Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Viv S
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Viv S » 05 Jan 2015 13:27

vaibhav.n wrote:Sigh!!


Is that a 'why ask, everybody already knows' sigh, or a 'we should not be discussing this' sigh?

srai
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby srai » 05 Jan 2015 14:26

Viv S wrote:1 Archer?


Video mentions "1 Archer" also as "Zulu" which are made up of Gorkhas.

vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 05 Jan 2015 14:31

The later. Guess it was bound to come into the public domain sooner than later. Dunno how much of SG Ops has been revealed. Though I doubt since they are pretty compartmentalised.

Haven't had the time to see the video as yet though.

vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 05 Jan 2015 15:41

Srai,
They do have Gurkhas/Sherpa's from Nepal there. Vikas Units are single class.

The eastern chinese tribesmen, Khampas have their classic shortsword on the SFF insignia. They are also amongst the sect's core group of followers and suffered massively in the PLA purges that followed unlike those from Amdo province. The Khampas have had a running blood fued with the Chinese since the 17th century.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Jan 2015 01:09

samsher wrote:^^^^
@17:46, while "profiling" the CO's of the unit, isn't that a familiar face? The name seems to be misspelt so are the decorations.
it says "Maj Gen. Dalvir Singh, AVSM, VRL, VSM"
The current chief's decorations include "PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, VSM, and ADC".

so the VRL is probably a typo, or perhaps a decoration from the tibetian govt. in exile?


Yes, that is correct, a typo. Plus he did not get a VRC. Other decorations UYSM and ADC came later.

Before that at 17.45 is Maj Gen Dalvir Singh who was once confused for Dalbir Singh on another thread :) His decorations include VRC.

Maj Gen Dalvir (not Dalbir) Singh from 10 Para Cdo was CO of the unit (Lt Col) in Op Pawan Sri Lanka and IIRC was involved in same famous op (Jaffna University eli drop) as Col Anil Kaul VRC who was Maj then or rather his troops were rescued by Kaul's squadron. In that op 29 men of delta coy 13 Sikh LI were dropped (the other 330 could not be dropped as helicopters aborted due to heavy fire). The fought till last man , last round with 3 of them leading a bayonet charge. Just like 13 Kumaon in 62.

Dalbir Singh the current COAS was a Major Company Commander with his unit 4/5 GR (4th Battalion the 5th Gurkha rifles aka Frontier Force as they like calling themselves). No connection to that op.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 09 Jan 2015 13:27

To those wondering about 'use' of SFF during 1984 Operation Bluestar please re-visit this report from India Today:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/operation-bluestar-indira-gandhi-singh-bhindranwale-army/1/340981.html

It was the SG which was used and not SFF. But then, most in IA won't even know about SG. Even today.

If you guys remember, there was an ex-IA Colonel who had criticized NSG and spoke about how it had deviated from original charter. The Gentleman also spoke about an agile SF which was modeled on SAS and supposed to cater to internal and external threats.

Well, long story short, this was the Special Group - and as all things in Indian security establishment, right hand had no clue about what the left hand was doing. So, you had SG being trained and prepared for premier special ops drawing its manpower from IA but IA itself having no clue about the whole affair. And IA was in parallel working on converting 1 Para Cdo into an 'super elite' SF amongst the 1, 9 and 10 Para Cdo.

BTW - the assault on Golden Temple was led by 1 Para Cdo along with elements of 'SFF'.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 09 Jan 2015 13:36

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
samsher wrote:^^^^
@17:46, while "profiling" the CO's of the unit, isn't that a familiar face? The name seems to be misspelt so are the decorations.
it says "Maj Gen. Dalvir Singh, AVSM, VRL, VSM"
The current chief's decorations include "PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, VSM, and ADC".

so the VRL is probably a typo, or perhaps a decoration from the tibetian govt. in exile?


Yes, that is correct, a typo. Plus he did not get a VRC. Other decorations UYSM and ADC came later.

Before that at 17.45 is Maj Gen Dalvir Singh who was once confused for Dalbir Singh on another thread :) His decorations include VRC.

Maj Gen Dalvir (not Dalbir) Singh from 10 Para Cdo was CO of the unit (Lt Col) in Op Pawan Sri Lanka and IIRC was involved in same famous op (Jaffna University eli drop) as Col Anil Kaul VRC who was Maj then or rather his troops were rescued by Kaul's squadron. In that op 29 men of delta coy 13 Sikh LI were dropped (the other 330 could not be dropped as helicopters aborted due to heavy fire). The fought till last man , last round with 3 of them leading a bayonet charge. Just like 13 Kumaon in 62.


Only 1 man survived and was taken PoW by the LTTE - Gora Singh. Only after his release did the true story of the Sikh LI platoon come out.

rohitvats wrote:If you guys remember, there was an ex-IA Colonel who had criticized NSG and spoke about how it had deviated from original charter. The Gentleman also spoke about an agile SF which was modeled on SAS and supposed to cater to internal and external threats.


