Discussion on Indian Special Forces

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 May 2011 13:53

^^ Marut-ji,
Did you receive your copy of the SF book you ordered? Was just waiting for a last ditch attempt at procuring one by "other means" and if it fails, am planning to order via the same Lancer website. Hope that it is reliable!!

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 01 May 2011 14:03

^ Ordered on Monday and received on Friday. Used the courier option and worth the extra moolah. No hassles and very smooth. Definitely worth patronizing Lancer.

ps: Sum, I only have a few more white hair than you, so please drop the 'ji'

pps: what is this 'other means' you talk of? seems to be some SF type way

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 May 2011 14:10

Since this is a SF dhaga, things need to sound exotic and dangerous!!!

Was just referring to the good ol' Indian style connection where few chai-wallahs were contacted to try and get a copy, even if on loan for few days....

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 May 2011 08:20

^^ Next week "MISSION ARMY" on NatGeo features Para-SF....the teaser did look interesting with lots of clips on Para SF/their training/para-jumping from An-32s etc... jingoes should not miss this concluding episode.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 03 May 2011 11:51

sum wrote:^^ Next week "MISSION ARMY" on NatGeo features Para-SF....the teaser did look interesting with lots of clips on Para SF/their training/para-jumping from An-32s etc... jingoes should not miss this concluding episode.

Episode 1

There are other episodes too on the youtube

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 May 2011 21:55

Episode 7 is also very interesting. It shows Para Signals in action. This includes para jumps. I didn't know that Para Signals are also known as Pathfinders. It was an interesting titbit.

Another interesting clip was of the base jumping performed recently by a Signals Officer (the news was posted here at that time).

Here is the link of ep 7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dUdOEfcQpY

I have also posted all the other episodes on Multimedia thread some time back.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 May 2011 02:36

http://www.hindustantimes.com/What-Indi ... 92546.aspx

What India can learn from Operation Osama

...

The families of the 26/11 victims are still awaiting justice. They will not get it from Pakistan courts.

(Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (retired) is director, Centre for Land Warfare Studies, New Delhi)

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 May 2011 03:02

^^
This is sheer stupidity!

And I have never used this term before for a piece authored by an Ex-Serviceman (even if I disagreed). But this is even surpassing the DDMites.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for covert operations and taking out these pigs. But how can one draw a parallel between this "Operation Osama" and the Indian situation. Op Geronimo had US taking off helicopters from the Pakistani soil. In a territory where they had been present for nearly a decade. Against a target who had no protection and in the presence of Military Forces which would not have dared attack an American Chopper.

This was an Intel Operation. As soon as his location was exposed, OBL was already dead. He just hadn't known it yet (OK..too filmi but couldn't resist

) From a Military Standpoint, there was nothing extraordinary here. And the author mentions the words "intelligence" and "Political will only once (which are the things that actually matter in this case). Instead, he devotes 90% of the article on TFTAness of the Seals. Really? The guy wants full fledged Airborne Indian SF Operation on Islamabad?

Again, I am all for sending pigs to jannat, but using Op Geronimo as a "Military" example for India is ridiculous to say the least.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 04 May 2011 04:03

Gaur wrote:I didn't know that Para Signals are also known as Pathfinders. It was an interesting titbit.

The Pathfinder Company is a specialized recce unit for Indian airborne formations recruited from all para-qualified personnel, it is not exclusively Signals. The only time it was homogenous was during WW-II, when the Viceroy's Bodyguard Cavalry was converted into this role en-masse.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 04 May 2011 04:17

Gaur wrote:Don't get me wrong. I am all for covert operations and taking out these pigs. But how can one draw a parallel between this "Operation Osama" and the Indian situation.

He is drawing the parallels in the principles, not the particulars. India has its own advantages and disadvantages when it comes to such operations. You brought up all the disadvantages, but also consider the advantages that India enjoys; for instance, common ethnicities and languages makes ground-level penetration easier for Indians than for Western intelligence and SOFC.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 May 2011 05:29

^^^Saar if you have seen any of the Amirkhan SOF back from deployment in AfPak - going by their looks and beards they can meld in very well with the TFTA mards of the AfPak frontier. The first time I saw it, I got quite a turn! The language is an issue esp. the accent but that can be mastered over time.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 May 2011 10:41

Raja Bose wrote:^^^Saar if you have seen any of the Amirkhan SOF back from deployment in AfPak - going by their looks and beards they can meld in very well with the TFTA mards of the AfPak frontier. The first time I saw it, I got quite a turn! The language is an issue esp. the accent but that can be mastered over time.

