Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Jun 2011 16:07

^^^True, 1 Para SF is reputed to have the best divers. Just like 9 Para has the best climbers. But it is all relative then, for example mostly officer's go for the Combat Diver's Course and the knowledge is then filtered down the ranks so the capability and flexibility is all there.

@Gaur: I dont understand the groups within part. Do you refer to the HRM Coys?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby silod » 28 Jun 2011 16:11

Can any member post the pictures of Paras in real action?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 28 Jun 2011 16:44

vaibhav.n wrote:^^^True, 1 Para SF is reputed to have the best divers. Just like 9 Para has the best climbers. But it is all relative then, for example mostly officer's go for the Combat Diver's Course and the knowledge is then filtered down the ranks so the capability and flexibility is all there.

@Gaur: I dont understand the groups within part. Do you refer to the HRM Coys?

Actually I am not too sure myself. I am told that that there are groups within each batallion. Eg: C group of 9 Para SF was responsible for the raid on Mandhol. Regarding the rest, I am not 100% sure myself (hence the FWIW). So, its nice that you are here. It is always nice to get things cleared from one who actually has knowledge about this topic. :-)

silod wrote:Can any member post the pictures of Paras in real action?

There are some pics from the Eastern front of 1971 war. You can search BR gallery for those.
There are a few modern pics too (some taken after operations). Anyway, during an operation, they seem to prefer travelling light. So, aside from Tavor/Viz-58 and headset, there is little to visually distinguish them from other infantry units (their BPJ and comm "looks" similar and things like sathi are now common). So, all the fancy things that you see even Para Airbourne (non SF) wearing in programs like Mission Army (like fancy orange eyewear, pads, orlite helmet etc), these are only used when strictly needed (like sealed eyewear for sandy conditions). At least, that is the impression I got after seeing the pics available on net.
Anyway:
1971- Entering Dhaka
After a CI Op (not 100% sure that they are Para)
During some ex
Ex Himalyan Warrior

vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Jun 2011 18:12

^^Gaur Saar. I think what you refer to are Assault Teams.

On a sidenote. I would request all who can to leave a message on this site to a very special soldier. He led one of the most difficult firefights in recent SF History. RIP

Thanks!!

http://majormohitsharma.org/index.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 28 Jun 2011 18:17

Thanks vaibhav

It was heartbreaking for the team in radio touch with Mohit and his men. They performed superbly.



the rest of the discussions is proceeding into speculation territory.

Its nothing fancy as one unit diciding to develop a certain skill - as i have mentioned before there are training capsules developed by the SF school which people apply for and complete.

Now some things just happen due to availability - see where the training center is and understand

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Jun 2011 18:28

Surya Sir, Yes it was pretty hard on the everyone!! Fantastic Guy to be around with. RIP

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 28 Jun 2011 21:43

I hate the Hafruda forests - napalm the whole damn thing

It has been a $#@$@#%#@%$ jinx for SF

We have lost a few really good men :(

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 28 Jun 2011 22:38


Thanks for the link. I tried to leave a message but received an error. Well, it does say that the site is under construction.
I hope that the site gets completed soon and we get to know more about this great man.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Jun 2011 22:56

Surya wrote:I hate the Hafruda forests - napalm the whole damn thing

It has been a $#@$@#%#@%$ jinx for SF

We have lost a few really good men :(


I have heard the Lolab Valley is a close second.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Jun 2011 22:58

Gaur wrote:

Thanks for the link. I tried to leave a message but received an error. Well, it does say that the site is under construction.
I hope that the site gets completed soon and we get to know more about this great man.


Yes sorry about that. You can however go through the picture gallery some nice camo Tavor pics.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 28 Jun 2011 22:58

Gaur, the talk of Tier I SF unit at strategic level along with counter parts from IN and AF is worth exploring. Because AFAIK, the objective is to have SF Battalion per Command. And here again, one needs to go into the history of evolution of SF...If anyone remembers, the shoulder badge of SF troops used to read 'Commando' and not 'Special Forces'. The thought process was that the then SF units were more into direct actions aka Commando Ops rather than classic SF Operations. Hence, the change to SF from Commando.

