Discussion on Indian Special Forces

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1143
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 19 Jan 2016 17:35

Newest para unit would be numbered 29.. raised by my school mate. Nowadays he is raising another one with TA.


Is this raising a conversion or a fresh raise. How long does it take to raise a new unit? Is there a Dilution? If number of SF units outnumber Vanilla Para Units how does the ORBAT fit into overall strategy of things?

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 19 Jan 2016 22:44

Deepak Rao - Hony Major in Parachute 116 Bn (TA)

'Commissioned' along with MS Dhoni and Bindra

Image

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 20 Jan 2016 18:42

News of new SF Bn from 2011...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 018000.cms

GUWAHATI: The army is raising a new Special Forces' battalion primarily for conducting counter-insurgency operations in the northeast. The new unit of the Parachute Regiment 11 Para (SF) will be first deployed in the NE sector, a source in the army said.

The decision was made to strengthen the army's capabilities to carry out special operations in the insurgency-hit region, he added. ....

The 11 Para (SF) will be deployed under the Tezpur-based 4 Corps and 3 Corps in Dimapur. Personnel of the unit will be taken by aircraft or helicopters to conduct surgical strikes or special operations depending on the situation.

....

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 21 Jan 2016 11:32

The apex body to deal with aircraft hijacks is a committee of secretaries, with the control room at Rashtrapati Bhawan!

I find this a curious arrangement, as the control room should be in hands of a Operations guys with governance by CCS. The ops room should be co located with NSG Counter Hijack team at IGI or perhaps in Cabinet Secretariat (RAW)

Moment a real hijack happens, we will need to fly out a NSG team from IGI. Today IAF has a special operations unit in form of 77 squadron located in NCR. There should be a 24x7 detachment of Mi-17s at Manesar and IGI to support induction into Hindon.

Garuds are co-located at Hindon as well - in case there is a more severe incident where safety of runway is not guaranteed they should be ready to parachute into airport with arms and make contact with the terrorists asap.

21 Jan 2016
Hindustan Times (Delhi)Tushar Srivastava tushar@hindustantimes.com
GOVT TO CONNECT KEY AIRPORTS TO ANTI-HIJACK CONTROL ROOM

NEW DELHI: In view of the increased threat perception and intelligence alerts indicating to an imminent hijack threat, the government has decided to set-up a hotline and video-conferencing facility to connect the country’s top airports with the super-sensitive anti-hijack control room at the cabinet secretariat office in Rashtrapati Bhawan.

“A decision has been taken to connect 12 important airports with the COSAH (Committee of Secretaries on Aircraft Hijack) control room, situated at Rashtrapati Bhawan through a hotline and video conferencing facility,” said an official. COSAH, headed by the Cabinet Secretary, is the apex government body to deal with a hijack.

The airports on the list include Chandigarh, Jaipur, Kolkata, Nagpur, Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad among others. Sources said Delhi’s Indira Gandhi International airport, which already has a hotline connection with the COSAH control room, has also been asked to install a video conferencing facility.
“At each airport, a control room will be set up and dedicated secure tie lines, the safest and fastest mode of communication in case of a hijack, would be installed. The Airports Authority of India and the private airport operators will bear the cost at their respective airports,” said another official.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66488
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 21 Jan 2016 12:54

india is generally lagging behind in optronics.

we do not have a single project or OEMs to make
- thermal imagers both HHTI or for MBT/IFV
- recce camera pod
- LDP
- any commercial camera lens makers (the last one was probably "hotshot" in my childhood :roll: and I am 43 now! )
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... camera.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_i_kTUWZKXyU/T ... G_8989.jpg
- any commerical DSLR camera body makers or cellphone camera module makers
- professional film cameras
- NVG
- photolithography kit
- CCD sensors
- IRST
- high grade microscopes , prosumer telescopes or medical optics (if you visit O/T for eye doctors most of the kit will be imported)
- even electronic balances that can weigh down to fractions of a gm for medical/chemical industry are imported (first hand info)
any niche item needing precision and quality - you will have a hard time finding any OEM here . you will find the local sales outlets of global majors.

all we make is spectacles and contact lenses.

Rus may be behind the bleeding edge but they have a full cradle to grave food chain for all the above and more, since they cannot easily import western or japani/korean/taiwani kit COTS.

given this scene, I dont see how BEL or anyone else can just take up high end NVG and make it work. let us not underestimate just how backward and shallow our domestic tech base for high value niche items is vs even moderate sikulars like UK, france and Soko not to speak of japan and germany.

we are relatively much better off in RF systems like radio and radar.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 22 Jan 2016 22:06

Tons of rona-dhona by Sandeep U in India Today. Sometimes you wonder if interns research and write articles and these guys are only for branding. I am seeing a lot of opinion but scarce analysis

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/from ... 70047.html

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/excl ... 71860.html

...