They will try since they have 30 years of relationship with the mujahid.
But they still recruit 'south asia' types and teach them farsi/poshto/balochi/pashtuni and melt them inside.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 04 May 2011 11:44

It doesn't have to be an American style "shock & awe" operation.

Even a Mossad style kidnapping in the night or a KGB style radioactive pellet could be useful if certain individuals were targeted.

It just requires proactive efforts on the ground and setting up long-term infiltration networks.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 May 2011 12:01

ParGha,
My impression of the article was that the Author was advocating a Military Raid (He even mentions Airborne Capability). Maybe I misunderstood him..but I doubt it.

What you are mentioning is exactly what I am trying to convey. To my mind, we would need to use more subtle methods. When we take these pigs out, it should neither be nor look like a Military Operation on Pakistani Soil. A blast here, an accident there or even some radiation poisoning will be more suitable for Indian Needs. Ok..I have watched Bourne Series one too many times..but you get the general idea.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 May 2011 15:16

Gaur,

Your impression is right. I saw the head line and name and had skipped in (yesterday?).

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 May 2011 15:22

Gaur wrote:ParGha,
My impression of the article was that the Author was advocating a Military Raid (He even mentions Airborne Capability). Maybe I misunderstood him..but I doubt it.

What you are mentioning is exactly what I am trying to convey. To my mind, we would need to use more subtle methods. When we take these pigs out, it should neither be nor look like a Military Operation on Pakistani Soil. A blast here, an accident there or even some radiation poisoning will be more suitable for Indian Needs. Ok..I have watched Bourne Series one too many times..but you get the general idea.

Ours can be all Djinn ops. (e.g., The kashmir diary style)

(if forgotten the kashmir diary - here is the link http://counterinsurgent.blogspot.com/20 ... ory-i.html)

atul.arvind · Post by **atul.arvind** » 05 May 2011 11:24

just saw a jeep full of Para Commandos in bangalore

in full combat attire with Trevor and whole communication headset and all.....any idea what could they be upto??
From the stance in which they were sitting looked quite aggressive (or defensive depends how you see it) with back of the jeep open and a commando facing back brandishing his sexy rifle...

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 May 2011 11:26

^^ Where was this??

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 05 May 2011 11:28

in which area u saw this..

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 05 May 2011 12:03

atul.arvind wrote:just saw a jeep full of Para Commandos in bangalore in full combat attire with Trevor and whole communication headset and all.....any idea what could they be upto??
From the stance in which they were sitting looked quite aggressive (or defensive depends how you see it) with back of the jeep open and a commando facing back brandishing his sexy rifle...

Trevor = Tavor right?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 05 May 2011 12:25

atul.arvind wrote:just saw a jeep full of Para Commandos in bangalore in full combat attire with Trevor and whole communication headset and all.....any idea what could they be upto??

They were hunting for the GHQ of one of their mates who eloped with a territorial army fella.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 May 2011 12:26

atul.arvind wrote:just saw a jeep full of Para Commandos in bangalore in full combat attire with Trevor and whole communication headset and all.....any idea what could they be upto??
From the stance in which they were sitting looked quite aggressive (or defensive depends how you see it) with back of the jeep open and a commando facing back brandishing his sexy rifle...

You lucky B***ard! Anyway, Parachute Regimental Centre is located in Bangalore. So, their being in that city is nothing to wonder at.

Raja Bose wrote: They were hunting for the GHQ of one of their mates who eloped with a territorial army fella.

Nice one.

atul.arvind · Post by **atul.arvind** » 05 May 2011 13:57

@chandragupta..my apoligie for the spelling.

..

It was near the bangalore cantonment area...actually they were coming out from the parachute Regimental Centre...

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 05 May 2011 14:44

Commandos on call for Mumbai’s rich

Mumbai’s rich and famous are increasingly hiring retired SPG commandos as well as defence and paramilitary officers who have been part of the elite special protection group (SPG) to beef up their security.

