Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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ssmitra
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ssmitra »

Raja Bose wrote:
I was referring to the initial incidents where the Para Cdos decided to take down the Akal Takht by assaulting via the Parikrama. Nobody is dissing the troops who fought during Op.Metal against such heavy odds. Clearly if the top brass is insisting that troops fight in socks and not fire in certain directions, it will cause a mess-up regardless of which unit is fighting, SF, non-SF, NSG or Superman!
Not superman he can fight in his undies :lol: :lol:

On a more serious tone and please do correct me, most para-SF (I mean the original battalions 9, 10, and 1) folks tend not to volunteer for NSG simply because like an old friend of mine put it-- I have already been through hell, why would I do it again. One of the main reason he put was that it takes them 8 months to a year build up a solid unbroken rapport with their sections, they don't want to break it up and have to do it all over again.
maybe it was just him...
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

There are plenty of men from Para Cdo in NSG. It might be your friend's personal belief - nothing wrong with it. Each is entitled to his own!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ssmitra »

kobe wrote:for the arm chair field marshals

In Mumbai:
there were 10 heavily armed, trained, and motivated (by nothing less than 72 virgins) in three large buildings, were confronted by our NSG guards and guards suffered two fatalities and a few injuries before the pigs were either sent flying or sent burning...

In Oakland:
compare that with elite SWAT team with all the communications gear, telescopic laser sighted guns, and other gizmos going after one street thug. And three SWAT team members died before the thug was killed. (Which happened only yesterday)

Oakland SWAT operation
Hi Kobe, by comparing the NSG to Oakland SWAT you are really comparing apples to oranges. NSG at the moment can only be compared to FBI-HRT. If you want you should compare Oakland swat to mumbai or delhi police "commandos".
Oakland PD itself is in absolute disarray with its former police chief resigning after differences with the city council. In fact a lot of the city SWAT units are not staffed by dedicated personnel but rather aam cops who have volunteered and passed the SWAT training. Under most conditions they act as regular cops and are called on during emergencies.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

ssmitra wrote:
Hi Kobe, by comparing the NSG to Oakland SWAT you are really comparing apples to oranges. NSG at the moment can only be compared to FBI-HRT. If you want you should compare Oakland swat to mumbai or delhi police "commandos".
Oakland PD itself is in absolute disarray with its former police chief resigning after differences with the city council. In fact a lot of the city SWAT units are not staffed by dedicated personnel but rather aam cops who have volunteered and passed the SWAT training. Under most conditions they act as regular cops and are called on during emergencies.
That is interesting.

Indeed, if SWAT is made up of common policemen who have passed the SWAT training, then it really confuses those like me who are not aware of the training undertaken by the SWAT and their capability, and who were made to understand that SWAT is some super organisation equivalent to the NSG, if not better and that we should clone ourselves to be like SWAT!

What is the reality?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ssmitra »

RayC wrote:
ssmitra wrote:
Hi Kobe, by comparing the NSG to Oakland SWAT you are really comparing apples to oranges. NSG at the moment can only be compared to FBI-HRT. If you want you should compare Oakland swat to mumbai or delhi police "commandos".
Oakland PD itself is in absolute disarray with its former police chief resigning after differences with the city council. In fact a lot of the city SWAT units are not staffed by dedicated personnel but rather aam cops who have volunteered and passed the SWAT training. Under most conditions they act as regular cops and are called on during emergencies.
That is interesting.

Indeed, if SWAT is made up of common policemen who have passed the SWAT training, then it really confuses those like me who are not aware of the training undertaken by the SWAT and their capability, and who were made to understand that SWAT is some super organisation equivalent to the NSG, if not better and that we should clone ourselves to be like SWAT!

What is the reality?


