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Discussion on Indian Special Forces

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Oct 2017 11:42

Garuds from the Encounter

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 11 Oct 2017 12:06

Were they the 2 men killed in the encounter?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby wig » 11 Oct 2017 12:19

IAF Garuds were operating with the Army for operational experience
The encounter occurred in the Hajin area of Bandipora in Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday morning. Two Indian Air Force Garud commandos were killed in the encounter and two terrorists have also been shot dead. The Garud personnel were operating with the army for operational experience.


and this took place
"Terrorists opened fire on a joint party of 13 RR of army and SOG of Jammu and Kashmir police laying siege to Rakh (Paribal) area of Hajin Wednesday morning following inputs about the presence of about eight terrorists in the area," defence spokesperson, based in Srinagar, told The Times of India.

"As the forces were closing in, the hiding terrorists fired upon them around 5 am, resulting in injuries to jawans. Two Garud personnel were martyred in the action." Two army jawans were also injured in the encounter and shifted to 92 base hospital for further treatment, The Indian Expressquoted Director General of Press Information Bureau, KS Dhatwalia, as saying.


http://www.firstpost.com/india/encounte ... 30607.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Oct 2017 13:10

sum wrote:Were they the 2 men killed in the encounter?


No. (dont think so) picture of Garuds form the Encounter. Identities no known.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 11 Oct 2017 17:47

It was a three man team with one injured and two martyred, sad day. This points out to tactical mistake in positioning in cordon and search, this guys needs change in tactics to be good scouts

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2017 05:04

Here’s IAF Garud commando Sgt Milind Kishor Khairnar in battle gear. May his family in Nashik find the strength.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2017 05:11

Garud commandoes take first casualties after secretly operating in J&K for 12 years
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/10/g ... lties.html

Modelled on Israeli Shaldag, Garuds earn combat experience in Kashmir --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaldag_Unit

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 12 Oct 2017 13:11

krishna_krishna wrote:It was a three man team with one injured and two martyred, sad day. This points out to tactical mistake in positioning in cordon and search, this guys needs change in tactics to be good scouts


Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 12 Oct 2017 16:09

One setback and armchair experts are raising aspersions on tactics and capabilities.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 12 Oct 2017 17:10

rkhanna wrote: Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.


Garuds were with the Army for live situational training. They came in August and this is the first batch. Idea to embedded Garud Commandoes was aimed to mould them into a well-knit fighting force capable of taking on terrorists,” said a defence official.

From here:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 71290.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 12 Oct 2017 17:18

Ajai Shukla claims they are around since 2005 and have even 2 HM commanders as kills in encounters

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 13 Oct 2017 10:45

sum wrote:Ajai Shukla claims they are around since 2005 and have even 2 HM commanders as kills in encounters


Ajai Shukla is right and wrong. They have been since 2005 for protection of capital assets. Their Involvement in COIN is more recent.

Secondly - Garuds are not "Training" with army soldiers. While our press seems to have found a new word here the real word you are looking for is embedded with Army Soldiers. They have been embedded for a while now. with 9 Para and 31RR . And for the rest of time they will continue to be embedded only. Unlike the Paras and even the MARCOS their deployment teams are smaller and their tasking more specific.

They have undergone a LONG immersion program and if it werent for the deaths you would not have heard about them.

And sorry no matter what IEx or any other newspaper is saying this WAS NOT THEIR FIRST OP in J&K.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 13 Oct 2017 10:46

krishna_krishna wrote:
rkhanna wrote: Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.


Garuds were with the Army for live situational training. They came in August and this is the first batch. Idea to embedded Garud Commandoes was aimed to mould them into a well-knit fighting force capable of taking on terrorists,” said a defence official.

From here:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 71290.html


yea no. This "defense official" is not correct.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 15 Oct 2017 07:53

rkhanna wrote:yea no. This "defense official" is not correct.


Here is another source :
http://kashmirlife.net/iaf-commandos-ki ... my-153176/

"The six-month training for these two squads started in August, which included two-weeks of pre-induction training at Corps Battle School, Indian Express reported.

