Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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ruprag
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ruprag » 27 Nov 2009 22:31

I seen above the discussion on guns being used...

can anyone throw light on the NBC equipment carried by NSG/Force 1 or any other Special Force Unit and special training that they have , is their any special training that local police units get to handle them ?....I think considering the fact that Terrorists always want to be one up on the Security forces..

A Sarin/Nerve gas attach like the attack in Tokyo Subway , at a busy station like CST , would once again throw in the same confusion and much the same mishandling like 26/11 i would assume...as the first responder as always would be the local police unit or Railway police... and to add ...unlike a bullet...gas can spread ...

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_ ... kyo_subway)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 27 Nov 2009 23:04

Gaur wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:I have photograph of the NSG practising with Tavors.

Can you please post them or provide a link?

There you go

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 28 Nov 2009 00:02

Thanks.
But is it certain that they are NSG? Is it because they are wearing black?
If it so, then even Para may wear them. I had recently seen a pic of an IA soldier in black camo.
But it will not be totally surprising if they are NSG. In the pics of NSG Museum available on the net, one can not only see tavors but all kind of other rifles including steyr-aug!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sanjay » 28 Nov 2009 00:44

Rupag - the NSG used Finnish respirators until recently when it awared an initial order for 800 Kareta Nova respirators. Can't post the source of this by name but it was from the manufacturer's Indian partner.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Nov 2009 01:04

Dmurphy wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:I have photograph of the NSG practising with Tavors.


There you go

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr28 ... y/nat1.jpg


Are you sure those are NSG? - iirc they were id'ed as SFF on B-R many moons ago.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Nov 2009 01:05

Dmurphy wrote:
Singha wrote:take a look....a "rifle" that is 180cm long, a barrel the thickness of a man's fore arm...thats some serious meat there. I guess one guy would carry the barrel and another the rest out in the field.
Isn't that an Anti Material Rifle rather than a sniper rifle?


Well...human head is a type of "material" :wink:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Nov 2009 01:12

ssmitra wrote:Unfortunately it seems no matter how many times it is written here or anywhere, our brave jawans in the SF (army or paramilitary) DO NOT HAVE ACCESS to a large number of weapons...
They until very recently were either given the AK-47, Vz's and more recently the tavor.
Even the NSG don't have a whole lot of choice. its either the MP5 or AK-47 (sniper rifles apart).


ssmitra, The problem is not the choice of weapons - that they have a-plenty there. The problem is the delays in acquisition of other vital equipment such as eavesdropping equipment, better comm. equipment, medical equipment etc. (mainly due to some slob baboo in MoD asking why do you need this or that). It would go a long way to help units like NSG/SFF if they were given more freedom in managing their own finances and acquisitions without running to the MoD chai-biskoot wallah for approving every little piece of equipment. The requisitions are all there so its not like the NSG jawan is sitting on his hands not knowing what is out there. They know all that and even order what they want - the problem is the file containing that "order" gathers dust while some 2-bit baboo figures out his cut and how to save 5 paisa here and there.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Nov 2009 02:02

a former MARCO once told me that they practice with a very wide range of firearms in order to be proficient with whatever they find on operations and can make use of

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Nov 2009 05:58

MARCOS usually do much better in terms of equipment procurement. It is the MHA units which suffer.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2009 06:31

to add to the list of police units:
assam police - black panthers - armed with ak47/56, black bandanna, BPJs and dressed in all-black. they used to wrap the bandanna around their faces too until women complained it made them look like sinister criminals so now that is not done.

these may be:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01h ... m/610x.jpg

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby dinakar » 28 Nov 2009 08:42

I was really happy to see Force one team of Mumbai police and their modernisation programme... But Praveen Swami's article about the modernisation programme made a big question about the programme in its current form.. He also states that the new equipments are inappropriate and in some cases useless... Some excerpts of the article..

