Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Nov 2009 12:38

AdityaM wrote:Some of dads friends (who became some of the senior commanders in the army ) had mentioned that the army was concerned about the charged atmosphere around the time, and many attrocities that they uncovered were kept hidden so as not to create any further bad blood.
The army had found many naked women inside 'the temple', who had been violated by the terrorsists. There were many dead ones too whose bodies were lying around because the terrorists could not dispose them off.

I wish all this info was brought into public domain, so that the focus could be put on the real culprits, instead bad mouthing the army.
Excuse my naivete here, but i really don't understand the point in keeping these things hidden when the Operation was being called all sorts of things, including a failure and a genocide. The hullabaloo would have died down to an extent if the terrorists' misdeeds were exposed then and there.

On the other hand, if the bodies etc were indeed uncovered, wouldn't the army be accused of all the wrongdoings if the the terrorists were not implicated? Were we worrying about the shadow being crooked when one is standing straight?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Nov 2009 15:45

X-posted from Military pics thread: viewtopic.php?p=769733#p769733

Refer the pic above ^^^

I have a question for the Gurus here.
I saw on TV today, NSG guards protecting Mulayam Yadav. They had their MP5 barrels pointing skywards. Whereas in the above pic, you have armed personnel, with the same gun, pointing downwards.

What is correct? What the logic behind the two different stances?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby nainanmark » 10 Nov 2009 16:12

Dmurphy wrote:X-posted from Military pics thread: viewtopic.php?p=769733#p769733

Refer the pic above ^^^

I have a question for the Gurus here.
I saw on TV today, NSG guards protecting Mulayam Yadav. They had their MP5 barrels pointing skywards. Whereas in the above pic, you have armed personnel, with the same gun, pointing downwards.

What is correct? What the logic behind the two different stances?


I am not a guru but standard gun discipline is that the gun has to be pointed beyond 45 degrees from the horizontal unless there is an intention to shoot. Hence both stances are correct. This is no ensure there is no danger of causalities due to accidental discharge.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby KiranM » 10 Nov 2009 21:26

^^^ My 2 cents, it makes more sense to point downwards especially in Close Quarters. Imagine Mulayam ji standing in close proximity. An accidental discharge to his head is more 'problematic' than one to his leg.

Regards,
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sanju » 11 Nov 2009 03:38

Dmurphy wrote:Excuse my naivete here, but i really don't understand the point in keeping these things hidden when the Operation was being called all sorts of things, including a failure and a genocide. The hullabaloo would have died down to an extent if the terrorists' misdeeds were exposed then and there.

On the other hand, if the bodies etc were indeed uncovered, wouldn't the army be accused of all the wrongdoings if the the terrorists were not implicated? Were we worrying about the shadow being crooked when one is standing straight?


Dmurphy,

Since this is OT for this thread, I have replied in the Indian Army History Thread

Cheers,
S

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 11 Nov 2009 06:15

Sanju wrote:Raja,

IIRC correctly, his Brigade was split into 3, with one of the units the 26 Madras led by Lt. Col. KMG Panicker went in. The 14 Mahar was sent to Patti area on the other side of Amritsar for the expected push from the Pakis. He was with the Fighting Fourteen.


Sanju, thanks for the info. Bluestar was a wake up call and tragedy in so many ways. From accounts I heard, 26 Madras faced some of the most brutal fighting inside the complex including one of their men who was taken POW and killed ruthlessly in full view by the terrorists but their discipline held and they completed their assigned tasks to the fullest - that is what the IA is made of.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Anshul » 13 Nov 2009 07:44


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rahulm » 13 Nov 2009 08:21

To a specific query on gun holding positions, it seems there is an established standard but is mostly neither practiced nor enforced leading to all manner of variations.

Same with combat uniform patterns which probably explains why we see and discuss this subject.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 13 Nov 2009 09:25

when did the IA SF / para units take to marching the iraqi republican guard way? sorry if this is already asked.

in older republic day they just used to walk by.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 13 Nov 2009 11:54

Singha wrote:when did the IA SF / para units take to marching the iraqi republican guard way? sorry if this is already asked.

in older republic day they just used to walk by.


