Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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rkirankr
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkirankr » 10 Jul 2009 11:51

RayC wrote:It is like JJ Singh's order that on Friday, the whole IA will wear the combat dress so that we do not forget our combat capabilities! What a gas!


Are you serious sir :shock: Was there really an order like that or it is just a far fetched funny example

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 10 Jul 2009 11:52

Nope..it is true.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sachin » 10 Jul 2009 12:10

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Railways announce raising commando battalions

Railways did have a "Railway Protection Special Force" (RPSF) which was more equipped and trained for some emergencies. They also got deployed in J&K as part of election duties etc. But the news I got is that Railways thought of disbanding the RPSF and the personnel would move back to the regular RPF units. RPSF had a special shoulder insignia and used to wear sloutch hats instead of the dark blue beret caps.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby RayC » 10 Jul 2009 12:25

rkirankr wrote:
RayC wrote:It is like JJ Singh's order that on Friday, the whole IA will wear the combat dress so that we do not forget our combat capabilities! What a gas!


Are you serious sir :shock: Was there really an order like that or it is just a far fetched funny example



It is true.

Check the combat dress. The 'Indian Army' is stamped at the most inappropriate places! ;) But then that is the tailor fault!

Today, even a chowkidar wears camouflage dress and civil vehicles are OG. This is not allowed by MV Act as also by govt instructions to differeniate the army from others.

Everyone is a 'jawan' today and all atttocities are heaped on the 'jawan' and the 'security forces'. None is the wise who has done it.

Something like 'one community massacred another community'!

Every organisation wants to have a 'commando' force. Whartever for? Can't they make their current organisation for protection more efficient and accountable? By adding the word 'commando' does not make someone a Superman or Batman or even Spiderman!

India is too full of gimmicks. Am Admni, Garibi Hatao, India Shining etc. All humbug! We are where were are, cycling at the same spot!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 10 Jul 2009 12:55

RayC wrote:It is like JJ Singh's order that on Friday, the whole IA will wear the combat dress so that we do not forget our combat capabilities! What a gas!

I too was incredulous at first but I have been told by an army officer that there is some logic to this decision. Many officers go through successive peace postings, and thus do not have to wear combat dress for a really long time. What if there is a sudden situation and the combat dress is needed? It is very much possible that the dress would not fit. By making combat dress compulsory on Fridays, it is ensured that everyone has a combat dress that fits them.
I know it sounds very silly, but one has to admit that it is a very practical decision.
Last edited by Gaur on 10 Jul 2009 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby RayC » 10 Jul 2009 13:05

Parijat Gaur wrote:
RayC wrote:It is like JJ Singh's order that on Friday, the whole IA will wear the combat dress so that we do not forget our combat capabilities! What a gas!

I too was incredulous at first but I have been told by an army officer that there is some logic to this decision. Many officers go through successive peace postings, and does do not have to wear combat dress for a really long time. What if there is a sudden situation and the combat dress is needed? It is very much possible that the dress would not fit. By making combat dress compulsory on Fridays, it is ensured that everyone has a combat dress that fits them.
I know it sounds very silly, but one has to admit that it is a very practical decision.


I am sure you will agree that if people have 'uncles' to ensure successive peace postings, then that is an issue that should be addressed and not whether their combat dress fits them or not.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkirankr » 10 Jul 2009 15:51

[quote
I am sure you will agree that if people have 'uncles' to ensure successive peace postings, then that is an issue that should be addressed and not whether their combat dress fits them or not.[/quote]
:wink: Nice reply sirjee. This order may reduce the sanctity one has for dress/uniform. It will be like private companies , where people wear ill fitting T-shirts, jeans just because friday is supposed to be more informal. Many look like as if tons of cotton has been stuffed in a small pillow cover

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 10 Jul 2009 22:28

RayC wrote:I am sure you will agree that if people have 'uncles' to ensure successive peace postings, then that is an issue that should be addressed and not whether their combat dress fits them or not.