IIRC that was a gentleman named Chowdhury (forget if his rank was Colonel). Wasn't he one of the founders of NSG himself? BTW I thought it was known all along that SG took part in Bluestar, who claimed otherwise? :-?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 09 Jan 2015 13:40

^^^It is the SFF which is generally referred to regular media sources. Forget people, even 99.9% of the IA doesn't know about it.

Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 09 Jan 2015 13:50

hmmm....

If you have Mark Tully's book, maybe check what do they say there?

Sandeep Unnithan's article on SG - with some pics

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ravip » 09 Jan 2015 14:04

rohitvats wrote:To those wondering about 'use' of SFF during 1984 Operation Bluestar please re-visit this report from India Today:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/operation-bluestar-indira-gandhi-singh-bhindranwale-army/1/340981.html

It was the SG which was used and not SFF. But then, most in IA won't even know about SG. Even today.

If you guys remember, there was an ex-IA Colonel who had criticized NSG and spoke about how it had deviated from original charter. The Gentleman also spoke about an agile SF which was modeled on SAS and supposed to cater to internal and external threats.

Well, long story short, this was the Special Group - and as all things in Indian security establishment, right hand had no clue about what the left hand was doing. So, you had SG being trained and prepared for premier special ops drawing its manpower from IA but IA itself having no clue about the whole affair. And IA was in parallel working on converting 1 Para Cdo into an 'super elite' SF amongst the 1, 9 and 10 Para Cdo.

BTW - the assault on Golden Temple was led by 1 Para Cdo along with elements of 'SFF'.


Do you have the link to that article, I have read that one but not able to find.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 09 Jan 2015 14:15

Raja Bose wrote:hmmm....

If you have Mark Tully's book, maybe check what do they say there?

Sandeep Unnithan's article on SG - with some pics


Haven't read Tully's book. But thanks for the article - did not know it even existed! :P

By moving 200 men into NSG so soon after SG was raised, the force was basically drained of its manpower. And the original rationale of having a lean and agile SF for country wide deployment in CT Ops got beaten.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 10 Jan 2015 13:26

Damn!!..This chap has SG down to the Squadrons too....

Rohit,

While you are correct, the said time period was a difficult time for us with all the insurgencies. Once NSG was given the internal CT mandate, it was but natural for the Cabinet Sect boys to rope in the SG for their own Ops. Good in a way too, those two would have just competed for resources and position.

As far as SG ops being referred as SFF in the media is concerned, well they do provide some measure of deniability for the OGA's for actual Ops. Besides they aren't completely off the mark...... :mrgreen:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ravip » 10 Jan 2015 22:11

The above aritcle mentions only 3 squadron's but in reality there are four squadrons, just went through archives of condolence letters of Maj. Udai Singh written by CO & others to find any reference to Squadron. There is a mention of a term called '56 APO' in the letter of Col. Sanjay Thapa, CO of SG and GOC Northern Command, don't know what it means but my guess is it is the squadron number.

@Rohitvats can you please redirect me to the article, in which the ex IA Col. speaks about NSG.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby morem » 10 Jan 2015 22:37

ravip wrote:The above aritcle mentions only 3 squadron's but in reality there are four squadrons, just went through archives of condolence letters of Maj. Udai Singh written by CO & others to find any reference to Squadron. There is a mention of a term called '56 APO' in the letter of Col. Sanjay Thapa, CO of SG and GOC Northern Command, don't know what it means but my guess is it is the squadron number.

@Rohitvats can you please redirect me to the article, in which the ex IA Col. speaks about NSG.

I may be wrong but i think 56 APO refers to the 56 Army post office

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby member_22906 » 10 Jan 2015 23:30

^^

Yes it is. IIRC, it is 56 APO for most of India and 99 APO for Eastern Command

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby deejay » 11 Jan 2015 13:18

^^^ That is correct Sir.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby SagarAg » 17 Jan 2015 21:15

iaf-garud-commando-force-drill-in-ahmedabad-video

Image
Image

Badass. :twisted: More media in link above.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishnan » 18 Jan 2015 05:02

Strange gloves, can they fire with those on ??

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 18 Jan 2015 07:07

Don't know if this has been posted earlier, didn't know current IA chief had commanded SFF 22 in past :

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=844325122293400

Need to be saved , very informative

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 18 Jan 2015 07:25

krishnan wrote:Strange gloves, can they fire with those on ??


Those gloves are used to hold the rope during slithering out of the helicopter; otherwise, given the speed of descent, the friction will simply make mincemeat of the hands!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby chandrabhan » 18 Jan 2015 09:52

Letters to my younger brother serving in 9 para goes through 56 APO.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 18 Jan 2015 20:20

Nice shiny kit on the Garuds. Must be because its not used very often :P .... kidding.