IIRC, it was during the tenure of JJ Singh.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 13 Nov 2009 13:41

rohitvats wrote:IIRC, it was during the tenure of JJ Singh.
Did it not happen again this year? Guess they've made it a norm now. Either way, we're copying someone. First it was the British and now its the Iraqis.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Craig Alpert » 13 Nov 2009 20:46

Three CRPF personnel killed in IED blast in Orissa
The blast took place in Maoist-dominated MV-66 area, about 40 km from here, when a van carrying the CRPF personnel was on its way from Kalimela to Gompagunda probably to pick up rations, Malkangiri Superintendent of Police Satyabrata Bhoi said.
The landmine was planted at a culvert and exploded when the van passed over it, he said

Unfortunate loss of the brave souls.... TIME TO GET MRAPS or the desi versions of MPV's...for personnel movements instead of using just regular vans.. Armor is a must for personnel patrolling through these dangerous forests..

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby shiv » 13 Nov 2009 21:41

Dmurphy wrote:
rohitvats wrote:IIRC, it was during the tenure of JJ Singh.
Did it not happen again this year? Guess they've made it a norm now. Either way, we're copying someone. First it was the British and now its the Iraqis.


It's called a "double march". We used to do that in school in the 1960s so there is nothing new to copy. My school had a PT area comparable to the Maratha Light Infantry regimental center and the PT masters were ex army. One guy ex MLIR used to demand that we do one hand push ups like he did and the other guy was a sardar who had fought in Italy. A couple of Hitlers soldiers had tried to hang him with barbed wire, but he survived. No he did not try to hang us with barbed wire.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 13 Nov 2009 22:30

NSG cdos guarding CM Mayawati:

Image

Experience shows on the JCO's face .... what are those badges that the officer wears? I dont recall any Indian badge with a star:

Image

National Security Guard (NSG) commandos listen to their leader Siddharth Tomar (R) before the inauguration of NSG's Regional Hub in Mumbai on June 30, 2009. India opened its first regional unit for specialist anti-terror troops, after widespread criticism of the slow response to last year's deadly Mumbai attacks. The new hub for some 250 NSG commandos in Mumbai is the first of four to open across India. Others are planned for Kolkata, in eastern India, plus the southern cities of Chennai and Hyderabad. The NSG -- dubbed the "Black Cats" -- is modelled on Britain's elite Special Air Service (SAS) and the GSG-9, the specialist operations unit of the German police force.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Marut » 14 Nov 2009 01:56

^ adding to the gun holding stance discussion, maybe the choice of pointing the gun above or below is also dictated by the weapon itself. In the post above, the NSG commandos to Mayawati's right have two different positions for the gun. The one pointing upwards has a MP5 and the other has a AK-47/56 variant pointing down. Maybe the gun position is dictated by how fast it can be brought to bear in a situation. JM2P.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby abhishekm » 14 Nov 2009 03:31

[/quote]Did it not happen again this year? Guess they've made it a norm now. Either way, we're copying someone. First it was the British and now its the Iraqis.[/quote]


Doesn't the Pakistani SSG also march in the same fashion? I hope our march was not "inspired" by them :roll:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby shiv » 14 Nov 2009 07:04

abhishekm wrote:
Doesn't the Pakistani SSG also march in the same fashion? I hope our march was not "inspired" by them :roll:


I my personal opinion - even it it was inspired by them it doe snot matter. They did not invent it and it is standard training procedure. We are looking at men who have to compete (in a life/death battle) to show their superiority and Pakistanis have always used psy ops against Indian forces like alleging that women in BSF are provided for sexual gratification of Indian soldiers. You can be sure that Paki SSG were doing a double march to show that they are "fitter". The Indian soldiers do it to show that it's not a big deal for them. We should not make it into a big deal IMO.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rahulm » 14 Nov 2009 08:35

The MARCOS would like to train with the Israeli and other non US SF's but the political leadership is pushing US co-operation.

SAS and USN Seals come to exercise with MARCOS with formidable reputations but on the ground it seems the MARCOS hold their own and more and wonder what the fuss with these SF's is about. The USN Seals use the media very effectively and in this respect the Indian SF's can be clubbed with the SAS and Israeli's which is not altogether a bad idea.

Very few NSG exploits make it to the media. Most we have never heard of and remain classified.

In urban CQB/COIN/CT we can teach all others SF's more than a thing or 2. I suppose the Israeli's are right up there and maybe even the Sri Lankan's. Nothing beats decades of real experience.

