Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vaibhav.n »

RajitO wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:I think 9 and 4 Para are with Northern Command, 1 Para with Western Command, 3 Para with South Western Command, 2 and 10 Para with Southern Command and 11 & 21 Para with Eastern Command.
10 Para (SF) with Southern or South Western? If there has been a change, the "desert heritage" part will be kissed goodbye for good!
umm...How so, Southern Command still has large tracts of desert in its AoR :-?

More importantly, How are regional hubs a lousy idea?

Keeping in mind that most state governments cannot fund/raise own units on their own....
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

vaibhav.n wrote:
umm...How so, Southern Command still has large tracts of desert in its AoR :-?
Sure, I was referring more to the paltan's heritage and recruitment from Rajasthan in particular, including its most famous Royal! Thought once they made South Western Command's HQ Jaipur they would put these folks under it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

vaibhav.n wrote:
More importantly, How are regional hubs a lousy idea?

Keeping in mind that most state governments cannot fund/raise own units on their own....
Did I say most state governments should fund them?

Regional Hubs are an "impractical idea". Reasons stated above and elsewhere, by a few folks!
Karan M
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Karan M »

Rohit, the regional hubs idea was apparently NSGs per the book "The Siege" and the reason is exactly as you cite, the NSG did a forensic analysis of all the time lost post the event and it apparently swung the issue.

So, basically, all this brouhaha about "empire building" by other folks and similar stuff is the usual pointless claptrap one gets to hear. Basically the point is simple, travel times, bureaucratic rubbish delaying movements & exactly as you make that a force in being is necessary to take into account all these contingencies. The regional hubs must be given the funding and infrastructure to become Manesar level equivalents.

I am typing these excerpts out so please excuse the snippets. Will screen shot later on when i have some time.
The Black Cats created a forensic account of every minute wasted and submitted it to the Home Ministry. It is an astonishing document that still makes soldiers angry and details how a combined task force was unofficially mobilized at 10:05 pm on Wed, 26 Nov 2008, just 22 min after the first shots were fired in Leopolds. By 10:30 pm, the Black Cats were ready to deploy to the technical area at Palam, but it would take another 70 min for the Cabinet Sec, the highest civil servant in the land, to contact the NSG Chief Dutt, warning of a mobilization without giving the go ahead, or revealing the transport arrangements.

At 00:12, the Joint Sec(Pol) called the NSG also warning the mobilization was likely, without giving the green light..
...and it goes on to say the NSG finally left at 2:30 am. And in between another cause of delay, detour to pick up the Home Secretary from the residence.
The NSG report also reported earlier warnings that had been submitted to the Ministry as far back as 2006. Then Dutt had written to explain that its mobilization strategy was "critically flawed". From Delhi, it took more than 2.5 hours flying time to reach most other cities. The NSG proposed creating four regional hubs, but the proposals went unanswered. So did a second report advising that the Black Cats were "limping along" because of corruption and lethargy in procurement. Presently the men were "woefully ill equipped". Applications for light weight boots, Kevlar helmets and modern body armor, as well as hands free communication devices, were in limbo.
..etc
When the NSG flew into Mumbai it was a triumph of men over machinery, chief Dutt reflected to us. The only thing the NSG could be glad about touching down in the city, was that eight months earlier when they had been deputed to secure a meeting in Delhi, chief Dutt had insisted that thirty Black Cats don their civvies to mingle in a five star hotel, the first time any of them had been inside a luxurious establishment.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

RajitO wrote: 10 Para (SF) with Southern or South Western? If there has been a change, the "desert heritage" part will be kissed goodbye for good!
10 Para (SF) continues to be in their historical location in Jodhpur - so I doubt it would be with SW Command. Should still be with Southern Command.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

RajitO wrote: So, you have answered your own question. From a "uniquely Indian" understanding of how we work and our systems, why embark on an exercise which has a high degree of failure. Also why not reflect why countries with similar (not same) expanses have opted for a different type of "decentralization", as the kind of ideal being sought by us does not work in practical terms, even in advanced nations.
From my perch, I see three distinct ways to look at the regional hub business.

1. Professional - the regional hubs - IN THEIR PRESENT AVATAR - are a bad idea because of multiple reasons. The act of creating hubs being more symbolic and ad-hoc being the prime reasons. As usual, people in charge did not think through the whole idea and created a half-baked capability. I've already aired my views on how I would want the regional hub to be - something on the lines of hub and spoke model where Manesar is the Force HQ (administration+manpower planning+training+equipment+liaison) and brain of the force while regional hubs are the actual contact points for a particular geography.

2. Bureaucratic - Men have been put on ground and we're done with handling the situation. The professional looks at this approach from powers that be and cringes and complains about inadequacy (and may be futility) of it all.

3. Something-is-better-than-nothing - Common man and I daresay, commonsense response. If yellow matter hits the fan, there is 'SOMEONE' and 'SOMETHING' to handle the situation; we're not nude and all that stuff. Some good might still come from this half-baked effort by Indian babucracy.

I want (1) but will settle for (3) for a simple reason that given the lackadaisical attitude of Indian political and bureaucratic set-up to such situations, the regional hubs and NSG teams (which I think are composite teams and not only from SAG) may well be able to save a few lives.
Actually, let me make this argument even more extreme....which you probably missed from my earlier post. With the active shooter threat, you literally have a "Domino's type" response required of 30 minutes - if the idea is to minimize civilian casualties, not just say "got the ba$%^&*#" . On the surface of it this would make the regional hubs a no-brainer...no? Except we are not able to deliver on those. Please think more on this - this requires a different type of decentralization...but one that is less visible, and hampers empire builders, Ironically, our military SFs already do this in their specialized domains.
Well, the idea of regional hubs is pertinent to our security situation - bad execution of the idea should not negate its usefulness. As I said in previous paragraph, I'll take whatever comes. The lack of understanding on such matters in our leadership and decision makers is a given - we cannot wait for them to develop grey matter for such issues. While you're right in saying that whatever is being done is not optimal and will end up not meeting the objectives set out for it - I'll be happy even if it meets 50% of the laid down objectives and tasks. One cannot wait for Godot.