RayC sir maybe this time I can provide some info. (I have however cut paste some info from different websites to save time and get the language right)
firstly SWAT units are city specific and even their capabilities are city specific. It is trained to perform high-risk operations that fall outside of the abilities of regular patrol officers, including serving high-risk arrest warrants, barricaded suspects, hostage rescue, counter-terrorism, and engaging heavily-armed criminals. Hostage rescue can be from holding ones own family/friends at knife point--(quite common among addicts or parole'es who have crossed their third crime limit) to large scale hostage taking like in Waco- texas.
While the public face of SWAT was made known through the LAPD, perhaps because of its proximity to the mass media and the size and professionalism of the Department itself, the first SWAT operations were conducted far north of Los Angeles in the farming community of Delano, California on the border between Kern and Tulare Counties in the great San Joaquin Valley. César Chavez' United Farm Workers were staging numerous protests in Delano, both at cold storage facilities and in front of non-supportive farm workers' homes on the city streets. Delano Police Department answered the issues that arose by forming the first-ever units using special weapons and tactics. Television news stations and print media carried live and delayed reportage of these events across the nation. Personnel from the LAPD, having seen these broadcasts, contacted Delano PD and inquired about the program. One officer then obtained permission to observe Delano Police Department's special weapons and tactics in action, and afterwards took what he'd learned back to Los Angeles where his knowledge was used and expanded on to form their first SWAT unit.

John Nelson was the officer who came up with the idea to form a specially trained and equipped unit in the LAPD, intended to respond to and manage critical situations involving shootings while minimizing police casualties. Inspector Gates approved this idea, and he formed a small select group of volunteer officers. This first SWAT unit initially consisted of fifteen teams of four men each, for a total staff of sixty. These officers were given special status and benefits. They were required to attend special monthly training. This unit also served as a security unit for police facilities during civil unrest. The LAPD SWAT units were organized as "D Platoon" in the Metro division.
The relative infrequency of SWAT call-outs means these expensively-trained and equipped officers cannot be left to sit around, waiting for an emergency. In many departments the officers are normally deployed to regular duties, but are available for SWAT calls via pagers, mobile phones or radio transceivers. Even in the larger police agencies, such as the Los Angeles PD, SWAT personnel would normally be seen in crime suppression roles—specialized and more dangerous than regular patrol, perhaps, but the officers wouldn't be carrying their distinctive armor and weapons.

By illustration, the LAPD's website shows that in 2003, their SWAT units were activated 255 times,[6] for 133 SWAT calls and 122 times to serve high-risk warrants.

The New York Police Department's Emergency Service Unit is one of the few civilian police special-response units that operate autonomously 24 hours a day. However, this unit also provides a wide range of services, including search and rescue functions, and vehicle extraction, normally handled by fire departments or other agencies.

The need to summon widely-dispersed personnel, then equip and brief them, makes for a long lag between the initial emergency and actual SWAT deployment on the ground. The problems of delayed police response at the 1999 Columbine High School shooting has led to changes in police response,[7] mainly rapid deployment of line officers to deal with an active shooter, rather than setting up a perimeter and waiting for SWAT to arrive.
Only thing which the NSG could gain from the SWAT units are their equipment as one of the primary concern is officer safety. I for one would like to see them equipped with better weapons (MP7 or UMP's etc..) as well as safety equipment.

an interesting aspect pf the SWAT units is that in some cities you don't even need to be part of the police to be SWAT you can be a civilian, fire fighter, etc... If you pass their tests (physical etc..) and have the time to log and maintain your marksman skills you can be part of the SWAT unit. (I am not sure if you can be part of the primary assault unit but definitely you can be part of their holding and support units).

denigrating the SWAT units to make NSG look better is uncalled for. The NSG stands on its own with their deeds and sacrifice. but the SWAT officers have also sacrificed for law enforcement and citizen safety.
Last edited by ssmitra on 25 Mar 2009 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Sriman »

ssmitra wrote:Hostage rescue can be from holding ones own family/friends at knife point--(quite common among addicts or parole'es who have crossed their third crime limit) to large scale histage taking like in Waco- texas.
Sir, In Waco it was ATF who tried to serve the warrant originally. It was FBI who were called in after it turned into a siege.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ssmitra »

Sriman wrote:
ssmitra wrote:Hostage rescue can be from holding ones own family/friends at knife point--(quite common among addicts or parole'es who have crossed their third crime limit) to large scale histage taking like in Waco- texas.
Sir, In Waco it was ATF who tried to serve the warrant originally. It was FBI who were called in after it turned into a siege.
just trying to give an example of the range of scenarios they can be called out for
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Sriman »

ssmitra wrote: just trying to give an example of the range of scenarios they can be called out for
Apologies, i misread it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Ray sir,