Armed with a spanking-new assault rifle, constable Sanjay Kamble stood outside the Taj Mahal hotel this afternoon — the face of a force that is seeking to transform itself into a truly modern force capable cutting-edge crisis management, intelligence-gathering and modern investigation.

Working upwards of fourteen hours a day — not counting the typically three hours spent commuting — constable Kamble earns a basic pay of Rs. 5,200 a month. Sanitation workers employed by the Brihan Mumbai Municipal Corporation are paid less — Rs. 4,440 a month — but end up taking home similar wages, because of overtime. Indeed, until the Sixth Pay Commission recently upgraded the categorisation of police work as semi-skilled from skilled, sanitation workers actually made more money. Little has been done to upgrade the police’s living standards and training.
For the most part, Mumbai’s police modernisation programme has consisted of making purchases of equipment that at first glance appears impressive — but, on closer scrutiny, amounts to little more than putting lipstick on a pig.[/b] If hiring requirements, salaries and training are not thoroughly reviewed the ongoing police modernisation will yield limited gains.

In fact, much of the new equipment is inappropriate — and in some cases, useless.

The M4 Colt 5.56 Carbine, first designed for urban combat by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, was picked as the standard-issue weapon for Mumbai’s counter-terrorism teams. The weapon is in the process of being phased out by its core users. The United States’ Marines have chosen the Fabrique Nationale Herstal Special Forces Compact Assault Rifle, while the crack Delta Force has picked the Heckler and Koch M4. The new weapons have overcome problems integral to the M4 and other carbines powered by gas-optimised systems — among them, jamming and heavy component wear and tear.

Mumbai Police planners also ordered a large number of the Brügger & Thomet MP5A4 machine pistol, along with its sub-compact cousin, the MP9. No one in office has an explanation for just why the MP9 was ordered. The weapon, which features a retractable stock and a magazine fitted inside the grip, is designed for environments where weapons cannot be displayed — for example, functions where important officials are making speeches. Since VIP protection is not among the duties of the Mumbai Police, the order has mystified many experts.

The MP5A4, by contrast, is a robust and well-established weapon. But the 9-millimetre ammunition system it uses is known to be less than optimal at generating neurologic shock — the biological phenomenon that kills or incapacitates targets. Many crack forces, therefore, are slowly switching to newer ammunition systems. The Special Protection Group, for example, now uses the 5.27 x 8 millimetre Fabrique Nationale Herstal P90. Mumbai planners, however, never even investigated alternate systems.


Just three men — former Police Commissioner Hasan Gaffur, Additional Commissioner of Police Vinay Khargaonkar and Joint Commissioner of Police Sanjay Barwe — were given the responsibility of selecting these weapons. None had any experience in either special weapons technologies or counter-terrorism tactics. Instead, representatives of the Hong Kong-based firm which made the sale acted as advisers and also provided short-term training in their use. No counsel was solicited from Mumbai Police officials actually involved in setting up new élite units.

Maharashtra now has a state-of-the-art intelligence academy, intended to revive the police’s long-decaying intelligence capabilities. But the State authorities haven’t yet assigned an officer to run the institution.


Gurus, whether the equipments are really inappropriate as Praveen swami says.... Please enlighten me...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 28 Nov 2009 08:50

The Chennai cops are doing more practical stuff

their commandos are going through a sign language course to (40 day course)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sanjay » 28 Nov 2009 17:42

Praveen Swami makes some very good points on training and on treatment. However, with respect to the weapons, I think he is wrong. The M4 won't be phased out for years and is an adequate weapon for the police. The MP-9 may have been chosen for the following reason:

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg63-e.htm

"Compared to full-size submachine guns, MP9 trades effective range for more compact size and lighter weight, and ability to be fired single-handedly when the operator has his second hand occupied such when holding a ballistic shield."

As far as the AMR selection goes, there are times when it could be quite useful. He hasn't complained about 51mm mortars, LMGs and grenades being in the arsenal of the SRPF !

