Discussion on Indian Special Forces

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 22 Jun 2012 02:30

http://www.linkedin.com/in/bhushan1829 - peeps posting about their paracdo/SG stints on linkedin. what has this world come to

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 Jun 2012 03:01

Climbing hands!! IIRC, even the mountaineering geeks of Outside magazine, who wrote that fine Siachen article mentions their impressions of Colonel Kumar's physique at his age.

Rajiv Lather wrote:While working in an oil marketing PSU I regularly met an ex SFF soldier. He was let us say, not originally from India, retired because of a leg injury and walked with a limp. He was about 40 or so and the only way to describe him is by calling him a "Gentle Giant".

I assure you, even with the injury and his age, he could if required, take on any 10 people working there simultaneously with his bare hands. And his hands, well I have no words to describe them.

Just to put it in perspective I have had a number of relatives in the Army at various times. But that man, he was a tank, a hulk and a rambo all-in-one.

That bold part is the mark of a true warrior soul. Compare that to the SSG psychotic looking types that pakis (and even some injun jingos secretly) drool over. 24X7 useless aggression, that is gradually self-destructive.

Really glad he is around us.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 22 Jun 2012 03:10

24X7 useless aggression, that is gradually self-destructive

Wah wah Nairgolis

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jun 2012 07:43

Col Bhushan Kaluvakolan has clarified what the SG is:

Second-in-Command (Lt Col)
Special Group, Indian Army

October 2003 – October 2006 (3 years 1 month)

Second-in-Command of Special Group, the oldest Special Forces battalion of the Indian Army. Throughout this tenure continuously involved in the planning and conduct of intense counter terrorism operations in J&K.

Training conducted included building intervention, quick reflex shooting, sniper operations, fast roping from helicopters etc,.

As part of training, frequently rehearsed counter terrorist operations on important high rise buildings in the national capital and other important cities

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jun 2012 09:20

is this unit under NSG or operates under Army HQ?
why would a army SF unit practice for CT ops in NDLS when NSG is sitting on the job is a bit unknown...maybe the army keeps a QRT around to defend its own vast facilities in the capital like the delhi cantt.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jun 2012 11:46

Singha wrote:is this unit under NSG or operates under Army HQ?
why would a army SF unit practice for CT ops in NDLS when NSG is sitting on the job is a bit unknown...maybe the army keeps a QRT around to defend its own vast facilities in the capital like the delhi cantt.

Please to ask Surya for further details

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jun 2012 11:52

before the days delta force / ST6 branching into CT role also, the US army did keep a "hasty response team" in areas with high attack potential from soviet agents like germany. read this in a old book on US special forces.

now I think FBI HRT and the local SWATs are tasked for CT role. only a really dire situation of a mass "swarming" attack on the mainland US might bring out the military A-teams.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jun 2012 12:12

^^^Singha, Special Group is the oldest true "Special Force" of the Indian Army. The story as I know is something like this: The Parachute Commando Battalions were considered as oriented more towards limited cross border actions and some sort of elite infantry - tasked for operations which were beyond the normal infantry. Sometime in early 80s I suppose, a decision was taken to evolve a true blue SF with in the army and CT/CI and HR were among the objectives. Men were drawn from Establishment 22/Vikas/SFF and formed into a dedicated unit. In due course of time, this unit emerged as THE MOST PRIME CT/CI unit of the army - bettering the Para(Commando) battalions. Now, as one of the mandates was CT/HR like GSG9/GIGN, this unit formed the initial blue-print and nucleus of dedicated QRT for pan India deployment. IMO, it was to be more like SAS - both external and internal mandate. But in due course of time, SG mandate & blueprint for CT/QRT formed into NSG - driven in some measure by Op.Bluestar and need to keep IA out of domestic deployments in public view.

During the same time, 1 Para (Commando) - as it was then called - became Army HQ reserve and some sort of "super SF" with in the 3 Commando battalions at the time. Quite symptomatic of mess in our SF structure.

