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Discussion on Indian Special Forces

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
rkhanna
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Oct 2017 11:42

Garuds from the Encounter

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 11 Oct 2017 12:06

Were they the 2 men killed in the encounter?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby wig » 11 Oct 2017 12:19

IAF Garuds were operating with the Army for operational experience
The encounter occurred in the Hajin area of Bandipora in Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday morning. Two Indian Air Force Garud commandos were killed in the encounter and two terrorists have also been shot dead. The Garud personnel were operating with the army for operational experience.


and this took place
"Terrorists opened fire on a joint party of 13 RR of army and SOG of Jammu and Kashmir police laying siege to Rakh (Paribal) area of Hajin Wednesday morning following inputs about the presence of about eight terrorists in the area," defence spokesperson, based in Srinagar, told The Times of India.

"As the forces were closing in, the hiding terrorists fired upon them around 5 am, resulting in injuries to jawans. Two Garud personnel were martyred in the action." Two army jawans were also injured in the encounter and shifted to 92 base hospital for further treatment, The Indian Expressquoted Director General of Press Information Bureau, KS Dhatwalia, as saying.


http://www.firstpost.com/india/encounte ... 30607.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Oct 2017 13:10

sum wrote:Were they the 2 men killed in the encounter?


No. (dont think so) picture of Garuds form the Encounter. Identities no known.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 11 Oct 2017 17:47

It was a three man team with one injured and two martyred, sad day. This points out to tactical mistake in positioning in cordon and search, this guys needs change in tactics to be good scouts

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2017 05:04

Here’s IAF Garud commando Sgt Milind Kishor Khairnar in battle gear. May his family in Nashik find the strength.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2017 05:11

Garud commandoes take first casualties after secretly operating in J&K for 12 years
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/10/g ... lties.html

Modelled on Israeli Shaldag, Garuds earn combat experience in Kashmir --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaldag_Unit

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 12 Oct 2017 13:11

krishna_krishna wrote:It was a three man team with one injured and two martyred, sad day. This points out to tactical mistake in positioning in cordon and search, this guys needs change in tactics to be good scouts


Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 12 Oct 2017 16:09

One setback and armchair experts are raising aspersions on tactics and capabilities.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 12 Oct 2017 17:10

rkhanna wrote: Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.


Garuds were with the Army for live situational training. They came in August and this is the first batch. Idea to embedded Garud Commandoes was aimed to mould them into a well-knit fighting force capable of taking on terrorists,” said a defence official.

From here:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 71290.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 12 Oct 2017 17:18

Ajai Shukla claims they are around since 2005 and have even 2 HM commanders as kills in encounters

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 13 Oct 2017 10:45

sum wrote:Ajai Shukla claims they are around since 2005 and have even 2 HM commanders as kills in encounters


Ajai Shukla is right and wrong. They have been since 2005 for protection of capital assets. Their Involvement in COIN is more recent.

Secondly - Garuds are not "Training" with army soldiers. While our press seems to have found a new word here the real word you are looking for is embedded with Army Soldiers. They have been embedded for a while now. with 9 Para and 31RR . And for the rest of time they will continue to be embedded only. Unlike the Paras and even the MARCOS their deployment teams are smaller and their tasking more specific.

They have undergone a LONG immersion program and if it werent for the deaths you would not have heard about them.

And sorry no matter what IEx or any other newspaper is saying this WAS NOT THEIR FIRST OP in J&K.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 13 Oct 2017 10:46

krishna_krishna wrote:
rkhanna wrote: Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.


Garuds were with the Army for live situational training. They came in August and this is the first batch. Idea to embedded Garud Commandoes was aimed to mould them into a well-knit fighting force capable of taking on terrorists,” said a defence official.

From here:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 71290.html


yea no. This "defense official" is not correct.

krishna_krishna
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 15 Oct 2017 07:53

rkhanna wrote:yea no. This "defense official" is not correct.


Here is another source :
http://kashmirlife.net/iaf-commandos-ki ... my-153176/

"The six-month training for these two squads started in August, which included two-weeks of pre-induction training at Corps Battle School, Indian Express reported.

The two squads were then attached with the Rashtriya Rifles in northern Kashmir. One of the teams, which is with 13 Rashtriya Rifles battalion at Hajin, was involved in Wednesday’s operation.

The two squads currently operating with the Army in Kashmir are the first lot of Garuds undergoing this on-the-job training. This will be followed by the next batch of Garuds who will have a two-week overlap in the operational area with the current lot early next year.

The Garud force was established in September 2004 on the model of Israeli air force Special Forces Unit 5101 or Shaldag."

Do you have any other Open source info that prove that was not the case ?

I do not want to go into match with you about when Garuds started operating in the valley (they were much early however only for base defense), Sad to see two chaps loose their life (irrespective of army/navy/AF or what regiments/squadron they belong to) especially when they are part of special forces, there has to be discussion on what went wrong.

All I am trying to say is that from information available there was something wrong with combat and search op these chaps were part of.

Added Later: That Shuklow article about Garud operating in valley since '05 is funny (may be part of track thoo kebabs and scotch his literary skills are down the drain to level of DDM's), To say they were doing such ops since 2005 is laughable because till 2009-10 they were not even operational ready.They were undergoing a lot of training in this period and many of them were not good enough who subsequently got phased out.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2017 11:53

So it is rkhanna vs the DDM...