At least 1 soldier has paid the ultimate price for holding the rifle incorrectly. That's 1 too many for an avoidable cause.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2009 09:00

some of the russian undercover units sneaking around in places like ingushetia and dagestan might be good people to have a chat with....if a covert task force under RAW is desired to take the 'war' into enemy leadership compounds and tanzeems.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rahulm » 14 Nov 2009 09:05

Sptezsnaz was also mentioned but the politico's don't seem too keen. The thinking appears to be becoming US centric.

Nuclear deal dynamics?

Its important we keep our options open at all times.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Nov 2009 09:51

Marut wrote:^ adding to the gun holding stance discussion, maybe the choice of pointing the gun above or below is also dictated by the weapon itself. In the post above, the NSG commandos to Mayawati's right have two different positions for the gun. The one pointing upwards has a MP5 and the other has a AK-47/56 variant pointing down. Maybe the gun position is dictated by how fast it can be brought to bear in a situation. JM2P.

The MP5s are held downwards here. viewtopic.php?p=769733#p769733

But I have been wondering: The MP5, when being used for personnel protection and when there is too much of crowd around, as is the case with protecting mulayam or mayawati, the guns are best held the upwards, so that its not a problem bringing them down in case they have to use it. Bringing it up during emergencies would mean brushing or poking against some of the people's bums or worse still, the person they're protecting! Just imagine if they accidentally poke their guns into maya memsaab's ###. :D

But holding the gun upwards is certainly riskier than holding them the other way, IMHO. Imagine a tall guy standing next to you. If the upwardly held gun goes off, so will the guy's head! Not so the case when held downwards. At the most, the guy next to you will get shot in leg or will never be a dad again!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Nov 2009 09:57

Aditya G wrote:Experience shows on the JCO's face .... what are those badges that the officer wears? I dont recall any Indian badge with a star:

Image

Seriously sir, with all due respect, "experience" is a word often used to euphemistically suggest "old". The guy in the pic with the MP5 hanging around his neck is old rather than experienced! He could be having grand kids going to school! What is the retirement age for an NSG commando?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 14 Nov 2009 11:22

Singha wrote:some of the russian undercover units sneaking around in places like ingushetia and dagestan might be good people to have a chat with....if a covert task force under RAW is desired to take the 'war' into enemy leadership compounds and tanzeems.

Was wondering the same....Isnt Spetsnaz also right up there with the Israelis?

Or are these also bit overrated like the Amrikis?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 14 Nov 2009 13:46

^^
I don't know much about Spetsnaz operations recently, but they were stellar in Afghanistan.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 14 Nov 2009 14:39

spetsnaz is a generic term. question is, is russia willing to open up her secretive SF's (alpha, OMON ?) for joint training. I think IA has already conducted joint training with VDV units.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 14 Nov 2009 14:56

^^
Whats so secretive about OMON?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 14 Nov 2009 16:13

Dmurphy wrote:Seriously sir, with all due respect, "experience" is a word often used to euphemistically suggest "old". The guy in the pic with the MP5 hanging around his neck is old rather than experienced! He could be having grand kids going to school! What is the retirement age for an NSG commando?


These NSG commandos are deputees from the regular Indian Army. Traditionally JCOs have held an important role and position in a battalion. Assuming NSG personnel need to be "young" to perform their task, you still need such men in the unit. But dont be fooled by his appearence, he would be fit sufficiently fit and has 15+ years of experience! I imagine a lot of it in J&K and other terrorist infested areas.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 14 Nov 2009 16:16

Hmmm reading below I wonder if Russian special forces are the best to train with...

From The Sunday Times
April 26, 2009
Russian death squads ‘pulverise’ Chechens

Elite commandos have broken their silence to reveal how they torture, execute and then blow captives to atoms to obliterate the grisly evidence

Mark Franchetti in Moscow
THE hunt for a nest of female suicide bombers in Chechnya led an elite group of Russian special forces commandos to a small village deep in the countryside. There they surrounded a modest house just before dawn to be sure of catching their quarry unawares.

When the order came to storm the single-storey property, dozens of heavily armed men in masks and camouflage uniforms - unmarked to conceal their identity - had no difficulty in overwhelming the three women inside. Their captives were driven to a military base.

The soldiers were responding to a tip-off that the eldest of the three, who was in her forties, had been indoctrinating women to sacrifice themselves in Chechnya’s ferocious war between Islamic militants and the Russians. The others captured with her were her latest recruits. One was barely 15.