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Move Discussion to Appropriate Threads

Postby ParGha » 28 Nov 2009 18:36

Gentlemen,

May I ask that you continue discussions on NSG and all other police topics to appropriate threads: "BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Organizations", and "CT and COIN Ops..."?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 28 Nov 2009 19:25

umm, NSG and other HR/QRT does fall within the purview of this thread. this thread isn't limited to military SF.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby kaangeya » 28 Nov 2009 22:33

OFB does make the Vidhwansak right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidhwansak But this seems more of a counter-sniper and anti-materiel weapon, pretty heavy at ~25 kg.

As for TN police, it is undoubtedly way ahead of the curve on SF - in training, weapons, systems, and tactics. Excellent intelligence, a consistent political backing also make the difference. The TN Polce recently appointed its 1st woman DGP- Letika Saran, who first came to prominence during the MGR days and then was reputedly backed by the Jaya regime. It doesn't make any difference it seems, thatshe continues to rise regardless with the dmk in charge. The TN police has been cross-training with the CRPF for >20 years now. Unlike many state police forces, the TN police SF places a high emphasis on marksmanship, and have worked with Army instructors for a long time. While I wish the Mah.Police all the best, it's going to be a long haul for them.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 28 Nov 2009 22:46

Per a news report SRG of the NSG will be now trained for duties that were earlier reserved for SAG, specifically heliborne operations.

Amongs all the regional NSG centres which have come up I wish they had also put up a centre in Srinagar and North East.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 28 Nov 2009 22:50

Aditya G wrote:Per a news report SRG of the NSG will be now trained for duties that were earlier reserved for SAG, specifically heliborne operations.

Amongs all the regional NSG centres which have come up I wish they had also put up a centre in Srinagar and North East.


If Bangalore did not receive a NSG hub due to presence of Parachute Regimental Center (PRC) and posting of 2 PARA(SF), it is highly unlikely that NE and Srinagar will receive any NSG hubs.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ParGha » 29 Nov 2009 00:04

Rahul M wrote:umm, NSG and other HR/QRT does fall within the purview of this thread. this thread isn't limited to military SF.

Okay, it is your call.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ssmitra » 29 Nov 2009 03:50

kaangeya wrote:OFB does make the Vidhwansak right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidhwansak But this seems more of a counter-sniper and anti-materiel weapon, pretty heavy at ~25 kg.

As for TN police, it is undoubtedly way ahead of the curve on SF - in training, weapons, systems, and tactics. Excellent intelligence, a consistent political backing also make the difference. The TN Polce recently appointed its 1st woman DGP- Letika Saran, who first came to prominence during the MGR days and then was reputedly backed by the Jaya regime. It doesn't make any difference it seems, thatshe continues to rise regardless with the dmk in charge. The TN police has been cross-training with the CRPF for >20 years now. Unlike many state police forces, the TN police SF places a high emphasis on marksmanship, and have worked with Army instructors for a long time. While I wish the Mah.Police all the best, it's going to be a long haul for them.


Anyone have any idea what the present state of the punjab commando police is. They are probably one of the oldest police commando battalions and at one time in bahadrugarh (their training center) had all instructors who were all ex-para. Their intelligence was considered good enough for even the army to use and had lookout as far as Canada and UK working against the khalistani's. I even remember once their was news about them being deployed in assam for hunting ULFA and training assam police.

These days I am not sure if they have kept up.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 29 Nov 2009 08:41

vidhwansk was rejected by army but is used by BSF. MOD report says something like "production continues for CPO's"

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 29 Nov 2009 08:50

Sanjay wrote:The MP-9 may have been chosen for the following reason:

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg63-e.htm

"Compared to full-size submachine guns, MP9 trades effective range for more compact size and lighter weight, and ability to be fired single-handedly when the operator has his second hand occupied such when holding a ballistic shield."