A source close to Mukesh Ambani admitted that the billionaire is hiring military personnel above the rank of Colonel and some retired IPS officers who have been part of the PM’s security detail.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 05 May 2011 16:39

They are just taking a leaf out of west's rich and famous. Many hollywood stars are protected by former Israeli special forces commandos (including Matkal and Shaldag). Al-Fayeds in Britain are protected by former SAS and SBS guys .DynCorp,CACI etc hire former specops guys in US for protection of govt officials/businessmen abroad and the list goes on..

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 May 2011 18:12

Gaur wrote:^^
This is sheer stupidity! And I have never used this term before for a piece authored by an Ex-Serviceman (even if I disagreed). But this is even surpassing the DDMites.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for covert operations and taking out these pigs. But how can one draw a parallel between this "Operation Osama" and the Indian situation. Op Geronimo had US taking off helicopters from the Pakistani soil. In a territory where they had been present for nearly a decade. Against a target who had no protection and in the presence of Military Forces which would not have dared attack an American Chopper.

This was an Intel Operation. As soon as his location was exposed, OBL was already dead. He just hadn't known it yet (OK..too filmi but couldn't resist ) From a Military Standpoint, there was nothing extraordinary here. And the author mentions the words "intelligence" and "Political will only once (which are the things that actually matter in this case). Instead, he devotes 90% of the article on TFTAness of the Seals. Really? The guy wants full fledged Airborne Indian SF Operation on Islamabad?

Again, I am all for sending pigs to jannat, but using Op Geronimo as a "Military" example for India is ridiculous to say the least.

Very well said.

The US operation was hardly covert. They refuelled at Tarbela Ghazi in Pakistan (despite recent but fervent Pakistani denials) and were fairly certain the Pakistanis wouldn't attempt to interfere during an active fire-fight. But more importantly the Americans knew they could manage the political and diplomatic fallout from the operation.

The strategic implications are forgotten in the glamour behind a tactical operation. Sure the Indian military can carry out an airborne/heli-borne operation in Pakistani territory as well, but one needs to be prepared for a probable escalation into war (declared or undeclared).

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 05 May 2011 18:16

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110505.htm
Stealth choppers used exclusively for Osama hunt!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 May 2011 10:44

Indian Army Parachute Regiment celebrates 250 years of existence

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 07 May 2011 10:53

People may disagree with me here but I dont think LiveFist did the right thing by releasing that pictorial depiction of how Indian Spec-ops would take out D-company's head in Karachi. IMO, LiveFist has put out the illustration in a fit of bravado, or in a 'rush of blood' after seeing the jubilation after Op Geronimo, or the Air Chief's positive response to an essentially rhetorical question. Some things are better left unsaid and it is much more applicable in this case!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 May 2011 10:56

Klaus wrote:People may disagree with me here but I dont think LiveFist did the right thing by releasing that pictorial depiction of how Indian Spec-ops would take out D-company's head in Karachi. IMO, LiveFist has put out the illustration in a fit of bravado, or in a 'rush of blood' after seeing the jubilation after Op Geronimo, or the Air Chief's positive response to an essentially rhetorical question. Some things are better left unsaid and it is much more applicable in this case!

It is actually a novel by one of the retd armee fella. It has this scenario where they kill the smuggler in paki land. The jpeg has got nothing to do with reality.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 May 2011 11:01

Klaus wrote:People may disagree with me here but I dont think LiveFist did the right thing by releasing that pictorial depiction of how Indian Spec-ops would take out D-company's head in Karachi. IMO, LiveFist has put out the illustration in a fit of bravado, or in a 'rush of blood' after seeing the jubilation after Op Geronimo, or the Air Chief's positive response to an essentially rhetorical question. Some things are better left unsaid and it is much more applicable in this case!

Don't worry Boss, because our politicians have no balls. So the question of taking out Dawood Ibrahim does not even arise. The Pakis will get a good laugh out of the drawing and so will we. Just leave it at that. He will continue to enjoy a good life, till one fine day...when the ISI sees no need for him anymore and then they only will take him out.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 May 2011 11:46

Rakesh wrote:He will continue to enjoy a good life, till one fine day...when the ISI sees no need for him anymore and then they only will take him out.