The two squads were then attached with the Rashtriya Rifles in northern Kashmir. One of the teams, which is with 13 Rashtriya Rifles battalion at Hajin, was involved in Wednesday’s operation.

The two squads currently operating with the Army in Kashmir are the first lot of Garuds undergoing this on-the-job training. This will be followed by the next batch of Garuds who will have a two-week overlap in the operational area with the current lot early next year.

The Garud force was established in September 2004 on the model of Israeli air force Special Forces Unit 5101 or Shaldag."

Do you have any other Open source info that prove that was not the case ?

I do not want to go into match with you about when Garuds started operating in the valley (they were much early however only for base defense), Sad to see two chaps loose their life (irrespective of army/navy/AF or what regiments/squadron they belong to) especially when they are part of special forces, there has to be discussion on what went wrong.

All I am trying to say is that from information available there was something wrong with combat and search op these chaps were part of.

Added Later: That Shuklow article about Garud operating in valley since '05 is funny (may be part of track thoo kebabs and scotch his literary skills are down the drain to level of DDM's), To say they were doing such ops since 2005 is laughable because till 2009-10 they were not even operational ready.They were undergoing a lot of training in this period and many of them were not good enough who subsequently got phased out.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2017 11:53

So it is rkhanna vs the DDM...

Also why should we discuss and pass commentary on what went wrong - knowing full well we do not have the facts and never will and really do not need to know!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2017 11:56

Btw what weapon is Sgt Khairnar holding?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby wig » 18 Oct 2017 09:28

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/garu ... 70825.html

the bullet proof helmet used by the IAF Garud apparently did not perform as expected against AK 47 bullets
Two AK-47 bullets fired by the terrorists pierced the bulletproof helmet worn by Sergeant Milind during the fierce encounter where the attackers were trying to escape spraying bullets at the cordon laid down by the Garuds and 13 Rashtriya Rifles,"


excerpts

The helmets have to be equipped with other tools such as night-vision devices during operations and cannot be made very heavy. This may be a reason that's making them vulnerable to bullets fired at a particular range and angle," they said.
Security personnel who operated with the Garud special forces in the Rakh-e-Hajin village said the bullet piercing marks on the helmets could be seen clearly after the bodies of the two soldiers were recovered following the operation

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 18 Oct 2017 13:25

^^
Misleading article. I don't know which helmet Garuds use. Perhaps OR-201. That certainly isn't designed to protect against 7.62mm round. In fact, no modern helmet is designed to protect against even 5.56mm NATO round. Patka had that level of protection in its front and sides but then it was too heavy.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 18 Oct 2017 14:08

wig wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/garud-force-helmet-rashtirya-rifle-kashmir-ak-47-indian-army/1/1070825.html

the bullet proof helmet used by the IAF Garud apparently did not perform as expected against AK 47 bullets


The helmet performed as expected unless mfr claimed that it can stop an AK round.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gagan » 18 Oct 2017 19:34

Rakesh wrote:Here’s IAF Garud commando Sgt Milind Kishor Khairnar in battle gear. May his family in Nashik find the strength.

OFB Ghatak
Image

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 18 Oct 2017 20:49

AK upgraded by FAB defence Israel.

Gagan wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Here’s IAF Garud commando Sgt Milind Kishor Khairnar in battle gear. May his family in Nashik find the strength.

OFB Ghatak

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 13 Nov 2017 18:58

SFF Tibetan trooper killed in paradrop accident at ARC base in Odisha:
[url="http://thestrategictimes.com/special-frontier-force-soldiers-goes-missing"]SFF trooper killed[/url]

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gagan » 14 Nov 2017 09:11

^^^Corrected url
SFF trooper killed
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 15 Nov 2017 12:05

Garuds in Israel - cross training with Unit 669

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sohamn » 16 Nov 2017 01:42

Gaur wrote:^^
Misleading article. I don't know which helmet Garuds use. Perhaps OR-201. That certainly isn't designed to protect against 7.62mm round. In fact, no modern helmet is designed to protect against even 5.56mm NATO round. Patka had that level of protection in its front and sides but then it was too heavy.


