Discussion on Indian Special Forces

[Marut]

sum,

It is an open article, no subscription required.

Main points:
1. India has some capabilities to prosecute action against Pak in Pak, but lacks the political will.
2. Political class is risk-averse, hence the current limited capabilities make it further more circumspect to think of hot pursuit.
3. India needs to beef up its intelligence and operational capabilities in foreign lands significantly. Current capabilities very inadequate to pull ops on the scale of geronimo.
4. The increase in capability will give political class some assurance on success of ops, hopefully making them more willing.
5. This increased willingness will,hopefully, deter any potential mischief from Pak and others and if they still do, then we can atleast strike and not just blabber & bluster our way out.

[sum]

Ok, i know that talk of SG etc is very hush -hush in BR, esp when Surya-ullah is watching, but couldn't resist posting what i found on another forum( not a Paki one but generic SF forum: Clicky). The info seems to be from a (ex-) BRFite(??) since he uses DDM etc:

You guess is as good as mine. 2600 Men were selected from the Elite Units around India and sent to Israel for "Specialized Training". Around 2 years ago Frontline Mag carried an article on 3 Mysterious Units (Unit I, II, III). All we know is that they have an Offensive NEST Capability. They are being trained to take out Nuclear Missles and Installations in times of War.

Half of those men went to the Army SF ( newly raised 2nd SF if i am correct). The other Half became UNIT I,II,III. What these guys do ..no clue. Where they operate, no clue. Your guess is as good as mine.

Unit I,II,III is as Secretive as Establishment 22 (Est 22 is the Special Group of the SFF)- Elite within the Elite you could say.

Unit I, II, III ??

The Picture with Think Special,Act Special, Be Special is from the Website of a Dead Special Forces Operator (Tribute). The Unit in the picture is from the Special Group of the 9th SF (Para). They are not NSG. The Special Group of the Army SF(Para) are the Elite within the Elite. The SFF also has its own Special Group. These boys handle most of the Black Bag operations.

2 SGs in IA? one of 9-SF( which is called "elite of elite") and one of SFF??

[Gaur]

Mission Army Final Episode (10): Parachute Regiment.



Footage mostly shows Para Airbourne and not much of Para SF. Even so, a "Badass" Episode by any standards. The Paratroopers certainly walk with some swagger and it totally suits them.

[Gaur]

sum,
The post that you are referring to looks very dodgy to say the least. First of all, Est 22 is not "the special group of SFF". Est 22 is SFF.
Secondly, IA soldiers going to IDF for training? That looks dodgy. I say this because the IDF thing is a really old rumour. I think I had even once read somewhere that IA takes CI training from Israel!

[Surya]

Idiots are out in full bloom


why stop at 2500 odd - make it a division sent to Israel

In a small country like israel where do you think you will stuff 2500 soldiers ???

and seriously - which manager here will train all his people at the training site??

the least we in BRF should do is to ignore such nonsense

[Marut]

Surya, you got mail.

[Rakesh]

In a small country like israel where do you think you will stuff 2500 soldiers ??

In Palestine Just Kidding!

[sum]

^^ Marut-ji,
Did you receive your copy of the SF book you ordered? Was just waiting for a last ditch attempt at procuring one by "other means" and if it fails, am planning to order via the same Lancer website. Hope that it is reliable!!

Finally got the book 2 days back and started poring through it...

The common thread so far in the reading done is the woeful state of our SF which are apparently not even trained for anything beyond "super-infantry" roles. Even the SG comes in for blasting( by ex-SF generals and not arm-chair warriors) saying that they neither have good leadership nor good training ( though they have superb equipment and all possible help from IB, RAW and ARC).

Also, one of the generals mentions that the SFF remains a SF only in name and can more correctly be called "well hardened mountain warrior" battalion than a SF. Claims that SFF has not been used for even a single "black bag" op till now.

Also, found BR turn up in one or 2 of the references of the generals in their papers..

All in all, very glum reading till now in a Indian context. Hope good things are hidden away in coming pages which i haven't read yet.

[Gaur]

^^
Which book are you referring to? Is it the one by Lt. Gen. Vijay Oberoi?

