Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Apr 2009 18:13

Raja

I agree they still do the drills.

MP was not impressed with the drills they were doing more recently (around Akshardham time).

This was related in a conversation to another SF veteran - and a BRadmin was in attendance.

Secondly thepoint MP and other veterans make is that they are 2 seperate issues
1. keeping up the professional competence
2. keeping upgraded in terms of equipment

The first is the responsibility of the NSG big wigs.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Apr 2009 20:28

Surya,

Any shortcomings in the training side which Choudhary mentioned, which you can share publicly?
Would be quite interesting to know.
Thanks.

I would say, the 2nd part (equipment) is also part of NSG brass's responsibility and an example perhaps of their failure - too much tied down to bureaucratic thinking. For small units within NSG it should be possible to quickly get the specialized equipment in small quantities without going thru whole tender-babu-bribe-scandal drama every time.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Apr 2009 21:01

Raja

I was not there - one of the BRadmins was and he relayed it to me.

But he has pretty much covered it in his blog - the only difference in personal conversations was the names of the some of the folks who have were basically unfit to lead

and who have let down the NSG.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Apr 2009 21:17

What a salad bar ... I mean, his Wound Medal is the last ribbon on the second row, fer Chrissake!! What a salad bar ... !!
Not to mention para wings, and combat diver badge ..

Is the badge above the ribbons the combat divers badge

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Apr 2009 21:19

Surya wrote:Raja

I was not there - one of the BRadmins was and he relayed it to me.

But he has pretty much covered it in his blog - the only difference in personal conversations was the names of the some of the folks who have were basically unfit to lead and who have let down the NSG.

Can you give us the link?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Apr 2009 21:39

Check HAriC's poston page 26

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Apr 2009 21:50

This is the post Surya was talking about...

Someone please answer my question given two posts above also!!!!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Apr 2009 22:00

From reading MP's blog it seems that the Special Group was being honed along the lines of Delta or DEVGRU in the context of being able to take part in operations anywhere in the world. If what he says is true - all the training, coordination efforts with IAF, even local traffic police etc. detailed to the last dot and airlift capabilities that had been envisioned, trained for and made available even back then in the 80s, it is truly impressive and exactly what should have been made available .....I wonder where it all went? I find it a little hard to believe that all that effort was gone in a puff of smoke - or were the efforts only at planning stages with some small feasibility studies/training done before it was prematurely canned by ministry babus/future NSG brass due to finance reasons?

Moreover this more-the-merrier strategy for ballooning up our SF unit strength by the round 1000s is going to make them as effective as Jayalalitha amma in a 100m sprint.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Apr 2009 22:09

In desh all it needs is a sequence of 3 or 4 incompetent leaders and things go down the drain.

None are immune

SF , NSG - all of them

as for the rapid increase in SF strength - we actually have a culprit who wanted it to happen and a supine CYA Army HQ which did not want to deal with it.

sum
Yes

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 07 Apr 2009 22:16

Raja Bose wrote:From reading MP's blog it seems that the Special Group was being honed along the lines of Delta or DEVGRU in the context of being able to take part in operations anywhere in the world. If what he says is true - all the training, coordination efforts with IAF, even local traffic police etc. detailed to the last dot and airlift capabilities that had been envisioned, trained for and made available even back then in the 80s, it is truly impressive and exactly what should have been made available .....I wonder where it all went? I find it a little hard to believe that all that effort was gone in a puff of smoke - or were the efforts only at planning stages with some small feasibility studies/training done before it was prematurely canned by ministry babus/future NSG brass due to finance reasons?

Moreover this more-the-merrier strategy for ballooning up our SF unit strength by the round 1000s is going to make them as effective as Jayalalitha amma in a 100m sprint.

Isn't that exactly the problem with all the para military units as well.
BSF CRPF etc..., instead of increasing training and equipment they are just raising more and more battalions.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 08 Apr 2009 00:07

On the part of the Navy, it is said that the authorities wanted the requisition in writing but later sent a group of Naval Commandos (MARCOs) who found themselves utterly untrained for such an operation, and were withdrawn when the NSG arrived (late) from Manesar via Delhi

Comments on the above.. Its from Col C's blog. AFAIK the Marcos did a pretty good job in containment and were critical to the NSG's success?

and IMO this is the most important part of his critique of the NSG

The NSG commandos were thrown in without any information, intelligence or plan of action, and the sword of senior officers (The Director General NSG himself, one Major General, two Brigadiers) hung over the operational commanders. The operational commanders were never given the freedom to plan and execute their operations. These inexperienced senior and police officers thrust their own ideas upon the operational commanders, interfered with their operations and preferred to be in front of TV cameras instead of being in the tactical HQs which they never set up.