That is not true, there are some modem helmets that protect against regular 7.62x39 lead rounds but most helmets can't stop a steel core or copper jacket rounds at close range. A thick Kevlar helmet will stop a lead AK or 5.56 round fired at a distance, but for anything more you require ceramic or hardened steel which makes an helmet very heavy.
Last edited by sohamn on 16 Nov 2017 02:01, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sohamn » 16 Nov 2017 02:00

sohamn wrote:
Gaur wrote:^^
Misleading article. I don't know which helmet Garuds use. Perhaps OR-201. That certainly isn't designed to protect against 7.62mm round. In fact, no modern helmet is designed to protect against even 5.56mm NATO round. Patka had that level of protection in its front and sides but then it was too heavy.


That is not true, there are some modem helmets that protect against regular 7.62x39 lead rounds but most helmets can't stop a steel core or copper jacket rounds at close range. A thick Kevlar helmet will stop a lead AK or 5.56 round fired at a distance, but for anything more you require ceramic or hardened steel which makes an helmet very heavy.


Ref: https://www.geek.com/gadgets/advanced-c ... t-1536798/

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby srai » 16 Nov 2017 05:13

rkhanna wrote:Garuds in Israel - cross training with Unit 669
...
Image

To me, the rank patch seems to be too visible in that camo. Remember in Sri Lanka in the initial phases, the IA officers wore highly visible rank patches and they suffered heavy casualties in the hands of LTTE snipers.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 16 Nov 2017 10:13

sohamn wrote:
sohamn wrote:
That is not true, there are some modem helmets that protect against regular 7.62x39 lead rounds but most helmets can't stop a steel core or copper jacket rounds at close range. A thick Kevlar helmet will stop a lead AK or 5.56 round fired at a distance, but for anything more you require ceramic or hardened steel which makes an helmet very heavy.


Ref: https://www.geek.com/gadgets/advanced-c ... t-1536798/

Hi SHohamn. A quote from provided link

A comparison of the M14 and the AK-47 performed by the United States Army shows that the AK-47 can penetrate helmets within a range of 400 meters, whereas it most likely won’t from 400 to 600 meters away.


400 m is hardly a short distance. It is AKM's effective range and most soldier's wont be able to shoot beyond that. If ACH can't even protect that that range, it cannot be stated to provide protection against 7.62*39 round.

But you are right to state that such protection would require ceramic and/or hardened steel which will make the helmet too heavy (case in point patka).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 05 Dec 2017 00:58

Piece below pi$$es me off at multiple levels.

These strikes were a landmark even whereby our whole politico-babu-military combine came out of years of action and deliver a punitive strike on an enemy across the border (in the North Eastern theatre). The last time was in Bhutan in 2003 - also under NDA govt.

Of all the things to talk about, Suhasini Haider and Josy Joseph used the opportunity for pulling off a Hit Job against the current COAS who was sharing some details of the operation with the public. What's distressing is that the hit job originates from the ministries.

The MEA/IFS babubom needs to deliver a relationship with Myanmar despite all the issues and uncomfortable facts. Gagging the Army through hit jobs is not done. Furthermore, I also think this is the journalists way of getting back at Nitin Gokhale as well.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 3.ece/amp/

Suhasini Haidar
Josy Joseph
03 DECEMBER 2017 23:47 IST
UPDATED: 04 DECEMBER 2017 14:05 IST


At a book release function in Pune on Friday, General Rawat elaborated on the cross-border raid carried out by the Army on NSCN-K militant hideouts in Myanmar.

While India is working to improve ties with Myanmar, comments by Chief of the Army Staff General Bipin Rawat, confirming for the first time that Indian troops crossed into Myanmar in 2015 for operations, are being seen as a cause of concern, officials in the Home and External Affairs Ministries have told The Hindu.

However, neither Ministry agreed to comment on the issue. The government has been trying to get Myanmar’s support for its efforts to control cross-border movement of Nationalist Socialist Council of Nagaland rebels and Rohingya refugees.