[sum]

Gaur-ji,

Am referring to "Special Forces: Doctrine, Structures & Employment Across The Spectrum of Conflict in the Indian Context", the collection of SF related papers by lots of serving and ex-IA, babus and journos

[Gaur]

^^
Thanks. I have heard a lot about this book (recently by Ashutosh Malik and rohitvats). I plan to buy this book the next time I have some leisure time.

[Marut]

Finally got the book 2 days back and started poring through it...

The common thread so far in the reading done is the woeful state of our SF which are apparently not even trained for anything beyond "super-infantry" roles. Even the SG comes in for blasting( by ex-SF generals and not arm-chair warriors) saying that they neither have good leadership nor good training ( though they have superb equipment and all possible help from IB, RAW and ARC).

Also, one of the generals mentions that the SFF remains a SF only in name and can more correctly be called "well hardened mountain warrior" battalion than a SF. Claims that SFF has not been used for even a single "black bag" op till now.

Also, found BR turn up in one or 2 of the references of the generals in their papers..

All in all, very glum reading till now in a Indian context. Hope good things are hidden away in coming pages which i haven't read yet.

That's what I've read so far too. But remember that this seminar was in November 2004 and the papers presented would have been written a few months prior. While the situation potrayed may be true then, things have definitely changed for the better since. Also when things are gonna be published, some info will be 'outdated'

[rohitvats]

^^^And they are not going to discuss and publish all that transpires.

[sum]

^^ Thats true... the first sentence in the forward mentions about following 'Chatham house rules". Doubt that they would have printed out the juicy stuff . ( recall reading suggestion of carving out a "true black bag" Delta force like org from within SG since SG has far outlived its use and isn't good enough for "special ops", as per one ex-general. Wonder if something like that was implemented later.).

Lets see if the message of gloom and doom in the 2004 edition is replaced by something more "cheerful" when the next edition( hopefully 2011) comes up...

[Marut]

Invariably, all seminars and panel discussions in matters of national security are held under Chatham House rules. Basically no direct reference to any info or person part of the discussion, when you make/publish statements based on it.

[rohitvats]

Lot of views are quite nonsense which simply want to ape the western structure of Tier I and Tier II SF units along with this and that.

What is truly needed is political will and better understanding within IA of term SF. Same men with better weapon system and proper environment to nurture SpecOps culture can do the job. No need to have ten different arms doing ten different things. Keep the whole damn thing simple. SAS is the best example. Uncle, as usual, tends to do everything on a grand scale. SG and Para(SF) + MARCOS is good enough. What one needs is better leadership and proper vision. Just by raising some other super-duper unit(s), one will not solve structural drawbacks in SF environment in India. What will thing unit achieve which others cannot (for example, say SG)? Will then men and material be different from what we have today? And in case it is, why not mould SG and Para(SF)+MARCOS along similar lines?

There is lot of hot air passed in that book as analysis - especially, the ones which reccomend aping the west in toto.

[suryag]

^^^ Great sir I totally believe what you are prescribing is right and the others are wrong. The fact that it is by people in the know or it is compiled by a Lt.Gen is a second matter because in armchair analysis the farther you are from serving the better it is. Rather than indulging in rhetoric and calling something hot air it would be nice if you could take up one paper and tell us why it wouldnt work in the context of India. It is also very interesting to see that a person who gets all worked up even on a perceived slight to the IA says and i quote "What is truly needed is political will and better understanding within IA of term SF" Are you kidding when you say that you understand SF or its uses better than IA?

[rohitvats]

^^^ Great sir I totally believe what you are prescribing is right and the others are wrong. The fact that it is by people in the know or it is compiled by a Lt.Gen is a second matter because in armchair analysis the farther you are from serving the better it is. Rather than indulging in rhetoric and calling something hot air it would be nice if you could take up one paper and tell us why it wouldnt work in the context of India. It is also very interesting to see that a person who gets all worked up even on a perceived slight to the IA says and i quote "What is truly needed is political will and better understanding within IA of term SF" Are you kidding when you say that you understand SF or its uses better than IA?

How old are you to have written the above nonsense?

