guessing that all big aircraft (except fighters) have a display in the cockpit showing the pressurisation status of all compartments.

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Postby IssacB » 25 Aug 2005 01:52

KSandy wrote:I dont know if pilots are trained in simulated crash situations. If this is done then i believe the pilot still can keep his calm and find a way out. However if its not done then the point when the pilots smell trouble, obviously they will be confused and that does lead to mistakes.


I do not know if this qualifies as simulated crash situation training, but US pilots are taught to recover from unusual attitudes all tihe time as part of instrument rating training and recurrent training. Inability to correct qucikly will result in spiral dive etc. which wiil certainly result in a bad mess.

Disorientation is sudden in its inception. Perhaps other pilots here can speak to it at depth, but from personal experience, I just had a very narrow escape recently and I can attest that is comes on very quickly. Luckily, my training kicked in time and I was able to recover fairly close to ground as I was on an ILS approach with very low ceilings.

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Postby Ved » 25 Aug 2005 07:40

IssacB wrote:
I do not know if this qualifies as simulated crash situation training, but US pilots are taught to recover from unusual attitudes all tihe time as part of instrument rating training and recurrent training. Inability to correct qucikly will result in spiral dive etc. which wiil certainly result in a bad mess.



Absolutely right. Recovery from Unusual attitudes is practised at every stage in the IAF, and is something that is drilled into every pilot's skull till it pouirs out fromthe ears!

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Postby Ved » 15 Oct 2005 11:18

shiv wrote:http://www.hindu.com/2005/08/16/stories/2005081601421300.htm

"Pilot on ill-fated plane turned blue"

Helena Smith
Loss of pressure inside the cabin was likely cause of the crash

ATHENS: A plane which crashed into a Greek mountain on Sunday, killing its 121 passengers and crew, including dozens of children, may have been brought down by decompression or lack of oxygen in the cabin, incapacitating the pilots. .........

The pilots of two F-16 fighter jets that were scrambled when the Cypriot airliner lost contact with air traffic controllers in Athens reported that the plane's pilot was absent from the cockpit and that the co-pilot was slumped over the controls. ........
- Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005


Strange, but apparently true! There are apparently no limits to levels of incompetence! Read on.....

Crew confusion found in Athens plane crash
>
> By Don Phillips International Herald Tribune
> WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 2005
>
>
> PARIS The crew members of a Cypriot airliner that crashed Aug.
>14 near Athens became confused by a series of alarms as the plane climbed,
>failing to recognize that the cabin was not pressurizing until they grew
>mentally disoriented because of lack of oxygen and passed out, according to
>several people connected with the investigation.
>
> Complicating the cockpit confusion, neither the German pilot
>nor the young, inexperienced Cypriot co-pilot could speak the same language fluently, and each had difficulty understanding how the other spoke English, the worldwide language of air traffic control.
> A total of 121 people were killed in the crash after the plane
>climbed and flew on autopilot, circling near Athens as it was programmed to do until one engine stopped running because of a lack of fuel. The sudden imbalance of power, with only one engine operating, caused the autopilot to disengage and the plane to begin its final descent.
>>
> The Greek authorities have made cryptic statements hinting at
>oxygen problems but have so far not announced the full findings of
>investigators.
>>
> The people interviewed for this article agreed to do so on
>condition that they not be identified because none are official spokesmen for the investigation and because of political sensitivities arising from a Cypriot plane crashing in Greece.
>
> Investigators pieced together the story of the crash from
>numerous sources. In the wreckage, they found the first solid clues - the pressurization valve and an air outflow valve set incorrectly. Air traffic
>control tapes provided information on the confusion in the cockpit.
>>
> The plane had a sophisticated new flight data recorder that
>provided a wealth of information. There were maintenance records from the night before, and investigators interviewed the mechanics who worked on the plane.
>>
> Among other things, the investigators determined that the
>pilot was not in his seat because he was up trying to solve a problem that turned out to be not the greatest threat facing him.
>>
> The plane that crashed, a Boeing 737, underwent maintenance
>the night before. The maintenance crew apparently left a pressurization
>controller rotary knob out of place, according to the officials connected
>to the investigation, and the crew did not catch the mistake during
>preflight checks the next day. This meant that the plane could not
>pressurize.
>>
> At 10,000 feet, or 3,000 meters, as designed, an alarm went
>off to warn the crew that the plane would not pressurize. However, the crew members mistakenly thought that the alarm horn was a warning to tell them that their controls were not set properly for takeoff, the officials said.
>>
> The same horn is used for both conditions, although it will
>sound for takeoff configuration only while the plane is still on the
>ground.
>>
> The crew continued the climb on autopilot. At 14,000 feet,
>oxygen masks deployed as designed and a master caution light illuminated in the cockpit. Another alarm sounded at about the same time on an unrelated matter, warning that there was insufficient cooling air in the compartment housing avionics equipment.
>>
> The radio tapes showed that this created tremendous confusion
>in the cockpit. Normally an aircraft cabin is held at 8,000 feet pressure,
>so the crew at over 14,000 feet would already be experiencing some
>disorientation because of a lack of oxygen.
>>
> During this time, the German captain and the Cypriot co-pilot
>discovered they had no common language and that their English, while good enough for normal air traffic control purposes, was not good enough for complicated technical conversation in fixing the problem.
>>
> The crew members called the maintenance base in Cyprus and
>were told that the circuit breaker to turn off the loud new alarm was in a
>cabinet behind the captain. The captain got up from his seat to look for
>the circuit breaker, apparently ignoring the confused co-pilot.
>>
> As the plane continued to climb on autopilot, the air grew so
>thin that the crew became seriously impaired. The captain passed out first on the floor of the cockpit, followed by the co-pilot, who remained in his seat, according to the officials.
>
> The autopilot did as it was programmed to do, flying the plane
>at 34,000 feet to Athens and entering a holding pattern. It remained in a
>long circling pattern, shadowed by Greek military jets, until fuel ran low
>and one engine quit.
>>
> Boeing, the maker of the plane, is-sued a notice shortly after
>the crash to airlines that it would revise flight crew training manuals to
>stress to crews that they must understand how the various warning systems work and what to do about them.
>
> The notice stresses that the takeoff configuration warning
>horn will not sound under any circumstances after the plane has left the
>ground.
>
> The same horn will then be used only for a cabin altitude
>warning. The company notice said there had been other instances of
>confusion over the horn by pilots.
>>
> "Confusion between the cabin altitude warning horn and the
>takeoff configuration warning horn can be re-solved if the crew remembers that the takeoff configuration warning horn is only armed when the airplane is on the ground," the notice said. "If this horn is activated in flight, it indicates that the cabin altitude has reached 10,000 feet."
>