You are soooo right. IMO, if India police manages to keep a lid on his MUmbai income source, ISI will dispose him faster.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 May 2011 15:00

given the alcohol and mutton rich diet of these NRI urban criminals , heart attack and stress will claim such types at a fairly young age. even in karachi its not that he has a run of the place. the local gangsters have no love for these "ISI installed kirayae ke kutte" and would just love a chance to throw him in the sea.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 07 May 2011 16:14

David Abraham is currently convalescing from a cardiac arrest recently, guess we can 'help' him with the recovery.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 May 2011 22:47

And yes that graphic was imagination of some journalist after he got some pointers from some "sources" even pakis didnt use a bus duint 26/11, come on RAW is not that dumb

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 08 May 2011 23:30

Marut wrote:Since everyone seems to have tired out of discussing SG, SFF, Vikas, Est 22, etc and being none the wiser,
I strongly suggest that an RTI query be filed to get the clear picture. It will save a lot of heartburn we see on this thread.

anyone taking this seriously is hereby condemned to endure Surya's secret chants and spells

While we mention 'Est 22' with bated breath and only after we look over our shoulder, a simple googling reveals it is 'not so secret' as we think

http://www.orellsoft.com/language-lab-clients.html

Orell

Clients
We have over 1000 clients in the education sector alone spread across the length and breadth of India, SAARC countries, USA, Middle east and Africa.
We are furnishing you with details of a few of our clients where we have installed the latest version of our educational software.
Some of our recent installations

Clients in India

Northern Region:

Indian Army, EST No.22, Dehradun (Uttarakhand)

CMTHS-HNB Garhwal University, Srinagar Garhwal. (Uttarakhand)

Indian Army – Bihar Regimental Centre, Danapur. (Bihar)

Amity International School, Saket. (Delhi)

or again this - see clients in India

http://www.4pl.in/clients.php

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 May 2011 23:37

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_pa ... ft_1540713

...

After Operation Geronimo,Indian Army chief General VK Singh was quick to come out with a statement that has become a talking point: “All arms of the military are competent to carry out such an op.” Indian Air Force chief PV Naik also said that India has the capability to carry out such surgical strikes.
What they don’t spell out are two crucial pre-requisites for such strikes: political will and intelligence. On both counts, we have reason to worry.

Former IAF chief, FH Major, who was the chief of air staff during the 26/11 attack, says our tardy response exposed the lack of command and control of the various agencies participating in the operation. “These are government ops and do not belong only to the military.”

Retired Lt Gen HS Panag, who commanded the army’s Northern Command in J&K, “There are 10 SF battalions apart from NSG and there is also a Special Frontier Force, but there is no Special Forces command. Moreover, our training and equipment are 50% that of US special forces, and we can strike only 50-70 km into Pakistan. Our SF is only used for tactical purposes during war, never strategically for special operations.”

As for gathering intelligence on Dawood, Lt Gen PC Katoch, a Special Forces para-commando who led the SF team in the Golden Temple operation, points out what we’re up against: “The CIA operates as a CTPT (counter terrorism pursuit team) in Pakistan; can India do that?”

The Indian government’s announcement in the late 90s that no intelligence agents would go across the border further limited the options before our agencies. In contrast, Barack Obama announced last year that Special Forces would be deployed in 85 countries. “The US has around 3,000 operatives in Pakistan, whereas India does not have even 300. The CIA is very much at home in Pakistan, something that India can’t achieve,” says AS Dulat, former R&AW chief.

...

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 May 2011 07:21

X Posted from the Indian Army News and Discussion thread.

Retired Major General Ashok K Mehta in the Wall Street Journal:

India's Own Operation Geronimo? : Preparing for a strike today could avoid the need for an actual one tomorrow

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 May 2011 08:29

The only positive i could find in the article in DNADaily on Indian ops in Pak ( posted by AdityaG) was this:

“The US has around 3,000 operatives in Pakistan, whereas India does not have even 300. The CIA is very much at home in Pakistan, something that India can’t achieve,” says AS Dulat, former R&AW chief.

Atleast we are not "operative-nude" in Pak and the number are being quoted in 3 digits...

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 May 2011 08:31

arun wrote:X Posted from the Indian Army News and Discussion thread.

Retired Major General Ashok K Mehta in the Wall Street Journal:

India's Own Operation Geronimo? : Preparing for a strike today could avoid the need for an actual one tomorrow

Could any kind soul post/list the main points since this seems to be subscriber only site...