[Gaur]

^^^ Great sir I totally believe what you are prescribing is right and the others are wrong. The fact that it is by people in the know or it is compiled by a Lt.Gen is a second matter because in armchair analysis the farther you are from serving the better it is. Rather than indulging in rhetoric and calling something hot air it would be nice if you could take up one paper and tell us why it wouldnt work in the context of India. It is also very interesting to see that a person who gets all worked up even on a perceived slight to the IA says and i quote "What is truly needed is political will and better understanding within IA of term SF" Are you kidding when you say that you understand SF or its uses better than IA?

[suryag]

There is no need to get personal over here, my age is totally irrelevant, if you have certain insight about what type of structural reforms are needed put it here. No need to hyperventilate. Mods please take note of the ad hominem attacks.

[Marut]

suryag,
Rohit has just given his views on how he wishes the SF to be organized for better deployment and utilization of resources. If you have problems with that, then counter it your own views on why the present state is better or the ones being proposed by the authors is good enough. This assumes that you have read the book which is being referred to here.

Btw his views are not something out of the ordinary. It has been the lament in this thread and many commentators that we lack a vision for SF. The knee jerk reaction to any incident or threat is to raise a batch of commandos. This applies to the military, paramilitary and central & state police forces. We have the quantity but the quality and clarity of their tasks are suspect. Not to say that our SF shaps are bumbling idiots, but that they can be better employed if only the decision makers, civil & military, understand their capabilities and exploit it shrewdly. This is where the demand for Joint SF command emanates from. It will be instructive to read up the previous pages of this thread as well as some of the articles and op-eds in open source to understand the point we are debating here.

[rohitvats]

There is no need to get personal over here, my age is totally irrelevant, if you have certain insight about what type of structural reforms are needed put it here. No need to hyperventilate. Mods please take note of the ad hominem attacks.

Ad hominem attacks? You give yourself too much importance.

And BTW, I have read that book; please buy the book, read it and then come and debate with me. And you might be interested to know that not all participants are ex-Services (and not all ex-Services people are ex-SF); some were civilians too - one of them happens to be Saikat Datta.

Here is what he has written in recent article in Outlook.http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?271657

Posting in full - take a deep breath and read this calmy. It captures all that is wrong with SF environment with-in Indian Defence and Political establishment.

Almost 24 years ago, two Indian naval officers were quietly sent off to the United States to attend a training course that few really knew much about. These two officers, Lt. Arvind Singh and Lt Shamsher Singh Deopa, were young naval officers who had never done anything like the course they were about to attend.

The same course they attended would eventually produce the men who slipped into Abbottabad, Pakistan in the early hours of May 2 to neutralise Osama bin Laden. Both Singh and Deopa were the first ever Indian officers to attend the Navy S.E.A.L.S course, the toughest few weeks of physical and psychological torture created to produce some of the best Special Forces in the world.

In the weeks that followed, both naval officers did India proud and Singh emerged on the top of his course. On their return to India, Singh and Deopa became part of a top secret project that had been envisaged by a few naval officers. Both men were to be the nucleus around which the Indian Marine Special Forces (IMSF) would be built and give India’s navy the same edge that the Navy S.E.A.L.S had.

In the next few years the IMSF would see action all over the Jaffna peninsula as the IPKF battled the LTTE in Sri Lanka. The first time the IMSF would see action would be a hazardous operation to blow up the Jaffna jetty. This was a crucial link to the LTTE’s suicide boats that was threatening the IPKF’s naval supply ships as well as the Sri Lankan navy. India’s naval operations decided to use the first batch of the IMSF to put together a team that would take out the jetty.

Naturally, the man they chose to lead the operation was Lt Arvind Singh. In the late hours of a summer night, Singh and his men slipped off an Indian naval ship and began to swim towards their objective a good 10-12 km away. Carrying their weapons and demolitions, the team slipped into the Jaffna harbour and laid their charges. As soon as the jetty blew up, the LTTE immediately detected the IMSF team and began to harass them with withering fire. Singh and his men returned the fire and began their long swim back to their ship. They returned without any casualties and, a year later, Singh would walk up the steps of Rashtrapati Bhawan to receive his Maha Vir Chakra.

