Discussion on Indian Special Forces

[Viv S]

Sigh!!

Is that a 'why ask, everybody already knows' sigh, or a 'we should not be discussing this' sigh?

[srai]

1 Archer?

Video mentions "1 Archer" also as "Zulu" which are made up of Gorkhas.

[vaibhav.n]

The later. Guess it was bound to come into the public domain sooner than later. Dunno how much of SG Ops has been revealed. Though I doubt since they are pretty compartmentalised.

Haven't had the time to see the video as yet though.

[vaibhav.n]

Srai,
They do have Gurkhas/Sherpa's from Nepal there. Vikas Units are single class.

The eastern chinese tribesmen, Khampas have their classic shortsword on the SFF insignia. They are also amongst the sect's core group of followers and suffered massively in the PLA purges that followed unlike those from Amdo province. The Khampas have had a running blood fued with the Chinese since the 17th century.

[Akshay Kapoor]

^^^^
@17:46, while "profiling" the CO's of the unit, isn't that a familiar face? The name seems to be misspelt so are the decorations.
it says "Maj Gen. Dalvir Singh, AVSM, VRL, VSM"
The current chief's decorations include "PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, VSM, and ADC".

so the VRL is probably a typo, or perhaps a decoration from the tibetian govt. in exile?

Yes, that is correct, a typo. Plus he did not get a VRC. Other decorations UYSM and ADC came later.

Before that at 17.45 is Maj Gen Dalvir Singh who was once confused for Dalbir Singh on another thread His decorations include VRC.

Maj Gen Dalvir (not Dalbir) Singh from 10 Para Cdo was CO of the unit (Lt Col) in Op Pawan Sri Lanka and IIRC was involved in same famous op (Jaffna University eli drop) as Col Anil Kaul VRC who was Maj then or rather his troops were rescued by Kaul's squadron. In that op 29 men of delta coy 13 Sikh LI were dropped (the other 330 could not be dropped as helicopters aborted due to heavy fire). The fought till last man , last round with 3 of them leading a bayonet charge. Just like 13 Kumaon in 62.

Dalbir Singh the current COAS was a Major Company Commander with his unit 4/5 GR (4th Battalion the 5th Gurkha rifles aka Frontier Force as they like calling themselves). No connection to that op.

[rohitvats]

To those wondering about 'use' of SFF during 1984 Operation Bluestar please re-visit this report from India Today:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/operation-bluestar-indira-gandhi-singh-bhindranwale-army/1/340981.html

It was the SG which was used and not SFF. But then, most in IA won't even know about SG. Even today.

If you guys remember, there was an ex-IA Colonel who had criticized NSG and spoke about how it had deviated from original charter. The Gentleman also spoke about an agile SF which was modeled on SAS and supposed to cater to internal and external threats.

Well, long story short, this was the Special Group - and as all things in Indian security establishment, right hand had no clue about what the left hand was doing. So, you had SG being trained and prepared for premier special ops drawing its manpower from IA but IA itself having no clue about the whole affair. And IA was in parallel working on converting 1 Para Cdo into an 'super elite' SF amongst the 1, 9 and 10 Para Cdo.

BTW - the assault on Golden Temple was led by 1 Para Cdo along with elements of 'SFF'.

[Raja Bose]

^^^^
@17:46, while "profiling" the CO's of the unit, isn't that a familiar face? The name seems to be misspelt so are the decorations.
it says "Maj Gen. Dalvir Singh, AVSM, VRL, VSM"
The current chief's decorations include "PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, VSM, and ADC".

so the VRL is probably a typo, or perhaps a decoration from the tibetian govt. in exile?

Yes, that is correct, a typo. Plus he did not get a VRC. Other decorations UYSM and ADC came later.

Before that at 17.45 is Maj Gen Dalvir Singh who was once confused for Dalbir Singh on another thread His decorations include VRC.

Maj Gen Dalvir (not Dalbir) Singh from 10 Para Cdo was CO of the unit (Lt Col) in Op Pawan Sri Lanka and IIRC was involved in same famous op (Jaffna University eli drop) as Col Anil Kaul VRC who was Maj then or rather his troops were rescued by Kaul's squadron. In that op 29 men of delta coy 13 Sikh LI were dropped (the other 330 could not be dropped as helicopters aborted due to heavy fire). The fought till last man , last round with 3 of them leading a bayonet charge. Just like 13 Kumaon in 62.

