Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Ashutosh Malik
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

Surya wrote:Thanks nelson

the former would be more interesting to watch
Hi Surya,

Wouldn't the former, i.e.IC 26279 Maj Gen Dalvir Singh, have retired by now, since he was a Maj. Gen in 2002? I found a reference to Lt. Gen. Dalvir Singh on the net, but nothing on whether he is serving or retired.

Best.
Ashutosh
Surya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

ashutosh

I would not know - I think Nelson or one of the others are better on this.
ManuT
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ManuT »

Some of the responses have in turn raised more questions. Panzers held under the direct control of the "dear leader" was one of the factors on D-day. Not averse to a little premium as long as there is no down time.

Aditya ji
The article caught my eye a is something which caught my eye and decided to post. I can barely claim any insight or credit.

Like Singha ji, now going to pray that goods are in place. OM.
Last edited by ManuT on 16 Mar 2012 08:56, edited 1 time in total.
Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Singha wrote:RAW comes under home ministry and not the army right? imo its high time this force be absorbed into the army and infact form the core of one of the new mountain strike divisions, with every member being uniquely para certified. kind of like the 1st airborne division concept adapted to the mountains.

that would be far better use than sitting under RAW.
Saar the SFF is not meant for use as elite infantry or para-qualified infantry like our non-SF para battalions - SFF are special forces in every sense of the word. They have been (mis)used as infantry during '71 though.

The parachute scandal story sounds like a bit of BS on the face of it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

if they are SF all the better - it means we already have around 7 normal paraSF batallions and this nearly division sized force allegedly.

time for the drums of war. time for desi-JSOC !! each of the mountain zones can have some dedicated batallions of SFF for SF duty under desi JSOC. now that we have C130J (hope for more) / An32upg and lots of Dhruv and Mi17V we can finally get them where they need to be.
member_20317
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_20317 »

The scary part first. Brit in the video mentions 'Coalition forces' in the context of joint COIN ops with Indians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pB8j5IOGzw

The following is what I found strange. If some better informed member can help me understand why the people are doing the way they are doing it in these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5lIZYNt ... re=related
All Indian SF run fast towards first available cover at the same time and at the top of their capability
Then all begin to slow down at about half the distance to nearest cover. Could this cause the whole
team to expose themselves to risk all at the same time and everybody reaches the safe point at the
same time. Also at no point are they in any position to shoot while moving forward. Their positioning
to bring down fire on the opponent is very small because of this form of advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzXE6__hbgM
here the first few minutes of video shows how people move in with the advantage of fire cover with
least amount of exposure. But the single file advance may have its own problems. The opponent
has to set aim with minimal amount of change while the SF team members in the back of the file
cannot bring to bear their own firepower. Once they down the door and enter one at a time, again
the cover is not there. Team is relying only on the speed of ingress. However once inside they are
fast at covering all points of the imaginary room.


Also I like the fact that we have different types of schools for training SF for different purposes with SF guys getting some great exposure both within and outside India.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Viv S »

Raja Bose wrote:Saar the SFF is not meant for use as elite infantry or para-qualified infantry like our non-SF para battalions - SFF are special forces in every sense of the word. They have been (mis)used as infantry during '71 though.
I think the American designation 'Special Operations Capable' might be more fitting than Special Forces. While the SFF is no doubt composed of crack troops, the recruitment isn't as selective as the Army SF or Marcos. Also AFAIK intensive training for more unconventional tasks particularly CT and HRT is restricted to the SG.

Where the expansion of the Para SF in recent years has come in for some criticism for supposed dilution of standards, its not practical to expect more from an organisation that had a strength of 10,000 men when even the IA had only three sanctioned Para Cdo battalions.
ManuT
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ManuT »

Skydiver Felix Baumgartner on track for super jump

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17399985
Austrian skydiver Felix Baumgartner is well on the way to setting a world record for the highest free-fall jump.

On Thursday, the adventurer leapt from a balloon-borne capsule 71,500ft (22km) above New Mexico, landing safely eight minutes later.

The dive was intended to test all his equipment before he tries to free-fall from 120,000ft later this year.