Singh would participate in many more operations including a major rescue of Sri Lankan and IPKF forces held hostage in the Jaffna fort by the LTTE. Singh and his Sri Lankan counterparts parachuted into the fort and brought out the troops who had been held hostage for weeks. Years after the IPKF withdrew from the Sri Lanka, the IMSF would return to the Island nation for a few more operations that will always remain under wraps. Renamed as the MARCOS (Marine Commandos) they would continue to play a stellar role in the anti-piracy operations undertaken by the Indian Navy in recent months.

Unfortunately, while the men who served in these elite units were some of the finest, they continued to remain neglected by a poor military and political leadership that had little appreciation for their strategic reach.

The operation to capture Osama has amplified the strategic reach that Special Forces (SF) can give to a state facing myriad challenges. Sadly, while India’s SF, was patterned on the best in the world, have withered away since then. Take the Indian Army’s SF battalions. Created in 1968, the 9th and the 19th battalions of the Parachute Regiment underwent training designed by a young army captain from Pune who had been sent to the U.S Special Forces training school. Both battalions would cover themselves with glory in the 1971 war.

A team from 9 Para (SF) would cross the line of control to raid a major Pakistani artillery gun position in Mandhol. The team returned after destroying all the guns and with just two minor casualties. In the scorching deserts of Rajathsan, a young prince from Jaipur led a team of 10 Para (SF) to raid the Pakistani town of Chachro in Sind. Legend has it that when Bhawani Singh was returning with his raiders, the Indian BSF opened fire on them thinking they were Pakistanis! No one could believe that an Indian army team could slip across the international border, hit a major town and return back to base successfully.

Since then, the Indian SF has seen monumental neglect at the hands of hostile military leaders and ignorant political masters. While the U.S saw the consolidation of all its Special Forces under one command, India went in the opposite direction. In 1987-88 a young Colonel R K Nanavatty was part of a study that would make an attempt to upgrade the strategic capabilities of our SF. A comprehensive study recommended that the SF be separated from the Parachute regiment and have a home and hearth of its own. (he has a paper on the subject in the book)

In 1994 this was done and a new Special Forces Regiment, headquartered in the hilly town of Nahan, Himachal Pradesh was created. Unfortunately for the youngest regiment of the Indian Army, the death of the then army chief, Gen B C Joshi proved to be a death blow. Gen Shankar Roychowdhury took over and under pressure from retired generals of the Parachute Regiment, he promptly disbanded the Special Forces regiment.

Since then, the Indian SF has been put through a series of blunders. At one point, while there was a severe lack of resources to modernise the SF, army headquarters began an ill-advised expansion. More battalions were converted into an SF role, but in reality they had no equipment, training and therefore, no special capabilities. Many within the SF community opposed this tooth and nail but failed to anticipate the political machinations of a vested few. In the end, the expansion took place and we continue to pay for this mammoth blunder even today.

If that was not bad enough, India’s military and political masters have steadfastly refused to create a Special Operations Command. So while the army has its SF component, the IAF, Navy, Cabinet Secretariat and the home ministry have their own. No one speaks to the other, everyone buys equipment in complete isolation, and there are no joint doctrines, trainings or exercises. As a result India’s strategic use of SF remains an incoherent mess.

So if we need to go after our enemies, or protect our growing energy needs, or address an out-of-area contingency far away from our territorial boundaries, we simply don’t have the wherewithal. If the U.S could fly several thousand miles into Abbottabad to capture and neutralise a declared enemy of the state, it is because they began work over 30 years ago. Similar successes have been notched up by the British Special Air Services (SAS), as they became a major tool for British foreign policy. During every major crisis that the U.K faces, one lowly Brigadier gets to sit next to the British Prime Minister as he consults his crisis management group. A badge worn by the Brigadier on his uniform with the words “Who Dares Wins” is the only indication that he belongs to the legendary SAS.

In India, only powerful IAS bureaucrats and politicians get to sit in the crisis management group. They are supposed to mull and decide over the options that can be exercised when an enemy of the state shows hostile intent. Therein hangs a tragic tale of a strategic blunder.