Infact, 1 PARA(SF) was the first unit where the organization was changed along the lines of SAS - it was the AHQ Strategic Reserve. Other SF units at that time (9,10) also adopted the same structure later on. Considering the proliferation of SF units, it is but requisite that some Tier I SF Unit (like SG - and it was infact raised on those lines if I remember the interview of one of its founding father) becomes the strategic reserve for such operations as Abottabad raid.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby KrishnaK » 29 Jun 2011 00:04

Would it make sense for BRF to host micro sites for our fallen heroes ? Easier to have all that information at a central location

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 29 Jun 2011 01:58

Camou'd Tavors galore in Late Maj. Sharma's album:

Image

Image

'Disguise':

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jun 2011 06:05

^^^Make the above dress a salwar-kameej instead of pant-shirt and we know what we're talking about.........talk about going native!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vic » 29 Jun 2011 08:28

A layman moronic question:-

Can somebody give a one line description of various terms that float around:-

Commando

Paras, Para Commando, Para SF

SF, SF Commando etc

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vic » 29 Jun 2011 08:52

Surya wrote:Thanks vaibhav

It was heartbreaking for the team in radio touch with Mohit and his men. They performed superbly.





Can you give link to a story which is nearest to truth? in your opinion

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Viv S » 29 Jun 2011 09:38

Gaur wrote:
Viv S wrote:The US Army's size is about 900,000 including the ANG - which makes it a slightly higher proportion of SF troops.

ANG is a reserve force and AFAIK they don't contribute to SF. However, if one considers ANG numbers then even the IA reserve has to be taken into account. So, any way you look at it, IA strength is much greater. And seeing that, Para SF is already a very trim force.


Actually the US Army Reserves are independent of the ANG and number around 200,000. The ANG on the other hand exists on the same lines as the regular army (philosophically closer to the IA's static formations) with its own armoured and aviation brigades, as well as two SF groups. A large proportion of its troops have served either in the regular Army or with the NG in combat zones (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and so on). It was the ANG that trained with the IA at Yudh Abhyas 2010. The Air NG operates cutting edge F-22s and B-2s in addition to other fighters.

In any case, point is the ANG does act as a 'feeder' for the US SOF, more so than say... the Territorial Army vis-a-vis the Indian SF units.

Also, this is US Army's SF (Green Berets) we're talking about - the Delta Force on the other hand is believed to have less than 1000 operators.

Not only 9 Para, every Para batallion has independence in that regard. By and large, they all follow the same pattern. However, they tweak it as per their need. Eg: You would have seen the combat diver badge many Para SF folks wear. That is earned by completing Navy's diver's course at Cochi. However, the vacancies there are scant. So, the Para SF has its own combat diving course (I think 1 Para SF was the first to start it a long time ago) and they provide excellent combat diving training themselves. And there are numerous such examples to show the freedom with regards to training.
Even during probation, each Batallion improvises where required.

Also, training for Para SF is not linear anyway. There are different fields available to them. Training is a dynamic and continuous process and each operator branches out to gain expertise in specific fields depending upon what suits him best.


What funtion does the Training Centre then perform and isn't it an expensive proposition having multiple training programs running concurrently?

I am afraid that I cannot say much about training and standards of SEAL. But when I look at the past operations of Para SF (especially the ones gone wrong where the mettle of the forces is truly revealed), my personal opinion is that Para SF are a bunch of as exceptional and filtered soldiers as you can ever hope to find. They are already a very trim force and I see no reason why they cannot be provided by the best of funding and equipment (other than red tape which would apply to even a smaller force). So, I see no value in selecting a group of soldiers from different units and sending them to a new unit. In fact, I feel that is very counter productive and I have explained the reasons for that in my previous post in much detail. However, even if one finds the need for such a model, then there is already SG and I see no reason to create another parallel SF with overlapping role. Anyway, the debate on the need of another small force can be a never ending one. Both of us have nothing but our own personal opinions. :-) So, let us just agree to disagree.


Well I don't think we can look at the Para SF as a homogeneous body especially after the expansions in recent years. They are bound to be individuals within it that are a cut above the rest (esp. among PBORs because of varied educational levels) - though not necessarily in the physical/fitness sphere. It could be proficiency with languages (how many operators do you suppose are fluent in Arabic or Mandarin?) or proficiency as an armourer or UAV operator or in intelligence work. Even among units - I'd bet the officers and men of the original Para Cdo units consider themselves (rightly or wrongly) at least a little distinct from their counterparts in the newer SF units.