At the heart of the NSG's worries is the fact that it is a deputationist force. This means it lacks permanent cadre of its own. Army personnel come into the NSG on a two-year deputation, paramilitary personnel serve five-year deputations. This transient character of the force has killed its institutional memory. The seeds of the NSG's neglect perhaps lie in the MHA's modernisation plan itself. The document terms it as a "Central Armed Police Force", a nomenclature that effectively spells death for the special force. The NSG's upgradation has remained largely paper-bound because of frequent changes at the top.

The Director-General (D-G), based at NSG headquarters near Delhi airport, heads the provisioning and procurement units. Since 26/11, the NSG has changed six D-Gs, each of whom has served for an average of 14 months. "It takes six months for one to understand the process. By the time he decides, it is time to go," says an NSG official.

"The UK's elite SAS is also a deputationist force but retains a 25-per cent permanent component. Indian army commandos spend over 10 years in their special forces battalions," says Major General V.K. Datta (retired), who took part in Operation Black Thunder in 1988. Proposals to create a similar permanent component for the NSG have failed to see the light of day..


If India Today thinks that the DG should be from the Army then please go ahead say it. the article is a long rant. Truth is that it is the NSG who needs the Army deputationists as the latter have rich field experience from CT ops in J&K and like.

Useful graphic:

Image

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17897
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 22 Jan 2016 22:36

Singha wrote:we do not have a single project or OEMs to make
- thermal imagers both HHTI or for MBT/IFV


I hope you are pulling our leg...?? :P

IRDE has a bunch of imagers in service - plus the new H&K Sight for Arjun Mk2 with Elbit (http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/i ... SENSOR.jpg) and the T-90's CPS..stabilized sights for the Navy..the IMFS (http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techno ... 091400.ece), a LOROS replacement for the Army..plus other sights (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rryhFbg-mOI/ ... stem-1.jpg) being inducted..plus some hush hush payloads for medium/long range applications (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DZ8s5PH4PSY/ ... rostat.jpg)

IRDE Director wrote:Some of the important projects completed includes development of Gap Measuring Device Mk-II (GMD), Integrated Multi Function Sight (IMFS), Commander Thermal Imagers for AFVs (T-90, BMP and T-72 Tanks), Thermal Imagers for Lightweight Laser Target Designator (LLTD) and Helmet Mounted Thermal Imager (HMTI).These Instruments are in different phases of induction and has generated business of worth Rs 4500 crores to Production Agencies based on DRDO design.


Go ahead and see Tonbo's lineup as well - they are primarily export oriented and have a good rep.
http://tonboimaging.com/wp/products-2/


https://www.youtube.com/user/serialinnovations/videos

Alpha Design is also into integrating TIs and NVGs - its CMD is the ex head of BEL R&D, Col HS Shankar.



The core CCD and detectors are imported, but so what.. ninety percent of the world's manufacturers do the same.. as long as we can deploy these in bulk and save the obscene markups charged by yehudi/french cos on top of the core detectors for their "overall design".. its all good.

Over time, if purse strings are loosened we can get that inside.

given this scene, I dont see how BEL or anyone else can just take up high end NVG and make it work


err....BEL already supplies NVG... they now have a deal with Photonis of France for the latest XR-5 tubes with FOM 1700-2000 (IA requirement is 1700, Pak has 1600) and state of art is 2000-2100. A lot of money put into this.

BEL wrote: It has been confirmed by Photonis, the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) of II tubes, that the plant and machinery installed for implementation of the current ToT for XD-4 II tube is also used by Photonis to manufacture the advanced XR-5 II tube with FOM 1600-2017 with certain improvements in processes. The technology for getting the incremental ToT for II tube of FOM 1600-2017, i.e. XR-5 specifications, is under discussion with the French authorities.


Followed by:

http://defencesecurityindia.com/bel-man ... echnology/

There is no reason why BEL cannot work with IRDE and Tonbo to make "high end NVG".

Meanwhile TATA SED is breathing down BELs neck in the electronics space as well.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 629685.ece

The biggest thing is the BEL-Photonis tieup - it gives us access to the best in class, high FOM NV tubes. That has been our historic weak point and after a lot of paper pushing to Std Committee of Defence, BEL finally got this cleared (while of course the attempt to make local tech at IISC, funded by BEL seems to be trundling along).

All it takes then is a MOD mandate or a team to ask these companies to work together to make a bunch of products based off of the Photonis tubes. BEL can make its breakeven by getting the tubes out. IRDE, Tonbo; IRDE, Alpha; IRDE, Tata; IRDE BEL can work together for the designs for the NVGs, whereas final production (For a range of products) can be split between these firms amortizing the cost India has put into get these tubes made at BEL.