On their part, the NSG boys fought bravely but never did give effect to a Commando Special Force Operation which should have been quick, rather lightning, precise and surgical.They fought like infantry trained in urban warfare, unlike what the SAS, MOSAD, GSG-9, GIGN and other special forces of the world would have done. There was utter lack of imagination and unconventionalism

The Very nature of Special Forces is Unconventional Direct Action. This above is a mindset that has started to plaque our special forces. It can be seen in the hasty increase in SF battalions (conversions) and the raising of HRT/CT units for South India.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Apr 2009 01:35

A crying need to start rectifying the issue (at least the SF's ) by seperating the SF into its own regiment.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 01:56

ssmitra wrote: Isn't that exactly the problem with all the para military units as well.
BSF CRPF etc..., instead of increasing training and equipment they are just raising more and more battalions.

BSF and CRPF are a slightly different case since they are essentially line units and will be to a certain extent manpower intensive. The SF are not and cannot be designed to be manpower intensive....in fact their very role and rationale is based on small teams and as force multipliers where smaller more highly trained/equipped groups can achieve larger results.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 08 Apr 2009 05:08

Surya wrote:A crying need to start rectifying the issue (at least the SF's ) by seperating the SF into its own regiment.

OK, and what would that realistically gain you?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Apr 2009 06:20

Surya wrote:
A crying need to start rectifying the issue (at least the SF's ) by seperating the SF into its own regiment.

Pargha wrote:
OK, and what would that realistically gain you?

1. For a start it would prevent the Para generals forcing a decision like converting all Para battalions wholesale into SF units with diluted probationery requirements

2. it will allow it to maintain its own ethos, spirit de corp and develop training reqmnts

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 07:17

ParGha wrote:
Surya wrote:A crying need to start rectifying the issue (at least the SF's ) by seperating the SF into its own regiment.
OK, and what would that realistically gain you?

It will gain you a separate independent identity, without being connected to a parent conventional unit by an ever-present umblical chord. It will allow more independent formulaton of their doctrine, training, thinking, ethos and allow them to push for their unique role to the IA higher-ups. It will imply that the SF are only commanded by their own (who understand what they stand for and can communicate the same to higher-ups) and not by some general from a regular Para unit. At present grouping Para SF with regular Para means they are seen as some sort of extension of the regular Para and not as a separate unit which can and has to be tasked with missions which do not fall under the responsibility of conventional units. Para can be seen as elite infantry, Para (SF) can certainly be not! Otherwise we are wasting away the training and lives of these carefully chosen few.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 08 Apr 2009 08:01

Surya wrote:1. For a start it would prevent the Para generals forcing a decision like converting all Para battalions wholesale into SF units with diluted probationery requirements

Separation is too late a measure to rectify that - nominally there are far more "SF" battalions than regular Para battalions! You will only be gutting the Parachute Regiment to furnish this new regiment. It will essentially be the same action you decried in the last page. If the SF are indeed to be separate, and I agree the idea has its merits, then all the existing battalions must be returned to the Parachute Regiment and a new corps raised with a clean slate.

Surya wrote:2. it will allow it to maintain its own ethos, spirit de corp and develop training reqmnts

A regiment, as the idea is understood in the Indian Army, is probably not be the most appropriate grouping for special operations forces. Special forces are best left in amorphous commands.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 08 Apr 2009 08:27

Kupwara again: 2 para commandos, 2 militants killed in forest gunbattle

Posted in J & K news and discussion

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Apr 2009 09:17

We seem to be loosing SF warriors at a alarming rate!!!! (11 lost in a month, atleast according to open source info)

Anyways, below article might be partly related to SF:

Link
Mumbai Police modernisation generates controversy

Praveen Swami

Weapons purchased without conducting field tests or competitive evaluation

MUMBAI: Ill-planned efforts to upgrade the counter-terrorism capabilities of the Mumbai Police may have led to the acquisition of outdated and inappropriate weapons, highly placed government sources told The Hindu.

Last month, the police placed orders for four new weapons without conducting field trials to determine their effectiveness in local conditions or evaluating the competing technologies.

The police planners selected the Colt M4 5.56-millimetre carbine for assault roles, the Brügger & Thomet sub-compact MP9 for close-protection duties, the Smith & Wesson Military and Police 9-millimetre pistol as a personal sidearm and the M107 50-calibre Special Application Rifle.