And I talk about decentralization of NSG only from physical presence perspective and not command & control - the C&C of the force needs to be done at the highest level.

Actually, this is where something like JSOC of Joint Special Forces Command would make most sense - it can respond to a situation in the best possible manner by utilizing resources best placed to address the emergency.

BTW - I did not get your point about IA SF.
Even in your statement, the lead in is from a conventional sub-text that underlines your POV. I have already flagged off the problem with viewing things from that prism.
I mentioned about the conventional strength of IA from the context of resource pool for creating SF units/soldiers over a long run. Quality and quantity debate needs to be seen in context. US Army has a much lesser pool of soldiers from where to get volunteers for their special forces - our pool is much wider. With right kind of incentives and human resource policies, it should not be difficult to get the volunteers who opt for special forces - the strength can be build up over time w/o compromising on the quality. Please be advised that I'm no where suggesting something like mass conversion of entire paltan to special force role.

And it is my assumption that the requirements and selection criteria for NSG are not of the same as Para (SF).

We have a clear and present danger - regional hubs in present avatar are inadequate. But the concept is pertinent to our requirement. And we need to plan out and implement solution to take care of the problem in the long run.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

rohitvats wrote:
RajitO wrote: 10 Para (SF) with Southern or South Western? If there has been a change, the "desert heritage" part will be kissed goodbye for good!
10 Para (SF) continues to be in their historical location in Jodhpur - so I doubt it would be with SW Command. Should still be with Southern Command.
Which is curious since when South Western Command was created, the understanding was that Rajasthan would be their bailiwick. In any case, none of these chaps operate in tight geographical constraints - Capt. Sajjan Singh Malik - a Churu native won his KC (posthomous) battling it out in Baramulla.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

rohitvats wrote:
3. Something-is-better-than-nothing - Common man and I daresay, commonsense response. If yellow matter hits the fan, there is 'SOMEONE' and 'SOMETHING' to handle the situation; we're not nude and all that stuff. Some good might still come from this half-baked effort by Indian babucracy.

I want (1) but will settle for (3) for a simple reason that given the lackadaisical attitude of Indian political and bureaucratic set-up to such situations, the regional hubs and NSG teams (which I think are composite teams and not only from SAG) may well be able to save a few lives.
I) Got it on points 1 and 2 and actually there is not much to differ on this. Any reasonable observer of goings on with our CT response will echo it.

Why one has a more "cussed" response to point 3, is simple:

a) Something will be better than nothing, next time in Mumbai. But what about Ahmedabad, Jaipur, or Agra?
The chaps who planned 26/11 were so ahead in the game, what makes us think they will attack "protected" cities the next time around?

b) The 2 Para (SF) guys will do a great take down in some IT Park in Bangalore. What will they do with a hijacked Airbus at Bangalore International Airport?

The public and the media has been sold an image of black dungareed, MP5-toting, Kevlar clad "brown" knights, who despite their best efforts will not be up to the range of hyper-specialized situations which fall even under the catch-all term of Urban CT Ops.
Well, the idea of regional hubs is pertinent to our security situation - bad execution of the idea should not negate its usefulness. As I said in previous paragraph, I'll take whatever comes. The lack of understanding on such matters in our leadership and decision makers is a given - we cannot wait for them to develop grey matter for such issues. While you're right in saying that whatever is being done is not optimal and will end up not meeting the objectives set out for it - I'll be happy even if it meets 50% of the laid down objectives and tasks. One cannot wait for Godot.

And I talk about decentralization of NSG only from physical presence perspective and not command & control - the C&C of the force needs to be done at the highest level.

Actually, this is where something like JSOC of Joint Special Forces Command would make most sense - it can respond to a situation in the best possible manner by utilizing resources best placed to address the emergency.

BTW - I did not get your point about IA SF.
II) Actually, you have answered it in a way. All our Para (SF) units have a fixed base, yet assault teams and smaller components keep deploying all over the place - on detachments and rotations. Training, C&C, admin is centralized...operations are not.

Have you been watching the farce unfold on Special Group/Operation Sundown on Headlines Today/India Today? 30 years ago we had come up with our "JSOC-lite" structure including excellent "organic" air mobility. Yet...big-army politics, and other institutional apathy led us to lose the plot. The NSG was needed, yes, but its sanctioned strength was 1,000 operators for a reason.

And we have marginalized local law enforcement.

Don't know how many folks remember the real "Shootout at Lokhandwala" or the Delhi Police killing a Para SF-turned Khalistani terrorist in a residential building IIRC late 80s? We have been going backwards and ignoring lessons in history, all in the name of increased capability.

I mentioned about the conventional strength of IA from the context of resource pool for creating SF units/soldiers over a long run. Quality and quantity debate needs to be seen in context. US Army has a much lesser pool of soldiers from where to get volunteers for their special forces - our pool is much wider. With right kind of incentives and human resource policies, it should not be difficult to get the volunteers who opt for special forces - the strength can be build up over time w/o compromising on the quality. Please be advised that I'm no where suggesting something like mass conversion of entire paltan to special force role.

And it is my assumption that the requirements and selection criteria for NSG are not of the same as Para (SF).

We have a clear and present danger - regional hubs in present avatar are inadequate. But the concept is pertinent to our requirement. And we need to plan out and implement solution to take care of the problem in the long run.
III) If it can be established that quantity and not training, equipment, C&C, mobility, intel are the burning priorities...OK. Usually quantity becomes a fig leaf for all of these and in actual ops it's a debate as to what it brings to the table.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

RajitO wrote: Why one has a more "cussed" response to point 3, is simple:

a) Something will be better than nothing, next time in Mumbai. But what about Ahmedabad, Jaipur, or Agra?
The chaps who planned 26/11 were so ahead in the game, what makes us think they will attack "protected" cities the next time around?

b) The 2 Para (SF) guys will do a great take down in some IT Park in Bangalore. What will they do with a hijacked Airbus at Bangalore International Airport?