Our biggest issue has always been coordination & lack of focus at MOD level to drive joint requirements across forces & joint programs.
Last edited by Karan M on 22 Jan 2016 23:02, edited 2 times in total.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17897
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 22 Jan 2016 23:01

Aditya G wrote:Tons of rona-dhona by Sandeep U in India Today. Sometimes you wonder if interns research and write articles and these guys are only for branding. I am seeing a lot of opinion but scarce analysis

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/from ... 70047.html

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/excl ... 71860.html

...

At the heart of the NSG's worries is the fact that it is a deputationist force. This means it lacks permanent cadre of its own. Army personnel come into the NSG on a two-year deputation, paramilitary personnel serve five-year deputations. This transient character of the force has killed its institutional memory. The seeds of the NSG's neglect perhaps lie in the MHA's modernisation plan itself. The document terms it as a "Central Armed Police Force", a nomenclature that effectively spells death for the special force. The NSG's upgradation has remained largely paper-bound because of frequent changes at the top.

The Director-General (D-G), based at NSG headquarters near Delhi airport, heads the provisioning and procurement units. Since 26/11, the NSG has changed six D-Gs, each of whom has served for an average of 14 months. "It takes six months for one to understand the process. By the time he decides, it is time to go," says an NSG official.

"The UK's elite SAS is also a deputationist force but retains a 25-per cent permanent component. Indian army commandos spend over 10 years in their special forces battalions," says Major General V.K. Datta (retired), who took part in Operation Black Thunder in 1988. Proposals to create a similar permanent component for the NSG have failed to see the light of day..


If India Today thinks that the DG should be from the Army then please go ahead say it. the article is a long rant. Truth is that it is the NSG who needs the Army deputationists as the latter have rich field experience from CT ops in J&K and like.

Useful graphic:

Image


A permanent component and institutional memory etc are good points but there is also the point that the NSG has (per what I remember) a far younger age profile than the average IA unit. Very fit youngsters who are trained in CQB, first & foremost and live and breathe PT & CQB.

An average SF unit has multiple tasks and of which, specific units and troops will be earmarked for HRT type tasks as their primary role where collateral damage is the be-all and end-all. They have to also train for para-insertion, LRPP, sabotage, intelligence gathering, COIN.. the list is long & daunting.

jayasimha
BRFite
Posts: 400
Joined: 09 Feb 2011 17:31

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jayasimha » 23 Jan 2016 17:20

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=134524


15-January-2016 19:03 IST


Brief: Garuds (IAF Special Forces)


The Garuds (Special Forces of the IAF) were formed in 2003 towards providing specific in-house role capabilities to the IAF.

Garuds are specially trained to be a Quick Reaction Force at important IAF bases, protect IAF high value assets, conduct search and rescue during the peace and war, and undertake counter-terrorism tasks and special missions. They are regularly tasked to assist civil authorities for disaster relief operations during calamities. Garuds have been effectively employed in Indian missions in support of the UN and during extrication of Indian national from war zones.

The initial Garuds trained in Commando Courses with the Indian Army, Indian Navy, ITBP, NSG and Special Frontier Force, imbibing best capabilities by their varied exposure. These Garuds were deployed in the Kashmir Valley for direct on-the-job exposure as well. Having built on the experience gained over the last 12 years, Garuds are now trained in-house by the IAF at the Garud Regimental Training Centre. Small batches of Garuds also train for specialist roles with other Services and Para-Military organizations. This special force of the IAF has participated in exercises with foreign special forces and given a good account of their training and capabilities. With their exposure to the best special force capabilities on land, at sea and in air, the Garuds are a valuable force multiplier in all kinds of combat and counter terrorism operations and are always a much- sought asset in difficult situations.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2212
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby VinodTK » 23 Jan 2016 23:58

Indian special forces diving into Puget Sound with JBLM’s Green Berets
In movies, “cool guys don’t look at explosions.”

In real life, they don’t admit that jumping out of a 99-foot-long Army Chinook helicopter into the chilly waters of Puget Sound with a group of elite soldiers from the other side of the planet might give them a bit of an adrenaline rush.

“It’s just like walking off a dive board at any high school,” an enlisted Green Beret said Friday after participating in a jump from the rear of one of the Army’s largest helicopters into Puget Sound.

We’ll have to take his word for it.

His low-flying leap into Puget Sound was one of the drills unfolding in a two-week exercise linking a select cadre of soldiers from India with Green Berets from Joint Base Lewis-McChord’s 1st Special Forces Group.

