Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Karan M
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 04:03

We are basically using our SF as elite light infantry. The SF in typical insurgent uniforms above would be leveraged within J&K, but I wonder how long would it before we set up Delta/DevGru style multimission capability teams with embedded intel analysts, comms specialists, etc.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby shaun » 14 Feb 2016 09:17

rkhanna wrote:Members of 2nd Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) and Indian Army Special Forces conduct combat water survival training at Soldiers Field House, Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash., Jan. 19, 2016. (U.S. Army Photo by Staff Sgt. Sarah Jane Roberts)


i have seen this type of captions before too , where they mention the proper formation name of the US army or marine but generalize their Indian counterpart . The photos with the captions are posted by the US army , so there can't be any lack of information about the formation name of their Indian counterpart but they deliberately post in such fashion.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby JTull » 18 Feb 2016 14:07

NSG withdraws 600 men from VVIP security duty

Taking the first step towards reverting to its original role of undertaking counter-terror operations, the NSG has pulled out over 600 commandos from its VVIP security unit and used them for the first time during the recent Pathankot attack.

According to the new blueprint, which has been in the making since the last two years, two teams out of the total three of the 11th Special Rangers Group (SRG) stand withdrawn from VVIP security duties and have been tasked to undertake counter-terror operations along with and in assistance of the primary strike units — the Special Action Group (SAG).

While each of the two SAGs (51and 52) are tasked with counter-terror, counter-hijack and hostage rescue operations, the SRGs (11, 12 and 13) were used to render logistical support to the SAGs during such operations and have been primarily deployed for guarding high-risk VVIPs.

Officials said the results of the first experiment at Pathankot have been satisfactory, with about 300 commandos commandos deployed to undertake door-to-door sanitisation at the station that was attacked on January 2.

NSG commanders said the force, has the least number of 15 such protectees under its cover and, after its request to not burden it further in this regard, the government has not given it any additional responsibility for over two years now. While one team of the 11th SRG and two units (12 and 13) are still tasked with security of high-risk dignitaries, commanders of the elite force foresee a time when even these units will be gradually pulled out of VVIP duties.

"Not in the very near future but NSG is on it way to go back to its original charter of being a specialist counter-terror and an exclusive commando force," the officials said.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 18 Feb 2016 14:13

Karan M wrote:We are basically using our SF as elite light infantry. The SF in typical insurgent uniforms above would be leveraged within J&K, but I wonder how long would it before we set up Delta/DevGru style multimission capability teams with embedded intel analysts, comms specialists, etc.


makes sense if we have access to the target area to consistently attack high value targets. like centcom and africom. in J&K since all the high level enemies are across the border its not feasible in that sense...any hits on lashkars there have to be outside of the conventional mil chain of command ...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 Feb 2016 12:54

Capt. Pawan -Troop Commander (10 Para SF)
RIP

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby member_28880 » 21 Feb 2016 13:21

To all pundits the casualties of IA is killing me right now, just two days back we have lost two son of soil, right now a young cap of 10th para of my age.Why this rate is so high 3 soldiers in a couple of days

Isn't the right time for the RRs and PARAs or CRPF deployed in valley should revisit there SOPs. What about introducing APCs in room/building intervention process.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 21 Feb 2016 13:37

SUDIPT wrote:To all pundits the casualties of IA is killing me right now, just two days back we have lost two son of soil, right now a young cap of 10th para of my age.Why this rate is so high 3 soldiers in a couple of days

Isn't the right time for the RRs and PARAs or CRPF deployed in valley should revisit there SOPs. What about introducing APCs in room/building intervention process.


Dear Concerned Citizen,

We must first review your appreciation of the "rate" being "so high". Please observe the data for past 15 years at this link:

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... alties.htm

In 2000, we lost 640 security personnel including policemen and armymen @ 1.5-2 per day.
In 2015, we lost 41 men.

We are not loosing the war in J&K as long as the Army is in control*. Confidence about the war in Delhi's JNU and like is much lower.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 21 Feb 2016 13:39

vaibhav.n wrote:Capt. Pawan -Troop Commander (10 Para SF)
RIP

Image


Thats delhi metro. On holidays back home i guess.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby member_28880 » 21 Feb 2016 14:15

Aditya G wrote:
Dear Concerned Citizen,

We must first review your appreciation of the "rate" being "so high". Please observe the data for past 15 years at this link:

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... alties.htm

In 2000, we lost 640 security personnel including policemen and armymen @ 1.5-2 per day.
In 2015, we lost 41 men.