Some of the better known SWAT units such as those in LAPD, Dallas etc. are very well equipped almost to the level of the US Army units like Delta (some SWAT members have served in units such as UA Army SF, Delta etc.). However, from the perspective of skill-set and the range of operations that can be handled and operational experience, they are nowhere even close to what NSG is capable of and has undertaken. It is chalk-and-cheese/apples-and-oranges comparison. These aping of SWAT units etc. suggestions are usually made by fan boys who are caught up with shiny kit/black kit syndrome.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Nikhil T »

http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/mar/25/guest-terrorism-are-infantry-commandos-the-answer.htm
Terrorism: Are infantry commandos the answer?

March 25, 2009

India has a long tradition, post-independence, of politicians taking arbitrary decisions on security issues. The latest instance is of scuttling the Indian Premier League [Images] cricket tournament citing lack of paramilitary forces! One understands the security compulsions, but pray what stops the government from asking the army to help out? After all, the army is not involved in the conduct of elections (other than in J&K) and can certainly provide the outer cordon instead of the paramilitary forces!

But instead of using these resources, we have surrendered to the terrorists. The Lashkar e Tayiba leaders must be laughing their guts out in their Muridke headquarters near Lahore [Images]. The imbecile media has gone one up by citing the Lahore attack as reason. In one stroke the inept government has reduced India to the status of a 'failed State' that our western neighbour has long acquired.

Even on the issue of how to counter future attacks by terrorists, a similar lack of application is evident.

The Mumbai terror attacks [Images] that shocked the country not only by its senseless violence but by the drama of 10-odd terrorists holding at bay for a full 60-odd hours the world's third largest armed force and a nation of a billion plus people. The nearly 12 hours that it took the National Security Guard to become effective in Mumbai prompted many questions and as a knee-jerk reaction, our lawyer-turned-economist-turned-security-expert Home Minister P Chidambaram [Images] announced that the NSG will be expanded and will be stationed in all four corners of the country.

To the long-time observer of the internal security scene, this smacks more of window dressing at worst or a typical Indian response of getting more of the same. Obviously the service chief was not consulted before this announcement and it now transpires that the army does not have the officers to spare (especially young officers) for this expansion. Anyone even slightly familiar with the situation in J&K or the northeast is well aware of this major problem, so this should not be seen as a typical case of bellyaching or obstructionism. It must be noted that the NSG that deals with terrorists (as opposed to VIP security) is exclusively manned by army soldiers and officers.

But does this mean that we do without the specialist force needed for instant action? Fortunately there is an alternative, the Ghaatak platoons of the infantry battalions. But before I am accused of flippancy, let us analyse the problem in depth. Essentially, the threat to our urban centres and its vulnerable points and installations is from small groups of terrorists either infiltrated from across the border or of the home-grown variety. Fortunately, there are no 'liberated zones' in our country and the terrorists will continue to act in small groups. Speed of reaction rather than sophistication of the force or large numbers, will be of utmost importance in gaining success against them.

Attributes of a commando

There are lots of myths and misconceptions about a commando, largely a product of the Rambo [Images] image and promoted by the illiterate media. A typical commando is a normal soldier but with extra qualities like:

Physically super fit.

Mentally tough.

Highly motivated and disciplined.

Well-trained.

Equipped with the appropriate weapons and equipment.

But successful action also needs advance planning, leadership and finally a well-thought-out command and control apparatus.

The normal infantry battalion (of which the Indian army [Images] has close to 400, approximately) has had a commando platoon; (now called Ghaatak Platoons) for a long time. I myself had trained one way back in 1971, and it achieved spectacular results during the war. But the commando platoons of the infantry have only the first four attributes described above. It is not equipped with the kind of gadgets that the Special Forces have, though some special weapons are given to them (like silencer guns et al). If only the infantry battalion Ghaatak Platoons are equipped with the latest gadgets, they will be a great asset in fighting terrorism.