But experts in the National Security Guards and the Army told The Hindu that the choices made were less than transparent.

For example, the United States military special forces are replacing the Colt M4s with new-generation European-made weapons. And the state-of-the-art MP9 is intended to protect VIPs in environments where it is inappropriate to display guns — a responsibility the Mumbai Police do not have.

The M107 SAR, a lethal weapon designed to penetrate armour and bullet-proof glass, has been selected despite the risk of collateral damage and the fact that the Mumbai Police have no range on which personnel could be trained in its use.

Highly placed police sources said the weapons were chosen by a committee comprising Police Commissioner Hasan Gaffur, Additional Commissioner of Police (Protection) Vinay Khargaonkar and Joint Commissioner of Police (Traffic) Sanjay Barwe.

Off the record, Mumbai Police officials said the force chose to bypass testing and competitive evaluation procedures because of the urgent need for new weapons.

Mr. Gaffur did not respond to phone calls and a text message seeking information on how the weapons systems were chosen.

Notably, the committee did not hold consultations with the Maharashtra Police and the NSG, which have primary responsibility for counter-terrorism roles in Mumbai.

On April 2, the Maharashtra government passed orders creating Force One, a 350-man crack special weapons and tactics formation modelled on the NSG. According to the order, Force One, rather than the Mumbai Police, will have the primary responsibility of counter-terrorism operations in the city — making it possible that the expensive weapons the committee ordered will never be used.

Later this year, the NSG will begin operations from a new 25-acre facility in the city’s Kalina area. The NSG personnel in Kalina will be equipped with much of the special equipment the Mumbai Police ordered, including the M107 SAR and the Brügger & Thomet MP9.

Union Home Ministry officials in New Delhi, who granted permission to the Mumbai Police to import the new equipment last month, declined to comment on the controversy.

“It is our job to act as a facilitator of modernisation and not to sit in judgment on what equipment best meets the needs of a particular state. While we may have our concerns, we do not wish to be cast as spoilers,” a senior official said.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Apr 2009 09:20

Link

No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns

Praveen Swami

Modernisation programme built around outdated, inappropriate weapons

MUMBAI: In the wake of November 2008 carnage, the Mumbai Police promised the people that it would soon arm itself with the equipment it needed to evolve into a credible counter-terrorism force.

In the next few weeks, the police will receive the first of the new guns it desperately needs. But experts in India’s elite forces and military have told The Hindu that the four critical weapons systems do not in fact pack much of a bang. Ordered without competitive field trials, the weapons are being criticised as technologically suspect and inappropriate to local needs.

M4 Colt 5.56 Carbine

The Mumbai Police planners have chosen this assault weapon, which had been in service with militaries and special forces around the worldjust as it is being phased out.

During the Vietnam War, the United States troops discovered the limitations of North Atlantic Treaty Organisation-standard 7.62 x 51 millimetre rifles and in response to their needs, Colt designed the now-classic M16 rifle.

For special forces’ use in urban counter-terrorism contexts—situations where accuracy can be sacrificed for ease of use in confined spaces—the M16’s designers produced a variant with a short barrel and folding stock – the M4 carbine.

Despite its distinguished pedigree, the M4 suffers from several problems inherent to the gas-optimised system that powers its firing mechanism: among them, jamming and heavy component wear and tear.

Given that the M4 will serve the Mumbai Police for three decades and more, the choice of technology is debatable. Even as the police prepare to take delivery of the Carbine, some of its users are switching to more modern systems. The United States’ Marines have chosen the Fabrique Nationale Herstal Special Forces Compact Assault Rifle, while the crack Delta Force has picked the Heckler and Koch M4.

Sub-compact version

In service with crack forces such as the Special Protection Group (SPG) and National Security Guards, the Brügger & Thomet MP9 is a sub-compact version of the classic MP5 A4 and MP5 A3 machine-pistols.

Designed to be concealed inside the clothes of close-protection guards assigned to VIPs, the MP9 has a retractable stock and the magazine is fitted inside the grip. Like other weapons of this kind, it trades accuracy for size.

The Mumbai Police planners are thought to have ordered over 200 MP9 units—a surprise number, given that responsibility for protecting the State’s VIPs lies with a special unit of the Maharashtra Police. Moreover, it has ordered none of the more accurate MP5 series.

Experts in the armed forces believe that the Mumbai Police ought to have evaluated newer weapons systems before making a purchase decision.