[suryag]

Marut ji Sir i follow and respect his views not only this thread but other threads too. I wanted him to give some arguments for/against it. It is not right to diss a whole book and that too when it is compiled by a Lt.Gen

[Marut]

^if you read the book you will understand what is being dissed. Compilation by Lt. Gen doesn't give any immunity from criticism
He has already given his views on what is wrong with the opinion papers in the book. I am reading through it and can tell it is a good resource for Indian SF related info but agree with him on joint doctrine and command.

[suryag]

Thats what i am asking for, I havent read the book what i(or others like me who cant read the book) want is what is the concept discussed in a paper and what are the shortcomings.

[rohitvats]

Thats what i am asking for, I havent read the book what i(or others like me who cant read the book) want is what is the concept discussed in a paper and what are the shortcomings.

So, you've not read the book, are not aware about its structure, yet, choose to write what you did? Doesn't sit well with your stated claim of wanting to understand the gist of the book.

And btw, it is a compilation of views of different people on the subject matter. As I said earlier, one of the authors is Saikat Datta (whose article I've linked). While that article is great, I don't really agree with his proposal of having Tier I and Tier II SF units like US. You can read more about tiered approach here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Op ... ier_System

We don't need more SF units - we need better employment of existing assets.

[Gaur]

Marut ji Sir i follow and respect his views not only this thread but other threads too. I wanted him to give some arguments for/against it. It is not right to diss a whole book and that too when it is compiled by a Lt.Gen

Suryag bhai,
If your exception is how can one diss a compilation by a Lt.Gen, then perhaps you would be interested in a magazine article posted just a few pages back. It is also by a Lt Gen. In fact, the author is Lt Gen Katoch who is an ex Para SF.
Lt Gen Katoch had written the exactly what rohitvats was trying to say in a concise manner. And since he was in service only a short while back, he should be most up to date in this matter.

I have not read the book under debate, so I will not attempt to say anything about that. But what rohitvats wrote was nothing to get all bothered about. As Marut has already said, this POV has been discussed on numerous occasions before. So, people are bound to get a little peeved if you just jump in and start dishing out sarcastic comments without even bothering to look at the last few pages.

[KiranM]

While we don't need separate Tier1 and Tier2 SF units, we can pool a Joint Special Operations Group (JSOG) by merging IA's SG with IN MARCOs QRT. The personnel rotating in and out like SAS from its parent SF units. Attached to this should be special aviation squadrons (fixed wings and rotary) for transport, ISR, support, etc. The personnel of these aviation units should be Garud qualified to have an idea of SF and SOF abilities.
JSOG should train round the year for black bag and contingency oeprations on anywhere, anyhow, anytime basis.

From the parent Army SF, we should have Field Special Operations Group (FSOG), acclimatized and trained for a specific Area/ command. Doesnt mean one particular unit should specialize for that Command. Units should be rotated around periodically.

The same for parent IN MARCOs, tailored along the FSOG concept for being part of Naval Task Forces, Western/ Eastern Command or FORTAN command fleet assets.

Then we have the GARUDs qualified for pilot SAR.

The remaining areas of SF and SOF capabilities to be addressed once the main areas achieve maturity and fine tune what is good and bad for our environment.

Initially JSOG should be under Integrated Defense Staff. Over time, JSOG should become the nucleus for a Special Forces Command.

Just some of my ramblings. Above points may not hold water.

[Marut]

Just to give an idea of how old about SF joint doctrine and separate command is, see the link below:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 56#p297756

If anyone is interested, then please read through posts from the first page of this thread to get an idea of how the discussion on Indian SF has evolved here over time. It starts from 2006 btw..yes five years worth of data! I just skimmed through some of them now find that not much has changed in terms of org issues although some newer, better equipment has arrived.

[Surya]

There are Generals of all types

some clueless and full of bluster who the IA had the misfortune of having in its higher ranks and some who are the sharpest minds and have actually been in the frontlines and not sand model experts.

Katoch belongs to the latter category so I would read his articles with more care.


There have a been a number of people who have advocated policies for developing and enhancing the SF to a more true SF model

But Army HQ is going to listen to the Para bosses who head the SF and they will end up collecting dust (albeit with some minor tweaks here and there).