It’s a partnership the two countries are using as they confront shared worries that terrorists or pirates might harm their interests in coastal waters. That’s the main job handed to the 42 soldiers from India’s special forces who are paired this month with a 12-man dive team from the Green Berets at JBLM.

Friday’s jump from a Chinook helicopter, for example, was practice for how a military unit would attack a beach if it could not land an aircraft. A helicopter would drop soldiers into the water, and then small boats would take troops to their targets. It’s a common technique Green Berets have been practicing for decades.

“Everything we’ll be doing with our Indian partners is about building their capacity” to win using unconventional tactics, said Lt. Col. Terry Butcher, commander of 1st Group’s 2nd Battalion.

Called Vajra Prahar, the exercise is one of the larger events on American soil connecting a foreign military with Green Berets from JBLM.

Most of the time, soldiers in 1st Group are the ones traveling to faraway places. They typically touch down in about 20 nations every year in an arc that stretches from Maldives in the Arabian Sea north to Mongolia and on to South Korea. They’re regulars in Hong Kong, and they spend a lot of time in Japan.

The Army has five active-duty Special Forces groups, each with a focus on a different region of the world. They’re experts in unconventional warfare whose mission centers on preparing for combat and on closely advising the militaries of American allies. The group at JBLM primarily works in the Pacific.

It’s going to be cold. It’s going to rain, maybe even snow. We’re going to be in the water every single day.

That’s why it’s known as “First in Asia,” a motto that references the battalion of soldiers it has had stationed on the Japanese island of Okinawa since the 1950s and the unit’s responsibility to respond quickly if emergencies break out in the Far East.

“We are routinely the first ones there,” said Col. Steve Johnson, 1st Group’s deputy commander.

The group has its own language school, and it has soldiers fluent in the tongues of at least 10 of the countries they regularly visit. Sometimes, they practice their Asian languages by visiting neighborhoods in Seattle.

For this month’s exercise, the armies picked Puget Sound and a stretch of the Oregon coast for the same reason the Navy Special Warfare Command announced last week that it wants SEALs to train more often here: It’s a difficult environment that will stress tough military service members who might be called up for unexpected challenges anywhere in the world.

“It’s going to be cold. It’s going to rain, maybe even snow. We’re going to be in the water every single day,” a Green Beret captain commanding the dive team said at a Monday ceremony kicking off the exercise.

The Green Berets asked that The News Tribune not name any Special Forces soldiers below the rank of lieutenant colonel to protect their identities in case they are assigned classified missions.

Indian special forces have not visited JBLM to work with 1st Group since 2011. This event is so significant that India sent its ambassador from Washington, D.C., to attend its opening ceremony at JBLM.

“The exchange is taking place at a time, I must say to you, when the political relations between the two countries are extremely strong,” Indian Ambassador Arun K. Singh told a room full of Green Berets and Indian special forces soldiers.

He noted that it follows a recent increase in Indian spending on American-made weaponry. It also follows a September event that brought about 150 soldiers from a conventional Indian army unit to JBLM for an exercise with an infantry battalion.

Known as “First in Asia,” the 1st Special Forces Group sends Green Berets to an arc of nations from Maldives to South Korea.

This time, the Indian soldiers got to visit the headquarters of one of the Army’s most selective units while training with underwater warfare experts.

On Monday, they peppered Green Berets with questions about some of the devices they’d get to use later in the exercise, such as a one-person submarine that can haul a diver close to a target without being detected by an enemy.

By Friday, they were dressed in dive suits similar to the ones the JBLM soldiers wear.

They also showed the same kind of nonchalance that the local Green Berets demonstrated after their plunges into Puget Sound.

“We trained for this at home, jumping into cold water,” said Maj. Puneet Atwal, commander of the Indian contingent.

He said he enjoyed working with Americans to share the methods they’d use on similar missions.

“This is good training,” he said. “This military to military interaction between the countries will be good for our future.”

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 24 Jan 2016 13:25

Yesterday night was going thru a couple of books sitting forgotten at home ...

- Maj Gen OP Sabharwal in "Killer Instinct" mentioned that we despatched the NSG to Dubai while IC-814 was still there. However, the aircraft was denied permission to land.

- Gaurav Sawant in "Dateline Kargil" spent quality time with SF boys during the ops. One juicy titbit 8) :

Image

Can we scope out Shangruti on google maps?

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 24 Jan 2016 17:40

IIRC, Shangruti is located across the LC well inside Pakistani side opposite Chorbat La.