In doing so, he would better the mark of 102,800ft set by US Air Force Colonel Joe Kittinger in 1960.
Wave of the future?
Lalmohan
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Lalmohan »

ravi - did you notice how the jeeps also went full speed and then seemed to slow down?
member_20317
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_20317 »

Lalmohan ji, you are right. In which case the whole video lead by Maroof Raza could be more like Dikhane ke Daant.

But then while watching these SF videos what I have come to notice is that endurance and individual shooting is something that these guys are demonstrating quite effortlessly. The thing that gladdens my heard the most is the choice of 7.62 ki goli in the open areas by the SF guys in the video.

The slithering in some other Marcos video was also quite smooth and greatly impressive for a layman like me.

We Indians miss out on some good learning because our media will generally supply only the Dikhane ke Daant. Now people like me are forced to take vicarious pleasure in SAS videos on the net, which I find much more instructive.
anjan
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by anjan »

ravi_g wrote:We Indians miss out on some good learning because our media will generally supply only the Dikhane ke Daant. Now people like me are forced to take vicarious pleasure in SAS videos on the net, which I find much more instructive.
What are you hoping to learn? All videos everywhere are meant for show ultimately. Otherwise we'd end up watching how people break their legs and backs while slithering.
Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Viv S wrote: I think the American designation 'Special Operations Capable' might be more fitting than Special Forces. While the SFF is no doubt composed of crack troops, the recruitment isn't as selective as the Army SF or Marcos. Also AFAIK intensive training for more unconventional tasks particularly CT and HRT is restricted to the SG.

Where the expansion of the Para SF in recent years has come in for some criticism for supposed dilution of standards, its not practical to expect more from an organisation that had a strength of 10,000 men when even the IA had only three sanctioned Para Cdo battalions.
Saar, the term Special Operations Capable is a pretty vague one - in the US it might have come up based on specifics of their interoperability and ofcourse internal Pentagon politics. SOC usually will imply that the unit is infantry which can undertake some SF type work during war.

Whether a unit is Special Forces or not ultimately depends on the task for which they were formed. The selectivity of admission is a subjective criteria since that varies across various SF units again based on their requirements. There is really no hard set threshold of selectivity which characterizes a unit as SF or not. In case of the SFF, their regular roles and tasks right from their formation have been consistent with those of special forces - SG has a more CI/HRT focus but that is only a part of a typical SF unit's responsibilities (lot of SF units don't even have that role).
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

FYI

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/46810306/Sp ... he-secrets
Special Frontier Force---unveiling the secrets.
(72 pages PDF - locked for free users)

http://bhavanajagat.com/2010/04/03/awar ... r-of-1971/
Image

MS-8466 CAPTAIN. R. Rudra Narasimham, Army Medical Corps/Short Service Regular Commission. During the Indo-Pak War of 1971, the Special Frontier Force under the Command of Major General Sujan Singh Uban conducted an independent military operation called Operation Eagle in The Chittagong Hill Tracts. This Op Eagle was planned and executed by Indian Prime Minister Srimati Indira Gandhi. Brigadier T S Oberoi was the Commander at the Force Headquarters in the operational area. Including myself, a total of six Medical Officers took part in this military operation. Four of us were recommended to recieve Service Awards. Major PCM Mehta, Surgical Specialist, Dr. Major(Honorary) Ramesh Chandra, the Senior Medical Officer, Captain Ashok Kumar Jaiswal, Unit Medical Officer of the Unit commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Prasanta Coomar Purkayastha of Garhwal Rifles had received Visisht Seva Medals as recommended. I was the only Medical Officer who was recommended the award of Vir Chakra. Major General Sujan Singh Uban, Brigadier TS Oberoi, Lieutenant Colonel B K Narayan, the Regiment of Artillery Officer who was my Unit Commander, and all others know the reasons as to why I was recommended to receive the gallantry award of Vir Chakra and not some other award like Visisht Seva Medal which the other three Medical Officers had received.Prime Minister Indira Gandhi's military operation known as Operation Eagle 1971 delivered the first blow in the Chittagong Hill Tracts and initiated the Liberation of Bangladesh.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

good grief :eek:
Aditya G
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/inte ... 83702.html
...