True. But FORCE ONE does not have Ballistic Shields nor has it ordered it.
Or am I wrong here?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 29 Nov 2009 08:54

Gaur wrote:True. But FORCE ONE does not have Ballistic Shields nor has it ordered it.
Or am I wrong here?
I knew this would come up. Look it need not be a ballistic shield all the time. It could be a rescued injured hostage or an injured colleague. It could also happen, that the commando is climbing up a pipe or a ladder, needs one hand to hold on to something so that he could fire the MP9 using the other hand.

JMT

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 29 Nov 2009 14:04

As for TN police, it is undoubtedly way ahead of the curve on SF - in training, weapons, systems, and tactics.

Have to agree on that..

Thats why even the Karnataka police had allowed the TNP to send in their "boys" to elimnate a dreaded terrorist in MSR Nagar, B'luru 6-7 years back.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Nov 2009 03:14

the MP9 seems like quite a useful and powerful weapon for the close security guys to carry around, no doubt netas would have wanted that

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 30 Nov 2009 12:12

Aditya G wrote:Per a news report SRG of the NSG will be now trained for duties that were earlier reserved for SAG, specifically heliborne operations.


Does that mean a withdrawal of SRG from body guard duties of most of the Z-category folks (barring a few) - I surely hope so. Plus training for heliborne ops will lead to those skills and their importance trickling down to the CPOs when the troopers return to their units after their NSG stint.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby A Sharma » 02 Jan 2010 23:52


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sanjay M » 03 Jan 2010 00:44

Here's an article on a cool pedal-powered submersible developed by a Russian company:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/n ... arket.html

I'm wondering if Indian MARCOs or other maritime special forces might benefit from this?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sachin » 03 Jan 2010 14:38

sum wrote:Thats why even the Karnataka police had allowed the TNP to send in their "boys" to elimnate a dreaded terrorist in MSR Nagar, B'luru 6-7 years back.

Bingo !! Dot on. TN State Police commandos would be rated the best in the Southern states. Smaller states like Kerala, send their men to the "Commando School" operated by the T.N Police. The incident which happened in Bangalore.

1. Imam Ali a wanted Jehadi of the Tamil Nadu police was hiding in Bengaluru for quite some time. By tracking the cell phones, Tamizh Naadu Kaaval knows the exact location of the Jehadi. They discuss this with their Bangalore counterparts, and honestly speaking Bangalore Police did not have the setup to storm the hide out. They how ever provided good information to the TN Police about the home. Two people (a man and a woman) went to the hide out of Imam Ali as people looking for a home (on rent), surveyed the home and came back.

2. TN Police brings in their commandos from Coimbatore (the rumour was that they did it by air-lifting). The hide out is attacked at 2AM in the morning, and Imam Ali and his accomplices were finished off. The current chap on the lime lights Shri. Thadiyantavida Nazeer was staying in the same house at that time. Nazir had stepped out of this place to fetch some snacks, and he escaped.

3. The then police commissioner Mr. Sangliana is seen posing with the policemen in the next day's news paper. The reports also had words like "police shoot dead two terrorists", while being ambiguous about which state's police actually did the job. Sangliana being the "show man", tried to get the maximum weight age out of the situation. The TN Police does the dirty job, while Mr. Commissioner Sangliana struts around as if he led the entire operation :roll: .

An overview of this incident

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 03 Jan 2010 17:40

Whine alert :!:

Had been to CST station today. Saw a few of the RPF commandos who have been stationed there since mid last year. They have still not been provided with BPJs or helmets. And they carry their INSAS strapped tightly to their back - which IMHO, disallows speedy deployment.

The good thing is, all these guys looked tall, fit and high on morale. Also kind of stood out in the crowd because of their all black uniforms and robust build.

(Mods, please delete the post if they deem it unsuitable for public viewing)

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Do Indian Special Forces operate behind enemy lines?