SG is "THE THINK TANK" of the SF philosophy in the IA - TACDE of Special Forces, if you will. Of course, it is an "active" unit with involvement across the board (as written in the CV of the good Colonel). 9 out of 10 people even in IA would not know about it - and those who know, generally keep a healthy distance from it. Given its heritage (from E22), it is very thick with the "agencies".

One of the reasons the Commando tag as dropped in favor of Special Forces for Para (Commando) battalions was that the word commando is supposed to mean limited slam-bang actions - SF means more evolved in terms of breadth and depth capabilities.

PS: Waiting for suryallah to come charging at me.....

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jun 2012 17:43

rohitvats wrote:.... Now, as one of the mandates was CT/HR like GSG9/GIGN, this unit formed the initial blue-print and nucleus of dedicated QRT for pan India deployment. IMO, it was to be more like SAS - both external and internal mandate. But in due course of time, SG mandate & blueprint for CT/QRT formed into NSG - driven in some measure by Op.Bluestar and need to keep IA out of domestic deployments in public view...

In one of the earlier posts in this forum, a comment by one of the founding members of NSG was found under a newspaper article on the web. He clearly mentioned that the two NSG Special Action Group were formed by taking the nucleus of SG battalion.

However, the timeline is not gelling from Colonel's profile. His story is from the 1990s. It means that the SG still had a CT/HRT role post NSG formation.

Another question mark comes from Lt Gen Brar (Bluestar)'s interview. Where he explained that the SFF was not up to task as a CT unit. And more for 'conventional' parachute operations. Is SG existed at that time, why wasn't SG pulled in for the ops?

why would a army SF unit practice for CT ops in NDLS when NSG is sitting on the job is a bit unknown...maybe the army keeps a QRT around to defend its own vast facilities in the capital like the delhi cantt.

Perhaps linked to the fact that SFF has a HQ in Delhi.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Jun 2012 18:06

Mums the word

except for one thing

Singha

as rohit mentions its the historical process so don't think of them now or 5 years ago.

Go back to Asiad times

Also think of some of the main characters who are the fathers of our CT story and look at where they come from

Lastly gives you a idea of how forward thinking the military guys who started this were before police heads were put in charge.

PS: I have never met this gentleman. but he reported to my friend in the SF at one stage. And one of school langoti dosts in the IAF ran into this guy at some conference and came back with a terrific impression of him. Word got back to my SF friend of this IAF guy asking lots of questions because it was a rare event

.

and then he finds out from me that he is my pal.

It was an interesting reunion.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Jun 2012 18:13

aditya

morale of story

the purpose of leaving you\us confused has been achieved

let it go

PS: things are changing so rapidly that even my friends info is getting outdated. so forget about decade

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jun 2012 18:59

Aditya G wrote: In one of the earlier posts in this forum, a comment by one of the founding members of NSG was found under a newspaper article on the web. He clearly mentioned that the two NSG Special Action Group were formed by taking the nucleus of SG battalion.

However, the timeline is not gelling from Colonel's profile. His story is from the 1990s. It means that the SG still had a CT/HRT role post NSG formation.

Another question mark comes from Lt Gen Brar (Bluestar)'s interview. Where he explained that the SFF was not up to task as a CT unit. And more for 'conventional' parachute operations. Is SG existed at that time, why wasn't SG pulled in for the ops?

Well, as Surya said, don't get into time lines to seriously as all this is based on morsels of information in public domain. As for SG still having CT/HRT role - well, as I said - it is an active unit operational across the length and breadth of the country and then some more. You remember the website dedicated to the memory of Major Uday Singh? He was with SG was he martyred in CI Ops in J&K. And don't forget that it is the one which devises lots of philosophy of Spec Ops for IA - which could well involve the drills as mentioned in the CV for the good Colonel.

As for the Bluestar and SFF - The charge on Bluestar was led by 1 Para Cdo (AHQ 'reserve' SF Unit) and SFF. SFF was chosen because of their non-Indian affiliation. And they are terrific mountain warfare specialists. As to why was SG not used? No idea. God knows in what shape it was then. But while SFF is the parent organization of SG, that is where the linkage ends. The men are drawn from the entire IA - and unlike the Para(SF), the manpower base of SG is more diverse. Officers and men from Signal, EME, ASC, Infantry are part of SG. Officers from Para(SF) are deputed to SG - where they have to again clear the probation of SG.