We are not loosing the war in J&K as long as the Army is in control*. Confidence about the war in Delhi's JNU and like is much lower.


Thank a ton sir for this awesome data point. I m searching for something like this for many days, but cudn't get it, thanks again sir.

Sir, you don't worry abt those hand full of jar heads jholawalas, who got nothing but a waning socialist ideology from their ancestors. Those gonna dealt with a ruthless approach in coming days, good news is coming soon, we the bhakts can assure that.

But a wish from the heart is like " 1000s Khalid can rot in hell but 1 hanumanthapa should n't be martyr."

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jayaaren » 21 Feb 2016 17:07

Casualties might be lower but a disturbing trend is that we are losing more of our better trained people. Now you may put it down to increased op tempo for these better trained units but here again an increase in ops should not mean an increase in casualties. I would assume that MOUT & CQB training has got better with each op but again it pains to see a 22 year old promise bleed out in one part of our country while sitting in another part one can only cry at the colossal loss.
Also getting Para SF in to the thick of things seems to a new SOP or is it to gain op experience. The reports do not speak of any other army unit on scene

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jayaaren » 21 Feb 2016 17:21

Just read this http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 264404.ece

speaks volumes of the present situation in the country and how the Pawan Kumars out there teach all those agitating in JNU and Haryana what is means to belong to a country no questions asked.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Hari Seldon » 21 Feb 2016 18:47

>>Shiv AroorVerified account ‏@ShivAroor 24m24 minutes ago
Shattering loss in the Pampore terror encounter. Three Army para commandos killed in action today. Black day.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rohitvats » 21 Feb 2016 19:03

We lost another Captain from the Para SF. Most probably from 9 Para SF. Captain Tusshar Mahajan. 2 officers and a paratrooper.

And one more thing - Captain Pawan was from NDA. All NDA cadets get graduate degree from JNU. Only graduate degree given by JNU, BTW. So, there is some sly attempt to link this martyrs name with JNU to shore up the image of that vile place.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby member_23694 » 21 Feb 2016 20:31

Please correct me and would definitely like to be :

Terrorists enter building.

People residing there being saved by whom Police / Army / Para SF ?

Para SF get killed during saving people out or during encounter[in the initial phase of encounter] ?

What kind of equipment for SF should be inducted to save lives and close such encounters ASAP.
For precise identification of terrorists location within the building and neutralizing them from a safe distance ?

Understand situation will be messy there but pained with Soldier's and elite commandos getting killed
Last edited by member_23694 on 21 Feb 2016 21:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby member_28454 » 21 Feb 2016 20:58

In response to this article by the Hindu claiming Captain Pawan Kumar as a JNU alumni & Jat, I tried to post this response in the comments.
"The martyred Captain, fought and died for the country. This is unlike those agitators in JNU who want the company broken up. The captain might have had a degree from JNU but his heart was for India, like those lone groups of students, some with the ABVP, what are standing up for our country in a sea of anti-india hatred in places like JNU and are defamed by newspapers like yourself.
While the Jats agitating for reservations are agitating for their community, this brave Jat died for all the communities in India.
That is the difference.'

But it's does not register.
Can someone post this on my behalf?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 21 Feb 2016 22:34

In case anybody has missed the site of the battle:

It is a very large complex and it seems the militants are holed up in one of the buildings. Perfect for NSG - but i doubt they will be called in.

Image

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rampy » 21 Feb 2016 23:54

Ita 100 rooms from Ajit Doval

{ॐ}- "#EDI Is A Hundred Plus Room Building , Its Taking Time To Sanitise It:: The Operations Are On" ॥ॐ॥ {#Pampore}

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 22 Feb 2016 06:27

Shouldn't this have been a NSG op once it moved to within the building??