Postby Bravo » 12 Jan 2010 18:48

The common question that lurks in the minds of many people is that do our special forces operate behind enemy lines. Generally, IMO this is a closely guarded secret as that would make our neighbors unhappy. But in an interview with T.V. news channel Mr. P. Chidambaram unwillingly accepted the fact that the R. A. W. operatives and the elite SF do conduct covert operations behind enemy lines, that include sabotage to military installations, kidnapping and interrogation of civilians or army officials etc. But the real catch is, if this is being done for last few years at least, why haven’t we taken down the terrorist training camps behind LOC? Or it is also a closely guarded secret? I’d invite opinions, and true information about covert operations behind the borders on this matter.
I once got hold of information related to this matter. A senior army officer himself told this in a private family function that he was once posted in Rajasthan. The army has missile installations near the border. The missiles were to be taken out for some maintenance in the night when the army got a tip that there are small groups of enemy special operatives behind the border waiting to raid the Indian missile installations and destroy them. It was, as per that official, beyond the capacity of army to cross the border and neutralize these groups. So the Marcos’ were called in. Two Marcos personnel were sent to military base in Rajasthan. They discussed the whole scenario among themselves. Even this army official and others were kept out of it. Then one of them got ready while the other stayed at the base. They asked for 7-8 skilled soldiers and crossed the border in the night. By morning 0400 hrs they radioed the success of their covert mission and returned to the base. Then the Marcos personnel who returned from the operation reported to his fellow Marcos and gave him the details. The senior army officer who told this story was only given the news that the operation was a success and there were no casualties on Indian side where as the enemy sabotage groups were completely destroyed and now they can carry out their maintenance work. Then theses Marcos personnel flew back to their base.
If this really happened in Rajasthan, then there must be several occasions and places where army, and navy must be carrying out covert operations. If anybody knows such an incident, please do share with us.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby atreya » 12 Jan 2010 19:15

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... e=2&mode=1

Who are the "Guldar commandos of Uttarakhand"?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2010 19:46

Funny story…

“The army has missile installations near the border”
No it hasn’t. Army missile groups are NOT based in forward areas unless wartime or during operations. For example, 333rd Missile Group is based somewhere in Central Command. I don’t think any maintenance happens in forward areas. If a missile is unserviceable, it is replaced by another missile. Plus these units have security details.

“small groups of enemy special operatives behind the border waiting to raid the Indian missile installations and destroy them”
Do you realize any attack on strategic installations – like airfields or missiles – is equivalent to declaration of war?

“beyond the capacity of army to cross the border and neutralize these groups”
10th Para Commando specifically formed in late 60’s to operate across the desert. They did carry out operations in 1971. Hard to believe they have lost those skills.

“So the Marcos’ were called in”
While Marcos cross train with Paras across geographies, highly unlikely they’ll know the lay of the land just after a day’s recce, unlike local troops or 10 Para.

“they radioed the success of their covert mission”
And broadcast their position to every enemy signals officer around who did...nothing…

Don’t worry, uncles make up such stories to entertain kids.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby pmund » 12 Jan 2010 19:56

ekkjaktly my feeling :D a good bedtime story

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2010 20:12

“why haven’t we taken down the terrorist training camps behind LOC?”

This is a question every Indian asks.

Hot Pursuit option was assessed. Recce across borders still happens, whether via UAV's or personnel.

However it was soon realized that a terrorist training camp infrastructure is a few tents, trashy pulp, AK’s, RPG’s and UMG’s churned cheaply at POF, and obstacle courses dug using shovels or raised using poles, planks and ropes.

Plus the terrorists have the home ground advantage – unlimited reinforcements and material.

Bombing or attacking them marginally disrupts, but never stops the flow. A terrorist training camp can be wound up or set up in a day.

Using special forces and equipment against NON STRATEGIC objectives is wasteful. Returns aren’t proportionate.

Hence RR, CRPF and BSF troops take on insurgents, when they are divided into small teams while crossing into or operating in India, with limited supplies and support.

That is why Liberty ships were built – build them faster than the Germans could possibly sink them. That is why RR was raised. Infantry battalions leveraging Regimental Centers across the country to train men with better quality and in more quantity than the terror camps.