PS: Any guess who was the SF Officer who led the SF charge? (Surya, you're not to answer this)

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 22 Jun 2012 20:49

rohitvats wrote:PS: Any guess who was the SF Officer who led the SF charge? (Surya, you're not to answer this)

eerrr...Gen VKS?

Don't kill me if I'm wrong.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 22 Jun 2012 20:59

Lt Gen retd Prakash Chand Katoch
Team leader, 1 PARA SF

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 22 Jun 2012 22:07

PC Katoch got badly injured in the first assault by Para Cdos on Akal Takht (iirc it was right after the Guards went in led by JS Raina as scout?) and then they tried to assassinate him when he was hospitalized.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jun 2012 23:55

^^^Nelson, sahi jawaab....

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Jun 2012 00:00

Say, if someone is recruited in a non-commissioned rank like a rifleman, how long does it take for him before he can apply for a commando training course like the one in Belgaum ?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Jun 2012 00:06

The Junior Leaders course at Belgaum is for officers and JCOs onlee afaik.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 Jun 2012 00:44

Commando course is different from Junior Leaders course. The former is conducted in Junior Leaders Wing, Belgaum for Officers, JCOs and NCOs; the wing is a part of Infantry School. It is a mandatory course for officers in Infantry and Mechanised Infantry. JCOs and NCOs undergo Commando course after nomination from various units and the service at which they do the course may vary, with a strict upper age limit.

The Junior Leaders course is for JCOs and NCOs, conducted in Junior Leaders Academy, Bareilly and Ramgarh. NCOs Academy Binaguri caters for JLC of NCOs.

http://mod.nic.in/rec&training/welcome.html

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Jun 2012 03:57

I was referring to the commando course by Junior leader's wing in Belgaum (sometimes its simply called Commando Wing), not the generic course for all JCOs/NCOs conducted elsewhere. It is referred to as Junior leader's commando training camp by some folks though I am not aware of the official name for it (if there is any).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2012 03:59

OK. Let me put this debate on SG to rest completely. Below is excerpt from Lt. General R.K.Nanavatty from the book "Special forces: doctrine, structures, and employment across spectrum of conflict in the Indian context" by Lt. General Vijay Oberoi.

I quote:" Actually we have two SF in our environment today. They are the Special Group and SFF, notwithstanding what one of the panelist said about NSG. I will speak of them briefly. The Special Group has the political sanction and authorization for special operations. (me:he defines spec ops as strategic operations with clear political mandate which can be undertaken during peace time and in situations short of war. He considers Para(SF) as having high theater level expertise). It has the support of national intelligence services, the RAW and the Intelligence Bureau (IB). It also has support of ARC, which is denied to Para(SF). So, in theory and in concept, we have a force, which is capable of strategic special operations.....<SNIP>."

PS: Now, Suryaullah can't admonish me...all open source onleeeeee

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 Jun 2012 09:34

arrgh....rohitvats-saar

Now people are going to ask your for "links"....photoms of "western looking soldiers" for fanbois to exchange during meetups... A thirst for more and more info on stuff we never wanted to know, to quote Rumsfeld-mama "unknown unknowns".

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jun 2012 09:41

Interesting tit-bit in the Hindu:
Indian, Pakistani Commanders to meet in bid to end bloody LoC skirmishes

Highly placed military sources told The Hindu that the fighting began after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a jihadist unit. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers. Intermittent clashes continued through the year, into December.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2012 13:36

hnair wrote:arrgh....rohitvats-saar Now people are going to ask your for "links"....photoms of "western looking soldiers" for fanbois to exchange during meetups... A thirst for more and more info on stuff we never wanted to know, to quote Rumsfeld-mama "unknown unknowns".

hnair saar, jokes apart, IMO, people who are serious about understanding the concept of Special Forces, what it takes to evolve true blue Spec Ops capability and what kind of objectives it can fulfill, should read the book I quoted. The book also highlights the confusion and lack of vision in Indian context about what SF are, what are they supposed to do, what kind of objectives should they fulfill, how can the nation nurture and deploy them as strategic assets etc.