Trouble is the SF operations are not all equally important. They may all be able to acquit themselves exceptionally well in commando operations, but when a mission to be performed will have an impact at a strategic level, employing a standard cross-section of operators from a 5000 man organisation may not be the ideal solution. Which is not say that they are incapable or somehow hampered while carrying it out but that the risks involved necessitate that very best assets being employed for the purpose.

Now the SG seems an ideal unit to carry such actions out - assuming it has been raised for that role and does selectively recruit from Para and SF battalions. Its independent of the Army's command structure, operating in practice as a part of the intelligence apparatus rather than a tool for tactical objectives assigned by theatre commanders. It may theoretically have budgets well in excess of Para-SF battalions, and free from PAC/CAG oversight. Also it should have access to resources from the RAW, ARC and JCB. And given that operations carried out by the SG are expected to be high-value, it makes sense for it to use the airborne forces as its recruitment pool.

Anyway. I suppose we'll have to .. like you said.. agree to disagree. :)

Cross training is one thing but unless I'm mistaken all activities conducted abroad have to vetted at senior levels, and having .. say an officer and a senior NCO imbedded into the Sayeret Matkal on active operations, is something the brass would tend to frown upon.

I am afraid that I am unable to fully understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that our senior staff does not allow PARA SF Officers and senior NCOs to take part in joint exercises? :-? If so, then that is not the case.


I'm referring to operations not exercises. Would the brass for example ever sanction embedding an Indian SF operator in an Israeli recon team deployed in Gaza or Lebanon?
Last edited by Viv S on 29 Jun 2011 10:39, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rasiklal » 29 Jun 2011 10:01

Before comparing our miserable selves to the mighty Khan'massa and the TFTAs and whining endlessly that we don't have a SpecOps Command, no Joint SpForces Command, no joint training etc., :((
pl understand that what Khan'Massa has today is the result of a doctrine, a strategic environment, and certain economic/political strengths. Whiners please read the Goldwater recommendations that overhauled command structure within the Pentagon.
Quick.
How many Para/Para (SF) were deployed in Kargil? How many in Siachen? How many SSG units did TFTA wheat/meat eating chalkasians deploy in these two theatres?
We have a different approach in these matters. Dammit some candidates at the young leaders commando course have already put in 2 years of hard work in JK or Northeast.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Viv S » 29 Jun 2011 12:25

rasiklal wrote:Before comparing our miserable selves to the mighty Khan'massa and the TFTAs and whining endlessly that we don't have a SpecOps Command, no Joint SpForces Command, no joint training etc., :((
pl understand that what Khan'Massa has today is the result of a doctrine, a strategic environment, and certain economic/political strengths. Whiners please read the Goldwater recommendations that overhauled command structure within the Pentagon.
Quick.
How many Para/Para (SF) were deployed in Kargil? How many in Siachen? How many SSG units did TFTA wheat/meat eating chalkasians deploy in these two theatres?
We have a different approach in these matters. Dammit some candidates at the young leaders commando course have already put in 2 years of hard work in JK or Northeast.


We also had no assault rifles, no field radios, no body armour, no NVGs, no UAVs, no AWACS, no cruise missiles, no PGMs, no C4I network, no amphibious capability and so on and so forth.

Today the IAF and IN define their area of responsibility as stretching from Hormuz Straits to the Malacca Straits and beyond.

To quote a certain Bob Dylan - The Times They Are a-Changin'.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 29 Jun 2011 13:37

vaibhav.n wrote:
Surya wrote:I hate the Hafruda forests - napalm the whole damn thing

It has been a $#@$@#%#@%$ jinx for SF

We have lost a few really good men :(


I have heard the Lolab Valley is a close second.


Sudhir Kumar Walia and his buddy Kheem Singh were lost in Haphruda forests. Arun Jasrotia was severely injured in Lolab valley, dying later in hospital after a tough battle for life.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 29 Jun 2011 13:43

rasiklal wrote:How many Para/Para (SF) were deployed in Kargil? How many in Siachen? How many SSG units did TFTA wheat/meat eating chalkasians deploy in these two theatres?