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Baikul » 22 Feb 2016 07:53

Under what circumstances does one lose 3 SF paras, including 2 captains, in one incident? Fake- surrender pig somehow blowing himself up? There is something different about what's going down here.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2016 07:58

^^
per TOI
1st captain - on entry
2nd captain - sweep on 3rd floor

I agree KaranM, NSG train for this and have better drills for room clearing probably. they also have more compact MP guns and flash grenades and probably wire cameras for peeking around corners and shields.

but I will add my usual rant on the lack of heavy GIGN/RAID/BRI/GIPN style ballistic face protection visor and hand held shields....our army SF certainly do not have it as its not their bread and butter and nor have i see nsg in action with such kit.

you can surely expect grenades from around corners and radio controlled powerful explosives to be planted on ingress points.

http://i.imgur.com/lFgRVSy.jpg

we need to get these made enmasse and distribute to all state police in great numbers to be pulled in and used as needed by whoever is chosen to go in.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby shaun » 22 Feb 2016 08:16

Ever time we have casualties we keep complaining lack of gadgets. Hmm , inevitable. That tactical shield is the need of the hour , do any of our operatives use this shield ?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Karan M » 22 Feb 2016 08:19

Losing 2 ParaSF officers to room CQB is unconscionable.

I completely agree Singha, that we need heavy breaching sort of kit.

This is France RAID shield.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CT8yQHxWoAA4Dh5.png

Of course, did we lose folks to grenades or bullets, dunno. But first report states we lost our 23 yr old Capt Pawan to a volley of bullets.
Only good part is lack of any media reports saying what worked and what didn't. 90% of our op data gets compromised that way.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sid » 22 Feb 2016 09:44

Maybe we all are looking at this scenario from a wrong angle.

These piglets have perfected the art of holding ground for a long time and are problably trained well in counter CQB tactics. They always move in, lay siege to an area, drag engagements for days, cause troop casualties and huge media attention. CQB anyways have the highest risk anyways. No amount of armor can guarantee 100% success.

All that means is that we are playing straight into their plans. It's a trap from every angle.

Whenever such situation arises, just lay waste to that enclosed area. Don't engage them in an area where they have advantage. They must have booby trapped and barricaded choke points in the building. Their running to this building could have been a planned move after ambush on CRPF folks.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby shaun » 22 Feb 2016 10:12

^^^^
That doesn't justify not having RAID type of shield , an operative holding that shield will not only be saved from bullets , he can even shield himself from splinters. and those piglets is trained but what make them "click" is their ever lasting greed for 72 virgins. The convoy protection system currently employed and troop carriers on tata buses and soft skin ashok-leylands need urgent reform.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2016 10:51

in paris when the french police raided the apartment where they holed out, even the terrorists were said to have a mobile shield-on-wheels inside which they used to bounce off the heavy gunfire being poured in once the door was broken.

around the world people are hard at work to further improve protection for these situations
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/ ... 32fde5453d

One project tucked away in the back of the factory is the SOCOM-funded Talus program, a conceptual bionic suit using ballistic body armor not too far off from Tony Stark’s, but in black. It would be for use by the soldiers who need to run through doors first and ask questions later.

we got to respect the fact that the people being sent in now are not soft targets in spray and pray mode....they are hardened convicts with atleast a year of hard training - our tactics and tools have to adapt like using unmanned drones, camera robots, better shields...just going in a fast and hard is not a guarantee of success anymore. we need to be prepared to lose buildings to save lives. amrikan abrams tanks were used to fire directly on such incidents in iraq.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2016 10:54

i have read these shields are also useful for pulling back wounded operators under fire, as in 3-4 people can link shields and block off a quadrant while others work behind them to extricate wounded.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 22 Feb 2016 12:54

While para sf will train for this type of operation, they cannot train and arm themselves exclusively for this situation. That is nsg's mabdate.

Instead of maintaining detts in south India, nsg should have maintain one in Srinagar. Even without a c-130 could have flown them in.

Please goi: raise the spl ops command

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 22 Feb 2016 13:17

^^ We already saw the ruckus created by many in the IA( esp retd folks) about NSG being involved in similar HRT scenario in Pathankot.

Maybe, they decided to let the IA SF handle this one to see if they could come upto scratch in such scenarios!