The public and the media has been sold an image of black dungareed, MP5-toting, Kevlar clad "brown" knights, who despite their best efforts will not be up to the range of hyper-specialized situations which fall even under the catch-all term of Urban CT Ops.
RajitO - your points fall under the category of professional's approach to problem solving as I outlined earlier. What you're asking for is a more in-depth analysis of situation along with a structure which can handle maximum/most threatening of gamed scenarios. However, as I said earlier, this is unlikely to happen given the structural issues in our decision making apparatus.

Coming to your specific points mentioned earlier - allow me to expand on my idea of a regional hub. Yes, I know I am falling into the trap of outlining the Utopian requirement versus what is available on ground - and how my fantasy actually highlights your concerns about inadequacy of current set-up. But what the heck! a man can play armchair general once in a while :P

(a) This is where I would want regional hubs to be self-sustaining centers which can handle crisis in a given geography. Something like Pune being able to handle Western India inclusive of Maharashtra and Gujarat. The presence of air force base in Pune can allow for basing of detachment of aircraft and helicopters for movement of troops. IMO, placing NSG in Mumbai makes them too city specific and beats the purpose of 'regional hub'.

(b) Given the extent of our geography, we cannot provide for NSG level troops everywhere. Ideal situation would be for the local police to have trained assets - at least 100-150 odd men - to manage the situation before NSG or IN/IA special forces can intervene. I would have NSG run modules (at Manesar or preferably regional hubs) for such such a body of police personnel from various states to create the local SWAT team for larger tier-2 cities like Ahmedabad or Nagpur or Surat or Baroda.

(c) To extend it further - the NSG regional hubs and basing of IN/IA special forces should form a grid which covers maximum part of India. We had a poster give us the details of Para (SF) battalion holding under each Command - a joint strategy to address internal security issue of 26/11 type should factor into account these units as well. Like I said earlier, I don't think it is too difficult to run the Para (SF) battalions through dedicated Urban CT modules - it would only add to what they are already doing while learning urban CQB skills.

IMO, the idea should be to maximize on the assets we have and make best use of them through integrated and joint planning.

You mentioned about hijacking situation in Bangalore and response of 2 Para (SF) - well, anti-hijacking is super specialized field and only one body of troops is trained in India to handle that. But I would expect 2 Para (SF) to contain the situation and be trained to not allow the a/c to run away to far-far land... :mrgreen:
II) Actually, you have answered it in a way. All our Para (SF) units have a fixed base, yet assault teams and smaller components keep deploying all over the place - on detachments and rotations. Training, C&C, admin is centralized...operations are not.
If I were to replicate this example in case of internal security scenario - I would want the regional hubs to provide the base from where teams can rotate to important/vulnerable areas under their geographical responsibility. Rather than come all the way from HQ in Delhi - something which is happening today. Remember the news about NSG traveling to A&N using the recently acquired C-130J assets all the way from NCR? Wouldn't the response be more timely from Chennai regional hub in case of an emergency? And if we managed to integrate the MARCOS group under Eastern Naval Command to respond to situations in conjunction with NSG?

I understand the availability of assets like C-130J would be limiting factor - and that is why I would want to integrate NSG into a grid comprising of IA/IN/IAF special forces assets.
Have you been watching the farce unfold on Special Group/Operation Sundown on Headlines Today/India Today? 30 years ago we had come up with our "JSOC-lite" structure including excellent "organic" air mobility. Yet...big-army politics, and other institutional apathy led us to lose the plot. The NSG was needed, yes, but its sanctioned strength was 1,000 operators for a reason.
My friend, you've just touched upon the most sensitive topic on BRF... :mrgreen: :P :mrgreen:

I half expect Surya to emerge from nowhere and send us looking for cover!

Well, jokes apart, let us look into this Special Group issue - I've been reading on whatever is available in open literature - which is pretty much nothing - and hope to put together an blog post on the topic.

SG actually has nothing to do with the Indian Army - except for the fact that men are drawn from IA. And from all over the IA including gentlemen with maroon berets and Balidan badges, or only maroon berets. This particular formation comes under the control of Cabinet Secretariat - which is the euphemism for R&AW.

Allow me to quote Colonel KD Pathak, writing in Special Forces: Doctrine, Structures, and Employment Across Spectrum of Conflict in the Indian Context about Special Group:

" The Special Group under SFF, which is presently the strike force for our civilian intelligence agencies should be reorganized with the best talent from the SF battalions, voluntarily for fixed tenure, and it should be brought under the control of the army, working directly under the joint Special Operations Committee."

The book was published in 2006 and is basically collection of articles and essays and discussions on the issue of special forces organized by CLAW.

http://www.amazon.in/Special-Forces-Doc ... 8187966394

So, we have a situation where there is something equivalent to Delta Force in our case but the control of which rests with 'civilian intelligence agencies' and whose utilization is outside the purview Indian Army. BTW, does it now become clear who SAS is likely to have advised on the covert action to take out Bhindarwale?

As is usual in our case, there is no coordination and well thought out planning - SG was spawned from SFF (but all Indian personnel) keeping in view the increasing threat of urban counter terrorism and desire to have SAS (surprise?) like force available for use by the executive in case of sensitive situations. And while this was happening, IA was itself toying with the idea of creating a 'super-commando' battalion which was again modeled on - you guessed it, SAS - and which was to function as AHQ strategic reserve. This is how 1 Para (SF) came into being. And all other Para Commando battalions also got modeled on new structure adopted for this super-commando battalion.

No one in R&AW thought it worthwhile to consult IA and use the existing manpower in 9 or 10 Para Commando battalions and upgrade the same to 'special force' level. And let me give you another data point - NSG was spawned out from Special Group; SG was tasked for what NSG does.

And all this happened by 1985.

