Discussion on Indian Special Forces

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Dec 2010 08:40

One notpick/doubt from AdityaG's post:

Resume of another ex-SF alumnus - this time from 22SF ... gives plenty of clues.

Doesnt the resume show the guy to be a SFF warrior ( Establishment-22)?

Doesn't 22SF refer to the SG which is a "bit" different than the SFF or are both( 22SF/SG and SFF) the same?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Dec 2010 10:27

Aditya G wrote:Resume of another ex-SF alumnus - this time from 22SF ... gives plenty of clues.

<SNIP>

The resume only says SFF and SFF=/ 22SF(SG).

No more discussion on SG or I'll get big stick from Surya saar....

Riza Zaman · Post by **Riza Zaman** » 08 Dec 2010 20:36

PMCs (Private Military Company) in Iraq or Afghanistan, in theory, are not permitted to engage in "actual combat". The reality on the ground is very different - the most notable being the incident in which Blackwater operatives fought side-by-side with US troops when they were attacked at a drop-off point for a convoy being escorted by the former. According to the report, the firefight lasted 4+ hours during which Blackwater operatives were under direct command of the US troops and were used in a an offensive capability. Once you're on the ground as an armed "foreigner" the distinction between a mercenary and a US/NATO soldier is as important as a fart in the wind.

In Kabul, one of the top security firms is being run by a trio of ex Indian Army officers (one was a Major) and the TATA presence in the country relies upon them exclusively. Their staff is comprised 20:80 ex IA soldiers:Afghans. They're also heavily involved in guarding Standard Chartered Bank, and other soft targets. Also, as a middleman, they've been sponging up a lot of the retired talent from the Army for other security agencies in Afghanistan. The pakis raised a huge & cry accusing the firm of training members of the Turi tribe, accused them of being RAW agents, etc.

Members of the ITBP (last I head was 300+ personnel) were providing security to MEA and BRO officials in Afghanistan, but most hire private security guards.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Dec 2010 21:09

thanks Riza

interesting

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Dec 2010 21:19

Interesting Riza! Given that Afghanistan is our neighbourhood, and Indians being used to conditions similar to Afghanistan, I don't see why ex-IA folks shouldn't capitalize on it. They can provide similar or better services at much better rates than companies like Blackwater! From a business PoV, it is a good move and all the more power to such folks!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Dec 2010 22:09

It also means that the GOI covertly approves

because the GOi 'requested' folks not to join Iraq offers

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 09 Dec 2010 00:06

It also means that the GOI covertly approves

because the GOi 'requested' folks not to join Iraq offers

i agree with the assessment and can back up what mr riza said about a certain company in kabul

.

PS the SFF soldier in question was ironically in charge of nearly a companys worth of Nigerian troops. Because of the Mitals presence in algeria you will find ex IA guys all over the country including consulting with their Intel orgs.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Dec 2010 03:06

sum, rohit - the soldier has experience in both

(a) para commando - who has served in Sri Lanka
(b) SFF

I assumed that to be able to served in both one has to be from Spl Group. Did not know that "SFF" could have deputees from other regiments as well.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Dec 2010 03:22

^^^Not true....SG is a different beast.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Dec 2010 03:50

^^
So, IA soldiers get deputed to SFF (not SG) too?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Dec 2010 03:58

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Dec 2010 14:05

Surya wrote:sigh

.............don't blame me. I warned them.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Dec 2010 16:43

^^
Arre bhai..I am not asking about SFF SG. I am just asking whether IA personnel get deputed to SFF (other than SFF SG).

Hopefully, discussing SFF is OK?

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 Dec 2010 17:21

Gaur wrote:^^ So, IA soldiers get deputed to SFF (not SG) too?

Yes, a contingent of Gorkhas and Kumaonis are regular part of the SFF for nearly 2 decades now. There is no need to act hush-hush about it -- It was setup as part of normalizing relations with PRC, along with other constraints on the SFF; the Chinese gave similar concessions. Plus you have to remember that the first couple of generation of SFF were picked from the best of tough Tibetan tribesmen and the erstwhile Tibetan Army; now such hardened pool is shrinking while the Indian pool is constant.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Dec 2010 11:16

found a group of kolkata police special action force (SAF) guys returning from delhi, I guess after being trained by NSG, going by large number of NSG jackets donned by them. for a change they were all wiry guys who looked supremely fit.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Dec 2010 12:22

SFF is hush-hush all right but not *that* hush-hush

In a certain Dilli location you will still find some of the original vets and in a certain other Dilli location or two you will still find some of the spooks and affsars who started it all. And the majority of info about them was gleaned from grandpa and when some of his old pals used to visit for a drink (incld. fun stuff about the Mukti Bahini days).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Dec 2010 17:50

is the beer bar & biryani rooms at dhaula kuan defence club one of these watering holes?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 04 Jan 2011 00:18

^^^ Are you talking the probation for the balidan badge?! If so then the probation is one year or 6 months if on active operations and its been that way for a while.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jan 2011 00:49

they clearly mention that para is 90 days while para SF is 180 days, i.e 6 months.