//JMT

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2016 13:25

Image

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Baikul » 22 Feb 2016 13:56

^^^ What I know from personal experience about combat would fill all the pages of a book with no pages, so take it from the arm chair field marshal (small caps) that I am. I remember reading of accounts of house to house fighting that the way some folks did it was to try and start from the top and go down, while other teams were also going up. This is something that I recalled when I saw the picture above, and by no means a commentary on current tactics.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 22 Feb 2016 14:20

^^^ What I know from personal experience about combat would fill all the pages of a book with no pages, so take it from the arm chair field marshal (small caps) that I am. I remember reading of accounts of house to house fighting that the way some folks did it was to try and start from the top and go down, while other teams were also going up. This is something that I recalled when I saw the picture above, and by no means a commentary on current tactics.


Ditto from myside. Dhruvs could have landed a small unit on the Roof who could have breeched through the windows. Seen our SF do that number of times in training pics.

Also are SF operations executed under Command of the Ground Commander (i.e Rules / Planning / Scope / ROE) or once SF is greenlit do they have sole Jurisdiction of how to achieve the outcome?


But again. Comes everything comes back down to an SOF command. Training / Tactics / Weapons / Mandate /

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gyan » 22 Feb 2016 14:26

Cross Post:

It seems from TV News clips that we have still not provided adequate routine equipment to our quick reaction teams like Bullet shields, Heavy BPJs, small arms optics, remote controlled vehicles, sniper rifles etc apart from my view that we need to deploy heavy anti material rifles like OFB vidhawansk and even 106mm RCL upgraded with laser range finders, optics etc for such encounters where terrorists gets entrenched. 9mm SMG or even AK versions are too punny for room to room fighting where other side is armed with AKs & grenades. We need heavier weapons like bull pub 7.62x51 or bullpub 9x45mm type of weapons.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2016 14:35

the roof looks quite risky to land being sloping with tin sheets. if there were adjoining buildings someone could perhaps try to sneak up with a huge explosive charge and blow a hole in the roof, but not here.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby VKumar » 22 Feb 2016 14:51

Why not blast the building with artillery? Is life of our soldiers less important than the building?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aaryan » 22 Feb 2016 15:19

VKumar wrote:Why not blast the building with artillery? Is life of our soldiers less important than the building?


Read somewhere that higher authorities ( most probably JK/Central govt) refused permission to blow the building.. Cant confirm it tho..

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sid » 22 Feb 2016 16:17

US also faced similar situation and casualties in Afgan region where most fatalities were from SOCOM or contractors who were former operators. IMHO even the great SEAL do not carry full on body armour worthy of a knight or a great shield.

Point is if the element of surprise is not on your side you will have casualties during first contact. The piglets come prepared specially for this situation, hence casualties are inevitable in room clearing ops.

Hence call the cavalry, call air support. Why engage where tactical advantage is already lost?

If the above statements are true, where higher up denied use of heavy weapons, then its a criminal conduct. Why interfere in a military op, maybe it was armies intent to blow up the place to begin with.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2016 16:22

this whole "using minimal force" circus has to end. if you want results for minimum casualties, maximum force is a must.

also sends a message to all parties.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ritesh » 22 Feb 2016 16:34

Sid wrote:Whenever such situation arises, just lay waste to that enclosed area. Don't engage them in an area where they have advantage. They must have booby trapped and barricaded choke points in the building. Their running to this building could have been a planned move after ambush on CRPF folks.
+1.
Would like to additionally add, clear the immediate vicinity of vegetation, foliage or small structures. Maintain vigil of the site, engage snipers from all possible directions and finally do intermittent firing from one side to another to tire out the piglets.

Do whatever is required to reduce casualty of our armed forces.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aaryan » 22 Feb 2016 17:08

Image
Image

Pigs killed in the operation..

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby JayS » 22 Feb 2016 17:10

So sad to see our soldiers getting martyred in such situations time and again. It seems casualties are inevitable in such situations when the rats hold the advantage. Can we not just gas them once the rats are trapped in one building rather than sending in troops to clear each and every room?? Not necessarily poisonous gas, but some suffocating or incapacitating gas at least.
Last edited by JayS on 22 Feb 2016 18:10, edited 1 time in total.


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