“At first the older one denied everything,” said a senior special forces officer last week. “Then we roughed her up and gave her electric shocks. She provided us with good information. Once we were done with her we shot her in the head.

“We disposed of her body in a field. We placed an artillery shell between her legs and one over her chest, added several 200-gram TNT blocks and blew her to smithereens. The trick is to make sure absolutely nothing is left. No body, no proof, no problem.” The technique was known as pulverisation.

The young recruits were taken away by another unit for further interrogation before they, too, were executed.

The account is one of a series given to The Sunday Times by two special forces officers who fought the militants in Chechnya over a period of 10 years. Their testimony, the first of its kind to a foreign journalist, provides startling insights into the operation of secret Russian death squads during one of the most brutal conflicts since the second world war.

The men, decorated veterans of more than 40 tours of duty in Chechnya, said not only suspected rebels but also people close to them were systematically tracked, abducted, tortured and killed. Intelligence was often extracted by breaking their limbs with a hammer, administering electric shocks and forcing men to perform sexual acts on each other. The bodies were either buried in unmarked pits or pulverised.

Far from being the work of a few ruthless mavericks, such methods were widely used among special forces, the men said. They were backed by their superiors on the understanding that operations were to be carried out covertly and that any officers who were caught risked prosecution: the Russian government publicly condemns torture and extrajudicial killings and denies that its army committed war crimes in Chechnya.

In practice, said Andrei and Vladimir, the second officer, the Kremlin turned a blind eye. “Anyone in power who took the slightest interest in the war knows this was going on,” Andrei said. “Our only aim was to wipe out the terrorists.”

The two officers expressed pride in their contribution to the special forces’ “success” in containing the terrorist threat. But they spoke on condition they would not be named.

Andrei, who was badly wounded in the war, said he took part in the killing of at least 10 alleged female suicide bombers. In a separate incident he had a wounded female sniper tied up and ordered a tank to drive over her.

He also participated in one of the most brutal revenge sprees by Russian forces. Following the 2002 killings of two agents from the FSB security service and two soldiers from Russia’s equivalent of the SAS, the troops hunted down 200 Chechens said to be linked to the attacks.

In another operation, Andrei’s unit stumbled across dozens of wounded fighters in a cellar being used as a field hospital. Some were being tended by female relatives. “The fighters who were well enough to be interrogated were taken away. We executed the others, together with some of the women,” he recalled. “That’s the only way to deal with terrorists.”

Following an inconclusive war in Chechnya from 1994-6, Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader, launched a second war in 1999 and set the tone by vowing “to wipe out militants wherever they are, even in the outhouse”. More than 100,000 Chechens are thought to have died by the time the Kremlin declared earlier this month that it was over. Grozny, the capital, was all but flattened. Putin’s toughness earned him great popularity at home.

Acts of blood-curdling brutality were committed by both sides as the rebels tried to turn Chechnya into an Islamic state, often decapitating Russian prisoners. One Russian victim was filmed being mutilated with a chainsaw.

As the war raged, Chechen terrorists launched suicide attacks against civilians in the Moscow metro and at a rock festival. In 2002 a gang including 18 female suicide bombers seized more than 800 hostages in a Moscow theatre, 129 of whom died when the Russians pumped poisonous gas into the building on day three of the siege.

In their most savage act, the rebels took hundreds of school-children and their relatives hostage in Beslan. The three-day siege in 2004 ended with the deaths of 334 hostages, more than half of them children.

It was in this highly charged climate that the death squads were operating. Andrei recalled that his men had detained a suspect who had several videos of militants torturing Russian hostages. One showed him laughing as his comrades raped a 12-year-old girl and then shot off three of her fingers.

“We all went berserk after watching this,” said Andrei, who had begun to beat the suspect. “He fell to the ground. I ordered him to get up but he couldn’t because of his handcuffs. I ordered the cuffs off but something was wrong with the lock. I became angrier and ordered one of my sergeants to get them off no matter what.

“So he took an axe and chopped his arms off. The prisoner screamed in agony. Clearly it would have been impossible to interrogate him further so I shot him in the head.”

Andrei said he thought of his opponents not as human beings but as cockroaches to be squashed. He was unapologetic about acts of cruelty but said he did not condone excessive boasting among his men.