Image

^ Mi-17 with floatation equipment. Means it is based for maritime SAR ops in Gujarat air bases. Those Garuds are attached for CSAR perhaps?

krishnan wrote:Strange gloves, can they fire with those on ??


These are protective gloves for fast roping.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby deejay » 19 Jan 2015 10:21

^^^ Those gloves are very important and Aditya G, you may be right about the Garuds!

Slithering is a difficult thing. Though, after the first attempt folks start enjoying it. Accidents and injuries happen too, quite often with a few broken bones. This can happen if you slither down too fast or let your grip on the rope fail. Sometimes the helicopter becomes unsteady in hover with a sudden gain or loss of height. The rope may swing with the downwash causing difficulties. Mostly done from around 20 mtrs height and it is really exciting at night with 04 helicopter SHBO letting out 'sticks' at DZ with the dust bowls all around.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 19 Jan 2015 10:25

^^ Always remember the "Black Hawk Down" scene where the first KIA of the mission happens when the Blackhawk suddenly swerves( to avoid incoming PRG) when the ranger is slithering and he looses grip and goes down hard

Speaking of which, BRF had linked a article 2-3 years back speaking of formative steps being taken for formation of a desi 160th SOAR type squadron. Any further updates on that front?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 19 Jan 2015 11:20

The guy who fell is still alive iirc. :-?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 19 Jan 2015 12:53

Image

Btw these are the type of fast rope gloves that are currently available. Those baking mitts have to go.

Nice shiny kit


Outside of the Tavors and The New Combat Boots.. What shinny kit?


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 19 Jan 2015 13:53

^^^ IMO i prefer the Gloves i have posted than the ones you have posted. Forearms need to be protected as well specially if Slithering from a higher drop.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 19 Jan 2015 14:04

Raja Bose wrote:The guy who fell is still alive iirc. :-?

Need to rewatch the movie onlee... :oops: :oops:

Somehow thought he breaks his neck or something.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Ankit Desai » 19 Jan 2015 15:10

sum wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:The guy who fell is still alive iirc. :-?

Need to rewatch the movie onlee... :oops: :oops:

Somehow thought he breaks his neck or something.


Just saw it. The guy is still alive, he broke his neck though. IIRC his name is blackburn.

-Ankit

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Jan 2015 18:02

Those mitts will only work with Tavors. With any other gun you'd have to take off the gloves to fire.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby JE Menon » 19 Jan 2015 18:33

The helmets look great, and seems snug fitting and just right for our boys. Locally made?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby hnair » 19 Jan 2015 21:41

JEM, you got tricked: they are still the same old plastic Studd-helmets with a dust-cover. I have similar dust-cover for my VIP suitcases, in camo pattern, that I bought at Paharganj circa late 80s. When will our folks ever improve? :((

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 20 Jan 2015 00:01

This is one i remember about Garud eqpt

Image
Last edited by Karan M on 20 Jan 2015 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 20 Jan 2015 00:03

As a sidenote, we have several manufacturers in India
http://www.mku.com/Helmet.aspx

If they arent good enough, then locals do exist to manufacture some imported design w/TOT
The combination of laggard MOD and byzantine IA procedures apparently has limited procurement of such essentials as BPJs and helmets

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Thakur_B » 20 Jan 2015 07:01

The helmets look closer to the Russian helmets used by NSG, albeit with camo cover.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Victor » 20 Jan 2015 08:52

I'm guessing that for Garud and Marcos helmets a balance needed to be found between protecting heads from blunt force damage from falling while slithering down helos or boarding ships and from bullets/shrapnel. The new Enhanced Combat Helmet being developed by the USMC is similar, being made of plastic instead of kevlar. The Garuds in the photos look like they are prepared to withstand flames with those masks and goggles.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 20 Jan 2015 09:08

Wait! We went from going :(( :(( about scooter helmets to baking mitts? :eek: :rotfl:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 20 Jan 2015 11:15

This is one i remember about Garud eqpt


The Fancy Equipment only comes out when they are infront of the camera (Natgeo/NDTV,etc) or cross training with the Americans. In real live ops (like the recent COIN in Kashmir) the Equipment is still mix and match.

Which makes me wonder if our Headshed is buying Equipment only for propoganda or there is actual real world troop enhancement on the ground. getting our SOF policy/doctrine in place is as critical as buying nuke subs and Aircrafts.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby JE Menon » 20 Jan 2015 14:28

hnair,

I thought so initially myself, but in the pictures there's only one guy wearing what was the classic "scooter" helmet thingie, and he's wearing it without a cover. The helmet the others are wearing is not the same... it's a different one.

Maybe I'm wrong, but there's some difference there.


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