Without looking for extra land and locations for the NSG hubs as proposed by the home minister, if every infantry battalion gets a well-equipped commando platoon, the needs of security will be met. The NSG will remain a special force that can build on the commando platoons should the task be beyond their capability. I do not oppose the additional NSG hubs, but propose that beside this action, every infantry battalion must have a well-equipped commando platoon.

Analysing the threat

With the terrorist attacks in Varanasi, Delhi [Images], Jaipur [Images], Bengaluru [Images], Ahmedabad [Images], Surat [Images], Guwahati and of course Mumbai, it should be by now clear as daylight that the terrorists have the whole of India on their radar. It is funny that the government and media concentrates on teh lack of CCTV at Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus [Images]. Do we realise that if we put in place security measures at Mumbai, the terrorists will simply target Pune, Kolhapur or Ghaziabad or some such place. Are we going to defend each and every of the 5,000 plus railway stations? Can we?

In all the hullabaloo over the Mumbai attack, an even more chilling revelation by terrorists ought to have woken us up. The terrorist caught for his role in the attack on Bengaluru's Indian Institute of Science revealed that their plan was to break into the conference hall and kill the maximum number of scientists. Thanks to the chaotic Bangalore traffic the plan could not be carried out. Imagine the damage to the nation if our top scientists were eliminated in one go. If this is not war declared against our country, then what is? When will we realise that we are at war?

I understand perfectly the reluctance of the armed forces to get into this messy situation. But the truth is that post nuclearisation of the subcontinent, there is no high ground, and warfare has also changed irrevocably. The earlier we get used to it, the better for the safety and security of our nation.

Colonel Dr Anil Athale (retired), is a Chhatrapati Shivaji Fellow of the USI studying internal security and co-ordinator of the Pune-based Inpad. He is also a commando 'qualified fit for instructor' of 1969 vintage and an ex-infantry officer
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rkhanna »

Army chief General Deepak Kapoor said the high casualties of Indian Special Forces — all eight from the crack 1 Para — indicated a “high level of military training.”
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10722


Anybody have any specific Info as to the Nature of the Contact that 8 SF operators had to die. Considering that we were they ones doing the ambushing?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

SSMitra,,Sriman, Raja Bose,

Thank you for the information.

It was helpful in understanding SWAT and it modus operandi.

In other words, the SWAT has its own tasks chalked out as the NSG has it own.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Anshul »

rkhanna wrote:
Army chief General Deepak Kapoor said the high casualties of Indian Special Forces — all eight from the crack 1 Para — indicated a “high level of military training.”
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10722


Anybody have any specific Info as to the Nature of the Contact that 8 SF operators had to die. Considering that we were they ones doing the ambushing?
Looks like casualties were spread out across multiple engagements.The pigs were able to dig in at vantage points and the ghatak/para teams were either killed by pigs trying to break cordon or were just sniped at.

Major Rohit Sharma along with two NCOs was killed when the pigs fired from a ridge.With the terrain being that difficult...and pressure from above to clean up...the teams may have walked into the firing range of the pigs.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Amitabh »

RayC wrote:SSMitra,,Sriman, Raja Bose,

Thank you for the information.

It was helpful in understanding SWAT and it modus operandi.

In other words, the SWAT has its own tasks chalked out as the NSG has it own.
In a nutshell, the justification for Indian SWAT teams in major cities is (1) lower response time and (2) increased local knowledge.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ramana »

The J&K news and discussion thread has the details of the Kupwara incident. And gives good description of the Para Commando unit and its equipment.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

Isnt this our single biggest loss of SF guys in a single operation (atleast in open domain) since Bluestar( Kargil was direct military conflict and not a encounter as such)?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

Small dubt from the IE article on the encounter:
Five militants were killed while four Army men, Havaldar Rakesh Kumar, Nayak Sanjay Anna and Para troopers Manoj Kumar and Shabir Ahmad, were killed.
If all the dead were from 1 Para, why are only two mentioned as "para trooper" while the other two are only "havaldar"?