“I had a problem with one of my guys, who liked to collect ears which had been chopped off prisoners. He’d made a necklace and was very serious about taking this home. I did not like that kind of behaviour.”

The brutality continued after Moscow began to cede more control to Chechen special forces made up of former rebels who switched sides. Militias commanded by Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya’s pro-Kremlin president, are also accused of abducting, torturing and executing suspects.

Vladimir said he had established a death squad that hunted down, tortured and executed more than 16 alleged militants in 2005. The squad’s commander would log a bogus mission in a faraway location in his unit’s official register to provide an alibi. “We’d break in, take the suspect and vanish. We’d duct-tape and handcuff them. If there was resistance we’d gun down the suspect. If, in the firefight, someone else got killed then we’d plant a gun on the dead person.”

Vladimir and his men referred to their prey as “zaichik” - a term of endearment used by lovers that means “little hare”.

“Only a very small circle of my men took part in this work. Some of those we abducted were tougher than others but eventually everyone talks when you give them the right treatment.

“We used several methods. We’d beat them to a pulp with our bare hands and with sticks. One very effective method is ‘the grand piano’ - when one by one we’d smash the captive’s fingers with a hammer. It’s dirty and difficult work. You would not be human if you enjoyed it but it was the only way to get this filth to talk.”

A hammer would also be used to smash a captive’s kneecaps and militants would be forced to perform sexual acts. The scenes would occasionally be filmed and circulated among enemy combatants in psychological warfare.

“You have to be a certain kind of person to do this job - very strong,” Vladimir said. “Those who carried it out always volunteered. It would not be right to order one of your men to torture someone. It can be morally and psychologically very tough.”

Andrei added: “What mattered most was to carry out this work professionally, not to leave evidence which could be traced back to us. Our bosses knew about such methods but there was a clear understanding that we should cover our tracks. We knew we'd be hung out to dry if we got caught.

“We are not murderers. We are officers engaged in a war against brutal terrorists who will stop at nothing, not even at killing children. They are animals and the only way to deal with them is to destroy them. There is no room for legal niceties in a war like this. Only those who were there can truly understand. I have no regrets. My conscience is clear.”

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby abhishekm » 14 Nov 2009 16:17

Gaur wrote:^^
Whats so secretive about OMON?


Not sure if there's anything particularly secretive about the Russian OMON. OMON troops tend to wear masks in public but this is mostly an exception rather than an a rule. Outside of Chechnya and the south Caucasus they mostly actly as shock detatchments of local police and have most recently been tasked with breaking up demonstrations; like a glorified riot police. The secrecy surrounding OMON arises from their missions in Chechnya where they carry out mopping up operations and general police functions and specialise in abduction and torture. Apart from these tours of duty to volatile areas they are just regular police when deployed within their respective cities/districts.

In addition, there is the Chechen OMON which comprise of Chechen police officers who swear allegiance to Ramzan Kadyrov and are not very different from the "Kadyrytsov" militia as far as operational doctrine is concerned.

AFAIK the real Russian SF capabilities are contained within the "SOBR" and "Rus" counter-terrorist units both of which operate under the Ministry of Interior. However, the "Alpha" and "Vympel" detatchments of the FSB continue to be the cream of Russian special forces, especially the latter which specialises in sabotage in third countries.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 14 Nov 2009 16:45

Aditya G wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:Seriously sir, with all due respect, "experience" is a word often used to euphemistically suggest "old". The guy in the pic with the MP5 hanging around his neck is old rather than experienced! He could be having grand kids going to school! What is the retirement age for an NSG commando?


These NSG commandos are deputees from the regular Indian Army. Traditionally JCOs have held an important role and position in a battalion. Assuming NSG personnel need to be "young" to perform their task, you still need such men in the unit. But dont be fooled by his appearence, he would be fit sufficiently fit and has 15+ years of experience! I imagine a lot of it in J&K and other terrorist infested areas.


And don't be decieved by appearances, note the para wing. :twisted:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 14 Nov 2009 16:55

Aditya G wrote:Hmmm reading below I wonder if Russian special forces are the best to train with...

From The Sunday Times
April 26, 2009
Russian death squads ‘pulverise’ Chechens

Elite commandos have broken their silence to reveal how they torture, execute and then ...... I have no regrets. My conscience is clear.”