Special forces should be used with strategic objectives, like taking a strategic pass, ridgeline, bridge, beach-head, enemy supply lines, etc and form a pivot for success of our larger formations. Any use otherwise is wasteful. Officers marked for higher command are taught how to - and how not to - use special forces. Capturing Haji Pir, attempting to disrupt Indian airfields, attempting to capture Prabhakaran to paralyse the LTTE, etc., are such objectives

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Re: Do Indian Special Forces operate behind enemy lines?

Postby Riza Zaman » 12 Jan 2010 20:43

Bravo wrote:The army has missile installations near the border. No, it doesn't. The missiles were to be taken out for some maintenance in the night Missiles aren't maintained at FOBs. They're replaced.when the army got a tip that there are small groups of enemy special operatives behind the border waiting to raid the Indian missile installations and destroy them.I fail to see any co-relation between "maintenance" and a raid unless the missiles are some human heat seeking missiles (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

It was, as per that official, beyond the capacity of army to cross the border and neutralize these groups Not at all. As tsarkar mentioned, 10th Para used to train specifically for desert warfare. AFAIK, all Paras now cross-train for different terrain types.. So the Marcos’ were called in. Who called in the MARCOS? The Army? An intel agency? Two Marcos personnel were sent to military base in Rajasthan. The MARCOS don't operate in teams on 2.

They discussed the whole scenario among themselves. Even this army official and others were kept out of it. This is a bit ... retarded. The first thing you want to do is pull in fellow soldiers who have knowledge of the "lay of the land". Then one of them got ready while the other stayed at the base. Why would they want to split up? One of the offensive, the other on the defensive? Sorry, those are Hollywood types. Not to mention that the implies that the security detail at the "missile base" would already be on the alert based on the tip-off.

They asked for 7-8 skilled soldiers and crossed the border in the night. So the MARCOS would rather take 7-8 skilled soldiers who primary training is reg. Army / Gunnery (missiles) / Perimeter Security than one of their own? Doesn't make any sense. By morning 0400 hrs they radioed the success of their covert mission and returned to the base. So all this happened within a few hours - a day's time window? I have a hard time believing that the Army couldn't drive in extra troops to the "missile base". The "enemy special operatives would need to rely on surprise. That has already been lost. Superior numbers would be enough to demolish them.

Then the Marcos personnel who returned from the operation reported to his fellow Marcos and gave him the details. The senior army officer who told this story was only given the news that the operation was a success and there were no casualties on Indian side where as the enemy sabotage groups were completely destroyed and now they can carry out their maintenance work. Maybe he can sell this story to Bollywood?Then theses Marcos personnel flew back to their base.


These "uncle" stories *sigh*

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Amit J » 13 Jan 2010 01:05

tsarkar wrote:“why haven’t we taken down the terrorist training camps behind LOC?”

This is a question every Indian asks.

Hot Pursuit option was assessed. Recce across borders still happens, whether via UAV's or personnel.

However it was soon realized that a terrorist training camp infrastructure is a few tents, trashy pulp, AK’s, RPG’s and UMG’s churned cheaply at POF, and obstacle courses dug using shovels or raised using poles, planks and ropes.

Plus the terrorists have the home ground advantage – unlimited reinforcements and material.

Bombing or attacking them marginally disrupts, but never stops the flow. A terrorist training camp can be wound up or set up in a day.

Using special forces and equipment against NON STRATEGIC objectives is wasteful. Returns aren’t proportionate.

Hence RR, CRPF and BSF troops take on insurgents, when they are divided into small teams while crossing into or operating in India, with limited supplies and support.

That is why Liberty ships were built – build them faster than the Germans could possibly sink them. That is why RR was raised. Infantry battalions leveraging Regimental Centers across the country to train men with better quality and in more quantity than the terror camps.