Only 1 man survived and was taken PoW by the LTTE - Gora Singh. Only after his release did the true story of the Sikh LI platoon come out.

If you guys remember, there was an ex-IA Colonel who had criticized NSG and spoke about how it had deviated from original charter. The Gentleman also spoke about an agile SF which was modeled on SAS and supposed to cater to internal and external threats.

IIRC that was a gentleman named Chowdhury (forget if his rank was Colonel). Wasn't he one of the founders of NSG himself? BTW I thought it was known all along that SG took part in Bluestar, who claimed otherwise?

[rohitvats]

^^^It is the SFF which is generally referred to regular media sources. Forget people, even 99.9% of the IA doesn't know about it.

[Raja Bose]

hmmm....

If you have Mark Tully's book, maybe check what do they say there?

Sandeep Unnithan's article on SG - with some pics

[ravip]

To those wondering about 'use' of SFF during 1984 Operation Bluestar please re-visit this report from India Today:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/operation-bluestar-indira-gandhi-singh-bhindranwale-army/1/340981.html

It was the SG which was used and not SFF. But then, most in IA won't even know about SG. Even today.

If you guys remember, there was an ex-IA Colonel who had criticized NSG and spoke about how it had deviated from original charter. The Gentleman also spoke about an agile SF which was modeled on SAS and supposed to cater to internal and external threats.

Well, long story short, this was the Special Group - and as all things in Indian security establishment, right hand had no clue about what the left hand was doing. So, you had SG being trained and prepared for premier special ops drawing its manpower from IA but IA itself having no clue about the whole affair. And IA was in parallel working on converting 1 Para Cdo into an 'super elite' SF amongst the 1, 9 and 10 Para Cdo.

BTW - the assault on Golden Temple was led by 1 Para Cdo along with elements of 'SFF'.

Do you have the link to that article, I have read that one but not able to find.

[rohitvats]

hmmm....

If you have Mark Tully's book, maybe check what do they say there?

Sandeep Unnithan's article on SG - with some pics

Haven't read Tully's book. But thanks for the article - did not know it even existed!

By moving 200 men into NSG so soon after SG was raised, the force was basically drained of its manpower. And the original rationale of having a lean and agile SF for country wide deployment in CT Ops got beaten.

[vaibhav.n]

Damn!!..This chap has SG down to the Squadrons too....

Rohit,

While you are correct, the said time period was a difficult time for us with all the insurgencies. Once NSG was given the internal CT mandate, it was but natural for the Cabinet Sect boys to rope in the SG for their own Ops. Good in a way too, those two would have just competed for resources and position.

As far as SG ops being referred as SFF in the media is concerned, well they do provide some measure of deniability for the OGA's for actual Ops. Besides they aren't completely off the mark......

[ravip]

The above aritcle mentions only 3 squadron's but in reality there are four squadrons, just went through archives of condolence letters of Maj. Udai Singh written by CO & others to find any reference to Squadron. There is a mention of a term called '56 APO' in the letter of Col. Sanjay Thapa, CO of SG and GOC Northern Command, don't know what it means but my guess is it is the squadron number.

@Rohitvats can you please redirect me to the article, in which the ex IA Col. speaks about NSG.

[morem]

The above aritcle mentions only 3 squadron's but in reality there are four squadrons, just went through archives of condolence letters of Maj. Udai Singh written by CO & others to find any reference to Squadron. There is a mention of a term called '56 APO' in the letter of Col. Sanjay Thapa, CO of SG and GOC Northern Command, don't know what it means but my guess is it is the squadron number.

@Rohitvats can you please redirect me to the article, in which the ex IA Col. speaks about NSG.

I may be wrong but i think 56 APO refers to the 56 Army post office

[member_22906]

^^

Yes it is. IIRC, it is 56 APO for most of India and 99 APO for Eastern Command

[deejay]

^^^ That is correct Sir.

[SagarAg]

iaf-garud-commando-force-drill-in-ahmedabad-video




Badass. More media in link above.

[krishnan]

Strange gloves, can they fire with those on ??

[krishna_krishna]

Don't know if this has been posted earlier, didn't know current IA chief had commanded SFF 22 in past :

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=844325122293400

Need to be saved , very informative

[rohitvats]

Strange gloves, can they fire with those on ??

Those gloves are used to hold the rope during slithering out of the helicopter; otherwise, given the speed of descent, the friction will simply make mincemeat of the hands!

[chandrabhan]

Letters to my younger brother serving in 9 para goes through 56 APO.