Rohit would know the area better.

ravip
BRFite
Posts: 270
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ravip » 24 Jan 2016 19:29

"The new Army chief, somewhat worryingly, appears not to have had the time to learn some of the key lessons of the Kargil War. Speaking in Bangalore on December 22, 2002, he asserted that paratroopers were "never found wanting in jobs entrusted to them." While the Para Commando Regiment indeed has a history of exceptional service, the Kargil War threw up evidence that all was not well in this elite Army regiment. 10 Para Commando, for example, faced heavy casualties after a freewheeling effort to interdict Pakistani maintenance routes to the Shangruti complex. Its troops, Bammi found, opened fire in haste, betraying their positions, and were then unable to dig in because their officers had not bothered to equip them with the customary tools. Bammi's account charges the unit's commanders with being "over-confident", a result of the fact that they had "underestimated the enemy's strength and reactions". Similarly, 9 Para Commando faced horrific casualties in an ill-conceived offensive on Sando."

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2002/stories/20030131005403400.htm

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7619
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 24 Jan 2016 21:55

A small image showing position of Shangruti/Sangruti Complex with respect to Batalik.

Image

From what I remember, Shangruti/Sangruti is high peak on Pakistan side of LOC and situated north-west of Batalik between Batalik and Chorbat La. Jubar, Kukarthang and Khalubar are on our side but had access from other side and entire feature was occupied by the Pakees.

Shameek
BRFite
Posts: 755
Joined: 02 Jan 2009 20:44
Location: Ionosphere

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Shameek » 24 Jan 2016 22:09

Link

Article from July 1999.

Jubar Hill, Point 4268 recaptured New Delhi, July 7 (HT Correspondent)

Indian forces today made major gains in the Batalik sector by recapturing strategic Jubar Hill and Point 4268, a position south of it, in the Kuker Thang area.

It is understood that the recapture of Jubar Hill would help the Indian troops launch operations towards the Shangruti complex. The complex culminates at 5342 metre Shangruti peak, that astrides the Line of Control (LoC). Presently, fierce engagements are on to the north of Jubar even as mopping up operations are being conducted on the recaptured positions.

The recapture of Jubar Hill was the result of simultaneous operations by the IAF, the artillery and the Indian infantry. The IAF fighters denied replenishment to the enemy by effectively targeting Muntho Dalo, situated south of Jubar, Tharo and Kuker Thang and destroying adversary’s logistics bases. The Indian artillery pounded enemy positions atop Jubar initially using 105 mm guns and later
using 155 mm Bofors in direct firing role. It is understood that multi-barrel rocket launchers (MBRLs) targeted an enemy ammunition dump in the mountain crags. Additional 155 mm batteries and MBRLs were pressed into action yesterday as a part of a combined strategy.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3345
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 25 Jan 2016 12:08

The Frontline report seems to be at odds with Gaurav Savant's account in Dateline Kargil.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17897
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 25 Jan 2016 12:10

Frontline account would be by grandmudda crossed loc swami. Need one say more?

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3345
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 25 Jan 2016 12:49

Karan M wrote:Frontline account would be by grandmudda crossed loc swami. Need one say more?


Not unexpected. While Gaurav's account is frugal with details and rightfully so, PS is liberal with lies and made up facts. He's been upto this for a long long time and there's a pattern to his fibs.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17897
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 25 Jan 2016 13:21

Yup.. he was pretty badly exposed with the CG incident and then the Myanmar thing. Chap has been fibbing for a long long time, acting like 'His Masters Voice' for the c-system to put down the NDA Govt and now the BJP one and any military op that seeks to build up their perception as being competent and a threat to the dilli dynasty.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 25 Jan 2016 17:13

Lt Gen Mohinder Puri's account. I could not see anything on Shangruti, but he has elaborated on 9 Para (SF) ops in Sando:

Image

ravip
BRFite
Posts: 270
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ravip » 25 Jan 2016 19:53

3. You quote Sawant thus:

‘"Gentlemen, tonight you will embark on a mission of which I have no knowledge if am asked. I am sending you but, God forbid, if something happens to you, I'll not have enough powers to retrieve you. You are going as a voluntary force and because of your love for the motherland. But if asked, I shall say you are the figment of somebody's imagination," the senior Batalik Brigade officer told a special section of the elite Para Commandos.’

It is real melodramatic. So the ‘senior officer’ namely someone from Brig Devinder Singh’s outfit said the SF was a figment of imagination? It’s great for a novel but not so in actualities. NO army officer of worth his salt would say such junk. It is most demoralising. At that moment of time, morale was a great requirement. I know Devinder, who himself is a paratrooper arty officer, he would have told that ‘senior officer’ to just take off into the blues. The ‘when and how of the operation did not come out’ because it was possibly a journalist dramatics of exaggerating a normal event.


Gaurav Sawants book is good, (i find it better than the rest) but I always wonder how much of it is melodrama/exaggeration/writers licence?

Off the topic, Sawant hasnot exactly endeared himself with the Armed Forces. I believe when he went to give a talk (on what?) at the college of Air Warfare, he was laughed out of the stage by all the other officers present. He apparently tried to be rude and was paid back in the same coin.