Is it DDM or actual nomenclature in Para battalions?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Lalmohan »

on SWAT versus NSG and Mumbai scenario - some of the more astute analysis I have read recently suggests that local police should have a 'general' commando team who can 'fix' the terrorists in place, i.e. contain them. this commando team would be more than a match for normal criminals and armed gangs in cities, but good enough to hold hardcore terrorists. central specialist forces are then required to remove/eliminate them, the local team buying time and limiting casualties until the specialists arrive. this is suggested as the most cost effective method rather than have full-on specialists all over the place.

in the mumbai case, marcos played the fixing role (luckily being based nearby) to some extent until NSG arrived.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

Sum: IIRC, Johnies (jawans) in the PARA battalions are referred to as Paratroopers/Ptr, while others having attained a rank will be referred to as such (Havaldar in this case)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by RayC »

Amitabh wrote:
RayC wrote:SSMitra,,Sriman, Raja Bose,

Thank you for the information.

It was helpful in understanding SWAT and it modus operandi.

In other words, the SWAT has its own tasks chalked out as the NSG has it own.
In a nutshell, the justification for Indian SWAT teams in major cities is (1) lower response time and (2) increased local knowledge.
Would be the same for NSG.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

urban india is different from leading global threat cities like NYC / london / Chicago in that mobility is weak due to congested roads and lack of dedicated police transport helicopters.

imagine if a incident took place in electronic city, how long it would take by road
in daytime from yelehanka - atleast 60mins even with sirens blaring.

by then the terrorists could well have done their mayhem and escaped.

its a unsolvable problem - the best soln is to keep pakistan on the boil and keep
them at each others throats.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by satya »

During early 90s when Punjab was on boil & Late Sardar . Beant Singh just became CM of Punjab , Haryana was also on boil specially districts bordering Punjab with cities like Kaithal & Ambala more than others. During this peak time , Haryana Police's emergency response teams in City/Urban areas ( don't remember what their name was for sake of clarity using this emergency response team ) ETA on crime scene was 3 minutes & was brought down to 2 minutes .Most were young recruits but none had regular advanced specialized training like NSG troops . Point is its possible to cut down the response time to a situation , need the right attitude & perhaps imaginative leadership at helm .
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

I am leaning towards Singhas view

Beyond some level there is no chance in congested cities like Mumbai, Bangalore - only way is helos.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ssmitra »

satya wrote:During early 90s when Punjab was on boil & Late Sardar . Beant Singh just became CM of Punjab , Haryana was also on boil specially districts bordering Punjab with cities like Kaithal & Ambala more than others. During this peak time , Haryana Police's emergency response teams in City/Urban areas ( don't remember what their name was for sake of clarity using this emergency response team ) ETA on crime scene was 3 minutes & was brought down to 2 minutes .Most were young recruits but none had regular advanced specialized training like NSG troops . Point is its possible to cut down the response time to a situation , need the right attitude & perhaps imaginative leadership at helm .
Satya I think I know who you are talking about. They used to wear brown overalls and were often known as bhuri billi, or brown cats.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

Link
He fought LeT in 26/11, dies fighting them in Kupwara


Srinagar: The Hafruda forests and the snowy reaches of Shamshabari are a world removed from Nariman House but this was where Lance Naik Anil Kumar of 1 Para, who while on deputation with the NSG had taken on the 26/11 terrorists, fell to militant bullets last Sunday while battling Lashkar infiltrators in Kupwara.

A seasoned paratrooper, Anil Kumar had returned home to a hero’s welcome in Hamirpur in Himachal Pradesh after the Mumbai operation. “He was the commando with a medium machine gun when the NSG stormed Nariman House. He was a hero,” an officer of the 1 Para told 'The Indian Express'.

Returning from the NSG to his special forces unit, Kumar took a month’s leave to spend time with his family. After that, he joined his unit in Kupwara. Last week, when the orders came to stop the Lashkar infiltrators, Kumar was among the soldiers who accompanied Major Mohit Sharma as they set out to comb the Hafruda forests.

This small group of para commandos came under heavy fire from militants hiding in the heights. Anil Kumar was among the four who went down in the firefight — the other three were Major Sharma, Sanjay Singh and Nikhar Singh. The 1 Para continued to engage the militants and gunbattles raged for five days. Eight Armymen, 17 militants died in the operation.