Didn't bother to read it all. Looked to much of a smear campaign to me.
But as far is joint exercise is concerned, I will care only about their abilities rather their moral values. IA has its own set of moral principles and I have no fear that during joint exercise, Russian SF will teach Para methods to torture, pulverise and sexually abuse suspects. :roll:
Last edited by Gaur on 14 Nov 2009 19:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 14 Nov 2009 17:02

Gaur wrote: And don't be decieved by appearances, note the para wing. :twisted:


Only PARA wings...you forget ze BALIDAN Badge on the right (JCO's) breast pocket. :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby D Roy » 14 Nov 2009 17:11

Special forces in all hot zones, have turned out to be a little "too special".

It often turns out that the real specialty of these units is their "interrogation " skills.

Despite the many votaries of special forces and specialized CI units I still feel conventional battle hardened soldiers used on a rotation basis do better and more humanely at several so called niche arenas.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 14 Nov 2009 17:27

^^
Don't know about that. Para Commandos and MARCOS are very actively involved in J&K CI ops and are doing a stellar job. I have never heard pf any report of human right violation concerning them.
Last edited by Gaur on 14 Nov 2009 19:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 14 Nov 2009 19:38

Oh yea - the SAS and other western guys are Mother Theresas in uniform.




they are so sweeeeettttt that they would walk away with uneasy feelings when the jihadis would cut the ankle tendons of russian prisoners and leave them in the afghan sun.

The second best are the Western trained ones like the Pukis etc

All others like the Russians etc are all pure evil :eek:

A lot of bull.

ParGha
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ParGha » 15 Nov 2009 07:46

Dmurphy wrote:
rohitvats wrote:IIRC, it was during the tenure of JJ Singh.
Did it not happen again this year? Guess they've made it a norm now. Either way, we're copying someone. First it was the British and now its the Iraqis.

No, the British don't march like the Indians - the easiest thing to distinguish would be that Indians swing their free arm much further back than the BA regulations. While the Indian army was patterned after the British due to obvious historic links, there has always been some subtle differences (even during the Raj). Post-Independence raisings have also followed protocols appropriate to their regimental identity (140 ppm for LI and Rifles regiments, 120 ppm for others). In the past the Parachute Regiment has marched as an infantry contingent, and also driven-past as an ATGM contingent (on jeeps). Don't know who the Paras were "copying" with their double-time/high-knees, but it looked quite undignified.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 15 Nov 2009 07:58

Don't know who the Paras were "copying" with their double-time/high-knees, but it looked quite undignified.

precisely, I don't care if the pakis do it or even the martians do it.
the hyperactive performance by a group of elite soldiers looks utterly disgraceful.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby dinesha » 15 Nov 2009 08:55

The curious case of establishment 22
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 76533.aspx

Sitting in his house on the Yamuna, Ngawang says that it was early 1963 when the first batch of about 12,000 Tibetans was brought to Chakrata, 100 km from Dehradun. Former armyman Sujan Singh Uban was the first inspector-general tasked with turning these rugged highlanders into fierce fighters — with substantial help from the CIA. The group took its intriguing name after the 22 Mountain Regiment that Uban had fought for during WWII.

Since then, the regiment — also called the Special Frontier Force (SFF) — has participated with exemplary skill in Operation Eagle (securing Chittagong hills during the Bangladesh War of 1971, where 46 soldiers of the regiment died), Operation Bluestar (clearing Amritsar’s Golden Temple in 1984), Operation Meghdoot (securing the Siachen glacier in 1984) and Operation Vijay (war with Pakistan at Kargil in 1999).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby KiranM » 15 Nov 2009 12:55

^^^ Training with FSB Alpha might be too much to ask. But cross training with Spetsnaz units under GRU would still be highly useful.

Vympel under FSB?? I thought they would be under SVD since their role is external.

Regards,
Kiran

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Anshul » 15 Nov 2009 12:59

I had a good discussion with an IA Captain who had been to CIJWS.
His words were "Its a sham....the buggers have just created an AURA out of nothing".

He said its no better than the actual COIN modules included in the IMA syllabus.Stuff taught at CIJWS ...is regulr wiki material.They don't tell you anything special ....the syllabus is outdated.

He also said "God knows what the amrikis got out of it....they must have taken up the course for its giggle value!".

But its been made mandatory for all units based in NE.


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