So, we have this phantom super-duper special force (unofficially known as 22 Special Force, nickname Mavericks) which has best of the world in terms of ARC support, R&AW intel and weapons and all that - but is standalone force w/o any integration with other special forces in the country.
III) If it can be established that quantity and not training, equipment, C&C, mobility, intel are the burning priorities...OK. Usually quantity becomes a fig leaf for all of these and in actual ops it's a debate as to what it brings to the table.
Well, a country the size of India cannot do with only 51 and 52 SAG - even here only one is true blue urban counter terrorism force. Unless, we are OK with having regional hubs with mixed battalion with company each from SAG and SRG.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Karan M »

Basic common sense suggests that training modules and facilities have to be developed which can be shared amongst all Tier 1 and even Tier 2 responders while Tier1's train more intensively for those scenarios.

This business of hair splitting SF vs Para vs CPMF vs quasi SF/NSG vs non SF but Mil (Ghatak) will get us nowhere.

The entire stuff of only depending on NSG for these scenarios was flawed - while they can & should super specialize, rest of Tier 1's can get to the level wherein they can handle a Mumbai type situation & deploy enough manpower to make a difference as well.

If tomorrow, there are scaled up attacks in Tier 2/3 city, even they can cause mass casualties. The nearest unit, even if it is a Ghatak, should be rushed to the fight and not withdraw, overwhelmed by a situation they have never trained for (smoke filled rooms, pitch darkness, screaming, flashing light from guns etc). Or each state raises a SWAT. Ultimately, the military is best placed to handle this given their mindset, training and resources. At least in the short term.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Who was this Para SF turned Khalistani terrorist? :-?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KrishnaK »

Raja Bose wrote:Who was this Para SF turned Khalistani terrorist? :-?
Shabeg Singh
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

imo do the metro security forces (anti terrorist police squads) have the basic arms, BPJ and mobility training to engage in a street battle with packs of shooters, run them to the ground and bottle them up until specialized units arrive?

the way I see it, given our road network etc, the first responders will be the local police thana cops with a mix of INSAS/FAL/pistols. they certainly would not make the cut. so the shooters will have a field day for upto 2 hrs, until some centralized police unit with better training and CQB weapons arrives on the scene. these might be able to bottle them up but not really engage in a complex moving or maze battle. if a NSG hub is there locally, the gap between this and NSG arriving could be 0. but what if it happens in a tier2 city - the local cops will have to manage for hours. we have atleast 100 big tier2 cities.

so even in a metro situation perhaps barring delhi and mumbai, who have field deployed their ATS units, we are looking at around 1-2 hrs of free fire zone for the shooters before anyone arrives who can subdue them and run them into the ground. this is even with regional NSG hubs.

when the focus shifts from hostage takings to just wild shooting and bombing to kill as many as possible, heavy casualties are certain unless one can proactively catch them before the attack.

our revered 'leaders' could focus less on NSG hubs and other such defensive matters and stop coddling the naxals and islamists who freely run around in training camps in the hinterland, smuggle explosives, have political cover
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

KrishnaK wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Who was this Para SF turned Khalistani terrorist? :-?
Shabeg Singh
er...what?! :eek: :rotfl: Shabeg Singh was never Para SF, died during Op. Bluestar rather than in the late 80s, was killed by the Indian Army in the Akal Takht rather than the Delhi Police in a residential area in Delhi. My grandfather knew him slightly when he was posted in NE.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sarabpal.s »

Raja Bose wrote:
er...what?! :eek: :rotfl: Shabeg Singh was never Para SF, died during Op. Bluestar rather than in the late 80s, was killed by the Indian Army in the Akal Takht rather than the Delhi Police in a residential area in Delhi. My grandfather knew him slightly when he was posted in NE.
Adding smile and making fun of what was happen in Delhi.
This is your standard of posting!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

sarabpal.s wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:er...what?! :eek: :rotfl: Shabeg Singh was never Para SF, died during Op. Bluestar rather than in the late 80s, was killed by the Indian Army in the Akal Takht rather than the Delhi Police in a residential area in Delhi. My grandfather knew him slightly when he was posted in NE.
Adding smile and making fun of what was happen in Delhi.
This is your standard of posting!
Where has he made fun of what happened in Delhi? Which, BTW, I'm supposing you mean the '84 anti-Sikh riots.

Go back and read the context before jumping to conclusions and making accusatory posts...
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sarabpal.s »

rohitvats wrote:
Where has he made fun of what happened in Delhi? Which, BTW, I'm supposing you mean the '84 anti-Sikh riots.

Go back and read the context before jumping to conclusions and making accusatory posts...
read what he said and also i am expecting you.
There is no need to mention which year he is talking about everyone know..
What Delhi police did that is too well known..
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

sarabpal.s wrote: read what he said and also i am expecting you.
There is no need to mention which year he is talking about everyone know..
What Delhi police did that is too well known..
sarabpal.s - I'm quite aware of what he has written and why. If you're not able to comprehend the same and are too eager to fly of the tangent, then the problem is yours.

Don't derail the thread by posting irrelevant one liners.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sarabpal.s »

rohitvats wrote:
sarabpal.s wrote: read what he said and also i am expecting you.
There is no need to mention which year he is talking about everyone know..
What Delhi police did that is too well known..
sarabpal.s - I'm quite aware of what he has written and why. If you're not able to comprehend the same and are too eager to fly of the tangent, then the problem is yours.

Don't derail the thread by posting irrelevant one liners.
i didn't want to derail, but what he said specifically is my concern
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

sarabpal.s wrote: i didn't want to derail, but what he said specifically is my concern
So, rather than posting in riddles, have the courtesy of posting your concern in full so that it can handled either ways and be done with it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sarabpal.s »

rohitvats wrote:
sarabpal.s wrote: i didn't want to derail, but what he said specifically is my concern
So, rather than posting in riddles, have the courtesy of posting your concern in full so that it can handled either ways and be done with it.
any body who start from top to end can under stand what we are discussing here no need to add more
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

Raja Bose wrote:Who was this Para SF turned Khalistani terrorist? :-?
The timeline IIRC is late 80s, unfortunately before the internet, so doubt if there is a link to it. At that time a very publicized operation, because it happened in a built-up area, in broad daylight, and notable because despite the NSG being available, the Delhi Police managed it, pretty well, end-to-end.