Combing operations are still on and a militant, suspected to be part of the same group of infiltrators, was killed today after he was tracked down to a house in Hachmarg. It is suspected that at least seven other militants, part of the same group, are still at large. :x
He escapes one set of Pakis but is caught out by another!!!! :cry:
I salute this brave warrior....

However, the last line (seven pigs still at large) is very worrying..
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by satya »

Satya I think I know who you are talking about. They used to wear brown overalls and were often known as bhuri billi, or brown cats.
I think they started wearing brown dress some 10 yrs or so ago but not at peak of Punjab militancy . At tht time it used to be same police dress & black cloth on head tht separated them from rest of police and they had gone an intensive 3 month training program ( many new recruits did that training for they use to get 30 rs per day as additional diet money to ear tht extra buck ) .

Yes they were & even now called as bhurri billis :lol: & now are mostly used for personal security duties around CM & Ministers & ex CMs .
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rajput »

satya wrote:. . . . need the right attitude & perhaps imaginative leadership at helm .
That is all you need. All of our security organizations are very top heavy.
The focus seems to be to keep parity with the Civilian bureaucracy (and the IPS chaps) in
promotions, etc. We are creating Commands out of thin air just so that there's an extra LtG post.
Why did we get into this rat race? Who cares if an IPS chap attains the rank equivalent of a Brigadier
in 10 years but it takes 20 in the Army?


I am really depressed at the loss of 8 chaps, especially 8 SF chaps, this week. Very sad day indeed.
Just logged in to express my gratitude to these brave soldiers.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rajput »

Khalsa wrote:I believe it was a bit more than that. The General made inappropriate use of Div CSD services for personal and/ or private gains. However strict scruples at those time were enough to see him off. These days that kind of activity would not even be a blip on the radar of anyone.

Either way the end was a very sad saga for the Nation, Army and the Sikhs.
Yes, he got caught in some CSD ghapla . From Jabalpur (where it happened) he was posted as GOC UP Area, pending the results of the Court of Inquiry. He wasn't a happy man, for obvious reasons; he felt that he was a victim of internal politics.

Probably the CSD system has killed the career of more officers than anything else.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Amitabh »

RayC wrote:
Amitabh wrote: In a nutshell, the justification for Indian SWAT teams in major cities is (1) lower response time and (2) increased local knowledge.
Would be the same for NSG.
Yes but I think the key difference is that SWAT teams would be embedded in local police networks and intelligence. The main problem in India is bureaucracy and hierarchy and I think it makes a difference if a police chief can order a SWAT team into action without waiting to send requests up and down the chain of command. We have seen repeated failures because of this, be it the 1999 Kandahar episode or the Mumbai attacks. I think NYPD and LAPD have the right approach.

As Lalmohan mentioned above, a SWAT team can engage the terrorists/criminals and await an NSG team if it us unable to deal with the problem on its own. A SWAT team would certainly have been able to deal with Kasab and Ismail in CST.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Vipul »

NSG to be armed and ready with hi-tech weapons.

Post 26/11, the National Security Guards are on a shopping spree. TOI has found out that the elite counter-terrorism force has invited global bids for state-of-the-art weapons and equipment that will put them in the same league as the best in the world, namely the British SAS and the American SWAT.

So the next time terrorists are holed up in a building, the NSG commandos will be able to first get their measure by sending in mini remote-operated vehicles (ROV) from half-a-km away. The ROV will climb up stairs and inclines, look around corners and send back live video images of the terrorists' positions. And just in case they turn off the lights, the ROV will switch to night vision. It will be especially useful in a scenario like the sieges at Taj and Oberoi hotels as the mini ROV can sneak up on terrorists and gather information without alerting them.

The commandos will also manage to eavesdrop on terrorists' conversations from a distance of 400 mts with special laser-listening devices that pick up vocals, record them and transmit them back. Such equipment would have been of great help to NSG men at Nariman House where they watched over two terrorists for almost three days from a distance of barely a few metres. The agency is also buying audio and video bugs that look like ordinary buttons or tie pins for snooping on the enemy.