10. Probation. All ranks (Officers and PBOR) Volunteering for the Parachute Regiment will undergo probation in respective units, as under :-

(a) PARA Bns : 90 days

(b) PARA (SF) Bns : 180 days to include continuation training.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Jan 2011 08:59

Thank god further damage has been stopped.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Jan 2011 18:43

pkpandey

Previously when we had the original 4 Para SF , it used to be 3 months for Para and 6 months for Para SF.

Then came a certain genius general (he gave an interview to FO RCE) who became the Col of Para Regmt. He decided that Para = SF and wanted a high speed conversion of all Para to SF. Part of the process involved reducing the probationof Para SF to 3 months. The decision caused major damage. Once that General retired the next guys who came in reversed the order and Para SF went back to 6 months probation.

[Note: It is possible individual COs of existing bns probably stuck to the 6 month probation]

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 10 Jan 2011 13:59

pkpandey wrote:I had this question ringing in my mind since a long time. Are, amc docs allowed to join para sf or nsg as combatants or they are limited only upto rmo? What's the policy? Is anyone aware of such cases?

PARA SF was discussed in very high detail a few pages back. Check the posts by rohitvats and vaibhav.n. You will find your answers there and much more.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 10 Jan 2011 14:10

I have a question regarding the SFF.
Earlier as i knew it was composed of Tibetan irregulars designed to conduct covert operations behind enemy lines.Are they a part of the Indian army or are they under the paramilitary forces of India ? What is the current status of the SFF ?
Are they still maintained for the above purpose or have they been dedicated to another role like fighting insurgency.
Also What is the level of their training ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 10 Jan 2011 14:50

^^

rohitvats wrote:Each Infantry Battalion in IA has a Regimental Medical Officer (RMO) - these chaps are of Captain rank and fresh out of AFMC. In case someone volunteers for Para - he has to undergo the Para Course at Agra and once he is successful, there are two routes - opt for RMO with a Para Battalion or serve with 50 Para Field Ambulance - the medical outfit of our 50 (I) Para Brigade. Para qualified doctors rotate to this unit thorugh out their career - they alsi have to do fresher jumps every year.

Some of the more cranked cases will opt for Para(SF) for RMO attachment - these fellows have to undergo the three month probation - on the same lines as Infantry Chaps.......and they lead operations. Once they complete the probation - they get to wear the Balidan Badge. During a visit to one of the Army hospitals, you may see a Cardiologist or a Urologist or some other specialist with a Balidan Badge. Maroon Beret and Wings. You know where he has been in his younger days.

Attachment as RMO with any unit is for a period of 2-3 years.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Jan 2011 05:24

pkpandey wrote:There's an ambiguity in what rohit says. He says that those who opt for para sf as rmo go through 3 months probation as others. But others actually go through 6 months PROBATION. With 3 months PROBATION he's only a rmo, how can he lead troops in combat?

The probation duration mentioned was same as that for SF probationers and refers to recent phenomenon....as Surya said couple of posts ago, it was 6months earlier (and back again) and the docs went through the same. You'll find AMC officers and other ranks sporting the Balidan Badge and the SG wings.....but I'm given to understand that the practice of AMC officers earning the Balidan Badge anymore has been stopped. I don't know whether they will undergo probation or not. Will check and revert.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Jan 2011 05:40

If you want to wear the balidan badge you do whatver the probation period is - no ifs and buts

Whether you are a cook, pujari, doctor, CO, batman whatever - you do the prescribed probation

if probation is 6 months (which it is now) then you do 6 months

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Jan 2011 12:34

To give 'irregulars' punch, forces go shopping for hi-tech weapons

NEW DELHI: India is slowly but surely strengthening its "irregular'' or "unconventional'' warfare arm. Modernisation of the special forces of Army, Navy and IAF, trained to undertake covert missions deep behind enemy lines and hit high-value targets with precision, is now finally gathering steam.

The latest weaponry to be inducted into the Army's seven Para-SF and three Para-SF (airborne) battalions, Navy's marine commandos and IAF's Garud force are 5.56mm TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles and 7.62mm Galil sniper rifles.