Since July 2011, commandos of the National Security Guard (NSG) have been conducting drills by touching down at critical installations aboard specially hired civilian aircraft to gauge their reaction time. Among the sites the NSG has covered are the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) project in Visakhapatnam, which it accesses from its regional hub in Hyderabad, and the Reliance Jamnagar refinery that the security agency reaches from its new set-up in Mumbai.

...
Why civilian planes? Can we not arrange for IAF aircraft to reach the airport faster than NSG takes to reach from base camp? I find it hard to believe.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by aniket »

I think this is because sanctioning of planes specially for the NSG will be delayed because of red tape.and using civillian planes is better than no planes at all.Although I hope this is only an interim solution,hope they get planes specially for them or have the power to requisition them on priority basis.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by aniket »

I have a question,why are personnel of the ITBP used to provide security to Indian consulates abroad ?Also I had read that personnel of ITBP are trained in urban warfare and are refered to as elite commandos.I thought the ITBP was raised to guard the icy border and they specialise in high altitude warfare.Why are they being used in urban combat situations,can't other agencies be used for this ?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Karan M »

ravi_g wrote:The scary part first. Brit in the video mentions 'Coalition forces' in the context of joint COIN ops with Indians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pB8j5IOGzw

The following is what I found strange. If some better informed member can help me understand why the people are doing the way they are doing it in these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5lIZYNt ... re=related
All Indian SF run fast towards first available cover at the same time and at the top of their capability
Then all begin to slow down at about half the distance to nearest cover. Could this cause the whole
team to expose themselves to risk all at the same time and everybody reaches the safe point at the
same time. Also at no point are they in any position to shoot while moving forward. Their positioning
to bring down fire on the opponent is very small because of this form of advance.

Also I like the fact that we have different types of schools for training SF for different purposes with SF guys getting some great exposure both within and outside India.

Why are you getting worried about something so obvious - these people are moving and firing. Common sense suggests aimed fire is done when the gun hand is stable and is anydays better than firing at speed and missing (unless you want to suppress the target - for which normally one more person or two - part of the suppressive fire team will be providing overwatch, but these people are the assault team).

And aimed fire or any fire is best done when under cover as versus firing from the open (unless circumstances demand it). Which means, these people, the assault team - as the videos show - are running towards cover, slowing down when approaching it, as they don't want to smack into cover, and at the same time, aiming carefully at the target and firing.

Its just common sense and logic. Its the same when firing from a vehicle. Go & ask any armoured corp guy about firing from move and firing from standstill. In the days before the Arjun/T-90, firing on the move meant really bad Pks. The weapons platform was not stabilized at the level of todays platforms. So again, slow down, take aim, fire. And then move again.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

a thing I see in the youtube video of the OBL compound raid and again in the assault teams shown in the seal movie "act of valor" is now SLOWLY and DELIBERATELY the assault teams move , and never fire on full auto either. its almost like walking but in a planned teamworkish way. none of the arnie / SWAT style running around, gun on full auto, attempting to complete the assignment in quick time...except in cases of hostage rescue they probably they some time and move in slowly.
the only guys on full auto were a couple of people with SAW weapons and big box mags to provide fire along potential enemy escape routes.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Bingo....fire control is one of the most important aspects. For a SF Team, it is important that a target/adversary is taken out in first instance - you see, time is critical for them and they cannot afford to get into lengthy firefights. The opponents need to be taken out in first contact. In case you remember, one of the main aspects of the skills displayed by the militants in 26/11 was fire-control/fire discipline - with one NSG officer saying that it was as good as theirs. If you see the video of Para(SF) in that Times Now episode on SF, you'll see the same deliberate movement and aiming and firing - again, bunch of controlled shots and no auto bang-bang.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

and they always shoot for the head using single or double shots. very deliberate movement and no shouting, no wasted efforts, no frantic shouting or spraying gunfire unless its covering fire.
voices calm like guys discussing the weather, not in heat of battle.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_20317 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs6mds7j ... re=related

@Karan M, start at around 00:04 minutes. You will notice the difference between the two videos yourself. Maroof Raza video was more Rambo style. This one is absolutely perfect. And they are training for about 10 opponents. Notice how the 6 men team never risks more then two guys advancing, the ceaseless cover fire, how the two advancing men remain at just the right distance from each other as to not offer an easy target for a bunch of lesser trained opponents that they are most likely going to attack this way. Notice how the advance is taking perfect benefit of the heavy cover fire in the background.