The larger point I am making, before we got derailed by the most unfortunate type of poster on this thread, is that discounting police and CPMF, to secondary and tertiary roles is a self-goal...and since irony dies a thousand deaths in this country daily, never before have we had so many "SWAT" -type local police units, only to frittered away.
Last edited by member_23455 on 06 Feb 2014 09:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

sarabpal.s wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:
er...what?! :eek: :rotfl: Shabeg Singh was never Para SF, died during Op. Bluestar rather than in the late 80s, was killed by the Indian Army in the Akal Takht rather than the Delhi Police in a residential area in Delhi. My grandfather knew him slightly when he was posted in NE.
Adding smile and making fun of what was happen in Delhi.
This is your standard of posting!
Go and re-read what was posted and in response to which post, before flying off the handle. I was laughing at the poster authoritatively posting a clueless response to my question rather than any incident which happened in Delhi or elsewhere.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KrishnaK »

Raja Bose wrote:
KrishnaK wrote: Shabeg Singh
er...what?! :eek: :rotfl: Shabeg Singh was never Para SF, died during Op. Bluestar rather than in the late 80s, was killed by the Indian Army in the Akal Takht rather than the Delhi Police in a residential area in Delhi. My grandfather knew him slightly when he was posted in NE.
My mistake, I thought it was Shabeg Singh.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

rohitvats wrote:
RajitO - your points fall under the category of professional's approach to problem solving as I outlined earlier. What you're asking for is a more in-depth analysis of situation along with a structure which can handle maximum/most threatening of gamed scenarios. However, as I said earlier, this is unlikely to happen given the structural issues in our decision making apparatus.

Coming to your specific points mentioned earlier - allow me to expand on my idea of a regional hub. Yes, I know I am falling into the trap of outlining the Utopian requirement versus what is available on ground - and how my fantasy actually highlights your concerns about inadequacy of current set-up. But what the heck! a man can play armchair general once in a while :P
That structural issue is actually very simple -our lack of SF champions - PC Katoch, Hardev Lidder and all are, at the end of day old-school. World over, you have had "mavericks" (ironic given the SG moniker) who took on existing systems and organizations. Most of them eventually got sidelined, hounded out, even jailed -- but before the "empires" struck back they were able to instil irrevocable cultural change.

It can happen even in India, love him or hate him, TN Seshan, changed Indian elections. (he also had a rather infamous run-in with the NSG :-o ) All our venal netas have not been able to subvert things to the level they used to pre-Seshan.
(a) This is where I would want regional hubs to be self-sustaining centers which can handle crisis in a given geography. Something like Pune being able to handle Western India inclusive of Maharashtra and Gujarat. The presence of air force base in Pune can allow for basing of detachment of aircraft and helicopters for movement of troops. IMO, placing NSG in Mumbai makes them too city specific and beats the purpose of 'regional hub'.
Let's examine this a bit more. Where have we borrowed this terminology from...from "hub and spoke" networks typically found in logistics operations of a Blue Dart or UPS...right? Where are our CT spokes? Given technology and mobility - which is where we need to be throwing money at, not manpower, why can't this hub be one location, and if 3-4 hubs had to be created across India, why not use existing facilities and co-share them?

Unless foundation stones had to be laid, photo ops had to be done, speeches had to be given.....
(b) Given the extent of our geography, we cannot provide for NSG level troops everywhere. Ideal situation would be for the local police to have trained assets - at least 100-150 odd men - to manage the situation before NSG or IN/IA special forces can intervene. I would have NSG run modules (at Manesar or preferably regional hubs) for such such a body of police personnel from various states to create the local SWAT team for larger tier-2 cities like Ahmedabad or Nagpur or Surat or Baroda.
And isn't it an irony that the NSG was doing precisely this third-party training before the knee-jerk post 26/11? The empire builders at the NSG couldn't wait to set-up more outposts of their "Raj" - leaving the men to fend for themselves.

Result: http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-b ... es-1569114
(c) To extend it further - the NSG regional hubs and basing of IN/IA special forces should form a grid which covers maximum part of India. We had a poster give us the details of Para (SF) battalion holding under each Command - a joint strategy to address internal security issue of 26/11 type should factor into account these units as well. Like I said earlier, I don't think it is too difficult to run the Para (SF) battalions through dedicated Urban CT modules - it would only add to what they are already doing while learning urban CQB skills.

IMO, the idea should be to maximize on the assets we have and make best use of them through integrated and joint planning.
But again, don't you see how the empire builders have used precisely this idea of regional hubs to "take away" an SF and local police role? :twisted:

If Marcos (West) had been given a dual tasking (they already run Urban CT/HRT/etc. modules from way way back) and Force One (which someone should come down to Mumbai to see what it is used for on the ground) as the support element, there would have been no need for NSG Mumbai.If the Greyhounds --one of the most respected police "commando" forces had been upgraded, they would not have needed NSG Hyderabad.

Yes, when a major attack happens, or better still intel warns you, then you need to "surge" and deploy, sometimes specialized skills. Which is where the whole JSOC/SG thing comes in. Let's face it...we confused a buzzword "regional hubs" with a strategy. Fortune 500 companies do it all the time, except they don't play for such high stakes. :(

Incidentally, there is a "tripartite" model available, ironically from the country that was supposed to be the inspiration for the NSG.

Germany, which "decentralized" despite not having the huge geography issue that we rationalize for India, has a GSG9 (Federal) - KSK (Army)- SEK (local SWAT) structure which they have implemented with typical teutonic efficiency.
My friend, you've just touched upon the most sensitive topic on BRF... :mrgreen: :P :mrgreen:

I half expect Surya to emerge from nowhere and send us looking for cover!