For a variety of technical reasons, the 9 millimetre ammunition used by the MP5A4 is known to be less than optimally efficient at generating the neurological shock that kills or incapacitates targets. Designers have sought to compensate for the design flaws in the 9 millimetre system by creating what are known as hollow-point bullets.

But many crack forces have switched over to newer ammunition systems.

The SPG, for example, uses the 5.27 x 8 millimetre Fabrique Nationale Herstal P90. Built around what designers call a ‘Bullpup’ frame, the P90 is compact without compromising on accuracy.

Smith & Wesson M&P 9 Millimetre Pistol

This is a new weapon designed to break into a market dominated by European manufacturers Glock, Heckler and Koch and Sig Sauer. It has so far had little success. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security, for example, rejected the home-manufactured Smith & Wesson in favour of Europe’s Sig Sauer and Heckler and Koch.

Most police forces in India, including the Maharashtra Police, have purchased the popular Glock 9 millimetre. But Mumbai Police sources said the decision to purchase Smith & Wesson was made because of problems reported with the Glock from Punjab and elsewhere.

However, the problems are believed to be the result of sub-standard ammunition and not faulty design.
M82/M107 Special Application Rifle

This weapon, earlier known as the M82, is the most powerful small arm in the world; anything larger counts as a canon. Its 50-calibre shells can punch through Level 8 ballistic glass, the strongest available, and puncture armoured vehicles—this, at ranges upwards of 2.5 kilometres.

In theory, this power is useful for shooting terrorists through concrete walls, after identifying their locations with thermal imaging systems.

But the risk of collateral damage to civilians is immense, not in the least because the Mumbai Police personnel do not have a firing range on which they can be trained in the use of the M107 SAR.

Given that Mumbai will soon have a dedicated NSG unit at Kalina on call for situations where the weapon might be needed, the rationale behind the purchase is all the more mystifying.

No police force in the world uses the M107 SAR in counter-terrorism jobs, where civilians may be at risk. New York’s police Special Weapons and Tactics team uses the SAR to blow apart vehicle engines in high-speed chases as a last resort.

The Jammu and Kashmir Police, India’s most experienced counter-terrorism force, use nothing more powerful than the Soviet-designed 7.62 millimetre sniper rifles.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 11:02

The SF guys seemed to be used as lead scouts/trackers in the flushing out operations. Explains the recent high casualties since they will be the first to come in contact with the terrorists lying in ambush.

sum, 8+2 = 10....who is the 11th SF soldier to die??

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Apr 2009 11:37

I wonder how the Mumbai police actually ended up with the decission that they required a .50 cal sniper rifle...

If this thing is indeed used in a hostage situation or something similar I can only imagine the so called collateral damage

Its not as if Mumbai police will be tasked with taking down helicopters or vehicles

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 08 Apr 2009 12:01

This weapon, earlier known as the M82, is the most powerful small arm in the world; anything larger counts as a canon. Its 50-calibre shells can punch through Level 8 ballistic glass, the strongest available, and puncture armoured vehicles—this, at ranges upwards of 2.5 kilometres .

Whom are they trying to shoot??? looks like they DONT want to train for CQB/CQC.

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 08 Apr 2009 12:05

Taliban elements also entered through the Gurez(?Suarez) region in J&K.

Ray Saab, how is Gurez border region different from others along the LoC?

Lot of pigs are getting in through there.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Apr 2009 12:14

IIRC, its Gurez sector...

sum, 8+2 = 10....who is the 11th SF soldier to die??

Sorry, my bad....i thought 9+2.

Still, 10 is also a big number to loose.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 08 Apr 2009 17:00

andyB wrote:I wonder how the Mumbai police actually ended up with the decission that they required a .50 cal sniper rifle...

... Its not as if Mumbai police will be tasked with taking down helicopters or vehicles

pgbhat wrote:Whom are they trying to shoot??? looks like they DONT want to train for CQB/CQC.

How do you stop a speeding truck-bomb plunging towards an election rally? Or even a regular car-bomb? Sh!t, it need not be an election rally at all... Indians love to crowd around incidents, so any small incident can be "created" and an attack synchronized on the gathered crowds. A .50 HMG is the surest engine-block penetrator. Any large gathering in India would warrant a perimeter security armed with light anti-material weapons.