Special forces should be used with strategic objectives, like taking a strategic pass, ridgeline, bridge, beach-head, enemy supply lines, etc and form a pivot for success of our larger formations. Any use otherwise is wasteful. Officers marked for higher command are taught how to - and how not to - use special forces. Capturing Haji Pir, attempting to disrupt Indian airfields, attempting to capture Prabhakaran to paralyse the LTTE, etc., are such objectives


Special Forces and intelligence operatives should focus on the perpetrators, planners, handlers of terrorist attacks in India either to capture or to eliminate. However not all terrorist camps are just tents and trenches, some are vast complexes those should be distroyed, wired and blown up. A terrorist infrastructures main element is the people behind it eliminate them. 3 decades of diplomacy has not gotten us anything hot. The RAW is capable of doing this (am not sure abt currently in Pakistan, but it can be done) they have done it in Nepal from where quite a few were abducted in and were later released to the law enforcement agencies. I mean the Punjab extremism wasnt solved by diplomacy, there are some hard truths that we must accept. ISI infrastructure is too big for a political leadership of pakistan to take down, they are never going to stop supporting terrorists, eliminate the big heads of the serpent and we can handle any other heads that spring up and eventualy kill the snake

Amit J
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Amit J » 13 Jan 2010 01:09

Sachin wrote:
sum wrote:Thats why even the Karnataka police had allowed the TNP to send in their "boys" to elimnate a dreaded terrorist in MSR Nagar, B'luru 6-7 years back.

Bingo !! Dot on. TN State Police commandos would be rated the best in the Southern states. Smaller states like Kerala, send their men to the "Commando School" operated by the T.N Police. The incident which happened in Bangalore.

1. Imam Ali a wanted Jehadi of the Tamil Nadu police was hiding in Bengaluru for quite some time. By tracking the cell phones, Tamizh Naadu Kaaval knows the exact location of the Jehadi. They discuss this with their Bangalore counterparts, and honestly speaking Bangalore Police did not have the setup to storm the hide out. They how ever provided good information to the TN Police about the home. Two people (a man and a woman) went to the hide out of Imam Ali as people looking for a home (on rent), surveyed the home and came back.

2. TN Police brings in their commandos from Coimbatore (the rumour was that they did it by air-lifting). The hide out is attacked at 2AM in the morning, and Imam Ali and his accomplices were finished off. The current chap on the lime lights Shri. Thadiyantavida Nazeer was staying in the same house at that time. Nazir had stepped out of this place to fetch some snacks, and he escaped.

3. The then police commissioner Mr. Sangliana is seen posing with the policemen in the next day's news paper. The reports also had words like "police shoot dead two terrorists", while being ambiguous about which state's police actually did the job. Sangliana being the "show man", tried to get the maximum weight age out of the situation. The TN Police does the dirty job, while Mr. Commissioner Sangliana struts around as if he led the entire operation :roll: .

An overview of this incident


The blogosphere is rife with praise for the TN state police commandos, however i am yet to read about them in detail, is there an open source literature out there, i look forward to read all there is about them

Thanks in Advance

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 13 Jan 2010 09:04

they have done it in Nepal from where quite a few were abducted in and were later released to the law enforcement agencies.

Errr..Nepal isnt also exactly a case of "operation in hostile land" since most of the operations were conducted with full involvement of the local agencies. Our sleuths didn't operate without knowledge of the host (in most cases) and most certainly didnt smuggle out the pigs without informing the locals, unlike the Israelis and Russians have done in the past.

Am not sure if we even have such capabilities since Pak is a different ballgame and is completely hostile to us(unlike Nepal).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2010 09:22

Sachin wrote: The TN Police does the dirty job, while Mr. Commissioner Sangliana struts around as if he led the entire operation :roll: .

An overview of this incident



But Sachin - politically what Sangliana did was the correct thing. The important things was getting the terrorists and not setting off a Karnataka-Tamil Nadu people's lungitwist battle because Kannadigas got jealous. Most police and forces people who actually bump off dangerous oiseaules keep a low profile and that is how it should be for their personal safety.


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