In every conflict that we have faced, Parachute regiment (including Para SF) has fought in it. This includes Siachen and Kargil. For instance, Major Sudhir Walia and Major Dhaliwal of 9 Para SF had led very daring and famous attack on Zulu 1 during Kargil War.
Also, SSG has been part of both Kargil War and Siachen Conflict. Hell, even some terrorists that cross the border are ex SSG (ex only in technicality). In Siachen, our SDRE JAKLI had captured Bana Post from super duper SSG only. :twisted:

VivS,
I will not delve more into this topic as I have said all that I had to say and anything more will only be either repetition or garbage. :-)

On a side note, I didn't knew that ANG contributes to SF. So thanks for that. Also, regarding Yudh Abhyas:
http://www.army.mil/article/47443/
Soldiers from the 4th Brigade Combat Team (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, 79th Infantry Brigade Combat Team (National Guard) and Indian Army soldiers from the 62nd Infantry and 5th Parachute Regiment Brigade, are the active participants in Yudh Abhyas 2010

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 29 Jun 2011 13:47

vaibhav.n wrote:
Yes sorry about that. You can however go through the picture gallery some nice camo Tavor pics.

Yes, I went through that. It was an amazing gallery. The photographs of Maj Sharma with his child were specially heart wrenching.
BTW, is there any plan to upload higher resolution images to the site (especially for the Army days section)?
Last edited by Gaur on 29 Jun 2011 13:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 29 Jun 2011 13:49

Viv S wrote:
rasiklal wrote:Before ........................ Goldwater recommendations that overhauled command structure within the Pentagon...............................east.


We ........................and so on and so forth.

Today the IAF and IN define their area of responsibility as stretching from Hormuz Straits to the Malacca Straits and beyond.

To ..........................................................a-Changin'[/url].


And I think, the above statement summarises why things will change whether it is in terms of stuff like weaponry or SF Command or Theatre Commands or JCS, or any of what has been recommended at various times.

The ability to make things happen in terms of economic resources, makes possible the changes in Doctrines and Strategies. The fact that the economic means have started to become available, is the reason why IAF and IN can start talking openly about the area of responsibility being what it is now. And my sense is that IAF and IN are talking about it only because Government at the highest levels now probably has thought it through that IAF and IN should now define it like that openly.

India's version of Monroe doctrine will be a function of our ability to make it happen.

So while there is naturally a need to critique our lack of "Will to Power", my sense is that most of what we want will follow now.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 29 Jun 2011 13:50

If memory serves right, there is a short story in OP Sabharwal's book about Major Dhaliwal and how he carried Kaushal Yadav's body down from the peaks during Kargil.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Anuj A » 29 Jun 2011 18:46

Hey guys check It out:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Look at these pics!!! I didn't realise IA SF went for camo'd weapons (other than camo cloth wrapped round them that is )

Taken from this hero's site:

Image

Major Mohit Sharma(1 PARA,SF), gallantary award winner 2004 gave a tough fight & defended the mother nation till his last breath of his life .These LeT militants were heavily armed & this encounter has been the longest & bloodiest of all in the recent times.Very few of the soldiers actually get a chance to live their dream ..He has lived his dream to do something dynamic for the country ...This Martyr was cremated on the same day as Shaheed Divas ,23rd March

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jun 2011 20:41

Abingdonboy: Please stop posting the same thing in multiple threads. Also these pictures were posted in the previous page of this thread. Also a reminder to please change your username as per forum guidelines. Thank You.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jun 2011 22:32

From Livefist --> Paratrooper Rajan and family. He killed 3 terrorists in an encounter.

http://twitpic.com/4mcrkh

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Anuj A » 29 Jun 2011 22:54

Rakesh wrote:Abingdonboy: Please stop posting the same thing in multiple threads. Also these pictures were posted in the previous page of this thread. Also a reminder to please change your username as per forum guidelines. Thank You.

Sorry I didn't see those pics, an I am unaware of the forum guidelines regarding my username- please educate me.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 30 Jun 2011 09:34

in the 3rd snow unit pic, the person on extreme left seems to have a bag for golf clubs, but with its top cover removed. the end of a Shipon rocket seems to be sticking out of it (!)
or am I seeing things and this is just the std heavy backpack for extended ops?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 30 Jun 2011 10:09

^^ That guy would pass off for a unwashed TFTA mujahid in any country!!!!