If this thing is indeed used in a hostage situation or something similar I can only imagine the so called collateral damage

Do you think there will be a hostage situation even after 11/26? More importantly, do you think the security forces should wait to see if a shooting incident develops into a hostage situation? The security calculus has changed completely. The terrs have escalated all response to immediate, time-minimizing response... minimizing collateral-damage is a secondary concern now.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Apr 2009 17:04

Pargha

Nothing is too late - al this happened only since 2005

1. Only those who were SF and were trained and qualified under the old SF rules - remain SF - (old probation was 5 odd months with 70 plus percent rejection - new one is 3 months )

2. Para is free to raise more battalions if it feels it needs them

How do you expect SF men who went through the grind of the old routine to respect Para men who have done a much shorter course?? In fact they don't.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 08 Apr 2009 17:54

Ajay K wrote:Taliban elements also entered through the Gurez(?Suarez) region in J&K.

Ray Saab, how is Gurez border region different from others along the LoC?

Lot of pigs are getting in through there.

Ajay K saar,
Taliban in that area is a misnomer. Afghans, Uzbeks, Tajiks and others have been entering the Kashmir valley for aeons. It's not like these mercenaries will suddenly be card carrying Taliban members.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 08 Apr 2009 18:12

You should hear the stories about Gen Bharadwaj when he was commmanding the Brigade

Reg MP-- Not many people know that he had set up the Mumbai Police commandos.The government then started using them like chapraasis.

MP had made a woman constable shoot at a target while he was standing next to the target.This was to assuage her that he believed in her shooting skills.

He is hard of hearing now as he has heard too many bullets and explosions,but yes he can still outshoot more people anywhere.

SF Dilution is going to cause problems.
Apropos the 1 Para and 9 Para losses in the valley-the ratios are too high for a SF unit.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Apr 2009 18:54

MP also was the one who got hit on the shoulder in BlueStar

There is another person from SG who is known for his brilliance - his name is there in a few links from the last few days

.

MP,PCB all are gem of men

Also SG and NSG have always been at loggerheads even though the units rotate \share men.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Apr 2009 18:59

Taliban elements also entered through the Gurez(?Suarez) region in J&K.

Ray Saab, how is Gurez border region different from others along the LoC?

Gurez is a bowl.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 08 Apr 2009 22:27

Raja Bose wrote:
ssmitra wrote: Isn't that exactly the problem with all the para military units as well.
BSF CRPF etc..., instead of increasing training and equipment they are just raising more and more battalions.
BSF and CRPF are a slightly different case since they are essentially line units and will be to a certain extent manpower intensive. The SF are not and cannot be designed to be manpower intensive....in fact their very role and rationale is based on small teams and as force multipliers where smaller more highly trained/equipped groups can achieve larger results.

I know this is not the right forum for this so we can take it to the COIN thread but my argument is that the end point is effectiveness...."line units being manpower intensive" is essentially the attrition based mentality which recently was pointed out to be the main difference between Indian SF units and their western counterparts (I am sure you remember that article posted here by either you or surya).

Essentially that mentality gets passed on to the specialized forces (NSG-SRG, BSF-commando units, etc..)
My point being ultimately it has to be a grounds up mentality where "attrition warfare" is not an acceptable solution.
Ray Sir please tell us your thoughts. Do you think that using extensive manpower has become a norm in the Indian armed forces ( both military and non military)
If I am not mistaken I think the Garud's are the only ones keeping their force levels constant and focused more on training and ability as a "force multiplier"

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Apr 2009 22:39

seems like there is insufficient differentiation in people's minds about the different types of SF roles and who should be playing them...

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 08 Apr 2009 22:43

sum wrote:

M4 Colt 5.56 Carbine

The Mumbai Police planners have chosen this assault weapon, which had been in service with militaries and special forces around the worldjust as it is being phased out.

During the Vietnam War, the United States troops discovered the limitations of North Atlantic Treaty Organisation-standard 7.62 x 51 millimetre rifles and in response to their needs, Colt designed the now-classic M16 rifle.

For special forces’ use in urban counter-terrorism contexts—situations where accuracy can be sacrificed for ease of use in confined spaces—the M16’s designers produced a variant with a short barrel and folding stock – the M4 carbine.

Despite its distinguished pedigree, the M4 suffers from several problems inherent to the gas-optimised system that powers its firing mechanism: among them, jamming and heavy component wear and tear.

Given that the M4 will serve the Mumbai Police for three decades and more, the choice of technology is debatable. Even as the police prepare to take delivery of the Carbine, some of its users are switching to more modern systems. The United States’ Marines have chosen the Fabrique Nationale Herstal Special Forces Compact Assault Rifle, while the crack Delta Force has picked the Heckler and Koch M4.