Well, jokes apart, let us look into this Special Group issue - I've been reading on whatever is available in open literature - which is pretty much nothing - and hope to put together an blog post on the topic.

SG actually has nothing to do with the Indian Army - except for the fact that men are drawn from IA. And from all over the IA including gentlemen with maroon berets and Balidan badges, or only maroon berets. This particular formation comes under the control of Cabinet Secretariat - which is the euphemism for R&AW.
Yeah, I have seen the running joke at his expense on this forum. He means well but IMO all the talk of SG is from open source, and some of us have been fortunate to have certain insights on it, which do not violate OPSEC. :!:

Thank God it has nothing to do with Big Army - that is the first (some say only) pre-requisite for being a Tier 1 SF! And because of the RAW connection it will always have an edge over even military SF when it comes to assets, resources, and intel...as you state yourself.


Allow me to quote Colonel KD Pathak, writing in Special Forces: Doctrine, Structures, and Employment Across Spectrum of Conflict in the Indian Context about Special Group:

So, we have this phantom super-duper special force (unofficially known as 22 Special Force, nickname Mavericks) which has best of the world in terms of ARC support, R&AW intel and weapons and all that - but is standalone force w/o any integration with other special forces in the country.
So why reinvent the wheel, especially on the contentious parameter of geographical coverage, when there are other ways? All of these ways are expensive - but too little capex and too much opex (which is what more manpower does) is even what Big Army is struggling with...that becomes amplified when talking about the SF/CT domain.

BTW, Col. Pathak has another "visible" claim to fame - this one is for the Trivia buffs and SG Taliban :wink:
Well, a country the size of India cannot do with only 51 and 52 SAG - even here only one is true blue urban counter terrorism force. Unless, we are OK with having regional hubs with mixed battalion with company each from SAG and SRG.
Do reflect on how the NSG went from a sanctioned strength of 1,000 odd to the current number? Did someone calculate that the threat had increased more than ten-fold. And if it has, is increasing numbers ten-fold the way we are going to handle it?

Hopefully some of the above discussion will allow you to review some of those assumptions. We can always agree to disagree!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

KrishnaK wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: er...what?! :eek: :rotfl: Shabeg Singh was never Para SF, died during Op. Bluestar rather than in the late 80s, was killed by the Indian Army in the Akal Takht rather than the Delhi Police in a residential area in Delhi. My grandfather knew him slightly when he was posted in NE.
My mistake, I thought it was Shabeg Singh.
No offense meant to you but before posting, please read the content at the source link. :)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

In this debate, one should not forget one of the original reasons why NSG was created.

It was meant to be an elite CT organisation with skill and experience of the Indian Army, without being called an Army. This was to meant to defuse the tension which comes with an Army deployment, compared to NSG which has the face of a police i.e. civilian organisation. Secondly, in our setup calling in the Army has certain bureaucratic and legal processes to be followed, which increased the response time. NSG being officially a police force has power of arrest and MHA control means shorter bureaucratic hassle.

Similar thinking lead to the creation of the Rashtriya Rifles.

I would like to know, what has changed since Bluestar & Akshardham attacks, that allows Para SF to be called upon domestic Counter Terror operations? And if they are 'eligible' for this duty, then why have the NSG at all? Further, do any of our self imposed restrictions apply on 22SF, which is neither the Army nor a Police force. If not, then why are we hesitating to employ them nation wide?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

not having NSG deployment near India's primary S&T hub was a political decision. remember whose govt it was back then at b'lore. the para SF excuse is just that, an excuse.

ideally, we should have 6 NSG regional hubs (N,S,E,W,C & NE) which also train and supervise state police CT/HR teams in their region.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rkhanna »

>>eally, we should have 6 NSG regional hubs (N,S,E,W,C & NE) which also train and supervise state police CT/HR teams in their region.<<

Post 9/11 the SWAT Teams of Major US cities had to undergo FBI HRT certification (with periodical renewals). (includes LA, NY, Chicago, SF, Detroit, etc). They will be the first responders in case of an incident (not talking about Highschool shootings or domestic violence cases here) - It is a simple enough model to implement.

One of the critiques of the Kargil war was that our troops so used to COIN warfare took a far bit of time to become effective in conventional warfare. Fear something like this could happen to the SF as well. an SF team should have HRT as a secondary skill. It should not be their primary tasking. Other skills such as long range non urban shooting, LRRP, etc will start to diminish.

As per Wiki the NSG has a man power of nearly 14,500 with 54% staffing the SAGs --> are these numbers accurate? If so dedicated HRT/CT teams spread across the country in conjunction with trained local police (in key big city hubs) would negate the need for Army SF to carry the weight of this responsibility with the exception of being a backup QRF for the NSG
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by srin »

Honestly, given the way the police is controlled by the state govts run by immature politicians, I'd rather not see NSG under them. No way to control what they will be used for. I'm actually very much okay with police being armed only lathis. Until and unless they get as professional as the military.

Para SF actually is interesting - because a Govt can request military assistance for emergencies (and they do this for natural disasters, etc). Only thing is that the communication needs to be quick
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

no one talked of NSG 'under' local police. that is simply an impossible scenario in India's admin structure.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

rkhanna wrote:
Fear something like this could happen to the SF as well. an SF team should have HRT as a secondary skill. It should not be their primary tasking. Other skills such as long range non urban shooting, LRRP, etc will start to diminish.
Ironically, the way terrorism is evolving, conventional hostage rescue has also become a secondary objective. You have active shooter threats and forces that go in need to have a higher predisposition for the "kill" - which in some ways military SF are already good at.

The folks who can multi task are highly selected/trained/experienced Tier 1 operators -- they can "change channels" pretty effectively based on the mission/situation. But they don't get manufactured in the thousands that we are currently obsessed with.
Aditya G wrote:In this debate, one should not forget one of the original reasons why NSG was created.