Sadly, this is an issue which IMHO cannot be solved. Uncles have been and always will be there. One can only gather some solace from the fact that, unlike some other departments, posting in IA is at least not regulated by bribery. Officers sitting in posting department are bound to be asked for favors by their close friends. How do you propose to eliminate this problem. IMHO it is practically impossible to do so.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Vinito » 13 Jul 2009 13:44

Hi guys...had a couple of questions pertaining to equipping the special forces...appreciate if someone could clear my doubts

1) With regards to bulletproof vests, I have seen that the Indian special forces always tend to cover just the front and back portion...what about the sides? The western & even Russian special forces use side protection as well. Also their level of protection seems to be much thicker with a base titanium plate followed by 40-50 layers of kevlar. Whats the composition of the vests being used by our SF?

2) Most SF forces use a combination of weapons for anti-terrorist operations which change as per the situation. For example. in a building they use M4/MP5/Shotguns/shields alongwith sniper support. During the Mumbai attacks I happened to see mainly Mp5's and snipers with SIG rifles(is this rifle lethal enough).Do we not use shotguns to clear an area with a burst of 0.25 calibre pellets?

3) With regards to machine guns do we still use the venerable bren gun or have we upgraded to the minimi,pkt/pkm or negev version?

Appreciate the help guys...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby koti » 13 Jul 2009 23:46

I have never seen any shotgun with our SF, CI units or with NSG. Anyone have any info about some kind of a shotgun in service with IA or NSG?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby darshhan » 14 Jul 2009 00:11

Shotguns are used extensively by lot of special forces units for breaching especially in CQB.My question what do Indian special forces units use for breaching ?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Vinito » 14 Jul 2009 01:21

darshhan wrote:Shotguns are used extensively by lot of special forces units for breaching especially in CQB.My question what do Indian special forces units use for breaching ?


do you think we may use explosives for blowing open doors? Sounds weird but I do recollect that during the Mumbai siege one NSG commando was injured in this kind of an action.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 14 Jul 2009 01:59

NSG are known to use halligan bars for mech. breaching and low-intensity charges (colloq. called crackers) incld. frame charges for explosive breaching. Explosive breaching can cause injuries to the assault party and may not work 100% if entry point is heavily barricaded (happened in Taj).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 14 Jul 2009 02:05

SHort answer - we do have shotguns.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 19 Jul 2009 18:11

Image

Cant we get these guys less bulkier body armour. ? There job is bloody hard as it is.

NSG are known to use halligan bars for mech. breaching and low-intensity charges (colloq. called crackers) incld. frame charges for explosive breaching. Explosive breaching can cause injuries to the assault party and may not work 100% if entry point is heavily barricaded (happened in Taj).


And NSG officer told me that ShotGuns are used for breaching but not too much in Urban enviorments. They work well in the west where housing is usually wooden walls and flimsy doors. in India we have brick and heavy Doors shotgun maynot be enough for a breach. The NSG practices with a Breaching team that blows off the hinges of the door at the same time. In India people tend to use multiple locks on doors and not to forget Chains so they prefer the hinges.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby brar » 19 Jul 2009 20:08

it seems those are new BPs as I have never seen those BPs worn by NSG before

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 20 Jul 2009 06:04

Infantry, special forces to get new-generation carbines and rifles
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS-India-Infantry-special-forces-to-get-new-generation-carbines-and-rifles/articleshow/4795865.cms

The picture in the article is ofcourse a pak example of DDM-itis. :roll:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby SanjibGhosh » 30 Jul 2009 21:02

http://www.salute.co.in/180409/feat_Ban ... 20Dum.html

A tribute to major Mohit Sharma and his men of Special Forces (para 1) who led down their life in Kupwara on 21 March 2009. I new Major Mohit Sharma as a gallantry award winner brave heart and one of the finest officer in Indian army. I new him as his brother is my friend and colleague and working for same organization over nine years.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 30 Jul 2009 21:52

Thanks Sanjib

Really depressing to lose such good men

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby KiranM » 31 Jul 2009 21:02

SanjibGhosh wrote:http://www.salute.co.in/180409/feat_Bande%20Mein%20Tha%20Dum.html

A tribute to major Mohit Sharma and his men of Special Forces (para 1) who led down their life in Kupwara on 21 March 2009. I new Major Mohit Sharma as a gallantry award winner brave heart and one of the finest officer in Indian army. I new him as his brother is my friend and colleague and working for same organization over nine years.