The NSG is making some significant additions to its weaponry. Apart from buying hundreds of conventional assault rifles and pistols, NSG commandos will carry lethal stun guns that will immobilise the target with a bolt of electricity. This will help in catching terrorists alive for interrogation. Another heavy-duty addition to the armoury will be "anti-material'' rifles capable of shooting 12.7 mm slugs through thick plates of armour and concrete.

The 26/11 experience taught the NSG the importance of keeping tabs on terrorists' electronic chatter. All the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) gunmen in Mumbai were in constant touch over mobiles with their handlers in Pakistan and kept getting precise instructions on how to engage the security forces. So the NSG is now buying four high-tech signal monitoring devices that will intercept all communication in and out of a building.

Other objects for which bids have been invited include sophisticated night vision devices mounted on rifles to help the commandos spot terrorists in the dark and bomb detectors that can find explosives hidden underwater. During the waiting game of a long siege, the commandos will sit in specially-designed armoured vehicles that will withstand grenade attacks and be air-conditioned for comfort at the same time.

Mumbaikars, who will never forget the sight of NSG men in black rappelling down a helicopter above Nariman House, will be glad to know that the NSG has also placed orders for 600 pairs of gloves that will protect the commandos' hands when they slither down a rope to take on the enemy.
Surya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

saw an interesting movie Tropa De Elite about the BOPE - the Brazilian special police force.

pretty good
Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Vipul wrote:NSG to be armed and ready with hi-tech weapons.

Post 26/11, the National Security Guards are on a shopping spree. TOI has found out that the elite counter-terrorism force has invited global bids for state-of-the-art weapons and equipment that will put them in the same league as the best in the world, namely the British SAS and the American SWAT :roll: .
Sometimes our DDM needs re-education via the business end of a hammer :evil:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by kaangeya »

...post 26/11, the National Security Guards are on a shopping spree. TOI has found out that the elite counter-terrorism force has invited global bids for state-of-the-art weapons and equipment that will put them in the same league as the best in the world, namely the British SAS and the American SWAT.
Our media surely employs the largest collection of sub-100 IQ morons, even then it takes a special kind of stupidity to come up with a gem like this report.

Check out what I have written earlier on these threads about US SWAT. The sort of urban attacks the piglets are mounting these days will overwhelm even a full time SWAT like that of the NYPD. The lines between hostage rescue and counter-terror-assault are blurring fast, simply because terror groups the world over are learning fast that there is no point in taking one or two hostages. In Mexico as well as Brazil - which for some reason no dork reporter in India seems to care about - the criminal gangs are now so large and well armed that they aren't bothering to take hostages any longer, they just shoot to kill and create panic.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaurav_S »

IAF fight club gets lethal
The Indian Air Force commandos have set their sights on becoming unstoppable killing machines.

The IAF’s special operations wing, Garud, has begun training its commandos in a deadly form of martial arts practiced by the the likes of Russian Spetsnaz special force, German GSG9 commandos, the US Delta Force, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Austrian Cobra commandos.

The commandos are perfecting the deceptive moves of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, a 112-year-old fighting style specific to Filipino martial arts, at their Chandinagar base on the outskirts of New Delhi.

“We have selected 30 of our best commandos and trained them in the basics of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali used by the some of the world’s top special operations units. The IAF will train the entire Garud force of around 500 commandos in this fighting style. The ones already trained have proved to be a cut above the rest,” said an IAF officer, not authorised to speak to the media.

Pekiti-Tirsia Kali is a close-quarter combat system against multiple opponents based on the use of blade.

The IAF raised its first Garud flight of 60 commandos in 2005. The commandos are tasked with protecting airfields from terrorist attacks, capturing enemy airfields and carrying out hostage rescue operations.

“The underlying philosophy of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali is to kill your opponent in three seconds and get out of there. Alive. You know with one hundred per cent certainty that you could kill anyone who is a threat,” said 31-year-old Kanishka Sharma, who is training the IAF’s commando force.