Nowadays I think hes become a News anchor at Star News. after NDTV broke away from them


I have read Sawant's book... and am sorry to say that he is long on self promotion and being pompous rather then being true to the facts on the ground. I have yet to read the book A Ridge too Far. But I'm sure that it does full justice to the subject, coming from an ex army man himself.

Most Indian journalists are utterly clueless about things military and it's appalling to read their portrayal of things military, the Kargil conflict being no exception.


Gaurav Sawants book is pretty ameturish compared to Amarinder Singhs from the military standpoint.

However it does have a human angle. Visible in a clutter of poetic licence and melodrama.


These comments are from BR history!!! I will not say more. People here who bash Praveen Sawmi should try to know what Ajit Doval has to say about PS.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17897
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 25 Jan 2016 20:43

You might want to figure out what Ray said about the journos who did the CG nautanki later..

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3345
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 26 Jan 2016 07:34

ravip wrote:These comments are from BR history!!! I will not say more. People here who bash Praveen Sawmi should try to know what Ajit Doval has to say about PS.


Why don't you post some links to let us know what AD has to say about PS.

A simple google search usually turns up loads and loads of articles where PS is whining and ranting against AD.

Do you believe that PS is bashed undeservingly?

ravip
BRFite
Posts: 270
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ravip » 26 Jan 2016 23:24

Kashi wrote:Why don't you post some links to let us know what AD has to say about PS.

A simple google search usually turns up loads and loads of articles where PS is whining and ranting against AD.

Do you believe that PS is bashed undeservingly?


In the subsequent decades, Swami has gained a reputation for his searching political analyses and for an academic style of journalism bolstered by wide reading, especially in history. The former IB chief Doval, who became close to Swami late in his career, wrote that he saw a “researcher’s doggedness and an intellectual’s curiosity” in the journalist, “traits an intelligence professional normally frowns on!”


http://www.caravanmagazine.in/reportage ... unknowns/2

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3345
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 27 Jan 2016 05:02

ravip wrote:http://www.caravanmagazine.in/reportage/known-unknowns/2


Quoting Caravan as a substantive source?
Last edited by Kashi on 27 Jan 2016 05:11, edited 1 time in total.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5304
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Viv S » 27 Jan 2016 05:07

I believe the Caravan article is referencing this book review by Ajit Doval.


Protracted warfare


Exploration of the history of jihadist groups in Jammu and Kashmir, and their activities since 1947

Ajit Doval


Image

INDIA, PAKISTAN AND THE SECRET JIHAD — The Covert War in Kashmir, 1947-2004: Praveen Swami; Routledge-Taylor & Francis Group, U.K. and U.S.A. Distributed by Foundation Books, Cambridge House, 4381/4, Ansari Road, Daryaganj, New Delhi-110002. Rs. 495.

History, conventionally, gets reconstructed around the axis of mega events; around towering personalities and their complex relationships. Beneath these high points, however, flows a subterranean stream — invisible but powerful — of unknown events: of intrigues and manipulation, often of dubious legality and morality, which cast their long shadows on the course of history. If historians could have the luxury of access into these backroom operations, written accounts of our near past might look unrecognisably different. But, that rarely happens.

Praveen Swami’s India, Pakistan and the Secret Jihad is one such bold attempt in this direction, connecting the largely-unknown behind-the-scene occurrences to the highpoints of history in Jammu and Kashmir from 1947. The author, as a journalist, has long been covering Jammu and Kashmir, and national security affairs which gives him a deep understanding of the subject.


Post-1947 history

Jammu and Kashmir’s post-1947 history has been disproportionately influenced by what in Clausewitzian terms could be called as “war through other means”, both in offensive and defensive mode. Right from its inception, Pakistan’s obsession with Kashmir led its policy to be dictated by two doctrinal fixations. Firstly, Pakistani strategists assumed that religion, in this case Islam, subsumes all other identities. Given a choice, they believed, Pakistan would be the natural choice of all Muslims of Jammu and Kashmir. Secondly, they believed — as did many colonial military strategists — that India was inherently weak and fragmented, and thus could be coerced to submission through a sustainable sub-conventional warfare despite its apparent military superiority.

Pakistan believed that given its state character and polity, India would find it difficult to respond effectively or make the costs unaffordable for Pakistan in a non-military covert offensive. It assessed that control of Jammu and Kashmir could be wrested through such a low cost offensive. It is most intriguing that despite being proved repeatedly wrong on both the counts, and having paid a heavy price for that, Pakistan’s self-belief in these credos remains largely unshaken.