Apologies if already posted. Thought a read on the incident will do some good.
http://news4u.co.in/?p=15235

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Nikhil T » 07 Aug 2009 07:31

Delhi Police's SWAT??
Specialised units like Quick Reaction Teams, Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) and Vajra (of the Rapid Action force) are being deployed, an official said.


DDF or is it true?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby dinesha » 07 Aug 2009 09:31

earlier Delhi police has announced the intent to train and deploy SWAT like commandos for CW games..

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby VikB » 07 Aug 2009 11:01

I could not find any other place to post this.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/28/sniper_feature/

"Snipers - Cowardly assassins or surgical soldiers"

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Shameek » 08 Aug 2009 09:06

VikB wrote:I could not find any other place to post this.


The International Military Thread might be a better place.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby VikB » 10 Aug 2009 10:30

^^^^True but I think there will be more jingos here for this type of news :)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Drevin » 10 Aug 2009 10:48

rkhanna wrote:Cant we get these guys less bulkier body armour. ? There job is bloody hard as it is.


I am shocked they don't use head protection. Man every soldier in the US Army gets protective head gear. And the elite NSG (far smaller than any army) doesn't use bulletproof helmets as standard gear :shock: :?:

I mean these guys are equivalent to marines ..... frontline dudes. That,s a serious lack of armor for the vital head and face areas.

Infact rkhannaji I would say they are heavily under-protected :lol: not the opposite.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 10 Aug 2009 23:13

Drevin wrote:
rkhanna wrote:Cant we get these guys less bulkier body armour. ? There job is bloody hard as it is.


I am shocked they don't use head protection. Man every soldier in the US Army gets protective head gear. And the elite NSG (far smaller than any army) doesn't use bulletproof helmets as standard gear :shock: :?:

These are pics from some publicity parade. There are now numerous pictures of NSG in action courtesy 26/11, you can see the helmets in use there. However, they do need protection from splinters (1 NSG officer lost one eye due to a splinter injury).

I mean these guys are equivalent to marines ..... frontline dudes. That,s a serious lack of armor for the vital head and face areas.

Infact rkhannaji I would say they are heavily under-protected :lol: not the opposite.


There is no armour for the face - except some splinter protection (GSG9 can be seen with them commonly). Marines are essentially line units (despite various claims of eliteness) in tasking, size and selection standards. NSG is a paramilitary special forces unit - different standards, different sizes, different tasking.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Aug 2009 02:01

Actually there are Helmet Visors that offer Class III Protection against 9mm Rounds. Not just splinters.. And IMO the Bulky body armour is going to slow the Operators down. CT/HRT requires speed and the abilily to overcome obsticals usually found in an Urban Envoirment. How they going to fit through a small window in those things. Or jump over walls fast enough?

Btw there are also Ballistic Face Masks available now.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/security2020_2064_4607766
Tested against NIJ IIIA level threats. 400 Dollars :)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 11 Aug 2009 05:22

^^^ Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. But you are right....there is no way an operator is going to put those on esp. if they have a respirator or NVG hanging off their face. :mrgreen:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Drevin » 11 Aug 2009 08:51

US Army's ACH:Advanced Combat Helmet - Successor to the older PASGT

The Advanced Combat Helmet, or ACH, has replaced the old Kevlar helmet. The ACH is 3.5 lbs lighter then the old model and is cushioned on the inside, which sits more comfortably on a Soldiers head. It also has a different suspension system inside which allows a Soldier to fight more effectively when wearing body armor. The ACH is a helmet system that provides ballistic and impact protection. This system is compatible with the current night vision devices (NVG's), communications packages, and nuclear, biological, and chemical (NBC) defense equipment and body armor. The ACH provides ballistic protection within the full spectrum of operational environments


C120 Mask:level IIIA ballistic protection


Face Protection for the PASGT helmet also was used by USMC SESAMS program.
CM120 mask for the PASGT also exists

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 11 Aug 2009 08:56

CT units do use face visors and a handheld transparent shield. military units do not. NSG can get such eqpt - will reduce wounds and fatalities in CQB.

there are pics of GIGN CT unit.