[Aditya G]

Nice shiny kit on the Garuds. Must be because its not used very often .... kidding.



^ Mi-17 with floatation equipment. Means it is based for maritime SAR ops in Gujarat air bases. Those Garuds are attached for CSAR perhaps?

Strange gloves, can they fire with those on ??

These are protective gloves for fast roping.

[deejay]

^^^ Those gloves are very important and Aditya G, you may be right about the Garuds!

Slithering is a difficult thing. Though, after the first attempt folks start enjoying it. Accidents and injuries happen too, quite often with a few broken bones. This can happen if you slither down too fast or let your grip on the rope fail. Sometimes the helicopter becomes unsteady in hover with a sudden gain or loss of height. The rope may swing with the downwash causing difficulties. Mostly done from around 20 mtrs height and it is really exciting at night with 04 helicopter SHBO letting out 'sticks' at DZ with the dust bowls all around.

[sum]

^^ Always remember the "Black Hawk Down" scene where the first KIA of the mission happens when the Blackhawk suddenly swerves( to avoid incoming PRG) when the ranger is slithering and he looses grip and goes down hard

Speaking of which, BRF had linked a article 2-3 years back speaking of formative steps being taken for formation of a desi 160th SOAR type squadron. Any further updates on that front?

[Raja Bose]

The guy who fell is still alive iirc.

[rkhanna]

Btw these are the type of fast rope gloves that are currently available. Those baking mitts have to go.

Nice shiny kit

Outside of the Tavors and The New Combat Boots.. What shinny kit?

[member_20453]

http://yatesgear.com/en/yates-tactical- ... ope-gloves

https://www.oakleysi.com/Product_Detail.cfm?id=294

Indeed, those baking gloves need to be replaced

http://www.loftactical.com/product.aspx?id=198

[rkhanna]

^^^ IMO i prefer the Gloves i have posted than the ones you have posted. Forearms need to be protected as well specially if Slithering from a higher drop.

[sum]

The guy who fell is still alive iirc.

Need to rewatch the movie onlee...

Somehow thought he breaks his neck or something.

[Ankit Desai]

The guy who fell is still alive iirc.

Need to rewatch the movie onlee...

Somehow thought he breaks his neck or something.

Just saw it. The guy is still alive, he broke his neck though. IIRC his name is blackburn.

-Ankit

[Thakur_B]

Those mitts will only work with Tavors. With any other gun you'd have to take off the gloves to fire.

[JE Menon]

The helmets look great, and seems snug fitting and just right for our boys. Locally made?

[hnair]

JEM, you got tricked: they are still the same old plastic Studd-helmets with a dust-cover. I have similar dust-cover for my VIP suitcases, in camo pattern, that I bought at Paharganj circa late 80s. When will our folks ever improve?

[Karan M]

This is one i remember about Garud eqpt

[Karan M]

As a sidenote, we have several manufacturers in India
http://www.mku.com/Helmet.aspx

If they arent good enough, then locals do exist to manufacture some imported design w/TOT
The combination of laggard MOD and byzantine IA procedures apparently has limited procurement of such essentials as BPJs and helmets

[Thakur_B]

The helmets look closer to the Russian helmets used by NSG, albeit with camo cover.

[Victor]

I'm guessing that for Garud and Marcos helmets a balance needed to be found between protecting heads from blunt force damage from falling while slithering down helos or boarding ships and from bullets/shrapnel. The new Enhanced Combat Helmet being developed by the USMC is similar, being made of plastic instead of kevlar. The Garuds in the photos look like they are prepared to withstand flames with those masks and goggles.

[Raja Bose]

Wait! We went from going about scooter helmets to baking mitts?

[rkhanna]

This is one i remember about Garud eqpt

The Fancy Equipment only comes out when they are infront of the camera (Natgeo/NDTV,etc) or cross training with the Americans. In real live ops (like the recent COIN in Kashmir) the Equipment is still mix and match.

Which makes me wonder if our Headshed is buying Equipment only for propoganda or there is actual real world troop enhancement on the ground. getting our SOF policy/doctrine in place is as critical as buying nuke subs and Aircrafts.

[JE Menon]

hnair,

I thought so initially myself, but in the pictures there's only one guy wearing what was the classic "scooter" helmet thingie, and he's wearing it without a cover. The helmet the others are wearing is not the same... it's a different one.

Maybe I'm wrong, but there's some difference there.