Sharma has also helped the army’s special forces (1 Para and 21 Para) and Assam Rifles’ crack troops hone their close combat skills through martial arts such Shaolin kung fu, muay chaiya and Bruce Lee-devised jeet kune do.

“The Garuds are an exceptional force — tough, rugged and intelligent. With Pekiti-Tirsia Kali skills, they will become more lethal than ever before,” said Sharma, who has trained the likes of Akshay Kumar and John Abraham and choreographed the fight sequences in Farhan Akhtar’s Don.

The Garuds trained in the basics of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali have learnt techniques of close-quarter knife, gun disengagement and tactical arrest. After completing the one-year training module, they will know that apart from swords, daggers, knives and sticks, the deadliest weapon of them all is the human body.

The IAF’s Garud force is the first Indian special operations unit to train in this form of martial arts to make its dirty work much easier to carry out.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by kobe »

gauravsurati wrote:IAF fight club gets lethal

.... the likes of Russian Spetsnaz special force, German GSG9 commandos, the US Delta Force, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Austrian Cobra commandos.

“We have selected 30 of our best ......style. The ones already trained have proved to be a cut above the rest,” said an IAF officer, not authorised to speak to the media.
....
“The underlying philosophy of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali ......is a threat,” said 31-year-old Kanishka Sharma, who is training the IAF’s commando force.

Sharma has also helped the army’s special forces (1 Para and 21 Para) ........and Bruce Lee-devised jeet kune do. .

......to make its dirty work much easier to carry out.
If he is not authorised to speak to the media... yet he gave all this information to Hindustan Times...., true commando nature, always break the rules.....
Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

A lot of the article seems to have excited prattle from a DDM fanboy/babe. Allah help us all when such DDM rule the roost. At least this time though, they forgot to mention elite US SWAT teams and SSG Musa Company :roll:
Surya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

THis looks like the same fraudulent husband wife team which claims they train the SF

Guess they conned their way into some senior officers good books

:eek:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Venkarl »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLh79Gml ... re=related

training is amazing...very impressive....sorry if posted already
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by SaiK »

thought i shall put this here.. may watch and move it else where.. its OT., but related.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/63237/inside-special-forces
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by kaangeya »

The Maharashtra Police video is pretty impressive. Some of the better PDs in the US require this level of marksmanship training. The cadets seem pretty impressive taking these long shots at buddy/dummies. and the colonel guy looks like bad news. When a 60 year old can stay out on the range active all day long you wouldn't want to meet him on a dark night in a blind alley. States and cities in India should be encouraged and funded to raise their own SF/QRTs with the best they can. TN and AP have done pretty well in this respect and their SFs are trained and armed v. well. According to 1st hand reports the TN police did a . good job taking care of the cricket teams recently in Chennai. I believe they had about 3-4 men and women in mufti for every cricketer/coach round hte clock, with extensive use of decoys. And in terms of firepower there was enough going to around to turn a big US city green with envy.

Re the other hilarious article on IAF Garuds' unarmed combat training, it seems like pure fiction. The Indian police/SF/paramilitary do train with a couple of well run karate schools of the Goju Ryu. But remain deeply skeptical of how much unarmed combat can help excepting in a crunch. Years ago when I trained at RVT Mani's Budokai dojo in Chennai (Spur Tank Road, Egmore), -incidentally no pushover dojo like the many fake bullshido ones that hand out belts and certificates for cash - we had a Para veteran, a 50 year old major, who was taking classes for fun. This man although technically only a green belt was fearsome and scared the wazoo out of all the black belts. But true to form and his craft he obediently would go through the motions! Traditional Indian battlecraft, north, south, east, or west - kalari, ghatka etc., is very clear about killing as many as you can as quickly as you ca and getting the hell out of Dumka. And the Indian arts aren't for sport and recreation. They are meant to maim and kill. The high leaps in kalari are not for unarmed combat like in kung fu inspired variants. They are meant for armed combat with swords, knives, khuttars, and the club. for unarmed combat you have a variety of locks, throws, holds, etc., every one of which is v.deadly. If you want to do sport you usually did dance, like chhau and the many classical and folk dances all of which overlap extensively with the martial arts moves.
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