What I understood is this - SF does not simply mean having men who can withstand a grueling (some say even inhuman) 6-month probation and be willing to put their lives in harms way.

It means having clear political objective and mandate behind having Special Forces with political class clearly understanding that SF are "STRATEGIC ASSETS". For effective employment and achieving the maximum bang for the buck, these forces need national level support from Intelligence agencies and cross-service support. The OBL raid is prime example of such strategic objective being met by a bunch of highly trained men - but who required the support of entire US nation. Lt. General Nanavatty clearly says that cross border raids into POK for achieving objectives in CI Ops is not being SF in true sense - he terms them as theater level expertise. He also adds that our Para(SF) Commanders/Officers put themselves in harms way by undertaking true-blue SF operations with-out political objectives.

In the above sense, the western concept and deployment philosophy is crystal clear. The Delta Force+ST6 combine in US, SAS+SRG in UK and Sayeret Matkal+S13 in Israel clearly embody this philosophy of strategic assets used to achieve strategic objectives - the veritable spear tip.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Jun 2012 13:41

^^I think you meant SAS+SBS. I think in India, the term "Commando" is confused with SF and both are inter-mixed, misused and misappropriated a lot. Currently India has units trained to SF level but which are employed mainly as elite infantry.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2012 13:52

Raja Bose wrote:^^I think you meant SAS+SBS. I think in India, the term "Commando" is confused with SF and both are inter-mixed, misused and misappropriated a lot. Currently India has units trained to SF level but which are employed mainly as elite infantry.

I was actually referring to their new Special Recconaissance Regiment....yes, should have included the SBS on lines of ST6 and S13.

Coming to Commando versus SF designation, in Indian case, a study was done to assess the capabilities of Indian SF assets and requirement given our environment. The thinking is that the word Commando denotes "direct-action" type of capabilities (like our Ghatak) while being called SF means a very versatile force capable of operating across spectrum of conflicts (LIC-peace time covert ops-full scale war) with dedicated politico-military directives and objectives.

This study identified that number of SF battalions required is 12 and that we need to migrate to SF level capability - the equipment profile plus other associated infrastructure. The contributors to the book I quoted rue the fact that while we were quick to adopt the SF nomenclature, every other aspect of recommendation remains unimplemented.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Jun 2012 14:23

The contributors to the book I quoted rue the fact that while we were quick to adopt the SF nomenclature, every other aspect of recommendation remains unimplemented.

Exactly my point. I don't think we can get true SF capability till GoI starts seeing itself as a entity which can project power beyond our immediate borders and project them onto areas where our immediate interests may not be at stake, i.e. they are more forward looking in terms of protecting India's interests. After all, like you stated in the end SF capability is a lot more than some fancy weapons & black nomex suits. For that to happen, we need to first get rid of pseudo-Gandhi giri and Nehru style BS gentle big brother posturing.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 23 Jun 2012 17:01

sum wrote:Interesting tit-bit in the Hindu:
Indian, Pakistani Commanders to meet in bid to end bloody LoC skirmishes

Highly placed military sources told The Hindu that the fighting began after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a jihadist unit. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers. Intermittent clashes continued through the year, into December.

Lies! INC are weak onlee! Zaid Hamid told me this is hundred perzent kaafir propagandaa

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2012 18:29

^^^INC does not decide the actions of men on border.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 23 Jun 2012 18:47

What would the communication chain be like in such a situation? If an attack took place on Indian post and the decision to use SF for a raid on Paki post?

Thanks

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Jun 2012 21:14

Please bear with me, I need to know this.

If a soldier is recruited as a simple soldier (not an IMA officer or a JCO), what can he do to get into Ghatak Platoons ? AFAIK, these guys have special training on par with commandos. A lot of CI operations in J&K are done by these platoons affiliated to different battalions of RR.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2012 23:55

shyamd wrote:What would the communication chain be like in such a situation? If an attack took place on Indian post and the decision to use SF for a raid on Paki post?