Also Army HQ itself has been headed by men of less than sterling qualities.

One can only wish for a COAS who would push through an Arjun, a 155 mm system, a SF regiment and etc etc

[merlin]

Add vastly increased mechanization to the above list

[Jaeger]

^^amen to that.

[Raja Bose]

While we don't need separate Tier1 and Tier2 SF units, we can pool a Joint Special Operations Group (JSOG) by merging IA's SG with IN MARCOs QRT. The personnel rotating in and out like SAS from its parent SF units. Attached to this should be special aviation squadrons (fixed wings and rotary) for transport, ISR, support, etc. The personnel of these aviation units should be Garud qualified to have an idea of SF and SOF abilities.
JSOG should train round the year for black bag and contingency oeprations on anywhere, anyhow, anytime basis.

This para made no sense - was it written by an Yum Bee Aye?

(just pulling your leg re. the Yum Bee Aye part )

You bet Katoch knows his stuff - hearing of his experiences from Bluestar still gives me shivers.

[rohitvats]

^^^My dad met him in Military hospital in Jalandhar after the assault (where he was admitted). Infact, a plan to attack him in Military hospital was foiled in the intial stages itself and security beefed up.

[KiranM]

While we don't need separate Tier1 and Tier2 SF units, we can pool a Joint Special Operations Group (JSOG) by merging IA's SG with IN MARCOs QRT. The personnel rotating in and out like SAS from its parent SF units. Attached to this should be special aviation squadrons (fixed wings and rotary) for transport, ISR, support, etc. The personnel of these aviation units should be Garud qualified to have an idea of SF and SOF abilities.
JSOG should train round the year for black bag and contingency oeprations on anywhere, anyhow, anytime basis.

This para made no sense - was it written by an Yum Bee Aye?

(just pulling your leg re. the Yum Bee Aye part )

You bet Katoch knows his stuff - hearing of his experiences from Bluestar still gives me shivers.

There is no Bee in my brain sir. Looks like I failed to put across clearly what I thought. Since Special Group (who have many Combat diver qualified personnel) and MARCOs Quick Reaction Team members (who also train to operate much inland) are the cream of the cream, I feel there is a lot of overlap between them. This overlap can be developed into a true joint mechanism that will also serve as a sounding board for Dos and Donts of establishing an Indian Joint Special Forces Command.

[rasiklal]

People may disagree with me here but I dont think LiveFist did the right thing by releasing that pictorial depiction of how Indian Spec-ops would take out D...

The Indian armed forces would never plan such a stupid operation. The joke is on the journalist who conjured this scenario.

[Surya]

Its not even conjured up

Its mostly a copy of a scenario from a novel although the ingress was different

[Viv S]

Has this been posted before?






Watch it in HD on youtube.


The US SF guy's comment is particularly insightful - "There's mindset out there that says that you put on $2 worth of velcro, do a couple of tours of Iraq and Afghanistan and all of a sudden you've reached the level of 'War God' and you can do no wrong. Within the first three days we were learning tactics that I would never have thought of, and in some ways they were better than ours. You can pull from that by having an open mind."

[Raja Bose]

^^I remember a comment made by a grunt from one of the US Army units which came to CIJWS for joint training. The clueless kid made a pompous statement on the lines of "The Indians can now get exposure to this new type of warfare called counter insurgency that we have been fighting in AfPak/Eye-rak and they can also learn from us how to fight in these situations." without realizing that the IA has been doing COIN and setup the CIJWS before he was born.

That being said, such opportunities allow both sides to learn a lot given the different ways they operate and the different situations/experiences they might have.

[Gaur]

^^I remember a comment made by a grunt from one of the US Army units which came to CIJWS for joint training. The clueless kid made a pompous statement on the lines of "The Indians can now get exposure to this new type of warfare called counter insurgency that we have been fighting in AfPak/Eye-rak and they can also learn from us how to fight in these situations." without realizing that the IA has been doing COIN and setup the CIJWS before he was born.

Really? This new type of warfare that they have been fighting!
This made me remember the following video. Check out the US soldier's remark from 0:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3BcSQuNxhk