Terrorism

Swami traces the course of this undeclared war by Pakistan, richly beefed up with authentic historical material and details. His account begins with the “Informal War” following accession of the state to India, subversion in the 1950s, followed by the infamous “Kashmir Conspiracy Case”, infiltration of saboteurs in 1960s under operation “Gibraltar”, and, finally, the sponsoring of high intensity terrorism during the last decade and a half. The trail reconstructed by him brings out an uninterrupted continuity in Pakistan’s thinking and action, bar a brief tactical hiatus following its decisive defeat in the 1971 war. Although the tactics and tools, sophistication and lethality of weapons used, the intensity and extent of logistic and infrastructural support, and selection of targets were upgraded particularly during General Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq’s regime and after, the underlying strategy remained unchanged.

Nuclearisation has further emboldened Pakistan to raise the ante of its long-running covert offensive. The Kargil War was a manifestation of this strategic estimate, Pakistan working on the premise that India would confine its response to localised action and not escalate it to risk a nuclear war. India’s response to nuclear blackmail by Pakistan remains an issue that Indian strategists will have to ponder over seriously. Pakistani’s tinkering with Kashmir’s politics through the propping up of outfits and leaders supportive of its position, another issue carefully documented in the book, are also issues that remain sources of concern.


New insights

In this well-researched book, Swami uses new facts to build an absorbing and informative account that offers new insights into many landmark events of contemporary Kashmir history. Many years ago, I had seen a researcher’s doggedness and an intellectual’s curiosity in the journalistic exterior of Swami — traits an intelligence professional normally frowns on! His craving to know beyond the obvious and finding a conceptual explanation for what exists, has only sharpened with the passage of time. This is reflected in his book.

However, the study is still far from complete. Much more lies buried within Pakistan wherefrom most of the wily operations were launched, resourced, and controlled. One only hopes that more of the behind-the-scene operators, will, in time, follow Major General Akbar Khan — who commanded Pakistan’s drive towards Srinagar in 1947 — and give us information that can help make the story complete. Even on the Indian side, the author has not been able to conclusively develop many themes, which future historians must address. Among them are the details of precisely why and how Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, despite his almost visceral hatred of Pakistan, wittingly or unwittingly fell victim to its machinations. What exactly was it that went wrong between him and Jawaharlal Nehru despite their long years of friendship? And why was the Kashmir Conspiracy Case, after years of painstaking investigations which led to unearthing of a grave conspiracy to dismember India, not pursued in court ?


Covert methods

Pakistan’s compulsive anti-India fixation and its unshaken faith in the efficacy of covert methods will have to be factored in by India in formulating its security policies. “Let the past be forgiven and forgotten to start life on a clean slate” may be a good slogan — but it is bad doctrine. Presently, Pakistan is under pressure due to internal instability and external pressures, which have forced it to restrain and nuance its anti-Indian covert offensive. To mistake this for a strategic shift that is irreversible would be a grave folly. In an age when conventional wars have become unpredictable and cost-ineffective tools for achieving national objectives, covert wars, as a distinct form of warfare, are there to stay. The faster we internalise this reality and prepare for it, in both defensive and offensive mode, the more secure India will be.

Swami has done a commendable job by underlining this reality and giving new insights into the minds of those who control the real levers of power in Pakistan.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3345
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 27 Jan 2016 05:21

^^ Yes AD seems to be quite charitable about PS in his book review. He also points out subtly that PS may have a tendency to gloss over or ignore the bits that may not fit in with his narrative- probably as a result of his doggedness. Members here have successfully dismantled his theories on Grandma crossed the LoC and smuggling boat blow up, so it's perfectly fine to be sceptical about his "research"

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9911
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 27 Jan 2016 05:23

^^ There is no denying though that PS has very good and deep sources in IB and lot of his "peak scoop stories" were when Doval was IB director, meaning Doval-ji did nothing to block him from accessing IB folks. So maybe they do have some sort of good relationship with the occasional PS leftist/Aman-ki-Asha tendencies being given the go-by

ravip
BRFite
Posts: 270
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ravip » 27 Jan 2016 19:40

Whether people like it or not, many people in National Security circle agree that PS is IB cultivated asset.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 27 Jan 2016 19:44

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/160105/n ... urt-locker

Bengaluru: On a cold and chilly December night in 2014, a low intensity IED blast ripped through one of the city's busiest roads, killing a woman strolling with her family. Many more were injured.

Two days after the blast, around 10 am, the DC team rushed to the spot on the Church Street off busy Brigade Road where the blast took place. It had been barricaded and cordoned off. Scores of journalists were jostling for the perfect spot to get the perfect shot, the perfect quote.