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
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Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2005 17:39

What a sad tragedy.

I wonder if a canary in a cage in the cockpit would have told the pilots what they and their machines could not figure out. Or even one of those decorative, inexpensive aneroid barometers that people hang on walls.

You know breathing and oxygenation is so important to surgeons and anesthesiologists that they go to great lengths to make sure enough is reaching a patient. Why can't cockpits have a foolproof design? It's dead easy actually That should be mandatory and not linked to other systems - because a conscious pilot has got to be a basic requirement in flying.

And that communication bit? How pathetic can a story get.

cbelwal

Postby cbelwal » 15 Oct 2005 19:35

I have always wondered at the wisdom of placing circuit breakers at the back of the cabin, even in military planes. In this glass cockpit age cant the circuit breakers be controlled through computers without having the pilot leave his seat, as they become cruical in cases of fire etc. Also why cant the auto pilot software have the cabin pressure as an input, to disengage itself or avoid climbing.

This tragedy is going to through up more interesting situations.

[quote="shiv"]What a sad tragedy.

quote]

dwaipayan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 17
Joined: 04 May 2005 07:52
Location: USA

Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft crashes, pilot safe

Postby dwaipayan » 17 Oct 2005 05:07

Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft crashes, pilot safe

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/608

Div
BRFite
Posts: 327
Joined: 16 Aug 1999 11:31

Postby Div » 17 Oct 2005 05:24

Not really a crash, but more of a runway "collision". Either way, this type of cr@p with deer/antelope finding their way onto a runway needs to be dealt with. Some more details here...

Nilgai incident raises security questions

Kannan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 98
Joined: 19 Apr 2005 23:26
Location: East Lansing, MI
Contact:

Postby Kannan » 01 Nov 2005 11:19

IssacB wrote:I do not know if this qualifies as simulated crash situation training, but US pilots are taught to recover from unusual attitudes all tihe time as part of instrument rating training and recurrent training. Inability to correct qucikly will result in spiral dive etc. which wiil certainly result in a bad mess.

Disorientation is sudden in its inception. Perhaps other pilots here can speak to it at depth, but from personal experience, I just had a very narrow escape recently and I can attest that is comes on very quickly. Luckily, my training kicked in time and I was able to recover fairly close to ground as I was on an ILS approach with very low ceilings.


Actually, US pilots have to have IFR hood training even for the standard VFR license. You need 3 hours "under the hood"/wearing goggles training. The instructor usually makes you put your head to your knees, close eyes, and then shakes the plane around, and you look up with the hood and recover with instruments. I felt a little airsick but nothing too bad.

It is very easy to misjudge whats going on, but thankfully I've been conservative enough to never have had a close call. I think my biggest paranoia is overbanking :)


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