For me the thing to be noted was the brief footage of the training for blade fight at 00:00:45 seconds (reminded me of Steven Segal movies). Notice the ceaselessness of attitude these guys are training for. Search for opening, attack, search, attack, search, attack. No defending, no blocking, all the while moving the hands to both confuse the opponent and to bring the weapon nearest to the point where a strike can be staged. Any non-SF guy from some other army would hate to be anywhere near.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Anurag »

I agree with Ravi, this hindi program from NDTV is probably the best i've seen so far on the Army's SF training. Amazing!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gurneesh »

^^^^ While the footage is good, i must say the reporting was a bit too cheesy. Plus, the reporter was trying to follow a set script of questions irrespective of the response he was getting from the other guy. Eg. he asks why M4 is better and before the dude can answer he abruptly moves to knee pads !!!. Why ask the question if you do not want the viewers to hear the answer.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

Pic: http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/ ... 81-000.jpg

INS Satpura lowers a rigid inflatable boat into the sea. Typical of how MARCOS would do during anti piracy operations - if Satpura were to go for one
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by darshhan »

Somedays back Singhaji laid down a similar scenario to what is happening in Kabul , in this very thread.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 674886.cms

Let us see how Coalition and Afghan forces deal with this.By the way such coordinated attacks are very difficult to execute without active mentoring/guidance/participation by Intelligence agencies/Special forces.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by darshhan »

In military terminology such kind of coordinated attacks will get classified as swarming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarming_%28military%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarming_% ... _terrorism
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by aniket »

Interesting theory in the comments section of the article.According to that person this was the work of the Pakistani Government to stop NATO forces from leaving so they can receive more aid.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=82341
The Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram laid the Foundation Stone of Composite Structure for the Counter Hijacking Unit of elite National Security Guard at Samalkha Camp, New Delhi today.

MHA has accorded sanction of Rs. 47.42 crore for the Composite Structure as a part of modernization and development project of NSG. The Composite Structure will have an area of 15502 Sqm and will have a four storey structure. The Composite Structure will have provisions for living accommodation for 540 Commandos, and Administrative Block, Training Hall, Class Rooms & other Operational and Training infrastructure. The construction work is scheduled to be completed within 18 months from the date of start.
http://airmarshalashokgoel.blogspot.in/ ... force.html
. The Op plan was chalked out at Air Hq and Army Hq. A para drop was planned initially. It is not widely known that 3 An-12 aircraft of ARC were already airborne with NSG troopers and stayed put at Nagpur.
A final decision was to be taken by the CCPA (say PM)-Shri Rajeev Gandhi) whether we go in for a police action or Mil intervention. By 1130 hrs all members of the CCPA had assembled in the Army Hq ops room. The wait was for the PM. Who was away to Calcutta and was on his way to Patna. He was informed of the emergency. PM walked into the Army Hq Ops room at 12 PM. He gave go ahead for mil Ops.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 543955.cms

Experts say the government must no longer dither in creating the SOC, one of the key recommendations of the 14-member Naresh Chandra taskforce report submitted to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on May 23, since the country needs to strengthen its clandestine and "unconventional" warfare capabilities to effectively tackle the challenges ahead.

"The threat of full-blown conventional wars may be receding but the spectre of terrorism, irregular, asymmetrical or fourth-generation warfare is looming large. Inadequately equipped Indian special forces are The Naresh Chandra report says special forces are not being used to their full potential. They need to be brought together under the Special Ops Command, which would report directly to the chiefs of staff committee and tasking for effective covert operations and counter-terror ,'' he added.

The idea for a SOC is of course not startlingly new, much like many other recommendations of the taskforce report that call for more effective integration of the three Service HQs with the defence ministry, revamp of the entire intelligence system and rapid infrastructure development to meet external and internal security challenges , as was earlier reported by TOI.

...