Also why should we discuss and pass commentary on what went wrong - knowing full well we do not have the facts and never will and really do not need to know!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2017 11:56

Btw what weapon is Sgt Khairnar holding?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby wig » 18 Oct 2017 09:28

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/garu ... 70825.html

the bullet proof helmet used by the IAF Garud apparently did not perform as expected against AK 47 bullets
Two AK-47 bullets fired by the terrorists pierced the bulletproof helmet worn by Sergeant Milind during the fierce encounter where the attackers were trying to escape spraying bullets at the cordon laid down by the Garuds and 13 Rashtriya Rifles,"


excerpts

The helmets have to be equipped with other tools such as night-vision devices during operations and cannot be made very heavy. This may be a reason that's making them vulnerable to bullets fired at a particular range and angle," they said.
Security personnel who operated with the Garud special forces in the Rakh-e-Hajin village said the bullet piercing marks on the helmets could be seen clearly after the bodies of the two soldiers were recovered following the operation

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 18 Oct 2017 13:25

^^
Misleading article. I don't know which helmet Garuds use. Perhaps OR-201. That certainly isn't designed to protect against 7.62mm round. In fact, no modern helmet is designed to protect against even 5.56mm NATO round. Patka had that level of protection in its front and sides but then it was too heavy.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 18 Oct 2017 14:08

wig wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/garud-force-helmet-rashtirya-rifle-kashmir-ak-47-indian-army/1/1070825.html

the bullet proof helmet used by the IAF Garud apparently did not perform as expected against AK 47 bullets


The helmet performed as expected unless mfr claimed that it can stop an AK round.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gagan » 18 Oct 2017 19:34

Rakesh wrote:Here’s IAF Garud commando Sgt Milind Kishor Khairnar in battle gear. May his family in Nashik find the strength.

OFB Ghatak
Image

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 18 Oct 2017 20:49

AK upgraded by FAB defence Israel.

Gagan wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Here’s IAF Garud commando Sgt Milind Kishor Khairnar in battle gear. May his family in Nashik find the strength.

OFB Ghatak

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 13 Nov 2017 18:58

SFF Tibetan trooper killed in paradrop accident at ARC base in Odisha:
[url="http://thestrategictimes.com/special-frontier-force-soldiers-goes-missing"]SFF trooper killed[/url]

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gagan » 14 Nov 2017 09:11

^^^Corrected url
SFF trooper killed
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 15 Nov 2017 12:05

Garuds in Israel - cross training with Unit 669

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Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sohamn » 16 Nov 2017 01:42

Gaur wrote:^^
Misleading article. I don't know which helmet Garuds use. Perhaps OR-201. That certainly isn't designed to protect against 7.62mm round. In fact, no modern helmet is designed to protect against even 5.56mm NATO round. Patka had that level of protection in its front and sides but then it was too heavy.


That is not true, there are some modem helmets that protect against regular 7.62x39 lead rounds but most helmets can't stop a steel core or copper jacket rounds at close range. A thick Kevlar helmet will stop a lead AK or 5.56 round fired at a distance, but for anything more you require ceramic or hardened steel which makes an helmet very heavy.
Last edited by sohamn on 16 Nov 2017 02:01, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sohamn » 16 Nov 2017 02:00

sohamn wrote:
Gaur wrote:^^
Misleading article. I don't know which helmet Garuds use. Perhaps OR-201. That certainly isn't designed to protect against 7.62mm round. In fact, no modern helmet is designed to protect against even 5.56mm NATO round. Patka had that level of protection in its front and sides but then it was too heavy.


That is not true, there are some modem helmets that protect against regular 7.62x39 lead rounds but most helmets can't stop a steel core or copper jacket rounds at close range. A thick Kevlar helmet will stop a lead AK or 5.56 round fired at a distance, but for anything more you require ceramic or hardened steel which makes an helmet very heavy.


Ref: https://www.geek.com/gadgets/advanced-c ... t-1536798/

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby srai » 16 Nov 2017 05:13

rkhanna wrote:Garuds in Israel - cross training with Unit 669
...
Image

To me, the rank patch seems to be too visible in that camo. Remember in Sri Lanka in the initial phases, the IA officers wore highly visible rank patches and they suffered heavy casualties in the hands of LTTE snipers.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 16 Nov 2017 10:13

sohamn wrote:
sohamn wrote:
That is not true, there are some modem helmets that protect against regular 7.62x39 lead rounds but most helmets can't stop a steel core or copper jacket rounds at close range. A thick Kevlar helmet will stop a lead AK or 5.56 round fired at a distance, but for anything more you require ceramic or hardened steel which makes an helmet very heavy.


Ref: https://www.geek.com/gadgets/advanced-c ... t-1536798/

Hi SHohamn. A quote from provided link

A comparison of the M14 and the AK-47 performed by the United States Army shows that the AK-47 can penetrate helmets within a range of 400 meters, whereas it most likely won’t from 400 to 600 meters away.


400 m is hardly a short distance. It is AKM's effective range and most soldier's wont be able to shoot beyond that. If ACH can't even protect that that range, it cannot be stated to provide protection against 7.62*39 round.

But you are right to state that such protection would require ceramic and/or hardened steel which will make the helmet too heavy (case in point patka).


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