Sub-compact version

In service with crack forces such as the Special Protection Group (SPG) and National Security Guards, the Brügger & Thomet MP9 is a sub-compact version of the classic MP5 A4 and MP5 A3 machine-pistols.

Designed to be concealed inside the clothes of close-protection guards assigned to VIPs, the MP9 has a retractable stock and the magazine is fitted inside the grip. Like other weapons of this kind, it trades accuracy for size.

The Mumbai Police planners are thought to have ordered over 200 MP9 units—a surprise number, given that responsibility for protecting the State’s VIPs lies with a special unit of the Maharashtra Police. Moreover, it has ordered none of the more accurate MP5 series.

Just my 2 paisa overall there seems to be a pretty good choice's for a police force:
Unlike what Mr Swami has to say AFAIK all the jamming glitches and wear and tear issue for the M16 have been long solved with the M16A2. The M4 carbine is considered to be fairly reliable and accurate. The shortened barrell however commands the lower bullet velocities, and this significantly decreased the effective range of the 5.56mm bullet which is what I would want if this was in th hands of the police rather than a AK bullet in a urban close quartered place like mumbai. Second, the M4 barrel and the forend overheats this would force them to keep it in single shot mode rather than firing off to glee. This force one doesn't need a special forces weapon where a small number of operatives are usually fighting against a much larger force. here its the opposite so the M4 would be a good choice... lots of mods, bullets and support available.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 22:48

Kapil wrote:
MP had made a woman constable shoot at a target while he was standing next to the target.This was to assuage her that he believed in her shooting skills.

Kaps, if you recall this was a part of NSG's training too where the a trainee had to shoot at a target with his buddy standing beside it (that too at the end of the obstacle course)...just to drill down the skill that even after an exhausting ordeal their hand is steady and they can go for one-shot-one-kill. Now I have no idea if they still do something of that sort.

MP was and is a visionary but what sets him apart is that he is never happy with current capabilities and is constantly hungering for reaching the next higher level. This is an attitude which it seems (according to his observations) the current NSG brass has forgotten.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 22:52

Surya wrote:MP also was the one who got hit on the shoulder in BlueStar

Wasn't he the bodyguard of Zail Singh when he got hit by one of the few terrorists holding out?

I also recall (might be wrong) that some of these terrorists hiding in a cellar had also kidnapped an IA doctor and tortured him brutally (limbs off etc.) before killing him, during this time.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 08 Apr 2009 22:54

This weapon, earlier known as the M82, is the most powerful small arm in the world; anything larger counts as a canon. Its 50-calibre shells can punch through Level 8 ballistic glass, the strongest available, and puncture armoured vehicles—this, at ranges upwards of 2.5 kilometres

The question does come up as to who makes the decisions to purchase and on what basis. Why is it that the 'wrong' choice is made and we end up spending money on something that seems obviously unsuited for our purpose? Is it just the media reporting this or are there facts supporting what the report says. Could some small arms gurus please educate us further on this.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 23:03

ssmitra,

Yes the security in numbers philosophy gets passed on to SF units too. But the cause of such a thing happening is due to the fact that top brass and politicians have little or no idea where SF can be employed fruitfully and how to utilize them. In the minds of the bigwigs they are simply elite infantry, to be employed in numbers....this attitude has to change. Every military goes through this phase but it remains to be seen if the IA is able to get out of this phase. It is not just something the IA can do independently but has to be backed with political will and spine (something which is utterly missing right now).

Line units in infantry will have to be manpower intensive in COIN despite advances in equipment and technology.....just look at US! Recent article (1-2 days back) in Time even had a feature on how the suicide rates of US Army recruiters are 3x higher than normal suicide rates in military. Once you get down from the air into the ground, you need boots on the ground. No way around it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Apr 2009 23:32

Raja

MP was escorting Zail when that happened.

The SG \SF started this shooting target next to buddy\instructor.

All goes back to the men who were initially involved with SG.

satya · Post by **satya** » 09 Apr 2009 02:41

Read somewhere how SF troops were used as reg. infantry sort of better equipped during Kargil War , NSG shortcomings explain the mindset of ''SF= elite/better equipped infantry troops '' .Regarding lack of operational freedom among NSG operational chiefs in Mumbai attack , i think it was more of IPS mindset of its top brass something regular SSPs & DIG range usually do in normal police bandobast in times of strikes/ vip visit / demonstrations etc by being at site & issuing orders with juniors running on those orders .

More i read about SG , more i believe this may well be the only true SF force in India IMVHO.