“The Army Chief should have been mindful of the realities in Myanmar and our efforts there. Such detailed discussion on the operations wouldn’t help the situation at all,” a senior official in the security establishment, who asked not to be named, said.

At a book release function in Pune on Friday, General Rawat elaborated on the cross-border raid carried out by the Army on NSCN-K militant hideouts in Myanmar. He particularly underlined the the difficulties that Special Force commandos faced in Myanmar “after crossing over” and the “heavy losses” they inflicted on the militant camp there. It is the first time a senior government functionary has given such extensive details of the operation.

Gen. Rawat was commanding the Dimapur-based 3 Corps when the surgical strike was carried out on June 10, 2015, in retaliation for an ambush in Manipur when 18 soldiers of 6 Dogra battalion were killed by Myanmar-based militants.

Into the details

Gen. Rawat, who was tasked with overseeing the operation, even told the Pune gathering that he had to alter the original plan because of a call from National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, who asked for the commando team leader to be recalled and briefed before launching operations.

“I got a call from the National Security Advisor asking if I had something in mind. I was a little taken aback because I had already launched the troops for the operation; they were on their way,” Gen. Rawat said.

“The troops which had reached the Myanmar border had to later change their route while carrying out the operation, four days from the day it was initially planned,” he said, revealing that the special commandos donned the uniforms of the 12 Bihar Battalion, which was deployed on the border, to carry out the raid.


While military sources had circulated some details of the operation at the time, the Government of India had moved in quickly to stop any official reports after the Myanmar government and military objected, saying only that an operation was carried out “along the border”.

“We will not allow any foreign military operations in Myanmar territory,” Zaw Htay, Director in the Myanmar President’s office, told journalists a day after the surgical strike. “Every country must respect the other country’s sovereignty.”

According to Myanmar’s constitution Article 41&42, no foreign troops can be deployed within the country’s boundaries for any reason. In a visit to Delhi in October 2016, State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi also reportedly repeated the concerns to Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the issue and a joint statement issued by the leaders “underlined their mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity” when speaking of joint operations against terrorists.

In particular, the government is worried as it is in the process of sensitive negotiations on the Rohingya situation, and had also claimed some success in military-to-military ties with the first ever India-Myanmar Bilateral Military Exercise (IMBAX-2017) at the Joint Warfare Centre at the Umroi Joint Training Node in Meghalaya on November 20.

Gen. Rawat’s statement is seen as a major gaffe, particularly his assertion that more such surgical strikes could be undertaken “if required”.

A senior official said the diplomatic concerns had been conveyed to him.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2018 07:12


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Vips » 06 Jan 2018 10:40

'Garud' eyes new targets in Jammu and Kashmir.

Having tasted major success by eliminating around eight terrorists during their brief stint in Jammu and Kashmir, the Garud Special Forces of the Indian Air Force are raring to go and want to be given more exposure to direct counter terror operations in the state.

The youngest Special Force of the country, which encountered one of its first major operations during the Pathankot air base attack by Pakistan-backed terrorists, is also expanding its numbers to meet its requirements during peace and also war-time roles assigned to it.

"Two of our teams are already in operation in Hajin area of Jammu and Kashmir and they would be replaced by two other units soon. This is going to help more and more of our troops get exposure to real action," a senior Garud officer told MAIL TODAY.

In the aftermath of Pathankot operations, the IAF and Army had agreed to give exposure to the Garuds in counter-terror ops in the Valley and two teams were attached to the 13 Rashtriya Rifles. After a few weeks, they started operating in close coordination with the Army, but also kept developing their own intelligence network.

In the first major operation in Rakh Hajin area of Bandipore in October, the Garuds tasted big success in a direct encounter against Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorists. While tackling a team of six to seven terrorists who were trying to escape from a house even before the cordon could be established, Sergeant Milind Kishore and Corporal Nilesh Nain killed two of them before attaining martyrdom.

The injured terrorists managed to escape but the rattled Garuds started pursuing them. Gathering intelligence, the Special Forces traced a group of terrorists hiding in a house in Chandargeer area.

During the subsequent encounter, the Garuds eliminated six terrorists, majorly due to the bravery of Corporal JP Nirala who used his Negev LMG to kill three of them while pinning down the rest of the group.