Defence ministry sources say the deliveries of the around 5,500 Tavor rifles and 220 Galil rifles to the three special forces, which together number almost 10,000 top-notch combatants, were completed this month.

"The procurement case for the three special forces was taken up in a consolidated manner by the integrated defence staff. The rifles have come with associated equipment like sights, under-barrel grenade launchers and the like,'' said a source.

Other specialised equipment has either been inducted or is finally in the pipeline after several delays. These range from M4A1 carbines, all-terrain multi-utility vehicles, GPS navigation systems, modular acquisition devices to laser range-finders, high-frequency communication sets, combat free-fall parachutes and even underwater remotely-operated vehicles from countries like the US, Israel, France and Sweden.

Incidentally, there is also now a joint tri-Service doctrine for the special forces, which focuses on the increasingly dominant role played by such highly-trained forces at all levels of war, be it tactical, operational or strategic.

The doctrine does chart out the ideal command and control organisation necessary for joint special forces tasking, joint planning aspects at theatre-level, including operational, environmental and intelligence requirements.

But as of now, there is no firm decision to go in for a tri-Service Special Forces Command, tasked with planning and executing clandestine warfare, on the lines of the Strategic Forces Command which deals with nuclear weapons.

Indian special forces, unfortunately, have for long largely been treated as adjuncts to regular troops, restricted more to the tactical arena rather than being considered strategic assets to be used sparingly but with decisive effect.

The Army, on its part, has chalked out major plans for its special forces, which includes more battalions and dedicated Army Aviation Special Operations Squadrons, with helicopters and aircraft.

The need to strengthen the special forces was underlined during the 10-month-long troop mobilisation along the Indo-Pak border under Operation Parakram in 2002.

The Army doctrine holds the special forces have to undertake strategic and tactical surveillance of vital enemy targets, gather intelligence, hit-and-run operations, laser-designated bombing and other such operations in times of war.

During low-intensity conflicts, they can undertake "seek and destroy missions'' as well as "trans-border operations''. Hostage-rescue, anti-terrorist operations and assistance to friendly foreign governments would be their other peace-time missions.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Jan 2011 02:39

This is a result of Raja's post in the Misc picture thread

This is a chaiwallah story so take it FWIW

During the unfortunate hostage crisis in J&K a long time ago

a small number of TFTA sooper dooper SAS came to the state.

Or SDRE SF offered to send some men with them into the mountains and were told to butt out as sooper dooper operates independently and the goras will get more local help because they are so kind and gentle.

So every morning the sooper dooper SAS would trudge into the mountains and come back weary and empty handed.

And every few days the SDRE SF would keep offering help.

After a couple of weeks - sooper dooper SAS packed up and left with didly squat to show for

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jan 2011 02:58

you mean the al-faran kidnappings ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Jan 2011 03:08

Yes

The brits are cunning ba$tards

later as traing with our SF became the flavour of the month, the shameless turds sent in a couple of their marines\para for a training session with our SF and not the SAS.

We politely told them to eff off and sent likewise some non SF troopers

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jan 2011 10:02

^^^There is a mention of the involvement of SAS in autobiography of Gen. SR Choudhary. He was called in by PVNR and broke to him news about government decision to allow SAS to come in and try some stunts. The good general protested that there is nothing his SF boys cannot do, or even more, which the SAS can accomplish. Good old PVNR told him that let them run around for some time and loose steam.....won't make a difference.

The GOI was on a shaky wicket and there was lot of pressure on PVNR.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Jan 2011 10:24

Yea that incident was the Al-Faran kidnapping. In the Misc pics thread I was referring to rumours of sooper-dooper SAS after 11/9/2001. For all their sooper-dooperness SAS does have a lot of disciplinary problems for an elite unit.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 23 Jan 2011 20:55

S_Prasad wrote:Dhruv Marketing video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8p3jMi6yDA

Check out this video from 'LCH and other Helicopters Discussion thread' at 6:25. Looks like a Ghatak Platoon sitting cozy. Notice the PASGT type helmets, gloves for slithering, what looks like a Dragunov and an AK with UBGL next to it. The name and insignia patches seem to be blacked out. Makes me speculate if these Ghataks have 'wings'

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Jan 2011 12:45

** Post deleted per user request**

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Jan 2011 18:50

Remembered one more thing. The Officer told me in brief his views regarding conversion of PARA to SF. He says he is OK with it. He gave the example of conversion of MLI to 2SF. When that happened, only the CO, 2IC and a young officer volunteered for 2SF. So, for all practical purposes, it was a new unit and had nothing to do with any MLI unit.