Interestingly, the committee's report has also recommended the creation of a permanent post of CoSC chairman, without impacting the autonomy of the Army, Navy and IAF chiefs who constitute the panel as of now. At present, the seniormost of the three services also wear the CoSC chairman's hat.

This is not too different from the 2001 Group of Ministers' report on "reforming the national security system" after the Kargil conflict, which had also recommended a chief of defence staff (CDS) to provide single-point military advice to the government.

Aditya G wrote:Thought of some fantasy desi equivalents of JSOC: 8)

Army Commander, Northern Command
- 1st Joint Special Forces Division
-- 1 x Para (SF) Bn
-- 1 x MARCOS Team (Wullar)
-- 31 RR (Para)
-- 22 SF
-- 2 x Garud Force flights
-- 155 Helicopter Unit (Mi-17V5)
-- 202 Army Aviation Squadron (HAL Rudra)
-- B Flight, 25 Sqn AF (An-32)
-- 3005 Sqn AF (Searcher Mk2)

Chairman, Chief of Staff Committee
- Joint Special Forces Command (Rapid Reaction)
-- 50th Para Bde (I)
--- 1 x Para Bn
--- 1 x Para (SF) Bn
--- 1 x Para Field Regiment (Artillery)
-- 91st Infantry Brigade
-- 77 Sqn IAF (C-130)
-- 1 x An-32
-- 111 HU (ALH Dhruv)
-- 114 HU (Mi-17V5)
-- 2 x MARCOS teams
-- 2 x Garud Force flights
-- INS Jalashwa
-- A Flight, 25 Sqn IAF (IL-76)
-- INAS 342 (Heron)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Image
wig
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by wig »

IAF flies commando plane fleet
The Indian Air Force, in an important tactical practice mission, simultaneously flew six planes meant specially for dropping commandos to test the readiness of the newly acquired US-origin C-130J transport aircraft fleet. IAF spokesperson Wing Commander Gerald Galway said the six-aircraft fleet of the C-130J took to the skies simultaneously from its home base at Hindon. The fleet was in the air for about an hour before returning to the base.
it seems that the message sent out is
Flying all the planes together indicates that India can rapidly airlift its commandos or almost a full infantry battalion.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120620/nation.htm
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by hulaku »

Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Aditya G wrote: http://airmarshalashokgoel.blogspot.in/ ... force.html
. The Op plan was chalked out at Air Hq and Army Hq. A para drop was planned initially. It is not widely known that 3 An-12 aircraft of ARC were already airborne with NSG troopers and stayed put at Nagpur.
A final decision was to be taken by the CCPA (say PM)-Shri Rajeev Gandhi) whether we go in for a police action or Mil intervention. By 1130 hrs all members of the CCPA had assembled in the Army Hq ops room. The wait was for the PM. Who was away to Calcutta and was on his way to Patna. He was informed of the emergency. PM walked into the Army Hq Ops room at 12 PM. He gave go ahead for mil Ops.
The CO of 44th squadron mentioned in the article, who was not supposed to be allowed to fly the 1st IL-76 into Hulule was none other than Gp Capt Bewoor (son of GG Bewoor, COAS) who has been a regular contributor of articles to Vayu and BR. The operation from his perspective is described here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... tus01.html. In fact there is a pic of him and AK Goel (the blog's author) in it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rajiv Lather »

While working in an oil marketing PSU I regularly met an ex SFF soldier. He was let us say, not originally from India, retired because of a leg injury and walked with a limp. He was about 40 or so and the only way to describe him is by calling him a "Gentle Giant".

I assure you, even with the injury and his age, he could if required, take on any 10 people working there simultaneously with his bare hands. And his hands, well I have no words to describe them.

Just to put it in perspective I have had a number of relatives in the Army at various times. But that man, he was a tank, a hulk and a rambo all-in-one.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Rajiv

Were his hands having a weather beaten leathery feel\look.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

Image

At the Mumbai minitry bdg fire
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rajiv Lather »

Surya wrote:Rajiv

Were his hands having a weather beaten leathery feel\look.
Yes and it looked as if he could drive a nail into wood with his bare hand.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

I recall someone posted the brief service history of Col brito on brf once...
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