"The troops are highly motivated by the acts of valour of our fallen buddies and want to be given more roles in counter-terror ops in Kashmir," another officer said.

"More than 30 per cent volunteers return within weeks of training. Most find it tough to survive the 16-18 hours-a-day life during which they are prepared both physically and mentally to earn their Garud badge," an officer said. A Garud instructor told MAIL TODAY that due to tough selection standards, only 26 officers from different branches have been able to join the elite force in the last 13 years of its existence.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Vips » 10 Jan 2018 00:48

NSG enhances sniping capabilities of its commandos.

Elite counter-terror force NSG has bolstered its sniping capabilities so that it can effectively tackle terrorists and other emerging threats to national security, the force's chief said on Tuesday.

The 'black cat' commando force has procured new sniper weapons and trained more sharp-shooters in the skill in the recent past and is increasingly using them for special operations, NSG Director General S P Singh said.

"The skill of sniping is a big asset for a commando force like us. We have put a greater stress on this domain," Singh told PTI.The National Security Guard (NSG), he said, has also procured advanced sniping weapons and has trained more personnel for special tasks. The NSG DG, however, did not quantify the number of NSG commandos trained in the skill.

Official sources said while snipers were essentially part of NSG assault teams in operations, their numbers were now being increased and used more frequently.

"So, the next time a counter-terror team is making an intervention where a terrorist is holed up, the snipers would not only give them a good cover but also help in neutralising the target in better time," a senior officer said.

PTI, in February last year, had reported that the force, has upgraded its sniper rifles and inducted the German PSG1 A1, which carries an enhanced number of 20 rounds to engage and pin down targets for a longer time and is complemented with longer range and extreme accuracy. The 7.2kg rifle with telescopic sight is an upgrade of the PSG1 sniper variant being used by the marksmen of the NSG till recently.

The sniping discipline has also been included for the first time in the 8th All India Police Commando Competition, being hosted by the NSG this time.
The competition, involving 25 teams from various state police and paramilitary forces, will begin this weekend at the NSG garrison in Manesar near here.

The DG said the NSG desires that all the security forces of the country have "synergy and inter-operability" when it comes to tackling terror threats and attacks.

Singh said the force is "all prepared" to tackle any situation in the run up to the upcoming Republic Day celebrations on January 26.

The NSG was raised in 1986 as the federal contingency force of commandos to counter any variant of terror or hijack threat.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Jan 2018 07:07

^^ NSG has been using PSG1 for donkey years now. The A1 version has minor upgrades, but still uses proprietary optics mount.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jaysimha » 16 Jan 2018 14:11


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jaysimha » 16 Jan 2018 14:18


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2018 05:58


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Austin » 23 Jan 2018 11:38

SPECIAL OPERATIONS INDIA: SURGICAL STRIKES Documentary (ENGLISH)


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Shameek » 24 Jan 2018 22:00

^^ All the English ones I could find on YouTube have audio problems. Found a Hindi dubbed one that worked.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby wig » 29 Jan 2018 19:01

Interview with Col Varun Chhabra, SM, Commanding Officer, 10 th Battalion, The Parachute Regiment ( Special Forces)

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/col ... rview.html
wonderful read
excerpts.
What was your motivation to join the Special Forces?
Ours is a great nation. The very basis of the society is the family system where sons and daughters grow up seeing the world through the eyes of their parents. My father cherished a dream of commanding this elite and finest unit one day. I only hope, that he sees his dream come true through his son. This was and is my motivation.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Jan 2018 23:43

Do you know his father made the supreme sacrifice in OP Pawan. There is a BR article on 10 Para which mentions this. Goes like this ‘when author visited Rashtrapati Bahwan he spoke to Maj Varun Chabra and seeing Vakis an badge mentioned Col Chabra. Major Varun didn’t say anything. 15 mins later when author was leaving Major Varun went up to him and told him that Col Chabra was my father and that’s why I joined his paltan’ And today he has become a Col and has done his father’s memory proud.

This is the magic of the Indian army.


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