Now imagine the poor Paki hiking in those high passes to reach SDRE land and he meets up with these mujahid look alikes and starts off towards them with a "Salam-alekum" ( overjoyed on meeting a fellow mujahid after the lonely trek). Before he can even complete the greeting, hails of TAR-21 bullets would have lodged all over his body!! :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jimmy_moh » 30 Jun 2011 10:23

TAR-21 is the primary weapon for all Paracommandos.....? , some times we can see they are using AKs

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ParGha » 30 Jun 2011 16:46

jimmy_moh wrote:TAR-21 is the primary weapon for all Paracommandos.....? , some times we can see they are using AKs

Sometimes, yes -- but it would be hard to pick out the operators specifically from the thousands of other regular forces, police and militants who also use AKs, and I would be impressed if you did. Methinks you have more often seem them use Vz-58s; it is completely different from AKs. They have been using those since the early 1970s.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 30 Jun 2011 17:09

Now imagine the poor Paki hiking in those high passes to reach SDRE land and he meets up with these mujahid look alikes and starts off towards them with a "Salam-alekum" ( overjoyed on meeting a fellow mujahid after the lonely trek). Before he can even complete the greeting, hails of TAR-21 bullets would have lodged all over his body


Has happened.

met a couple of SF who had scars to show for that :)

obviously they do not carry Tavors in that case

just your std ak and pistol

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rajanb » 30 Jun 2011 17:41

Met one who had a couple of bullet holes in him.

But I wonder if there is a proper doctrine, which then translates to proper training, about when SF will be used. Used at the borders or in J&K is a given.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ParGha » 30 Jun 2011 18:50

rajanb wrote:But I wonder if there is a proper doctrine, which then translates to proper training, about when SF will be used. Used at the borders or in J&K is a given.


What do you mean by this? All training stems from doctrinal principles. Take the simplest text-book example: How do you do an opposed river-crossing? First you do a recce (mostly aerial these days) to find out the depth of enemy forces. If it is a 2-5 km depth (meaning a bttn force), infantry forces are broadly inserted behind their lines through an unopposed ground approach. If it is 5-20 km depth (meaning bde/div force), AB/AA infantry forces are narrowly inserted to attack vulnerable logistical-lines behind their lines. If it is >20 km depth (meaning div/corps force), even smaller SOF forces are inserted to attack/paint the controlling enemy HQ. Each one of these three forces are trained for their types of tasks.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby prithvi » 30 Jun 2011 22:53

sum wrote:^^ That guy would pass off for a unwashed TFTA mujahid in any country!!!!

Now imagine the poor Paki hiking in those high passes to reach SDRE land and he meets up with these mujahid look alikes and starts off towards them with a "Salam-alekum" ( overjoyed on meeting a fellow mujahid after the lonely trek). Before he can even complete the greeting, hails of TAR-21 bullets would have lodged all over his body!! :twisted: :twisted:


regular shaving is a luxury at such altitude... i once went for Everest Base Camp Trek...and remained unshaven for 15 days ..n started looking like Mujahid!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Riza Zaman » 01 Jul 2011 00:20

CQB training for Para SF has now incorporated mozambique drill - 2 shots center mass 1 shot head

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 01 Jul 2011 00:58

^^^Now whenever someone comes :(( :(( about why our SF wear scooter helmets, we can say that atleast they shoot like TFTA Abottabad Navy SEALs! 8)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 01 Jul 2011 08:29

regular shaving is a luxury at such altitude... i once went for Everest Base Camp Trek...and remained unshaven for 15 days ..n started looking like Mujahid!!

Yes, but i doubt you only kept your mustache shaved and kept growing the beard like the left most SDRE SF person has done... :twisted:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby prithvi » 01 Jul 2011 08:35

sum wrote:
regular shaving is a luxury at such altitude... i once went for Everest Base Camp Trek...and remained unshaven for 15 days ..n started looking like Mujahid!!

Yes, but i doubt you only kept your mustache shaved and kept growing the beard like the left most SDRE SF person has done... :twisted:


ah...good point. did not realize that.. !!!


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