We had rushed there as the bomb disposal experts from National Security Guard (NSG) Elite Commandos from the Indian Army had flown in, to examine the site of the blast. The cordoned off area was crawling with men in uniform armed with gadgets, scouring the area, sifting through the debris, looking for clues.

Amidst the hustle and bustle my gaze through the lens settled on the tall and imposing figure of a young man who was intently watching the proceedings. Sporting a pair of slender reading glasses, and holding an I Pad, his keen gaze didn't miss a trick. He could have passed for any of the hundreds of IT geeks who throng our streets. But there was something different about him. His calm demeanour, his stance, well inside the cordoned area! And that's when it hit me - he was either an investigating top cop officer or from the Indian Army. As an army kid, I recognized the breed!

The other plainclothes men sporting bomb disposal gadgets were silently following his every command. When he came up close, I asked him "Sir, are you from the Armed Forces?" Without missing a step, he said that he was a technical consultant working with a major multinational company 8) , and moved back into the cordoned area. That's when he shed his techie persona completely, and took charge. He gestured. A junior officer handed him a pair of rubber gloves and a gadget. This man with a charm of the boy-next-door must be important, I thought as I clicked away.

I made one more effort to engage him in conversation, and told him "you are definitely from the Army". And he asked why to which I said "I was passionate about defence and services and though I am a Photo-Journalist I am a son of a person who wore the uniform of the Indian Air Force". He replied "such passion is everywhere, the real passion is when you join the services." As he was leaving though, he made a point of walking right up to me and saying, pointing at my chest, "Soldier, No Rank, No Details, but I am NIRANJAN.!”

It was not until Sunday when I entered the house of the Pathankot martyr, elite NSG Commando Bomb Disposal Unit’s Chief Lt.Col. Niranjan Kumars' house at Doddabommasandra and saw his photograph hung up on the wall that I realized that this was the same super-smart man I had met on the night of December 30 at Church Street.

This man, who put his life in jeopardy for all of us, is my real hero, the star of our own "Hurt Locker" Story. How many valiant and brave Lt.Col.Niranjan Kumars', Major Unnikrishans', Lt.Col Jojan Thomases and Col. Vasanths from Bengaluru must we lose to the marauders who cross our borders with such murderous intent.

Lt Col. Niranjan, we doff our hats to you!

partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3980
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby partha » 28 Jan 2016 09:11

sum wrote:^^ There is no denying though that PS has very good and deep sources in IB and lot of his "peak scoop stories" were when Doval was IB director, meaning Doval-ji did nothing to block him from accessing IB folks. So maybe they do have some sort of good relationship with the occasional PS leftist/Aman-ki-Asha tendencies being given the go-by

I think it's the other way round. IB has good contacts in media. PS is one of their pawns. I believe it's in IB's control what info is released to their contacts like PS and what is not. IB controls the narrative. This type of arrangement is sometimes mistaken by people like PS to believe they are some kind of james bond journalists having exclusive sources in deep corners of the establishment. They slowly develop a sense of entitlement and when the sources decide for whatever reason not to leak info to their contacts in some cases, they become frustrated and cook up grandma and bush fire stories to appear different and remain relevant.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3728
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Vipul » 03 Feb 2016 20:51

IAF plans to raise 10 more Garud squadrons.

In the aftermath of the Pathankot terror attack, Indian Air Force plans to raise 10 additional squadrons of Garud commandos, consisting of about 1,000 personnel, to protect its 950 flying and non-flying establishments across the country.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9911
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 04 Feb 2016 08:00

^^ Is Garud now a airfield protection unit and not a SF/Pathfinder/hit enemy airbase force anymore?

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1143
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 04 Feb 2016 09:21

^^ Is Garud now a airfield protection unit and not a SF/Pathfinder/hit enemy airbase force anymore?


Its to prevent shortsightedness such as this that we need a SOCOM yesterday!.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1143
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 04 Feb 2016 09:31

Image

Members of 2nd Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) and Indian Army Special Forces conduct combat water survival training at Soldiers Field House, Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash., Jan. 19, 2016. (U.S. Army Photo by Staff Sgt. Sarah Jane Roberts)

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 13 Feb 2016 03:09

Para SF:

Image

Image

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9911
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 13 Feb 2016 07:02

^^Saar source?

I honestly thought they were the usual pigs till i saw ur caption!!

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 13 Feb 2016 13:10

sum wrote:^^Saar source?

I honestly thought they were the usual pigs till i saw ur caption!!


Lt Gen PC Katoch!

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7021
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby JE Menon » 13 Feb 2016 15:14

Is the above public boss? I haven't seen these anywhere before...

OK it is public, has been since 2013 at least. :shock:

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 14 Feb 2016 03:52

4 Para in action in Kupwara encounter 12-13th Feb 2016

Image


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Prithwiraj, vinod and 22 guests