Also, the officer told me that the PARA SF personnel have the choice to permanently convert to SF. This means that the officer will no longer return to his parent regiment as he will now only belong to parachute regiment. This option is obviously available to soldiers of all corps.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Jan 2011 19:11

Remembered one more thing. The Officer told me in brief his views regarding conversion of PARA to SF. He says he is OK with it. He gave the example of conversion of MLI to 2SF. When that happened, only the CO, 2IC and a young officer volunteered for 2SF. So, for all practical purposes, it was a new unit and had nothing to do with any MLI unit.

Sorry my friend

the man fed you baloney.

The issue is not of conversion but shortening the probation to 3 months!!!

As long as they convert in usual fashion of 6 months probabtion - no one has any issue.

in fact the poor 2IC of the Maratha bn died in the gruelling conversion

The other issue is - did the MOD sanction the extra SF bn or this was Para HQs wet dream.

Remember you saw that list of allowances etc. They do not come out of think blue air. MOD needs to sanction. When MOD does not sanction but Para HQ designates whatever it wants all sort strange games are played which I will not go into here

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 24 Jan 2011 19:18

Surya wrote:This is a result of Raja's post in the Misc picture thread

This is a chaiwallah story so take it FWIW

During the unfortunate hostage crisis in J&K a long time ago

a small number of TFTA sooper dooper SAS came to the state.

Or SDRE SF offered to send some men with them into the mountains and were told to butt out as sooper dooper operates independently and the goras will get more local help because they are so kind and gentle.

So every morning the sooper dooper SAS would trudge into the mountains and come back weary and empty handed.

And every few days the SDRE SF would keep offering help.

After a couple of weeks - sooper dooper SAS packed up and left with didly squat to show for

That corroborates my chaiwallah story from many many moons ago, when I actually had a chaiwalla

Another tidbit from the chaiwallah was that they (at least two) weren't 'tourists' and were halaled by some deft work of kaccha log (jhoota flag op) not corroborated and hence suspect.

This incident got SAS PNG'ed with our SF. Recently though the SBS were allowed to train with our SF.

Re: problem of discipline in SAS, I now recall a conversation with my Brit friend's dad, (ex-SAS), some moons ago.
In his opinion, the character of the armed forces has changed in UK and it reflects onto the SAS as well although not to the extent of the main forces. The training and all is the same but the 'values' are eroding quite a bit, due to the 'lesser' beings allowed in to make up numbers. Also SAS background commands a premium in the private security arena. Combine them all and one finds a reason for the growing indiscipline amongst them. If you are getting more aspiring mercenaries than soldiers, then you have a problems for sure.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Jan 2011 19:35

Surya wrote:
Sorry my friend

the man fed you baloney.

The issue is not of conversion but shortening the probation to 3 months!!!

As long as they convert in usual fashion of 6 months probabtion - no one has any issue.

in fact the poor 2IC of the Maratha bn died in the gruelling conversion

The other issue is - did the MOD sanction the extra SF bn or this was Para HQs wet dream.

Remember you saw that list of allowances etc. They do not come out of think blue air. MOD needs to sanction. When MOD does not sanction but Para HQ designates whatever it wants all sort strange games are played which I will not go into here

Yes, he the death of 2IC was unfortunate. He died in water but I was not able to get the details as the time was limited. However, I do not see how that has anything to do with conversion. I will not go into details of the deaths during SF training in an open forum as I am sure you are aware of the approximate number and rate. So, you know that it had nothing to do with the 2IC being from MLI.

The rest of your points are valid though. Will discuss them in detail the next time I meat him.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Jan 2011 19:51

marut ji, no disrespect to your chaiwalla, but isnt it more likely that such suspicious people would suddenly find themselves without the right permit for the area and have to be escorted out?

my chaiwalla in the past has told me stories that are so blatantly and ridiculously wrong that i fell off my chair laughing - or i would have if i didn't have to show respect to him and pretend he was all knowing all seeing...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Jan 2011 20:02

Gaur

Not sure why you think I meant to say it had anything to do with MLI???

I was just trying to emphsize the extralevel of toughness that 6 months requires -
The point is that the diff between the 3 month probation the idiot Para generals wanted and the 6 month probation which the original SF used.

Think of it - you are slogged through 3 months with only 1 alternate Sunday off. Men around you are falling off and you still have 3 more months to go.

That is the diff - men give up into the 5th month. only the truly tough hang on.

If you get a chance - watch them

BTW your friend is also wrong in saying only 3 men from the MLI volunteered.