It was meant to be an elite CT organisation with skill and experience of the Indian Army, without being called an Army. This was to meant to defuse the tension which comes with an Army deployment, compared to NSG which has the face of a police i.e. civilian organisation. Secondly, in our setup calling in the Army has certain bureaucratic and legal processes to be followed, which increased the response time. NSG being officially a police force has power of arrest and MHA control means shorter bureaucratic hassle.

Similar thinking lead to the creation of the Rashtriya Rifles.

I would like to know, what has changed since Bluestar & Akshardham attacks, that allows Para SF to be called upon domestic Counter Terror operations? And if they are 'eligible' for this duty, then why have the NSG at all? Further, do any of our self imposed restrictions apply on 22SF, which is neither the Army nor a Police force. If not, then why are we hesitating to employ them nation wide?
This is a good point. Especially in the context that Special Group was already around.

1) The NSG had to be created because the SG/22SF "did not exist." It is ironical that the NSG got stuck with the nickname "Black Cats", because the real "black stuff" was to be done by the SG (both in India and abroad)...which is one reason why there is "angst" on this thread when its name comes up. :twisted:

2) Yet in our typically desi way that we default to, NSG was allowed to bloat, our follow on netas never had the gumption to use SG for the highly effective, but high risk CT strategy that such forces employ. So we had a farcical situation where SG, in order to retain its edge and some relevance, was being used in J&K along with the army's original Para (SF).

3) There has never been any problems of "eligibility" of using any military/spawned from military force in this country--else NSG would not have drawn its teeth from the Army. Like GSG9 it could have gone exclusively the CPMF way. Unlike US we do not have Posse-Comitatus (which they also have loopholes for) and ironically, in our culture police is looked upon as goondas/buffoons and any sign of army is welcomed blindly.

4) Bluestar and Akshardham have not triggered off the latest churn, Mumbai and 24 x 7 TV channels have. Merely substituting NSG with a Para (SF) or SG does very little to help the big picture. Your entire doctrine and "concept of operations" needs to be reviewed top-down...and not from the prism of the last attack but the next one.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

Rahul M wrote:no one talked of NSG 'under' local police. that is simply an impossible scenario in India's admin structure.
Ironically, NSG's most famous op Black Thunder II was under the supervision of KPS Gill.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

true, but then KPS Gill was not a ordinary politically savvy/ministerially aligned DGP either. do you want the typical DGP with no serious CT experience let alone CQB/HRT background to be the big boss over NSG units?

I can think of one good example - indian IT industry ? :lol:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_23455 »

You mean the same NSG that has been headed since inception by IPS officers?

It might be useful to reflect on the calibre of some of the Army types who have been in charge of NSG ops as well. (hint:Akshardham)

As has been belabored earlier, the nature of the game requires extraordinary types...the ordinary ones are floating around in all shades of uniform.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

FWIW, the current NSG DG was a highly regarded affsar in eye bee. even SPG was born out of a set-up that originated from eye bee.
let's hope coming from a security org will mean he has a better handle on NSG needs than aam pulismen.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by anjan »

This strategy of funneling money narrowly to create centers of excellence in a sea of mediocrity is stupid and will backfire. Better to distribute that money getting the ordinary policeman more range time and quicker access to weapons. The American fetish with super duper SF for everything is catching. It's a waste of money and bad use of manpower.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by tsarkar »

Karan M wrote:The question bears asking, what exactly did the MARCOS train for - were they but glorified Marines in all but name, if they did not have extensive training in room clearance? How were they expected to fight for Bombay High f.e. if it was taken over?
Units train for specific battlefield situations. One unit cannot do all.

MARCOS start as Clearance Divers, clearing foulings on ship bottons, (fishing nets entangling propellors, rudder, active fin stabilizers), underwater repairs (when far from home), salvage, clearing mines & sonobuoys.

Next role is pathfinder for amphibious landings. Identify channels in shallow beaches where to land. Identify defences. Neutralize them if they're light. A typical operation here http://indiannavy.nic.in/book/naval-ope ... ?page=0,97
On the night of 14/15 December BRAHMAPUTRA landed the divers by boat. The divers carried out the beach recce, sent back information that the beach gradient of 1 in 40 was suitable for landing and suggested that the landing ships should beach at 0530 the next morning when it would be slack water at low tide.

"We landed on the beach just after 2100 on 14 December. Our instructions were to recce the gradient and give all the other information necessary for a successful landing. At the time we were carrying out the recce, it was slack water at low tide. A similar condition was to prevail the next morning at dawn. So we had a clear idea regarding the gradients and the sandbars. Between the beach and the deeper water, there was a bar. We sent a message by hand of the boat to FOCEF that the landing ships should come at dawn, at the time of slack water at low tide in the morning. We stayed ashore to check whether there was any Pakistani build up and found there wasn't any".

Based on the report received from Lt Cdr Martis, FOCEF signalled to the landing force that beach conditions were suitable, that the landing would take place at 0530 on 15 December and that divers would mark the spots where the LST's should beach
Next role is destruction of enemy harbour & shore facilities. Including shipping at harbour. For this MARCOS use mini-subs called Chariots.

More here http://indiannavy.nic.in/book/diving-ca ... ot-project This chapter gives a facinating story of how MARCOS evolved from clearance divers.

Many operations in Sri Lanka were of this nature.

Next role is VBSS.

Another role is defending & re-taking oil rigs at Bombay High, for which a India Today article covered the MARCOS, and gave the impression of that being the primary role.

I'll come to Urban Operations a little later.

Force Disposition is Gujarat, Cochin (hub for Anti Piracy), until recently TN Coast (for LTTE), Andamans (natural home for Commandos). Mumbai has INS Abhimanyu, that is a training location.

Now, ships and oil rigs have few compartments vis-a-vis hotels, and MARCOS practice clearing them. In Kashmir/Sri Lanka, homes & surrounding areas are cleared, and holed up terrorists blown up. Those whose homes are blown up are compensated.