we should just go out and buy the best available out there to equip a troop
of 6 x 100 people atleast - one set for each new CT center being built up in the
metros.

screw tendering and RFP - just send some veteran NSG and army-SF/marcos officers and let them test & select what they know works.

funds should bypass the normal process and come from consolidated fund of india used to finance N-program for example.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Drevin » 11 Aug 2009 09:07

Yes agree with you. Will save NSG lives when up against a AK47 equipped enemy. Imagine complete 9mm ballistic protection. Doesnot impede situational awareness at alll.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 11 Aug 2009 23:44

Singha wrote:CT units do use face visors and a handheld transparent shield. military units do not. NSG can get such eqpt - will reduce wounds and fatalities in CQB.

there are pics of GIGN CT unit.

screw tendering and RFP - just send some veteran NSG and army-SF/marcos officers and let them test & select what they know works.

funds should bypass the normal process and come from consolidated fund of india used to finance N-program for example.


GSG9 first started the practice - they had those yellowish tint talc(?) visors. I have never seen GIGN pics with those ballastic protection visors - only with full face covered respirators and goggles. Any links, would be interesting to see. At the very least NSG needs those goggles given the eye injuries they suffered in 26/11 and I think in Akshardham ops too.

For these small units, they should really remove all this RFP/Tendering business - create a fund and give them a free hand to purchase what and when they need it, this is where the US SF score. All others (including super-duper SAS) have babudom sitting on their heads.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Shameek » 12 Aug 2009 00:15

Are you guys talking about these visors?


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 12 Aug 2009 00:28

The Sad part is that we dont even need to buy Phoren maal. We have companies in India that make bulletproof Visors/Helmets/Shields,etc

Image

We are providing a wide range of bullet proof visor, military headwear, helmet visor, visor helmets, helmet with visor, fire helmet visor, face shield helmets, bullet proof glass, visor with bullet-proof glass, bulletproof visor helmet.

Protection Level: Upto NIJ Level IIIA (For 9mm and 0.44 magnum).
Shatter proof.
High Impact Resistance Light weight Polycarbonate.
Laminate Offering Transparent view.
3- Point Positive Stay System (PSS).
Thickness of PC 3mm, 4mm, 6mm, 8mm, 12mm, 16mm & 22 mm depending on customer requirements.


http://www.anjani.com/ballistic/products-bpm-bpv.asp?links=bpm1c&bpm

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby nachiket » 12 Aug 2009 00:47

rkhanna wrote:The Sad part is that we dont even need to buy Phoren maal. We have companies in India that make bulletproof Visors/Helmets/Shields,etc


Would those shields be tactical shields like this

Image

Never seen NSG with this even in 26/11 pics. To a layman atleast it appears that they could have been mighty useful in the corridors of the Taj Hotel.

EDIT: Ok. just visited their website. they do seem to manufacture tactical shields as well.

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 12 Aug 2009 00:49

Yes same type of Tactical Shields. There are a number of companies in India now offering similar products.

EDIT: Moreover these are Indian Co's.. If the Armed Forces dont like the design/features they can work with the companies to come up with a more suitable product and probably half the cost of importing it.
Last edited by rkhanna on 12 Aug 2009 00:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 12 Aug 2009 00:50

the force chiefs and senior commanders already have the freedom to authorize small purchases without MOD sanction(the recent golf-cart scandal was from such a purchase)

IMHO it is apathy from the commanders than anything else.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Shameek » 12 Aug 2009 01:32

Went through the Anjani site in detail. They are also working with DRDO. There is no reason (Other than apathy/babudom) why we could not get most of our protection equipment from such firms. As someone pointed out, its even better that they are Indian firms. Takes away a lot of issues that arise with foreign vendors.

Edit: Unfortunately it is only after events like 26/11 that issues like spurious quality BPJs for Mumbai police, etc. come out.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 12 Aug 2009 02:00

Rahul M wrote:
IMHO it is apathy from the commanders than anything else.


If in a elite force, even the commanders are apathetic then only God can help them and us. I wonder if this is the police influence of the NSG top brass. :roll:

Those yellow visors posted by shameekg look similar to the GSG9 ones - do they offer protection against 9mm rounds (if so, at what distance)?


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