Thanks

Shyamd, AFAIK there is a very well defined SOP for such LOC firings - and IA is generally much restrained. For example, one joke which Pakistanis use to tease Indians on LOC is that while they can do whatever they want, in case of Indian Army, the orders need to come from Delhi. Having said that, the use of heavy weapons is not done w/o clearance from sector commander or even higher authorities. But things are not always black and white. Commanding officers or Company Commanders may take decision as per the situation. As for use of SF - SF being a centrally controlled asset(s), the deployment and use cannot come w/o at least the Corps HQ - unless they have been seconded to Divisions on LOC.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2012 00:00

jamwal wrote:Please bear with me, I need to know this.

If a soldier is recruited as a simple soldier (not an IMA officer or a JCO), what can he do to get into Ghatak Platoons ? AFAIK, these guys have special training on par with commandos. A lot of CI operations in J&K are done by these platoons affiliated to different battalions of RR.

jamwal, the Ghatak Platoon is integral to each Infantry Battalion. It invariably consists of most fit men of the Battalion and those who would have undergone the Commando Course in Belgaum (but not necessarily all of them). So, if a jawan joins a paltan, he can volunteer for the Ghatak Platoon of his paltan - and if he is found physically fit, he will be retained. This platoon is led by a young subaltern. One more thing - apart from Para(SF), there is no other Special Force or Commando element in the IA - though, the capability of Scouts Battalions like Ladakh Scouts/Dogra Scouts borders on SF with specialized application in mountain warfare. And Para(SF) training is a different ball game all together.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Jun 2012 22:02

shiv wrote:Cross post
A Sharma wrote:Dhruv
Thanks for sharing. Really good documentary.
Dhruv has done HAL and India proud! The IA guys look scary.

What is the small gun the IA SF captain is having at ~3:00 in the video?

Micro-Uzi?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 30 Jun 2012 22:56

^^Looks like a Micro Uzi but hard to be 500% sure since the mag is hidden by the white banner. But it is plausible since Para SF have been using Micro Uzi for quite some time.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Jul 2012 17:14

Raja Bose wrote:^^Looks like a Micro Uzi but hard to be 500% sure since the mag is hidden by the white banner. But it is plausible since Para SF have been using Micro Uzi for quite some time.

I'd wager it was a MSMC carbine. Or is it just wishful thinking on my part?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Jul 2012 17:32

NSG to pull out 900 commandos from VIP security for counterterror operations training

...the 11 SRG will be taken out from its present task and converted into a regular SAG-like unit for undertaking specific counter-terror operations.

So it means personnel with non-Army background will also be a part of the SAG henceforth? Why couldn't they just raise another battalion from the Army instead of taking a short cut?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Jul 2012 18:20

Dmurphy wrote:NSG to pull out 900 commandos from VIP security for counterterror operations training
...the 11 SRG will be taken out from its present task and converted into a regular SAG-like unit for undertaking specific counter-terror operations.

This is an excellent development. I have been hoping for this for a long time indeed.

Dmurphy wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:^^Looks like a Micro Uzi but hard to be 500% sure since the mag is hidden by the white banner. But it is plausible since Para SF have been using Micro Uzi for quite some time.
I'd wager it was a MSMC carbine. Or is it just wishful thinking on my part?

Nope...thats Micro Uzi for sure.

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 01 Jul 2012 22:30

Dmurphy wrote:NSG to pull out 900 commandos from VIP security for counterterror operations training
...the 11 SRG will be taken out from its present task and converted into a regular SAG-like unit for undertaking specific counter-terror operations.
So it means personnel with non-Army background will also be a part of the SAG henceforth? Why couldn't they just raise another battalion from the Army instead of taking a short cut?

Finally, some real Indians will be protected from jihadists

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Jul 2012 23:31

^^
Apart from that, hopefully a day will come when IA soldiers will not be required to be deputed to NSG.