A hotel is like a beehive. From Karan's post
Layout: The Taj Palace Hotel
· Length of each corridor per floor is about 840 ft, total length of the hotel being about 1.80 Kms.
· Total area- 49,1400 sq.ft.
· 330 rooms, 2-3 rooms in each suite, 140 miscellaneous rooms including generator plants, etc. (in the basement), 17 suites in each floor.

Layout of The Taj Towers:
· 21 floors with with 17 rooms in each floor.
· Total rooms - 323
Number of hostages were huge. Kashmir/Sri Lanka type isolate & blast was not possible. They could not use RCL type weapons, because flimsy hotel walls may cause collateral damage to hostages next door.

The MARCOS did their best in securing the site, and isolating the terrorists.

Typical MARCOS profile here http://in.linkedin.com/in/skdhaka

Now coming to the original discussion, I belive the solution has to be local police forces. Central Forces will never have the human intelligence that local forces can build over years, nor can they know the lay of the land.

NSG was based of Manesar because Delhi was frequently targeted by terrorists. Mumbai blasts led to the highly effective ATS. The 26/11 attacks require local police forces. No other solution will be effective or permanent.

Specific situations require specific solutions.

British used local jezailchis to guard the Khyber.
Among the first Scouts to be raised, in November 1878, was an irregular corps consisting mainly of local tribesmen, the Afridis, by Captain Gais Ford. They were to protect the traffic moving through the Khyber Pass. With no uniform but a red tag sewn on to the back of the pagri / turban to distinguish them, they were at first known as the Khyber jezailchis. Each member of this semi-Khassadars force was armed with his own jezail or rifle.
British used Indian Sailors and Indian Ghurab & Gallivats vessles for Bombay Marine, that later became Indian Navy. They were smart enough to know Trafalger winning Royal Navy was not the solution against Sidis & Marathas.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by pragnya »

rohitvats wrote:
KiranM wrote:To gurus like Rohit and Raja Bose, any idea why some para battalions have been renamed as Special Forces (Airborne)? To me looks like they are the original para infantry for 50th Ind. Para Brigade.
That is the genius master-stroke of some para general who thinks Special Forces and Parachute Infantry battalions are one and the same thing... :(( :(( :((

And hence, the fancy name...I mean, just look at the stupidity of name - Special Forces (Airborne)...Are Para (SF) battalions not airborne? And what is 'Special Force' about Parachute Infantry Battalions?

I hope this is not just another ploy to get the SF allowance to Para guys as well.... :evil:
Lt Gen Prakash Katoch's good and hard hitting article on IA SF story so far
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KiranM »

Very interesting article and the comments are more illuminating on what really runs in the minds of both camps.
Brig Deepak Sinha (Retd) wrote: I continue to believe that the Parachute Brigade, especially after having commanded it, is an extremely potent organization that in the prevailing air defence and operational environment would best be employed under a unified special operations headquarters in conjunction with other special forces.
While the above statement, particularly the red bold part, does hold good; it does not necessitate that Special Forces have to be part of Parachute Regt to achieve the same. Much like supporting Armour/ Artillery/ Engineers, etc are not part of an Infantry Regiment, but function as part of the combined tasking.
Having said that, I disagree with Lt. Gen Katoch that Paratroopers is similar to regular infantry. Paratroopers are trained to operate behind enemy lines, though in large numbers, in an increasingly contended and denied enemy airspace. The concept is to deploy airborne forces as a strategic surprise. Given that modern wars are rapid and in our context vis a vis Pakistan/ China, will last a max of 1-2 weeks (before UN intervention); we cannot wait till IAF achieves theatre Air Supremacy/ dominance to deploy paratroopers. The most achievable would be for IAF to obtain a few hours of localized air superiority to deploy a Battalion to Brigade size deployment (as situation permits); by when enemy air defence and AF will close or at least severely degrade that air head. This requires the airborne forces to be highly survivable and self contained after deployment for 24-72 hrs till relieved by land forces. Hence, in no way will they function as a regular infantry.
What comes to mind is flexibility for paratroopers to function like US Army Rangers in company + size special operations to an air dropped mechanized Infantry role in Demi Brigade size. The closest that comes to mind is capabilities similar to a US Marine Expeditionary Unit which when needed forms part of the larger Marine Brigade.
This kind of training and tasking will be more intensive than a regular infantry but not as much as a special forces unit.

If a difference of pay is a problem, structure for Paratroopers to have allowance more than a regular infantry but less than that of SF. If a distinct badge is a reason, create a new badge like the US Army Ranger tab, which can be given to anyone in the Armed Forces who complete that course. The closest that comes to mind is the Junior Leaders Commando course in Belgaum. Make it mandatory for all paratroopers to finish such a course and wear a new 'Commando' patch.

Never the less, a different usage of Special Forces very much needs them to be separate from Parachute Regiment. As recent as Kargil war demonstrated SF Bns being used in line infantry role when they could have been better used to infiltrate beyond LoC for recce and sabotage of PA logistics. Mass conversion of Para BNs to SF BNs is not the answer.

As to one gent in the comments section who says Paratrooper can be considered SF if Garuds can be considered SF; he forgets that SF by definition operate in size less than a company (very rarely) and on an average less than half a platoon (4-10 men). This definition of operating in small numbers themselves makes Garuds an SF in addition to role like Combat Search and Rescue of downed pilots behind enemy lines.
Col JP Singh wrote: The country desperately needs a special forces command and all specialized units to include the Special Forces battalions, The Parachute Brigade and the additional Parachute Battalions be put under its ambit. An ego play here is not the need of the day; it can be called The Airborne and Special Forces Command. The Airborne units also need a controlling HQ as the mandarins of Army HQ can’t quite manage these forces nor think sanely as to their management, equipment, training and employment.
This gent is the most eloquent and sensible from the para camp. To ensure that both Airborne and SF are used in an appropriate manner better to create separate Expeditionary command to task Para Brigades and Special Operations Command to task SF units. May be this Expeditionary Command can also be responsible for tasking dedicated amphibious formations (perhaps a 'Marine' Regiment in IA).
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